A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

Self-care, Mental Health, and COVID-19 - Interview with Jenny Heckman (Re-Release from S01E03)

December 28, 2021 Pastor Philosopher Season 2 Episode 12
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Self-care, Mental Health, and COVID-19 - Interview with Jenny Heckman (Re-Release from S01E03)
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

For New Year's, we're revisiting an episode from early in Season 1. We spoke with professional counselor and former pastor Jenny Heckman (MS, LPC, NCC) about dealing with anxiety and staying mentally healthy during the pandemic. We think her insights here are important and every bit as relevant as they were last year.

We'll be back on our regular schedule with new content on January 12.

The beer featured in this episode is Strawberry Rhubarb Wild Fruit Ale by New Glarus Brewing Company.

The beverage tasting is at 1:52. To skip to the main segment, go to 5:00.

You can find the transcript for this episode here.

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Cheers!

Kyle:

In this special New Year's episode of A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar, we're revisiting one of our earliest episodes. So we're bringing you back to season one, episode three, and our interview with our good friend, Jenny Heckman, who is a licensed professional counselor, and who we spoke to about all the mental stuff that we're going through with COVID-19. Unfortunately, more than a year later, we're still dealing with the same stuff. And so we thought this New Year's it might be good to revisit that conversation. Randy and I are taking the week off to spend some time with family. So we hope that you guys will enjoy revisiting this classic episode, and we'll see you back on our normal schedule in two weeks. Happy New Year.

Randy:

Welcome to A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar,

Kyle:

the podcast where we mix a sometimes weird but always delicious cocktail of theology, philosophy and spirituality.

Randy:

Well welcome friends to another episode of A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar. Today we are going to be speaking to a great friend of mine, who is a was a pastor, I see her still as a pastor, a colleague of mine, close friend, and professional counselor, a therapist, you're going to find no matter how you've experienced this year, with all the trauma involved in all the chaos, all the all the things, this episode is going to hit you in some way shape or form at some points. I guarantee you just listen long enough in what Jenny brings is going to resonate with your story. So I'm excited about it. But first, before we get to Jenny, Kyle, we need to hear about what we're drinking today because we obviously are in this proverbial bar. So what are we drinking today, Kyle?

Kyle:

Today, I have for you guys a fruited ale from New Glarus Brewing Company. This one is one of a line of fruit and ales that they do this one is the most hyped most sought after of their fruited ales. This one strawberry rhubarb, which is a very Wisconsin thing. I'm from Kentucky. I had no idea what rhubarb was before I moved to Wisconsin, but like every Wisconsin grandmother makes strawberry rhubarb pie I found out and it's delicious. Incredible. So somehow New Glarus has figured out how to bottle that flavor and that's what we're drinking here. New Glarus. Interestingly, they only distributed Wisconsin so their beer is widely and easily available everywhere in Wisconsin, but nowhere outside of Wisconsin so everybody that comes to visit wants this so they make spotted cow if you're familiar with that, everybody outside of Wisconsin loves spotted cow. But this is my favorite New Glarus brew.

Randy:

Another reason to come to visit Wisconsin.

Elliot:

Yeah, it's the color of cranberry juice. I think it's a close. It's a deep red, I almost have to hold it to the light to see through it. So Kyle, in my limited co drinking experience with you. It seems you have a propensity to fruity beers is that, is that true, or is this just coincidence?

Kyle:

That's definitely true, especially in the summertime. So we're launching this podcast in the summertime and that's why we're drinking all this heavily fruited stuff. When it gets colder. We're gonna see a lot more traditional ales and stouts and stuff like that.

Randy:

All right, well, cheers. Wow.

Elliot:

It's good the strawberry definitely hits first, strawberry, strawberry rhubarb.

Randy:

For me, it's like, it's got that bright effervescence, which I really like. It's got the tartness right away. But on the back of my tongue, I get this. Am I crazy? Or do I get this barney? Almost like not Barney, the purple dinosaur but barn like flavors and then almost almost like stinky cheese on the back of my tongue.

Elliot:

That's probably the rhubarb, isn't it, because it's kind of got that pungent, bitter flavor. Is it not that?

Randy:

Yeah, I think bitter is right, yep.

Elliot:

Yeah, it's, it balances really well.

Randy:

Yeah, it's like if you're eating fruit in a barn. Some funk in it.

Kyle:

Yeah. In rural Wisconsin.

Elliot:

Losing my appetite Yeah.

Kyle:

You're basically describing their their brewery setting. Like if you go visit them that that's what you're gonna see. The nearest thing is a barn in the field adjacent to their brewery.

Randy:

This tastes like New Glarus. Awesome so that you said this is sought after this, I'm assuming like is only released once a year?

Kyle:

Once, maybe twice a year, I think something like that. But you, they don't announce it. Maybe on their Instagram. They might put up a post as it's coming out. So you have to look for it and then know where to find it and kind of get a little bit lucky.

Randy:

Well, thanks for sharing.

Elliot:

Yeah, thanks for bringing it in.

Randy:

New Glarus Strawberry Rhubarb. Highly recommended.

Kyle:

Cheers. So our guest today is Jenny Heckman. Jenny used to be pastor at Brew City Church alongside Randy Knight. So she was my pastor for several years. And now she is in full time therapy, your therapist, what's the official title there? What do you got a lot of letters behind your name? So how do you how do you describe yourself?

Jenny:

The official title is a licensed professional counselor.

Kyle:

Okay.

Jenny:

So do psychotherapy with individuals, families, couples.

Kyle:

Great. And we wanted to have Jenny on the podcast, mostly because we're in this really weird time with COVID-19, and a bunch of other stuff going on in our country. And there's a great deal of anxiety. And sometimes that anxiety borders on outright panic. And Jenny is especially suited to help us figure out how to deal with that sort of thing. So we're really excited to have Jenny on the podcast today. Jenny, we like to ask our guests what they're drinking, since that's part of the theme of our podcast. So what are you drinking?

Jenny:

I am drinking a lovely, chilled Pinot Grigio.

Kyle:

Nice. Chilled to, what...

Jenny:

It's called Josh. I don't I couldn't tell you the temperature, I just know that it's nice and chill.

Kyle:

My wife and I were members of a wine club for a while. So we got kind of nerdy about it. And they say it should be around 50 degrees or so. But I don't know if that's real.

Randy:

Of course you got nerdy about it Kyle. So Jenny, Hello, good to see you. Good to see you on the computer screen that is in this COVID time, something you can feel in our world that's been happening in our nation more and more and more just growing upon itself exponentially is this polarization, the divide in our country, ideologically, racially, gender, I mean, you just you name it. And there's people are feels like people in our world are spinning apart further and further, almost like a physics experiment. And this COVID pandemic, seems to have accentuated that. And really even you know, in a moment where maybe we could even see our, our culture or society come together a little bit more, we found it, I found it just spinning even more out of control. And being even more polarized being even more separated, isolated, bitter, you name it, as someone whose Your job is to notice human behavior and to assess human behavior and patterns in human behavior. Now, that's an individual basis, more group basis, but as a collective, I'm sure, you know, just because of who you are, and know that you, you observe cultural movements and societal norms, and how they're stretching and all that stuff. So what would you say from your professional perspective? What if What have been some observations about what this pandemic is doing to our culture and society as a whole?

Jenny:

I've told people from the beginning of this and I would definitely still say this is congruent with where I'm at that I still personally am learning a tremendous amount. So I can I can give you some observations, but really want to make it clear that these aren't any foregone conclusions and, you know, holding loosely to hypotheses that I have about about this. But as I was really reflecting on on this question, the one thing that has become apparent to me from the beginning, is that this pandemic has either been an invitation for people to be on an accelerated course of transformation. And it's been absolutely beautiful to watch. I've seen clients and families and couples, get things figured out and reconciled in in very salient and quite quick and profound ways. Almost like it's had people have to evaluate quickly, what's what's most important, and how are we going to make this work. So that's a trend that I've seen from from the beginning. On the opposite end of the continuum. I've also seen that this pandemic has given people the opportunity to choose a very, very different path. dehumanizing, dehumanizing in the way they're treating their bodies during this time. dehumanizing in the way they are treating family members, their spouses, and the way that they are interacting and treating their friends, extended family members, community members and and even as they're starting to develop, not starting to, but really reinforced narratives that they've held for a long time about the other. Whether it's the other political party race. So what's been really interesting to me is because normally I always like to see, see a middle ground, but I have definitely seen it, people are falling into two different areas. And that's either an accelerated growth course of transformation, or a very rapid decline towards more dehumanization.

Randy:

Now, when you, as you observe this dehumanization, that's, I wasn't expecting that super interesting, but it makes a lot of sense as you talk your way through it. Why do you think this pandemic in particular, is kind of the root for that dehumanization? What do you have you have you connected those dots? Or is that still something you're...

Jenny:

There's some dots that are there's some dots that are being connected. And I also really want to give credit where credit is due, I have some wonderful mentors and guides of my own, that I reflect on these things as well. And so much of this, what I'm going to say comes out of some dialogue there. But this is definitely something I've been reflecting a lot. And in particular, as it relates to those of us who live in the United States. And one of the conclusions that I've come to is that I think part of the reason, in particular for some of the just bad behavior and dehumanizing behavior that that we're seeing that I'm seeing is that as Americans, we have an extremely dysfunctional belief about rights and freedom, that there are what I'm seeing is that we're the people who are struggling the most cope are people who believe that we should have unlimited rights, unlimited freedoms. And of course, you know, as as people who are Christian and orientation, we know by design, that freedom has limits, because unlimited freedom, unlimited rights, do not lead to human flourishing, but that that so far is one of the dots of them connecting in particular in the United States, that this has very much challenged the paradigm many Americans have about an entitlement to unlimited freedom, unlimited rights.

Kyle:

So it's interesting that when you you framed it as the people that are having the hardest time coping, are the people who view it that way. So it's, it's not just that they have an opinion that we disagree with, it's actually having psychological effects that are making their lives worse, from their perspective. Is that right?

Jenny:

Yes. And I, a colleague of mine asked me the other day, we will probably get to this a little bit later. But the types of issues that I'm seeing coming my way and dealing with and I'm sure that I'm that other therapists would would share the same, the same thing. They're quite different. And so for people who have a really rigid paradigm about anything, could be a rigid paradigm about rights, about freedom, rigid paradigms, about how things ought to be how God should work, what should go my way, their paradigms are way too constricted, to be able to contain reality. And whenever our paradigms are too small, and constricted to to be able to deal with, in whole reality, we will not function well.

Randy:

Can you relate that journey to instantly I go to religion and Christianity and faith journeys, and that just sounds so familiar. And again, I'm so glad to have your perspective, the perspective of someone who studied digs down deep into the human psyche and brain and emotions and all that stuff. This this idea of someone being having such a rigid worldview and theology and concept of who and what God is, that sounds like you're saying, it's just fodder for forest fire in your faith journey?

Jenny:

Well, your your faith journey and and your psychological journey too.

Randy:

Okay, can you explain that?

Jenny:

Yeah. And I'm gonna say some things that would are going to be they might be shocking some people and I don't mean any, any disrespect to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I also believe that there are some things that we just can't stay silent on. So I'm going to give some specific examples that certainly won't reach any type of confidentiality because I'm hearing them so often. But for instance, one very rigid paradigm I'm hearing in my clients who embrace a more conservative Christian paradigm and viewpoint is well, why do we need to follow the CDC recommendation? If every single one of our days are numbered? It doesn't matter. If we're gonna die we're gonna die. If my fellow my neighbor down the street if his day These are numbered. What does it matter? Well, that that would be that would be an example of that. Another one, another one that I'm hearing would be about the interpretation that God is punishing. God is punishing us for a specific sin or set of sins. And don't get me wrong. I think there's, there's some amazing transformation that we all need in this. But that's so very different than keeping it in this tight paradigm that correlates God is doing a because of be, though, I mean, those would be those would be the two big ones. And I'm sure I could come up with many more. But the bit I think the big thing overall, is that somehow, this is so horrible. We don't deserve this. This is hindering my freedom messing up with my life. And somehow we got to hustle and scramble our way out of this. So that's another really narrow paradigm that just does not leave room for things that go awry. Yeah.

Randy:

Yeah, my 11 year old boy yesterday, just made the statement that maybe maybe COVID-19 is happening because of racism and God's punishing us. Well, I like what you're thinking, because if God's going to punish us for anything, it'd be something like racism. But let's talk about how God works. So maybe that's that's kind of an 11 year old theological worldview. Now, I said the offensive thing so you can, I'll take the heat off of you Jenny.

Kyle:

So I'm curious, before we leave this topic, what sorts of specific psychological harms do you see associated with that kind of rigid belief structure? Whether it's religious or not?

Jenny:

Oh, that's such a good question. What I think where the psychological harm is, it's, it's often I mean, don't get me wrong, that the person who holds the paradigm, most of the time him or herself that they are suffering internally, because it's hard not to be able to deal with reality. In less you live in a tight paradigm. But what I'm seeing more and more is that they're becoming extremely lonely people, because nobody wants to be around them. People are losing trust, people are losing respect. They're in conflict with their kids, with their spouses, with family members with members in the community. And so there's now going to be this, this loneliness, as well. But But in particular, when it comes to the paradigm of we should never suffer, or God should be protecting us from these types of things. What I'm really seeing is people, one client said it best she said, my ability to function has come to a grinding halt. My ability to function has come to a grinding halt. When our paradigms are that narrow, we will not be able to flex and adapt and adjust to loss.

Randy:

Yep. I wonder how many people are identifying with that statement that you're one of your clients just said right now. So, Jenny, when we think about anxiety, anxiety, which leads to is there on the, on the continuum of you know, as you're you're assessing, and diagnosing anxiety, and then Kyle mentioned panic in the, you know, in the beginning of our time together, where, how closely are those related? Is there stops along the way that, or is panic feed into anxiety, the other way around? How do those two things have a relationship with one another psychologically?

Jenny:

Well, they're mainly I mean, both both of those concepts, there's the panic is more physiological anxiety is a combination of both. But there there actually is a distinction between anxiety and between panic, anxiety runs along a long continuum. Panic does not run along a continuum at all, panic is panic, it is felt intensely, it distorts reality. It sets people up to make bad decisions, because it's based on distortions where anxiety on the continuum, there's a level of anxiety that we all need to function, there are higher levels of anxiety that will keep us physically depleted, mentally depleted, and a lot of physical symptoms as well. But that's not the same thing as, as panic.

Randy:

And how have you seen that in your practice in the last three, four months during the pandemic? Have you seen that kind of grow? I would assume, right?

Jenny:

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, Randy, because actually, I have been reflecting on this a lot. What's when, in some ways interesting and sort of humorous, is that my clients who already came into this pandemic with diagnoses like OCD, generalized anxiety, panic disorder, they have fared very well. And part of it is because they feel so Normal, everybody's anxious. For my clients who have OCD, they're so thrilled that people are washing their hands. I mean, it's truly I mean, it's been, I really would have expected something very different. So but what I am seeing is actually a different kind of anxiety. And we wouldn't necessarily term it anxiety. And if you if I if you don't mind me just taking it's not going to be a sermon, I promise you that. But there's there's three things, there's really three things that have anxiety is features, but they're quite distinct. And they're quite unique to the pandemic. And and situations like this. One is something that Dr. Pauline Bas, B O S S, has identified as ambiguous loss. And that is the trauma of loss without resolution. And that's exactly what every single one of us is facing right now. There's loss, but there is no resolution. We don't have a sense yet of where all this is going and what it's going to look like. And in even by way of like, some small, simple examples, you know, the other day I drove past Miller Park, and there was just this pain in my gut of like, man, do I ever miss hanging out with my husband at Brewer games? And do I ever feel bad for my kids, that they don't get to experience it? I mean, and I know, this is like, first world problems. But the reality is, there are so many losses within the big loss. But there is not yet any resolution. And that for people, what the research is finding is that ambiguous loss, without the definition, is the the thing that's impacting people the most, so it feels like anxiety, but it's a little bit different. The second thing that has come out in the research, so far about the pandemic is a term that we call immobilization. And that's the sense that we're really limited and constricted right now, which which we are not completely but much more than what we're used to. were without power to change many things. And people have the feeling of of being trapped. And typically speaking, I think the jury's still out whether or not they should fall right now into a category of trauma or pre trauma, but it doesn't matter. People are experiencing the anxiety around immobilization, how do I live and move and find meaning and purpose and outlets in a very constricted, limited environment, and then certainly people who've been impacted financially as well, where there isn't an end in sight, that would be another way that plays out. And then I'd say the final way as well how anxiety looks different, is just the constant adaptation to changing conditions. You know, you guys have probably heard, I think people are so sick of the word unprecedented. But I think also, we've heard the word pivoting a lot. But we're pivoting because we have two things are changing with this virus, almost every 24 hours. Now, what we thought we knew about this virus at the beginning, are different. And I think even six months down the road, but things are constantly adapting and changing. And human beings aren't wired to have to flex and adapt and pivot that rapidly for this long of a time. We'll all do it. And we'll all make it through. But it always comes at a cost. And I'm feeling that too. So it's just a different type of anxiety.

Randy:

How are you feeling that Jenny?

Jenny:

Well, I mean, number one, when this thing started, first of all having to make decisions about how long do you stay in person, and then adapting to telebehavioral health, which wasn't in and of itself, difficult. But then what was difficult is navigating all the different platforms, figuring out what's HIPAA compliant, dealing with tech issues, every client, and then sitting in front of a screen where I also had to see myself and the client, you know, for seven, eight hours a day, five days a week, and then having to pivot back when it was time to start seeing critical patients and then pivoting again, when therapists were required to have informed consent and, you know, liability issues and all those kinds of things. And now most of them are going to have to pivot again, as the numbers grow as we head back into flu season. I mean, that's just a little snippet. And that's just on the professional and on the personal end, with family with kids, all that kind of thing. You know, it's that's there, too. I'm sure you guys have all experienced that as well.

Randy:

Yeah. Yeah. Some of the most intense for me is the difference in opinion about the pandemic, about the importance of it about the seriousness of it about the reality about men asks about, you know, all that stuff. That's, it's almost, it's like experiencing whiplash on a daily basis, trying to hold and process so many people's opinions and, you know, both as a pastor than as a family member, and I mean, uncles, aunts, sisters, brothers in law, you know, all that stuff.

Jenny:

It's a lot of holding.

Randy:

Oh man, holy cow. Yeah.

Kyle:

So Jenny, you mentioned trauma a few minutes ago. Do you think that COVID itself will cause an uptick in cases of PTSD? Or is that a different kind of trauma?

Jenny:

That's a good question. It's going to be dependent on the individual, as a lot of PTSD is, and by the way, just just to make it really clear, when when a person comes out of something like this with post traumatic stress, symptoms or disorder, that doesn't mean that they're weaker in character, or even, you know, more fragile, it all depends. It all depends on what their circumstances were going into that and this in this specific impact as a result of it. So I think people are all going to be impacted. But not everyone is going to come come out of this with the post traumatic stress symptoms or disorder. People have a lot of reflecting to do, people will hopefully be reordering their lives, I think other people are going to, you know, become very, very rigid and tightly controlled. Everyone will be impacted, but not everyone will be traumatized.

Randy:

Yep. I wonder, you know, because PTSD is a that's, that's a real and a strong thing. But I'm remembering from my journey, you guys all know. But for listeners, I don't know, five, six years ago, I had a what's called a traumatic brain injury. And I was on vacation with my wife in California, and all of a sudden felt like my head was gonna explode. And long story short, I had a subdural hematoma with a midline shift, which just meant my brain was bleeding, and it shoved my brain over there was enough blood that it moved my brain. So eventually, after two weeks, I had a couple of holes drilled in my head, had brain surgery, was in California, three weeks longer than I thought it would. And then came home and had a month recovery. And everybody would ask me after that first six months to a year, how are you doing? How's your health, and it was always fine. It got, it got better. After surgery, I just felt like a real person. Again, it was great. But what wasn't fine was processing the trauma. I didn't know it at the time until I talked to you and two other friends who, who are professionals. And I remember you saying, Jenny, why would I came to you, I was like, This is what I'm doing. Every night after my family goes to bed, I will take a journey back to Southern California. And I'll go to see the places that we went to. And I'll go in, I'll look at my texts. Throughout that whole time, I'll go in Sara's phone, and I'll look at my wife's texts. During that time, I look at our Facebook feeds and watch how everybody was frantic and praying. And I just had to relive it over and over and over again for six to 12 months, really. And I remember you saying you're having to fit that into your story now. And me and Sarah together had to do that we would live relive it over and over again. I wonder two things. One, could you talk about that reality a little bit? Because I I'm guessing that there's a lot of people who are listening who maybe are healthcare workers, and are gonna have to do the tech thing or who had COVID-19 in their world was was disrupted for months on end. And they're still feeling the effects of it in that processing, and bring that trauma into their person. Can you just talk to us about that process Jenny?

Jenny:

Yes. The thing, the thing about trauma is that it and I heard a lecture I cannot remember his name was at Marquette, oh boy, maybe nine years ago. And what he said is that these traumas, it dislocates people, at almost level, every level of their personhood, how they view self, how they view the other how they view the safety of the world, how they view their competency, you name it, I could go on and on. So the the process is people have to be able to they have to be able to tell the story, and go back and visit different pieces of it make sense of it, but but then ultimately integrate it into their story that this actually happened to me. I think the thing that really messes with people is that wow, this happened to me. This is happening to me, this is happening to us. This is not somewhere off in another continent. That's what people I think, I think we've definitely adjusted for the most part that this is happening to us. We'll have some more adjustment to make. But yeah, being able to wrap our heads around, this happened. Here's how it impacted me. And here's how we made it through what was provided to us. Those are all necessary thing. is to get the trauma resolved. In addition to that immobilization, that term I mentioned earlier is part and parcel of trauma, or pre traumatic things. And so one of the things we also know is that wherever we can empower people to become mobile, again, in their emotions, moving their bodies, being able to connect in relationships, even in obviously, in a socially distance way, all those things to empower people is is equally important as well.

Randy:

This episode, I think, is going to drive, your waiting list might grow, Jenny, and a lot of people are going to realize I need some, I need some counseling.

Jenny:

Well, I wanna tell you we are really great, I'm, we're really blessed. There are so many good, good therapists. Lots of good people.

Kyle:

So, Jenny, I'm curious what you think about this. It seems like, and maybe this is a difference in the way that the normal populace uses the word anxiety versus the way that therapists like yourself use the word anxiety, but I got into kind of a little mini argument slash conversation with somebody on social media at the beginning of all of this. And I was suggesting that, that there's a sense of appropriate anxiety. I see a lot on social media of the sort of thing you were describing a little while ago, where there are people who just aren't anxious enough about this, or at least that's the way that I would describe it. They don't take it seriously enough. They don't think it's much of a threat, or they write it off because of some kind of belief structure that explains it away for them. So is there a sense of healthy anxiety? Is that a thing? Or would, would a therapist describe that differently?

Jenny:

Oh, without a doubt. I don't know that I would use, I don't know that I would use the word anxiety, I think I would use fear. And what we know is that we do need to have, we need to have what I would call accurate fear, fear that is actually congruent with the reality of a situation. Or we will get ourselves into danger, and other people into danger. So there is a healthy sense of fear. Yeah, and, and anxiety. And I say more if we want to use that I use a phrase a lot kind of a sober awareness that this is a real deal. A sober awareness that allows me to allows us to be able to not just protect self, but really also protect the other. We need that now. I think what's getting really tricky for people, one of the reasons I'm finding people are not paying attention to the science, okay? I mean, there's just some really good science out about COVID. The good science that I've read is not fear based. It is a factual but sober awareness. Here's what we know right now, about this virus. And if we do these things, we can mitigate the effects of this virus. What I'm finding is becoming very confusing for people is that and I want to be careful here, I will not villainize the media, and I am not villainizing any one politician. But because COVID is politicized. The media and politics use fear run amok to manipulate people. And so people are having a very difficult time, often discerning what is sober awareness, based on good science and what's real and true. And what is fear run amok, used to manipulate and for someone else's gain. And so I'm finding that some people have completely tuned out science because they believe this is all a political maneuver.

Randy:

Yep. So Jenny, going off of that idea of sober awareness, and then on the other side, fear run amok. I've heard it said, and I'm just interested in to hear your perspective. I've heard that negativity, fear, anger, all that stuff, sticks to our, to our consciousness to our brains, like, like Velcro, right? And that good, beautiful, hopeful, wonderful things slide off like Teflon that like you actually have to work to actually amplify and keep those good thoughts and things. I was just talking to my son this today, we were in the park and he talks you mentioned that he remembers so many of his bad dreams, and very few of his good dreams. And that was when I was processing with him that Yep, the bad stuff actually sticks a little bit more. Is that true physiologically, or talk me through that.

Jenny:

Yeah, it does seem that the brain appears to recall the bad and what didn't go well more than the good. Now, I think there's some people by personality and wiring that they are just gifted in really being able to connect with the good. So we being intentional about connecting with still want to good and untouched by bad is, is very, very important. I'm also though honestly I'm I myself in my own journey in this last year have really had to renegotiate my relationship with anger. And I have so appreciated Richard roars writing on anger, that anger is actually if we bring it into the presence of the gaze of Christ, that it is actually a pathway to something that is actually very pure and good. Anger is one of the most purifying emotions there are. Sometimes I think when we get concerned about anger, and I do as well, what we're really saying is we're more concerned about contempt. And that's very different than anger. Anger tends to be quite pure and purifying. Contempt is something very, very different. That tends to look down on other people minimizes other people demeans other people. But anger actually is a necessary emotion, for coping, and also for creating change. To go back to your original question, the reality is yes, we do have to be a little more intentional about immersing ourself in the good, not just thinking about it, but tasting it, touching it, seeing it, being in it.

Randy:

You said earlier connecting with the good.

Jenny:

Yeah.

Randy:

I like that. Yeah.

Kyle:

Yeah. This seems super relevant to me because simultaneously with the whole COVID thing and all of the psychological stuff that's causing, in the United States and kind of globally, we're going through this intense anger, rage over white supremacy and racism and the fact that beliefs police officers can't seem to stop killing black people. So I think it's highly relevant to the situation we're in because we're having all these issues compounded simultaneously, and all these different emotions flowing through us about different things. There's actually a there's a whole literature of philosophy of race, and various critical race theorists who talk a great deal about rage and anger as a necessary tool for political change.

Randy:

As you, as you talk, Kyle, I've got, well, I'd be interested in your take on this Jenny. I, watching, let's just take the George Floyd video, for example, right? You could put a million names in there, but let's just take the George Floyd video. people's response to that video has been fascinating to me. And fascinating. I mean, I don't mean, here's what I mean, it seems like adults are more the way they see that is through the filter of whatever their political ideology is, whatever their upbringing was, whatever, you know, feeling like there's so much of a filter when they're watching it, that I almost don't trust it. What I trusted was watching my 13 year old girl be disrupted for two days after she allowed her to watch the video. And she couldn't stop. She was crying on and off for about a day and a half after she watched the video in the the evil, the pure evil in it was so jarring to her she didn't have any of these filters. She didn't have any ideology stuffed upon her. She just watched a video where she saw somebody being murdered. And it was just a really easy call for her. Can you speak to this, these filters that, that distort reality, as we're seeing real things happen in real time?

Jenny:

Yeah, it goes right back to what I said about, about the meaning and purpose of narrow paradigms. If, if I, if I can look at that video and interpret it through a lens of my political beliefs, then I don't have to grapple with the problem of evil, don't have to get near to the trauma. I can protect myself from being disrupted.

Randy:

So it's, there's a self protection facet to it.

Jenny:

Very much. And I'll tell you, I will never enable dehumanizing behavior. But I have come to the conclusion that most dehumanizing behavior started very--how can I put this--it started with a need to self protect. And it doesn't make it any better. Doesn't, I'm not saying it's good. But with compassion, I will say that, that there's a path to dehumanizing behavior that often starts with somebody who internally is absolutely unable to have a roomy enough interior world to handle the whole of reality. And so we amputate it.

Randy:

Yep. Man. So Jenny, 2020. I mean, it's gonna go down in history books. Pretend that me, Kyle, Elliot, and all our listeners are sitting on your couch, your proverbial couch. And you're gonna tell us how to get through a year like 2020, which, obviously, is gonna have more chaos to it, even if we don't have anything new introduced, which I'd be shocked if that didn't happen. But can you give us a little little therapy session on how to, how to walk through a year, a time, a season of life like this that seems so chaotic and out of control? How do we hold all that? How do we, how do we deal with it?

Jenny:

Yeah, well, I, you know, before, I was reminded of this last week, too, that before psychology, and in particular, the practice of counseling was ever a concept, ever a thing, there was something else that human beings have always had available to them. And I'm going to use the language of spiritual direction. And this is where I've been personally immersing myself in just in my own meditation, study reflection. So bottom line is there's only one way we're going to get through it, really at the core. And that is going to be we're either going to embrace a theology of sufficiency, or we're going to live in a mindset of scarcity.

Randy:

Unpack that for us a bit.

Jenny:

Yeah, theology of sufficiency versus a mindset of scarcity. I, when all this began, I felt led to be stay almost this entire time in the Sermon on the Mount, and doing study on it. And in particular, in Matthew 625, through 34. About why do you worry about your life, Look at the birds of the air, Look at the lilies of the field, I really came, I came into an understanding through some helpful commentators, where the commentator was basically saying, Jesus was not saying like live in denial, live with your head in the clouds. Jesus was actually in a culture that was poor, the rich rolled their will and there wasn't enough. And honestly, for many of the same reasons, we in our culture, are experiencing scarcity as well, or certain populations are experiencing scarcity. So when Jesus was saying, Look at the birds of the year and look at the lilies of the field, he's really saying, Do not focus your attention on the scarcity that's caused by greed and anger and dehumanizing behavior, focus on the provision of the Father the sufficiency that's there, in all conditions and all circumstances, that's where you're going to have your that's where you're going to have your peace. Okay. And then. So I think that that is one of the biggest ones. The other thing as I was watching bits and pieces of George Floyd's funeral, is the practice and concept of black joy. I don't know if you saw that. But what I would say, if you guys were sitting on my couch, a way to get through it, is the Jesus way. And I would call that subversive coping, where we practice joy in the midst of evil. And we look at interest sufficiency. And we're very careful about staying too attuned to the crazy messages about scarcity and about toilet paper about cleaning supplies. I could go on and on and on. Okay. But we live in what what we're designed to live in, and that is enjoy, and in trusting insufficiency of God. And that may sound very overly simplistic, but I would say that is really at the core of easing that anxiety, the panic, that we know this does not have the final say, and we really shouldn't be surprised. This is the groaning of creation. And I'm not minimizing what is going on. And I'm not saying we should put our head in the sand. However, if we don't immerse ourselves in what is still good, and still available as good, always has been always will be, we will not come through this well.

Randy:

Yep. It's so good, Jenny.

Jenny:

Subversive coping. That's my new term.

Randy:

I love it.

Kyle:

Sounds like a book title.

Randy:

It sure does.

Jenny:

How about that. If you write a book with that title, I hope...

Kyle:

I'm thinking you write that book.

Jenny:

...you will write a dedication to me.

Randy:

Subversive coping, it's good.

Jenny:

That's the only, that's as far as they could ever get, by the way, with a book, is the title.

Kyle:

So I'm curious if, because you're a pastor, or used to be a pastor, in addition to being a therapist, and you were just sort of leaning into a little bit of that just now. So do you think, as a Christian, and as a former pastor, is there any special advice for how Christians specifically might be able to do good in the world during all of this, and also stay psychologically healthy while doing it? Some of what you just said kind of goes into that a little bit. But a lot of what you said is kind of universal to everybody. So, let me reframe the question here, is, does Christianity, in your view, offer anything specific and unique or different for the believer that you couldn't get as a secular person?

Jenny:

Yes, and I, I'd say two things. One is we, we can walk with responsibility and sober awareness, while still being free. You know, because we know because of Christ, and His His life, His death, His resurrection, and His ascension, all four of those are important. We know that the reign of Christ, the kingdom of God, is here, not in all of its fullness. And so we take seriously then what what Paul says, in Romans, that nothing can separate us from that reality. I mean, go through that list of nothing, in heaven on earth, above or below, things present, past future, that nothing in us outside of us can separate us from, from that love. And from that reality, that the reign of Christ, the presence of Christ, the kingdom of Christ is here. So that's where we get grounded and anchored. But then the second thing is, I think so often I do, I have to remind myself of this daily, and be reminded of it is that we are little Christ's, Jesus was the one true human. And we are made in the image of God to be the people who carry not only the good news, but are reflective, that in fact, new creation is here. We're the carriers of hope. And so the hope there is that we, we live out our, our, our human or our Christian vocation, in the midst of a pandemic.

Randy:

Yep. I love that. I, the way I've been, the way I've framed that to Brew City, to our congregation, your former congregation, Jenny, has been to say, this is, we are in the birth pains of new creation, that this reality is giving birth to another more beautiful full one called new creation, the kingdom of God in all its fullness and goodness. And birthing is painful. And it's traumatic. And it's, it's incredibly difficult and gorian in and messy. And it feels like that's what we're in right now. And that's not to minimize anybody's experience during this crazy, chaotic time. But birth pains of new creation helps me see it in a bigger way than just this particular moment, you know. So, Jenny, this is now getting personal, because I'll just tell you my my experience with with COVID. You know, I could tell you, almost day by day, that week when this hit, right, I was with a group of pastors on Wednesday, and we were all kind of like, hey, is this real? What are you guys doing anything? Yeah, we're not gonna have people shake hands. You know, that was the extent of it. And I remember one of our elders was like, No hugging, get out of my face with that, you know, it was at that point. Yeah, that was Wednesday, Thursday, the Memphis Grizzlies player test rodeo bear tested positive for COVID in the NBA season was shut down. Then the next day Friday was, you know, all of us were going crazy. I mean, it was just on a day by day basis. And I was just as all of us were, I was just responding in moment by moment. You know, how do we okay, we're not going to meet. It's not only that we're not going to shake hands and hug on Sunday. We're not going to meet on Sunday. We're going to do this online. And now we got to pivot. What do we got to do? You know, Elliot was part of so much of that. And I felt like I was rolling with the punches pretty well. I felt like I was not stressed or anxious about it. I felt like I was doing like, just responding well, in the moment, feeling good about it, not feeling not staying up at night. But then I've told you about this in the past where I've had these what you call psychosomatic pains were at different points in the last three to five years, I'll get recurring tightness in my chest, that freaks me out that I'm gonna die soon, or a pain in a cramp from my chest up to the base of my neck of my jaw. And that happens numerous times a day, and I don't tell anyone about it, because I'm freaked out about it. I don't know what to do with it. And all of a sudden, I'll tell someone like you or my spiritual director, or whoever. And it starts going away slowly, but I had to deal with it for months because I didn't tell anybody that started happening again to me, it was gone. I went on sabbatical last summer went away. And all of a sudden, late March, early April, this pain in my, in my chest going up to my neck started happening again. And I was just so dang pissed off. I was just like, I'm feeling good, I'm handling this, well, why is this happening? And I kept dealing with it, kept dealing with it until I told my spiritual director and then kind of went away. What, I want to know about that process within me and people like me, why did that happen? Why does it go away when you start talking about it? What's the deal with that?

Jenny:

It's normal, normal and expected. There's a term that I think will be really helpful to you and to anybody else experiencing this. And I really can empathize with you. I mean, and by the way, anxiety, and stress, we experience it in the body, probably even more so than we experience it in our emotions and our psyche. It's both places, we're embodied creatures, but anxiety is very physiological. But there's a term called, called allostatic load A L L O S T A T I C, allostatic load, which means that there's a type of load that is so high for so long, that the body adapts. So we always would think, oh, the body is very homeostatic. That's the way God made it, it'll get back to normal, what a wonderful thing. But what we know is that there are certain types of loads over a period of time that the body is actually not designed to ever adapt to, because it would be maladaptive. And so at a certain time, the body will start sending off signals like tightness of chest, headaches, tensions, decreased immune system, you know, you name it, there's all kinds of things, aches and pains. And that just is our body's way of saying, I've done this long enough. And I need to get a little bit of reprieve. And so the way that I for myself and for the people I work with that I would say is we kind of have to make friends with that, that we can say this is a real gift actually, that my body is giving me these signals, and nothing to be alarmed here. There's, this is what a body does. We know from research that if we can, we can talk to ourselves that way, that the stress symptoms decrease. But honestly, the shame about them is what really is messing with people, that somehow we should be above the human experience, or that Randy Knie, lead pastor of Brew City, who's leading people and can cope with things doesn't get these, we're all subject to the human experience, which is why embracing that talking about it, and then doing things to really take care of our body, get margin, is real important. But I'm right there with you.

Randy:

Yep. I feel like you need to bill me after this episode.

Jenny:

All Free. Free for all of you. I mean, not all on the podcast.

Randy:

Yep. So Jenny, that's, that's me and my process. Have you, has your anxiety levels personally, like what, what has been your, you know, now, if you were sitting down with someone, and saying, this has been my experience during this time, how would you describe that?

Jenny:

Oh, boy, I'm with you. Like at the beginning, I felt like I was handling this like a trooper. Leading interns through it, you know, family through it, all that. But at the time, it felt like maybe one long snow day. But the more this went on, and after the first day for at home expired, and we went into another one. And now we're looking at these numbers that we're looking at. And you know, what just happened in Dade County today and where we're probably going to be headed and all those kinds of things. Over time, what I started to experience, it's just it was, first of all, just plain weariness, like the feeling like I am having trouble making decisions, even about my schedule, like even getting myself up out of bed. And it wasn't depression, it was just weariness. And then for me, because one of my core themes is the fear and the shame of not being competent, having to navigate liability issues. And I've never been a therapist, I've made a vow, I will always operate ethically. But I don't ever want to be driven by the fear of liability. And right now, the fear of liability is a big deal for many, many people and so that I would say for me has been the thing that I've needed, I've gotten reestablished with my own therapist, spiritual director, who's really helped me navigate that. But I think that the fear of doing what's best and what's good, in particular for my clients and for my family. That's been a big one. And then quite honestly just the heartache of watching my kids miss out had some really important rites of passage during this season, and that kind of that kind of thing. But yeah, I've had a lot of disruptive sleep too. But then this might be TMI, and you guys can take it out, but I'm like, man, I'm like, disrupted sleep, I'm sweating, I've got a rash, then I found out, geez I'm in menopause. That's what that is. So I was just chalking it all up to the pandemic, man. When I started growing a beard and a mustache, I'm like, okay, I don't think this is stress related. I think this is something different. So, I mean of all times to go through that, for crying out loud.

Randy:

Seriously. No one gets to complain about 2020 as much as you do, Jenny.

Jenny:

Oh, gosh.

Randy:

For our dear listeners, Jenny Heckman is a woman who celebrated her 40th birthday by competing in a Ironman competition. And did you do a marathon for your 50th?

Jenny:

I did the Ironman again for my 50th.

Randy:

That's right. I remember working with you when you were training for that. What an animal.

Jenny:

No more. No.

Randy:

We told our daughter about that today, actually, because I was talking about you. And she was like, she looked like I just told her about some horrible torture that, that you've subjected yourself to.

Jenny:

Well, and that it is. In theory, it's a fantastic event.

Randy:

Yeah, we'll do a second episode with Jenny Hackman, the, the Ironman athlete that you are, about that experience. Well Jenny, you know, Kyle mentioned that you were a pastor, I see you as still a pastor, and along with your expertise in the therapeutic world. But I wonder if you could, you know, fully step back into that Pastor role and just speak a word of blessing over our listeners who have walked through a chaotic crazy year, and had to endure all sorts of things. Would you just finish our time together by just blessing, speaking a word of blessing over our listeners?

Jenny:

I'd love to and you know, you actually, you didn't know, but you gave me a real gift of validation. Because when I talked with my therapist slash spiritual director last week and told her how ungrounded I felt as a professional, what she brought me back to is Jenny, I think it would be much more congruent--and this is a woman who is skilled, she is, she's older than I am, more experienced, and one of the most professional people I've ever met--and she said, I think it would be so much better for you to envision the work that you do, that you are a pastor, disguised as a therapist.

Randy:

That's right, I think that's right.

Jenny:

Cleverly disguised as a therapist, like to bring those two things together. So I just wanted to say, thank you. Thank you for that.

Randy:

It's true. Yep.

Jenny:

Yeah. So I think the, the blessing would be that by the empowering grace of the Lord Jesus, the Heavenly Father, and the Holy Spirit, may you make room, expand your paradigm, to let all that is good and all that is not good coexist, and trust that what is truly joyous, truly good, truly available and sufficient in new creation and the reign of Christ will never be snuffed out by what's not good. And may you embrace your unbelievable vocation as a human being modeled after the one true human Jesus, to carry out his work, his joy, his goodness, his hope, among all the people and places you find yourself in, during the pandemic and beyond. Amen.

Randy:

In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, amen Jenny. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jenny:

Thank you for having me. It was a joy.

Randy:

So fun.

Elliot:

Thanks for listening to A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar. We hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please rate and review the podcast before you close your app. You can also share the episode with friends or family members with the links from our social media pages. Gain inside access, extra perks, and more at patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher. We're so grateful for your support of the podcast. Until next time, this has been A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar.

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