Shane Claiborne...what a gem. Shane has written a number of incredible books including The Irresistible Revolution and Jesus for President, and we got the opportunity to chat with him about a whole bunch of things. The cult (and possible heresy) of Christian nationalism, trying to embody the Sermon on the Mount as an American, the death penalty, and a number of other things. Shane is a delight and has such a knack for centering every topic of every conversation back to Jesus.
The beer we drank on this episode was Bell's Brewery Imperial Rye Barrel Aged Ale supplied by the wonderful people at Story Hill BKC.
The beverage tasting is at 0:42. To skip to the main segment, go to 4:39.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
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The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
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Cheers!
Shane Claiborne...what a gem. Shane has written a number of incredible books including The Irresistible Revolution and Jesus for President, and we got the opportunity to chat with him about a whole bunch of things. The cult (and possible heresy) of Christian nationalism, trying to embody the Sermon on the Mount as an American, the death penalty, and a number of other things. Shane is a delight and has such a knack for centering every topic of every conversation back to Jesus.
The beer we drank on this episode was Bell's Brewery Imperial Rye Barrel Aged Ale supplied by the wonderful people at Story Hill BKC.
The beverage tasting is at 0:42. To skip to the main segment, go to 4:39.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
Well, welcome friends to another episode of A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar. We're super excited about the guest we're talking to today, somebody that we've both been hoping to get on the podcast since we started it. Shane Claiborne is going to be on the show. So we're going to be talking to Shane about quite a few things we've always wanted to ask him. We don't really have like a book or, like, a set agenda or anything like we normally do. He's been gracious enough to be willing to talk to us about whatever. So we're gonna ask him everything we always wanted to know.
Randy:Yeah, I mean.
Kyle:It's gonna be great.
Randy:True story. I've had a conversation with Shane Claiborne, and it was in the bathroom of a church in suburban Milwaukee at a urinal. So...
Kyle:I'm gonna need to hear that story.
Randy:This'll improve on that one, I think. But, we also have something extremely special that we're tasting. Story Hill BKC let us know about this special release. It's a Bell's Brewing imperial rye barrel ale. It is about three years old, they got the barrel, which is one of about 50 nationwide that was released in 2018, and then they cellared it for about three years. So this has been sitting in this rye whiskey barrel for three years just taking on the character and the goodness of the barrel. And really, he said, this is mostly for you Kyle, because he knew this would just be right up your, your wheelhouse. And by the time you listen to this, you won't be able to, this is probably going to be tapped. It's a limited release at Story Hill BKC, but this is just an example of the extravagant things that Story Hill BKC has both on tap and ready to pour. So let's try this.
Kyle:So this is technically a rye wine, I looked it up, which is a fairly unusual style, I guess somewhat similar to a barleywine, except without the barley. Tends to be very high ABV, tends to have a dark, kind of malty, spicy profile. I've had three of them, this will be my fourth, let's see. Smells amazing.
Randy:Wow.
Kyle:Toffee, caramel on the nose.
Elliot:It has the richness of wine when you smell it. It makes sense.
Randy:Such a big flavor. Whoa.
Kyle:Yeah, that's good. So mellow.
Randy:Mellow. Yeah, I mean, it's a sipper right? I mean...
Kyle:Cellaring was a good idea. I didn't have it before, but there's just no like, all the, any, like sharp edges have been worn down.
Randy:Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's caramelly. It's malty. It's not overly toasty. The color is really dark brown, really dark brown. But you wouldn't imagine, I wouldn't imagine it being so mellow and really nice and smooth.
Kyle:Yeah, if you've never had anything like this, imagine taking a bar of toffee and melting it down. And then mixing it with, I don't know...
Randy:What a treat.
Elliot:I know I haven't had a bunch of the nicest beers, but I wouldn't even, if I did this blind, I wouldn't know how to This is, yeah, it's coffee. It's chocolate. It's caramel. Toffee, identify it. I wouldn't necessarily say it's beer. I haven't had many of the meads either, but it reminds me a lot of the richness of of that one that we had. Or wine. It's just, it's crazy. like you said. Decadent.
Randy:Yeah. Oh, man.
Kyle:Yeah, decadent's a good word for sure.
Randy:It's kind of a perfect, like breakfast, dessert beer. You know what I mean?
Kyle:It is a bit like eating, like, French toast or something.
Randy:Yeah, totally. This is crazy. I mean, in cellaring it for three years, that just takes on the goodness of the barrel, right? I mean, it's just getting more and more of that character. This is incredible.
Kyle:Yeah. Well, Joe, thanks.
Randy:Yep, Story Hill BKC. Cheers.
Kyle:Cheers. So we're getting a bunch of interesting reviews of the podcast on iTunes and Apple Podcasts, and we like to showcase some of those sometimes, so that you guys who are doing the work of leaving the reviews get some positive affirmation, also a way of encouraging others to do the same. So we're going to read one here. This is from ikey1991. And they say, "I really appreciate the way that they talk about relevant topics without taboo. Growing up in an evangelical Christian culture, there was one way to understand what Christianity was. Since I've started following the questions in my heart and taking them seriously, I've begun looking for different perspectives. They do a great job of discussing these issues from the philosophy and Christianity perspectives." So thank you, whoever left that review.
Randy:Thank you, seriously.
Kyle:Appreciate that. This is your regular encouragement to go leave us a review if you haven't already. iTunes, Apple Podcasts, or Facebook are the best places to do those. And also, regular reminder that we have a Patreon and if you haven't subscribed, feel free to do so. So let's throw a shout out to one of our Top Shelf Patreon supporters who contribute monthly and allow us to have great production quality and a bunch of other fun stuff. So Josh Barnes, thanks for being a consistent Top Shelf subscriber.
Randy:Cheers.
Kyle:Cheers.
Randy:Hello, sir.
Shane:Whazzuuup.
Kyle:How's it going?
Shane:I'm excited about the conversation. I was just looking over my notes from you here.
Randy:Yeah, we're excited too Shane. Thanks for, thanks for taking time seriously. So our podcast is called A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar, which is why we're day drinking here, that's what we do. But I'm the pastor. We actually met. You were speaking, it was one of your Milwaukee visits and we chatted in a bathroom, well, I asked you a question, and then I was peeing. And in the bathroom, I hear this voice and you go, where did that question come from? And I turn around, and it's you and your bandana. And we had a little conversation. This is years ago. This is Kyle. He's the philosopher of the...
Shane:I probably tried to block that one out, I think, the bathroom convo. Yeah that's awesome. Good, cool, Kyle, tell me about you, man.
Kyle:So I'm a recent philosophy PhD. I'm currently job hunting and teaching at a place here in Wisconsin. So we actually met several years back at a music festival called Audiofeed that you spoke at. We shared some pizza and had a good chat. So...
Shane:Audiofeed, remember it like it was yesterday. A lot of the, the, a lot of loud music there. Yeah.
Kyle:That's a nice, polite way to put it.
Shane:You know, I'm trying to think of what to call it and I'm not sure what to call it to be honest. I know the genres of music, but I'm not sure where some of that fit in.
Kyle:No, a lot of it's intentionally genre resistant.
Shane:I might be genre, I might be genre resistant too.
Kyle:In many ways, yeah.
Randy:There you go.
Shane:This seems like a typical philosophy PhD, and you're looking for a job. I bet there's a lot of philosophers with PhDs that are looking for jobs.
Kyle:With, starting podcasts. Yeah. Because...
Shane:But you guys, you guys have the podcast going for you. It looks like you've had a lot of great folks on here.
Kyle:We have. Yeah, we've been very fortunate.
Randy:Yeah. All right, Shane, let's, let's get started. Shane Claiborne, welcome to A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar.
Shane:Yes. And I don't know where I fit into this picture. But glad to be here with y'all.
Randy:I think right in the middle in like this cozy little group here.
Kyle:That's creepy.
Randy:Yeah, absolutely. Shane, tell our listeners a little bit about like, everyone knows who you are. But how did you get to where you are occupying the space that you're in within Christianity and within the church and within your advocacy work? How'd you get to where you are? I forgot how southern your, you are. It's just a delight hearing you speak because I usually read your words more than I hear you. But tell us where are you from? And how you got here?
Shane:Oh, yeah, I grew up. I'm gonna just tell you how southern I am. How about that. I grew up in the hills of Tennessee. And my great grandfather was the postman by horseback in the Smoky Mountains. When Dolly Parton won the Kennedy award, I remember my uncle being on the couch going "I remember when she used to play on the front steps," you know? So that's my world. Those are my people. And I inherited land that literally on the deed is "Old Hag Holler." My mom went up to look at it, the land and see how it was faring and a woman pulled a gun on her. "Oh, I'm the old hag that the road's named after." I kid you not, you can't make this stuff up. So that's that's my backdrop. And now I mean, there's some there's some not beautiful pieces of that, I grew up in a little town that was still very segregated, Merillville High School, the Merillville High School Rebels, that's, that's my high school. But it's also, we had the Confederate flag on everything. I mean, it was our lunch room trays, it was on our murals, football field, you know. You know, when I see Jesus saying, you know, do you have eyes to see and ears to hear, I guess over the last 20 years, I've been able to have some of the blinders, you know, ripped away and see some things differently. I did fall in love with Jesus down there, though. And, you know, I grew up in them in the Methodist Church, and also got a little bored in the Methodist church that I grew up in. I loved Jesus, but I mean, I just wanted more, you know, and I, so I got involved in the charismatic movement, because they believed in miracles, they believed in healing, you know, they got wild, had to get rebaptised and go all the way under the water because the Methodists just sprinkle a little bit, you know or whatnot, so. And then, you know, and I think like, that's part of, all that has shaped me, you know, and then of course, having some Catholic mentors and learning from Mother Teresa and you know, different folks along the way. All that has really shaped me. So, I guess, you know, in all of our Christian traditions, you got some bones you got to spit out, but I think there's some things that are worth holding on to so. What were we talking about before we went on the air, genre? What was it? We were saying some music is genre immune or something?
Kyle:Genre resistant? Yeah.
Shane:So I, you know, I love Jesus, and I've been shaped by lots of genres of Christianity I guess.
Randy:Yeah. Did you have a distinct moment when you went from I've got Confederate flags on my, you know, lunch trays to this doesn't really work with me and Jesus. Was there a moment or was it just this kind of evolution?
Shane:There was a curiosity. Right. And I guess there was a suspicion that I felt about some of those things. I started to see some contradictions in the church. You know, like we said we were pro life, but we really only talked about life before birth, you know, and like once you were out of the womb, you're own your own baby, every other life issue, the Christians were the problem, you know. So I saw all that. But it was really when I went to Eastern University up in Philly, that, I chose Eastern because I liked the charismatic side of it. That, you know, like, the worship felt very authentic and real. And I got to go to some chapels before I decided to go, you know that that was the college I wanted to go to. But then it was also really diverse, especially for an evangelical Christian school. So I enjoyed getting to know folks that were different from me, like, especially, you know, I mean, really African American folks. I grew up you know, in my high school, just to tell you how small the town was, I was, I was prom king. And the prom queen was one of the few African American women in our school. So I'd always been like, really comfortable around folks that weren't white and stuff. But I didn't, you know, that was part of what drew me to Eastern was I wanted to have that world and the kind of little world I grew up in cracked a little bit more. So but, you said is there a moment, and I tell you, I can remember it like it was yesterday, when I put my high school yearbook on my shelf at Eastern, and there was a confederate flag on it. And my friends were like, dude, what in the world? And I was like, Oh, that's my high school yearbook. They're like, yeah, that thing's not about football team spirit, you know. So yeah.
Randy:Wow. So you alluded to Mother Teresa a few minutes ago, Shane. You spent a couple of months, I didn't know this, but you spent a couple of months working alongside Mother Teresa in Calcutta, who's now St. Teresa of Calcutta. Can you tell us about how, tell us about that experience. How formational, just tell us about Mother Teresa. Goodness.
Shane:Well, the backdrop for it was, here we are you know, in, we're 19 years old or whatever, in college, studying the Bible studying, trying to figure out how to live the out the radical, you know, gospel of Jesus. And you start to think, well, there's all these wonderful saints, you know, Francis of Assisi and Oscar Romero, and, you know, Rosa Parks, and you know, Dorothy Day, Martin Luther King, all these people that already died, and yet, we started going, who's still trying to live out the, the Sermon on the Mount, who's trying to sell what they have and give it to the poor? And we became really fascinated with Mother Teresa. So we wrote her a letter and asked if we could come, you know, work for the summer. She didn't write back. And that didn't stop us though, you know, we're 20 and nothing's impossible. So we called nuns until we got a phone number. Literally, this is before the internet y'all. So, we had, you know, I mean, we were in a phonebook at a payphone in the lounge of our dorm. People don't even know what that is anymore, but you put coins in them young people. She picked up the phone, like $3 a minute, so I wasn't small talking, I'm dropping quarters in that phone, you know, like crazy. And so I asked her if we could come work. And she said, yeah, come on out here. And we did, a couple college friends and I. And I went back after she had passed away. But that has also been, you know, so formative for me. I worked in, I just read about this stuff, you know, I worked in her orphanages in the morning, I worked in the home for the dying, her first home that she started, in the afternoon. We'd take people off the streets who were dying and bring them in and take care of, like, mostly help them die with someone holding their hand, you know, not alone on the streets. And it was grueling work. But holy work, beautiful work. And you know, so much about my prayer life was shaped there. I was just telling someone the other day, like, Mother Teresa, at one point, I had been asked to read the scripture in mass. And I didn't even know how to do that, you know, because Catholics, it's not just like, you throw open the Bible and read it. You gotta say something before and after. And I was like, I'm reading this in front of Mother Teresa, she's the one that asked me to read it, and I know I need a little lesson in Catholicism 101 or something. So I learned, I learned a lot though, you know, when I was over there, and more than I know how to put in sound bites, you know, but I've written a lot about it. And I mean, one of the places that was just just so, so impactful was, I mean, technically, we called it a leper colony. I don't know if you would call, say that today, but it was a, it was a village of folks who had skin diseases and who they themselves, you know, knew as leprosy. So in the caste system, they were totally outcast. And, you know, if you've never been to India or somewhere like that, it's hard to imagine, but you can't go in stores, you can't go in restaurants. You are literally, I mean, it's where we get the the word "outcast," you know, and so this community was formed along the train tracks. Mother Teresa got this land donated, and like 300 families lived there. And I had a real unique opportunity to spend some time there and, man, I mean, just unbelievable. You talk about a village that was autonomous from it's, like, they had built this place, and you know, had their own fish hatchery. They grew their own food, they made their own clothes, they had wood crafters that would custom make an arm and a leg out of wood for people when they, you know, we're amputees, because that happens with the disease. I mean, it was just, just stunning. So that's been a big part of my formation. And even the, you know, as I think about community, that little community of folks that were outcasts in India, have really inspired a lot of the vision that I have for what it looks like to live in community in the world.
Randy:Wow. So in your 2008, book, Jesus for President, such a amazing and really prophetic book, it's a book about the politics of Jesus and nationalism. Since then, we've lived through the election of 2016 and 82% of Evangelicals voting for Trump and new polls suggesting that possibly 30 million Americans support QAnon in some way, shape, or form, right? There's, and many of those identify as Christians, and then January 6 happens. All this stuff is building towards where we see this overwhelming tidal wave of Christian nationalism and the church going in that direction. You visited one of these churches, you know, we have the Patriot Church and then Greg Locke's church, I don't even know what it's called, but you visited and wrote about it. What? Tell us tell us what your thoughts are in this wave of Christian nationalism, where you see this all heading in the church and just your impression on it?
Shane:Well, interestingly enough, I think we're getting ready to release, re-release, Jesus for President, and you know, my buddy Chris and I that wrote it together, we had a great team, but we went back and looked at it. And I'm like, man, I'm not sure we'd say anything different. There's just some things that we would highlight and underline... "Pay attention to this!" you know, like, if I'm looking back to when we first wrote that there's not much that's happening now that's surprising to me, although it's no less tragic, I think as we see so many things unfolding in our country, and many of them with, you know, Christian bumper stickers and flags as they do things like what we saw on January 6. So I believe, you know, I've said a lot of times that Trump didn't change America, he revealed America. And I think that's been true of the evangelical church, too. It's not like Trump was this, you know, thing that radically changed evangelicalism, a lot of this was below the surface, the conspiracy theories, the fidelity to radical, you know, kind of ideas that are overtly racist, and things like that, you know, so some of that history, I think, is just kind of getting aired, but he certainly unleashed some of the worst principalities and powers, you know, and...
Randy:So Shane, if it's, if it was beneath the surface, which I totally agree with you, is there any way shape or form that this unveiling of the racism, of the nationalism, of the, you know, conspiracy theory, you know, fodder, is it in any way a good thing that it's been...?
Shane:Well, I think the truth sets us free, right, as Jesus said, and so we, when you have things that are sort of trying to camouflage themselves as Christianity, and you rip the mask away, and you see what it really is, I think that's helpful, but it's, it's, there's just a lot of, a lot of damage being done, right. There are people that think they're rejecting Christianity, but they're really just rejecting a version of American nationalism that's trying to camouflage itself as Christianity and it doesn't look anything like Jesus. And ironically, that's one of the things that I think is, is an antidote for some of this, is to center Jesus again. And one of the best correctives of Trump evangelicalism is Jesus. Because, you know, here's Jesus blessing the poor and saying, as you welcome the immigrant or the stranger, you welcome me. I mean, Jesus is it's hard to really twist Jesus's words. I think that you can use the Old Testament, you can use some things that Paul said, to try to clutter the words of Jesus. But once you really center Jesus, it's hard to justify the indefensible things that Trump did and said, and things like what happened on January 6. So I think we name it as a heresy. And there's no doubt in my mind that hundreds of years ago when, you know, the early church and other Christian councils were happening, that they would have named this, this kind of American nationalism as a, as a heresy of the church. I mean, it probably, some, some parts of the church might have done more than that. I'm not interested in taking anybody out. But you know, I think, I think naming that is really helpful. So I, you know, but I also believe that Matthew 18 calls us to directly confront or interact with our brothers and sisters when they are in danger of distorting our faith or doing things that are missing the mark, as sin means, you know, and so that's part of why I have personally reached out to folks that, like Sean Feuchtand Greg Locke, and others, that, some of us, we have some mutual friends, you know, and so I'm not one of those guys that likes to be throwing stones at somebody at all, but, especially from a distance, I want to talk with people, not at them. So with Jerry Falwell, Jr., I'm not sure what he's doing now, bless him, but you know, but like Franklin Graham, others, we've always tried to reach out and talk with people, not at them and not just tweet about them.
Kyle:Have you had any success with that?
Shane:Still working on the, you know, dialogue, you know, means it's a two way thing. So you know, but what more can you do? And Matthew, you know, Jesus is actually really wise. And unsurprisingly, you know, like, like telling us, go talk with them, if they don't listen to you, then bring a couple other people with you. If they still don't listen to you, then go public with it. You know, and I think that's the kind of trajectory that, that Jesus kind of offers us. So that makes a lot of sense to me. You know, and I hope people have the respect to do the same thing to me when I'm out of line. I don't pretend to be above, above reproach here. Yeah.
Randy:That's so good, Shane. And so, I'm sorry, Kyle, just real quick. I mean, I've been astounded at your level of respect and dignity when I've seen you engage Sean Feucht on Twitter and, and others. And it challenges me because I think almost all of us have friends or family who fall into this Trump cult and this, you know, Christian nationalism. And it's so hard for me to understand, for me to give grace, for me to love. But I know that's what I'm called to do. What is loving our brothers and sisters--and you even said, maybe this is a heresy, so are they our brothers and sisters in Christ? That's a quest question--and then also, how do we love these, these folks who we're in relationship with, we're kind of stuck with for better for worse, and I'm called to love my family members who are giving themselves to this craziness. And it's really hard for me. What are your thoughts, Shane?
Shane:Well, so that's really kind of you. But I would, you know, I think it's really great that the beginning of this conversation, we went in a little bit more depth in my backdrop, because that is so important to me that I, I've been on this transition this, the whole scripture that says, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, right? This is not just about a moment, but conversion is something God's doing in us continually. And that gives me a little bit of grace, and a little bit of patience with folks. For instance, when people tell me that, you know, when we're talking about the death penalty, and they whip out, you know, a verse from Leviticus or something, I'm like, hey let's talk about that. I'd love to talk about that. And, you know, I have patience for that argument, because I've used that argument. And so I kind of think, you know, how much grace would I have if I met myself when I was 18 years old, you know, and, and, and we need that right now. There's a lot of self righteousness. And it's not partisan. You know, there's, there's, there's folks on the left and the right, that I think, have this sort of self righteousness that Jesus called it toxic. You know, he said, It's the yeast of the Pharisees. It's very oppressive. And because I think that we end up sort of being theological police, we end up being moral gatekeepers, we decide who's in and who's out. And I grew up with a conservative form of that, you know, the old "don't smoke, drink, or chew or go out with girls that do," you know, but there's obviously a progressive form of that, that has a different litmus test, but, but it feels the same, you know? So I mean, I think that's, that's always dangerous. And, and the last thing I'd say about like, like, who's in and out, which is a dangerous question--are these my brothers or sisters, you know, as you said--I would just keep, rather than saying, you know, it's, it's my job to decide who's in and out, I think that that's God's, you know, as Jesus said that the wheat and the weeds are growing together. So it's not up to us to try to figure it out. But I would say this, that the word Christian means Christ-like. It means little Christ, you know, that we're to be imitators of Jesus. And we know what Jesus was like. Jesus is, is the full manifestation of God, this is what God is like, right? If we got any questions, like, look at Jesus, and it is, Jesus is love with skin on, love made manifest, even to the point where when he's being tortured and killed, he's saying, Father, forgive them for they don't know what they're doing. Like, that's what we're called to imitate. So I would say that we, we know a little bit about what the essence of Christianity is, and it's Jesus. You know, you know an apple tree by the fruit. You don't look at an apple tree and go "I wonder if that's an orange tree or a plum tree," you know, like, you know it by its fruit. And so if our Christianity is not about love, let's not call it Christianity. If whatever religion we prescribe to is not about welcoming immigrants and refugees and finding some orderly, you know, way to do that well, like, let's not call it Christianity. If it's not blessing the poor, if it's not blessing the meek and those who are hurting and mourning, then it's not Christianity. So we can say, this is something that feels to me like Jesus, or like the testing the spirits, as scripture says, you know, but that's a little different from saying Greg Locke is going to hell, I'm sure not going to say that.
Kyle:Yeah, sure. Oh, yeah, yeah, we wouldn't want to say that either. But I mean, I think there's a difference between saying somebody's going to hell and saying they're, they're not a Christian, right, that they're not honoring the baptism that they claim.
Shane:Yeah, and, and I'll be honest, the things that I've heard him say, are really, really concerning to me. And this is why I, for Sean, Sean Feucht, you know, this worship leader that was, I don't think he's there anymore, but formerly at Bethel, you know, and I just think that there's so many concerning things, you know, when the Rolling Stone did the, the "Jesus Christ Super Spreader" article, he really, he really embraced that and began selling "Super Spreader" shirts on his website. So to me, that's at the, very insensitive and unChristlike, but it's also, you know, it's one of those things that, we can confront that, but part, part of what we're talking with, y'all, I think, is like, how much airtime do you give this stuff? And on the other hand, I think the best corrective to what's wrong is singing a better song, is living out a version of faith that, as much as we can, is honoring Christ and honoring those who are vulnerable in our society. So yeah, it's a delicate dance, isn't it, on some of that stuff. So at Red Letter Christians, we say we want to change the narrative by changing the narrators, and some of the loudest, most public voices haven't been the most beautiful. So on the one hand, we do challenge some of the, you know, televangelists and preachers that are trying to defend Trump and whatever, you know, racist thing that's been said, but I think we also want to keep the constructive program, you know, proclaiming the good news of Jesus.
Randy:Yep. Yep. So switching gears, Sean, or Shane, you identify... [laughter] Oh geez. All right, here we go. Switching gears, Shane, you identify as a pacifist or as you would say, a peacemaker. On our show, Kyle, this guy, is, self-identifies as a pacifist. I haven't been able to go that whole way yet. I'm waiting for you guys to convince me. For me, the nonviolent peacemaking way of Jesus is a way of life that I've I've given myself to, and I want to give myself more and more to, but it feels idealistic on a big, large national scale to hold to a pacifist ideology and, and way of, way of working as a government and as a nation. Tell me why...
Kyle:And by idealistic, you really mean naive, right?
Randy:In some ways, yep.
Kyle:Yeah, there's nothing wrong with being idealistic.
Randy:Yeah, yeah. Not realistic, is what I'm trying to say. So tell me why you think pacifism is realistic from, for, like, why, why Joe Biden should say, We're done with war. And we're done. We're gonna, you know, take away the, 100% of the federal defense, you know, funding. It's all, you know, in some ways, that'd be brilliant, but in others it sounds like we're just committing, you know, we're just killing our nation. So tell, tell me why you think it's not idealistic? Why it is realistic for the United States and any other nation to be a pacifist nation?
Shane:Well, so I think we can look at history and make a reasonable argument that violence has worked to solve international conflicts. I think we can also make a rational argument that nonviolence has worked and point to some really specific places. So to me the, the bigger question than what works is what looks like Jesus. What, which is the way of Jesus? Because it didn't look like Jesus's preaching of love worked on Good Friday. And I mean, like, the story did not end well in a certain sense, right? And please, I think we also have to remember, like, even as we think about violence that we see today or evil in the world that we live in, I mean, you're certainly not saying this, but some people would sort of paint it out as Jesus lived in this, this totally different world that they didn't have people like the Taliban, you know, or ISIS or something. Like, actually, there were, the historians, you know, in the, the, exactly when Jesus was living, said that there were so many crucifixions on the horizon in Rome, that you couldn't enjoy a good sunset. They were slaughtering people on crosses. Herod was killing little babies all over the land as Jesus was born. So I mean, I think that context becomes really important for Jesus preaching love, and living out love, right? When Jesus is saying love your enemies, I think he knew fully well what human beings are capable of. And, and so this is what I would say, is that I don't know how I would to act in every situation, every hypothetical, you know, but what I do aspire to is to resist evil without mirroring evil, to, I believe that oppressors can be resisted without being emulated, that we don't use the same weapons that are used against us. And Dr. King really came to that reality. At one point, he was a gun owner, you know, thought, I mean, like, many people, probably thinking I might need this sucker, you know, and then realized we're not going to win the fight against violence, the fight for peace, using its, the weapons of violence, you know, even if it costs us our life, which it did for Dr. King, right? So, when Jesus says greater love has no one than this, than to lay down their life, I believe that. I believe that you can have other things, like courage, that can be violent, can use violence. And that's why Gandhi, it's interesting, because Gandhi, you know, champion for nonviolence, he said, if I have to choose between a coward and a soldier, give me a soldier, because that passion, that courage, the willingness to die, like, can be channeled into love, but you can't do much with a coward. So I think we've got to be willing to die for the cross, as willing to die for the cross as people have been willing to die for the sword. We've gotta, you know, put as much resources towards life giving alternatives to the things that are the sources of violence than we've put towards our military weapons, which is just unimaginable the amount of money we've got, you know, over 50,000 Hiroshima bombs. Why would anyone need one Hiroshima bomb? We, we're the only people that have used these weapons, and we killed hundreds of thousands of people twice in one week. Right? So like, that's the kind of thing where, you know, even folks that are, you know, adhering to a just war theory, I would definitely challenge, I would challenge whether you can even have Augustine's just war theory in a world with drones and with nuclear weapons, right, because it violates the very grounds, you're the philosopher over here, right, but like, it violates the very grounds that he formed the just war theory on. But I don't, in the end, I don't follow Augustine. I follow Jesus. And I find it really impossible for me, and this is one who grew up with guns, I grew up with a dad in the military, so none of this was like, like, no-brainer work, you know, I didn't grow up Mennonite or something, so, but I grew into this understanding that I cannot love my enemies and simultaneously prepare to kill them. I just don't think that I can hold the cross in one hand and a weapon in the other. And I'm very open to dialoguing with with other folks that are working that out, you know, but that's, that's where I am. And you know, I mean, one of the clearest cases of that is when Peter picks up a sword to protect Jesus, and Jesus scolds him, tells him to put the sword back, heals the guy Peter wounded, and Tertullian and the early Christians said that was the final triumph over redemptive violence, right? They said when Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian, because if ever there was a case to try to use violence, a case to be made to use violence, it was, Peter had that case.
Kyle:Yeah. So you mentioned the Mennonites. We both share a fascination with, or I suppose, an honoring of the Anabaptist tradition. So can we just drill a little bit deeper here, if you're if you're willing to? What can, what can we say about the Christian's relationship to the state in general? And what, what is there that we can learn from that Anabaptist tradition? How has that shaped your thought about that?
Shane:Awesome, well, I'll give an affirmation and maybe a gentle, friendly critique of the, the, you know, for folks, by the way, when I first heard Anabaptist, I thought they were saying anti-Baptist, you know, I was like, why did they like, why do they not like the Baptists so much? Because, and, for folks that don't know, the Anabaptist tradition, you know, has been the peace, one of the streams of the Peace Church, really committed to nonviolence, to sharing possessions, to community, and have been a real inspiration for me. So I think the thing that I would affirm, and what we really kind of dive into in Jesus for President, is that this was about a profound and subversive new way of thinking about ourselves in the world, that we were, when the early Christians said "Jesus is Lord," they were saying "Caesar is not." They found themselves a part of a different empire that was subverting the power structures and the oppressive structures of their time. You know, when Jesus talks about the Kingdom of God, it was the same word as empire. And he talked about it coming on earth as it is in heaven. Then you see the descriptions of it in the Gospel, and like, the last are first, the first are last, the mighty are cast from their thrones, the lowly are lifted, the hungry are filled with good things, the rich are sent away empty, you're like, holy cow, that's not Karl Marx, that's the Gospel of the Lord. You know? So that, but that pronunciation of, you know, flipping the whole world upside down, is what they were about. And that's why they were crucified. You know, they were killed. They were called enemies of the state. You know, they were, in the book of Acts in the New Testament, it says, you know, they're pronouncing a, they're proclaiming a different emperor, one named Jesus, and they're creating havoc all over the empire. So this, this was definitely a sense that our hope is not in Caesar, our hope is in Jesus, our citizenship is in heaven. Now, I think how that works itself out is that some people can end up with this idea that this is all just about going to heaven when we die. And we can end up, you know, the old saying, like, we're so heavenly minded, we're not much earthly good. And so there can be sort of an escapist theology that, that this world is not our home. And it's why you know, what was it back in the day, ole' Mark Driscoll or somebody said, you know, that's why we can drive SUVs with a smile, because we're expediting the apocalypse, you know, that we're just gonna let this world go to crap because Jesus is coming back, and we'll make it happen faster. So that's, like, whacked out crazy theology, but I think that what I would say about the Anabaptists is that there's still this sense that we want to be a part of the transformation of the world. The kingdom is not just something we go up to when we die, but something we're to bring on earth while we live. So what does that look like? I think it looks, it includes policies and structural changes to the world that we live in, right? Like Martin Luther King, he knew this well. He said, no law can make you love me, but it can make it harder for you to kill me. Right? So like, so so many of these issues, for instance, like gun violence, people will say, well, that's not a gun issue, it's a heart issue. And there's some Anabaptists that would say that, right? And I would say it's both, right? So God heals hearts, but people change laws. And you know, in the civil rights movement, we, only God could change a racist heart. No, you can't legislate love, right? You can't change someone's heart by, you know, enacting laws. But we did need laws to change so folks could swim in the same swimming pools, you know, so that people could vote, black folks could vote and women could vote, and to, so that we could have a more just society. So I guess that's what I would say. And some of that's hanging out with folks like Reverend Barber and people in the civil rights movement, realizing that the Anabaptists have something to offer us, but so does the hstoric black church. And so do the liberation traditions that see that God is redeeming all things. So the question becomes, what does it look like to have some of our governmental systems redeemed? What does it look like if America were shaping policies by love, rather than by fear, and you know, whether it's immigration or guns or the death penalty, I think our faith should cause us to care about policies as well. So loving our neighbor as ourself means harnessing the powers of our government that are hurting people. And I still got my anarchistic tendencies, please, y'all, I mean, Dorothy Day's been my mentor from a distance. So I see voting and things like that as doing damage control, as trying to...
Randy:That's a great way of putting it.
Shane:...kind of, you know, harness the principalities and powers that are, that can work in our governmental systems.
Kyle:Yeah, that's interesting. So I like the, you know, using the black church as kind of a corrective for some of the more insular aspects of Anabaptism, which, we have to admit, has tended to be white. But a thing that I have liked about the Anabaptist tradition, reading people like Hauerwas, for example, is that the, the emphasis on building a kind of alternative community as a way of modeling what a structure could look like that was was based on love. It's kind of what drew me to anabaptism to begin with, but I'm just going to confess to you, because I want to get your take on it, see if you ever feel like this, that I've been kind of losing hope in that vision, particularly in the last five years, as you can imagine, something happened in 2016 that might make me lose hope in that vision. And I, I find myself conflicted now in my commitment to those ideals that you just described. Because I find that empirically, it seems to me that the American church is just incapable of doing that. That, that, certainly on a large scale, it's very difficult to find examples anymore where I think that's actually happening. And it seems to me in fact, that the government, as messed up as it is, is paradoxically more capable of serving the ends of the kingdom at this historical moment. And I mean, specific concrete ends. So things like caring for the poor, protecting the marginalized and vulnerable, healing the sick through things like health care, combating climate change, taking care of the planet. I mean, these are like urgent, life, like, life-transforming on a humanity-wide scale issues that need immediate action, and if we were to turn any one of those things I mentioned over to the church, we'd all be screwed. So I find myself these days thinking that if someone comes to me and asks, okay, what is the Christian's relationship to the state? What should I do? I'm more inclined to tell them go vote Democrat.
Randy:Which, as a church leader, Brew City Church, I just want to point out that Kyle said that, not Randy.
Kyle:Yeah, this is my, sure. Yeah, sure. So I'm less inclined to tell them that kind of story about building an alternative community and that kind of living the way of Jesus, even if you need to do it a little bit apart, whatever. And I'm more inclined to say, that's the ideal, but man, we're in the thick of it, and you got to make some wartime decisions, so to speak, and right now, the best way to do the work of Jesus is to get some political moderates in there. You know what I mean? Like?
Shane:Yeah, so, so just a few thoughts on that, is, so one of them is about where our hope lies, right? Like, where, and I like that old hymn, like, our hope is built on nothing less than Jesus's blood and righteousness. I think that's, that is a profound, you know, pronouncement. And that's what the early church was saying. They had very little hope in Caesar and changing the world, and, and so I think we have to really, I would, I would suggest, not have our hope in the Democrats or in the Republicans or, but you know, this, this idea that we're grounded in the lamb, not the elephant or the donkey, is really core to my theology. I also don't have, like blur, folks that are, that are working for good--the prophets, the prophets are, they don't distinguish between who's in power, whether they're, you know, Jewish, or, or, you know, in the New Testament, whether Christian, like, they're, they're calling for justice to the, for the poor, no matter who's in power, and they're advocating for that. And in the fact, I mean, one of the things that I got really struck by is that, let's just think about one issue, the death penalty, for a second. Like, if every Christian governor were to take this, their faith seriously enough to say that, like, to be, blessed are the merciful for they will be shown mercy, like, we would end the death penalty if it weren't for the support of Christians in America. And so that really began to trouble me, right? Like, Greg Abbott in Texas is responsible for all the executions so far this year, except for one, I believe, all the state executions, like Texas is just killing people. And Governor Abbott is justifying the death penalty, even after going to Mass on Sunday. You know, and so, like, it's the same in Tennessee, Bill Lee is a Christian, and yet he's using the electric chair to kill people. So that, I think, like, part of the question is, what does it look like to hold office as a Christian, you know, and then the bigger question is, what is, you know, what's God's dream for our country? Well, I mean, literally, in Matthew 25, Jesus said, all the nations are going to be before me, and you're going to be asked a few questions, and they're not going to be doctrinal questions. They're going to be when I was sick, did you take care of me? When I was a stranger, did you welcome me? When I was hungry, did you feed me? When I was in prison, did you come visit me? Those, really, are the criteria for that final judgment, right? You know, America might want to, you know, do a little, little self check on some of these things. But you know, the, the real test of our, of our, the health of our society is not how the Dow is doing, but how the poor are doing. And so that's, you know, that, and that's not partisan. And just just to give you one more example, this--I like your shirt, by the way, you got the We the People ride, you know, bike ride at the border, I've been thinking of them--and here's the deal, like, welcoming immigrants, that should not be a Republican thing or a Democrat thing. That's a God thing. It's a love thing. It's a Jesus thing. Right? You welcome the stranger, you welcome me. And some of the highest numbers of refugees and immigrants have been welcomed under Republican presidents. Some of the lowest were under Trump. But Biden's numbers are lower than Trump. Biden's military budget is higher than Trump's, like, some of the things that I hold as core values are, the, the parties betray those, right? No matter who they are. So I think that's where we, you know, we work with good, like, that's why going, like, this is my fidelity, is to Jesus, to welcoming immigrants, to protecting life. And I would say, I want to do that, I want to reduce the number of abortions. I've been really discouraged with how the Democrats have navigated abortion. I'm also, think that what's happening in Texas is just straight up nuts, you know, and so like, that's not the right answer, but like, how do we have a better ethic of life that sees every person made in the image of God, let's talk about pro-life on gun violence, the death penalty, and abortion. I would love to talk about how we can effectively reduce the need for abortions in our country.
Randy:Man. So you, you mentioned my shirt. We're talking, I was in New York with some friends who call themselves The Common Good Coalition or Common Good Christians, Doug and Shelly Pagitt and Brian McLaren and, and many others, right? You just rode, there's a, there's a bike ride happening right now that started in, I think San Diego, right, and is going to St. Augustine, Florida, trying to raise awareness for the border crisis and immigrants. You spent, I don't know, how long Shane, a week or two? Riding your bike with them?
Shane:I was there for a little less than a week, but I am hoping to go back. Yeah. And they're doing 3200 miles. You're exactly right, California to Florida. So I did, the most I had biked in a day before that was probably about 30 miles. But we busted out over 60 miles and you know, over 100 Miles while I was there, so it was incredible. But it wasn't just about the miles, you know, it's about these amazing people we're meeting with and the tragic stories that we heard.
Randy:Yeah, I mean, first of all, my butt hurts just thinking about, you know, riding 100 miles on a bike. But, but for many of us, for most of us I would say, this immigration policy is theoretical. It's, it's, you know, politicians debating and arguing and us not really knowing the personal side of it. You rode your bike down the border. Tell us, just personalize it for us. What did you see? What did you feel? What was the Spirit speaking to you as you rode your bike along the border?
Shane:Well, you know, I'm a big believer that proximity makes all the difference in the world. You know, when we're talking about immigration or the border crisis, or, I mean, almost anything, you know, folks on death row, like, I want, I think we, we need not just ideologies, but we need relationships. And that's what this was about, is about building friendships along the border, hearing the things that are happening, and hearing everybody out. I mean, we organized to meet with Border Patrol, and hear their perspective. And so I mean, it was just, even just the few days I was there, just stunning. You know, we, some of the folks that we met have even been charged with criminal charges for putting water in the desert and trying to show hospitality to immigrants. But then there were other things were, like in Agua Prieta, I think I said that right, they have worked out a relationship where when folks are apprehended, rather than going to jail or a detention center, they're brought to this mission, to, run by Christians, and they welcome folks, they take care of them, they, really, some of them they're nursing back to life, you know, they're dehydrated. And it was an amazing place. It was also a really hard day that we were there because they had had someone die in, in their care. And so we were putting a memorial out to that person. And we listened to some of these stories, you know, and you, you think like, why would someone risk their lives and go to all that trouble? Well, here's why. Like, I mean, it's like 20, young 20 year old dude is, he's a young father from a remote island in South America that dependent on cruise ships, when that tanked during the, you know, coronavirus, they had no money. I mean, they're literally in, facing hunger. His daughter needs health care. And he's like, what would any dad do? I gotta figure something out. And he said, you know, we asked him, how long did you think it would take? And I'm not, I'm not using his name on purpose, but he said, you know, maybe two weeks, and it ended up taking over six months for him to get to the border. And at one point, he was so dehydrated, he's looking for water. And he sees a gas station, but it's filled with Border Patrol. So he's describing, like, the feeling of thirsting to death while you're looking at water and not being able to drink it. And I think they found like a kiddie pool in a backyard, drank some water, kept moving. He eventually collapsed, unconscious, and that's how he was apprehended. And we met him. I mean, we're sitting listening to this dude, tears in his eyes, the whole time just thinking about his daughter and, sweet lord, I mean, you know, this, that's why the, not just using these polemics and these rhetoric of, you know, MS13, and rapists and murderers, I mean, that's why we need to have a better procedure, you know, process for people able to seek asylum and citizenship here. And, but anyway, it was, it was incredible. We stayed with his family, right, that had a ranch. And so they had like, multiple houses in the desert. And they took like, 15 of us in overnight, and they were a Mennonite family, by the way, so this is beautiful Anabaptist at your best. And so they, you know, have these houses that folks can use because they're on a route that many people are coming in. And, and so you know, we're talking and they said yeah, we just had some folks stay in one of the houses, and we said well, how'd that go, did they, you know, someone mentioned, you know, do they steal anything? They said no, no, no, they actually ended up doing our dishes as well as their dishes. So I kind of take that line with me, you know, these folks that crashed there, you know, because the house is left open with the, you know, the light on, you're welcome to stay here, and they stayed and did all the dishes and cleaned the house for them. But you know, I think that that, that fear is what we've got to really address. So much of our policies are, I mean, even this wall, you know, all of it so much is about fear. So we were, we were saying what would love look like and one of the powerful images you probably saw was a worship service along the wall where, you know, folks on the Mexico side and folks on the US side, sang songs to each other and then served each other communion by passing it through the wall. So I look at that, and I'm like, that is what we should be doing. Right? And you know, Dr. Martin Luther King--y'all asked about what should the church be doing--he had a great way of understanding this. He said, the church is not meant to be the master of the state or the servant of the state. The church is meant to be the conscience of the state. Come on, somebody, right? So that, that conscience, that's who we're meant to be. We're not the tool of the state. We're not, like, trying to wrestle our way to power of the state, we got a different way of thinking about things, but we are the moral conscience, we should be, in our society.
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Kyle:So I'm going to drag us back to our previous conversation for just a second. I'm still struggling with this"should be" versus "are," right, the reality of it. So let me make it really concrete, hypothetical here and just see how you answer this. Maybe this is an unfair question. I don't know. Let's say I'm a billionaire. And I come to you and I say, Shane, I'm gonna give you half a billion dollars, here's $500 million, you have to invest it in one place. Do you give that money to the church? And if not, where do you give it? And why? As it exists, like right now?
Shane:Well, I guess I would say I would give it to the work of the Kingdom, as Jesus would say, you know, so...
Kyle:Right. But let's be specific, who's doing that work?
Shane:Yeah. So for instance, when I wrote my first book, I didn't make a billion dollars, but I did set up a jubilee fund to share the money of that book. So when you buy The Irresistible Revolution, we disperse that money to about 200 different groups. And some of them are congregations like, hey, this, this mission that I just described, on the border is a Catholic mission. It's the Franciscans, right? I mean, it's old school, you know, but I would also give the money to the different missions that we visited, that are doing incredible work. And some of them are faith based, some of them are not, but they're doing the work of the Kingdom, you know. So I see that the Spirit works inside of the institutions and outside. I even see that in Jesus. He's going to synagogue, he's Jewish, and he's doing Passover. So, but he's also expanding where we think God is confined. Right? So he's healing people with mud and spit. He's doing the work of God in the streets. So I think that the answer to that, bro, would be for me, I would, I, where I see God at work in the church, I'd put the money there. Where I see God at work outside the church, I'd put the money there.
Randy:Yep.
Kyle:Alright, I will allow that evasion.
Randy:Yeah. Shane, I'm preaching through, just on a really practical level, I'm preaching through the Sermon on the Mount as we speak, right? I've been doing it for, for a couple months. And as, the further I go and the more I study and the more I reflect on the Sermon on the Mount, the more I realize how little of the Sermon on the Mount and how little of Jesus we actually have in our day to day Christian lives in our, in the church, really, honestly. And it's, it haunts me a little bit, even in my own life, right? I mean, the Sermon on the Mount is a hard ideology to reckon with and to follow. And, but when I think of who's done this well, I think of people like Mother Teresa, who you know, you spent time with, and we talked about, and I think of you, honestly, and the work that you've done, and, and doing things like setting up a jubilee fund when you write a book, who does that, and reckoning with the sermon on the mount and our everyday American life. What are your thoughts on followers of Jesus having Roth IRAs and saving for retirement? What are your thoughts on building personal wealth for myself or for ourselves and you know, trying to build a, build a business to be super successful and, you know, the, capitalism, the world that we live in sets itself against the Sermon on the Mount and the ideals of Jesus. How, how should we practically live and follow the Sermon on the Mount? Is there a place for building personal wealth? Is there a place for all these things that our our culture tells us to do?
Shane:Wow, well let me know when you figure that out. So I will say I'm working hard enough on the log in my own eye that I don't really have a lot of time to pick on other people's, you know, the speck in their eye. But, but, when, you know, in my own aspiration to be faithful to this, I find it really hard to stockpile for tomorrow while people don't have enough for today. And I mean, Jesus literally told a story about that, right, this guy that builds a barn to put all his stuff in and has so much stuff he's got to build a bigger barn, and God's just kinda like, naw, tear it all down, man, like, you don't even know what tomorrow holds, you know. And so this idea that we are not to, like, worry about tomorrow, but to live like the lilies and the sparrows. I mean, that's from the Sermon on the Mount, right? And it's absolutely why--I've got a, like, really big spider coming down over here, just so you know, and my wife left it because we, I'm living in a school bus right now, but we have these stinkbugs, and so she, my wife tells me last night, yeah, just so you know, there's some spiders in here, and I've left them because they're eating the stinkbugs; so I'm sure everybody wanted to know that, but I've got a war of stink bugs and spiders that are now my pets in here--but anyway, okay. So, but you know, so I
think, here's the tricky thing:we've so created this idolatry out of individualis that there's not a real safety net, for, of community, unless you're a part of like the Amish or the Mennonites, right? And I've sometimes joked that like when, if I get, if things get really bad, I'll just have the, go join the Bruderhof when I'm dying so they can take care of us, you know, because they have this infrastructure of community. And that's what, ideally, I think we want to build. When Jesus was telling his disciples to sell everything, if you look at like, I think it's Mark 10 where he says leave everything, and he says you will have 100 fold, right? So you're leaving your biological family, but you're joining a massive family. You're leaving your personal possessions, but you're entering a commonwealth. You're not going to own a house, but you're gonna have homes everywhere you go. Right. So it was this vision that like, we're, we're opening up our personal possessions, but we're joining this big family that's going to take care of each other. And we're trying to establish some of that in our little modest ways. Like, we have the compassion fund now called Common Change. I think it's commonchange.org, where we're sharing hundreds of thousands of dollars, whenever there's a crisis, we can help each other out, you know? We need things like that. I joined a community of folks that are sharing medical bills, because a lot of us didn't have health insurance for years and years and years. So we would every month get a newsletter of the medical bills of this group, we'd pool our money together, and we were meeting like, I think it was $15 million in medical bills every year at one point. So like, I think we need alternative infrastructures like that, that are communal based, that are, you know, the common good. And ideally, that's what our government should be, I think, folks that are trying to do their best to protect, make sure that everybody has the things that they need when they're functioning at their best, right. So yeah, so all that to say, like, that's, but there are ways that we can live into that vision, you know, by trying to create some of those alternative infrastructures, by living with less, you know, the old saying, like live simply so that others may simply live, I think is a beautiful one. And that's what Gandhi said, like, there's enough for everyone's need, but there's not enough for everyone's greed. And when you got like, I mean, sweet lord, we got like three billionaires now that own the same amount as 50 countries. Like that's, that's, that's crazy. Like, I think Bezos is making like $3,000 a second or something, like, it's like over $300 million every day. So those, like, the inequity between the rich and the poor is, is absolutely insane. And it's also like, why things like the Jubilee were originally created, right? Like God's like, you're gonna get this inequality. So, every, periodically you're gonna need to release everybody from debt. Set slaves free, like you're gonna need to, like, redistribute property. Imagine if we had a jubilee in America. I mean, that would, that would repair some things,
Randy:Which, unfortunately, there's no evidence that the Israelites actually practiced Jubilee, but idea of it is from God. And what I'm hearing is...
Shane:That's why I always quote my friend Chad Meyers, you know, he says Christians have never really done the Sermon on the Mount either, but it was still God's intention.
Randy:Yeah, absolutely. And what I'm hearing you say is you can't do that by yourself. You can't live out the Sermon on the Mount on a American individual basis. Communally, maybe we can.
Shane:Yeah, I think there's, there's some, there's, I don't distinguish between the personal and the communal because I think that's where some people end up going, like Jerry Falwell, Jr, for instance, he said, when they asked him about how he reconciles his loyalty to Trump and to Jesus and he said, I don't look to Jesus when it comes to shaping my political beliefs. So I think that, you know, this idea that Jesus just teaches us how to live as individuals, but, like, his teaching has no political implications, I think, I think that's, that, that doesn't make any sense to me, right? Jesus is teaching me yes, like, Shane Claiborne, if you see an immigrant or a homeless person, you need to welcome them, when you welcome them, you welcomed me. But also like, why, that same truth is, you know, that's true for our country as well. So, you know, I think politicians are not exempt from the Sermon on the Mount.
Randy:Yep.
Kyle:So we want to honor your time, but you said you're good with a few more questions, is that alright?
Shane:Yeah, yeah.
Kyle:Cool. So can we talk about the death penalty a little bit? This is something that you've advocated for probably, I've seen you speaking on this the most in the last several years of all the things that you're involved with. So can you share with us why you're committed to this issue? How it became important to you, why do you think it is that--maybe this is an overstatement but I don't think it is, when it comes up in class, this, in my classes that I teach, this seems to be the case--like, the kind of default position of most Americans is that the death penalty is just kind of an obvious good? Or if not a good, it's at least something that it makes some rational sense, and it should be there, even if it's just rarely used or something like that. So why do you, why are you so strongly against it? And why do you view it as an entailment of your Christian convictions to, to work against it?
Shane:Yeah, for sure. I'd love to talk about that a little bit. So I, you know, grew up grew up, like many Christians, calling myself pro-life, but then began to see how narrowly we thought about what it means to be pro-life, mostly only in terms of one issue of abortion, right? And I think a lot of pro-life folks would be more accurate to say they're pro-birth or anti-abortion, because on so many of these other life issues, we've been not the champions of life, but the obstacles. And what I, the reason I've done so much work on the death penalty and gun violence, these are my last two books, Executing Grace on the death penalty and Beating Guns on gun violence, is because, it's like an old Pogo cartoon where you go, we met the enemy, it's us. So like, the death penalty would not stand a chance in America if it weren't for Christians, almost 90% of executions happen in the Bible Belt. And where Christians are most concentrated is where the death penalty continues to hold on. And these are also the former Confederate states. So we can't miss that, you know, where the states that held on to slavery the longest are the same states that are holding on to the death penalty. And so all that's, you know, very, very troubling to me. But one of the reasons the death penalty is so important is because we worship an executed and risen Savior. And we're in danger of missing the entire point of the story, which is that Jesus put death on display, made a spectacle of the powers of death, in order to subvert it with love, forgiveness, and an empty tomb. And the whole point of that story is that no one is beyond redemption. Jesus is like, water poured on the electric chair, short circuiting the whole system of death. So now I think anytime we try to defend the death penalty, we betray and undermine the work of Jesus on the cross. And I know there are folks that are going to see that differently. And I was one of them. For instance, Russell Moore just reached out to me, we're gonna have a conversation, he asked me to talk to him about what he's got wrong on the death penalty. So I'm, Russell Moore, you know, formerly of the Southern Baptist Convention, I think we can say formally, like, that's his roots, you know, but I love that, we need better conversations on it. And, and there's so much at stake, right? There's so much at stake. There's people that are innocent, like Julius Jones and Rodney Reed, that I believe, without any doubt, are innocent of the crimes that they have been convicted. Folks like my friend Derek Jamison, who spent 20 years on death row before he was proved innocent and is now out, of course, but you know, like, how much do we trust broken, imperfect human systems with the irreversible power of death? And that's why some conservatives have problems with the death penalty, because it raises the question, how much do we trust the state, among other things, right, but I think it raises one of the most fundamental questions of our faith, so, you know, is anybody beyond redemption? Where, where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more. So do we really believe that stuff, right? Now the guns, the guns, I'll just say quickly, when I started looking at guns, the, the highest gun owning demographic in America are Christians, white evangelical Christians. We own guns at a higher rate than the general population. Two thirds of Americans, two thirds of Americans live without guns, two thirds. And yet, like one of the most armed groups in America are folks that are worshipping the Prince of Peace on Sunday and packing heat on Monday.
Kyle:Let's not kid ourselves. They're packing heat on Sunday, too.
Randy:Yeah.
Shane:Yes, they are. So, but you know, there are different versions of power. And one says, I'm willing to die. And the other says I'm willing to kill. One says, turn the other cheek. The other says, stand your ground. And so I think that's where we've really got to challenge not just the guns, but the logic, the fear, the militancy that comes, that really is behind our idolatry of guns. I mean, literally, we have scripture saying, don't put your trust in chariots and horses, but we sure are putting our trust in a Glock.
Kyle:Yeah, so I have a couple follow-ups about the death penalty, but before I get to that, part of your ministry is actually pounding guns into farm implements, right?
Shane:Yeah.
Kyle:Like gardening tools.
Shane:Absolutely. Yeah. Inspired by Isaiah and Micah, you know, that we'll beat our swords into plows and spears into pruning hooks. And let me just say that these are not disconnected. Right? Some of the most credible voices in the movement to abolish the death penalty are survivors of violence, murder victims' family members, who see violence is the problem, not the solution. And so like, while we've been on this, this call, I got a, Reverend Sharon Risher called, I didn't take her call. She's one of my heroes, but she, her mom was killed in Mother Emanuel AME Church, two of her cousins, her childhood friend, like, her family was killed by Dylan Roof when they were in Emanuel at Wednesday night prayer meeting, right? She's walked walked out of that an advocate for change, common sense gun law changes--we need to address the, the hatred, the racism, the violence, and the policies on guns. But she's also an abolitionist against the death penalty. She thinks Dylan Roof, he's so filled with hatred right now, like he doesn't need the electric chair, he needs to understand, he needs Jesus, you know, he needs to understand how big God's love is and that God's love can even heal him of his sins. So I mean, boy, that's that, I mean that, so these things are connected. And we've done gun transformations with Sharon Risher, as she was beating on the gun, she named all nine of the Emanuel Nine that were killed in that church. You know, we've seen folks that have been, have experienced some of the deepest pain, but they realize that the death penalty does not heal the wounds of violence. It just creates new ones.
Randy:Yeah. Oh, gosh. So Shane, I'm just going to wrap it up here. I mean, we've been talking. We've, we've been talking about, you know, the death penalty is in effect because of Christians, you've said. We've talked about how immigration so much grates against the, the, the modern church. We've talked about how all of these things that are just depressing, Christian nationalism and, and building walls and all of this stuff that just causes one to be pretty depressed about the state of the church in America right now. What gives you hope, in that, when you look at the church in America right now, Shane?
Shane:There's a lot of bad music out there, but I don't go to a, you know, a terrible concert and give up all music. I think the difference is that a bad concert doesn't do,
Randy:Yeah, yeah. like, real soul damage to you, you just walk away going that that was terrible, you know, but the church has done a lot of damage. And so I think we've got to begin with a posture of humility, and of confessing some of those things. But I also like, I think, you know, even in an abusive relationship, like you leave that, but you, you don't necessarily give up on love, you know, and I think that's where we've got to find a better version of Christianity. And this is nothing new, Frederick Douglass named this, you know? He said, there's, between the Christianity of this land and the Christianity of Christ, I see the widest possible difference. So this is nothing new. But I would say for a lot of people that are leaving one version of Christianity, that may not be the end of your faith, it may be the beginning of a better, more robust faith. So I am in, I'm stoked right now because I see a church that is rising up. It's, a lot of that's happening, in my purview, outside of white evangelicalism. But I mean, I think of Traci Blackmon in Ferguson after Michael Brown was killed and Reverend Barber in North Carolina and Michael and Ben McBride out West, Leslie Callahan in Philly, Michael Waters down in Texas, like, there's this, you know, the, there's folks in different traditions outside of the white evangelical, kind-of toxic Trump evangelicalism, that are shining the light of Jesus, they're fighting for justice, they're going to jail for the good trouble, like, those are the circles we need to keep leaning into. And, you know, I mean, it was true even for Jesus. His harshest words, like "brood of vipers," were for, were for the religious people. And so I think those contradictions are ancient. But we know, you know, God is, God is at work, God's bigger than the embarrassing things that we Christians have done in his name. So, thanks be to God. Amen.
Shane:It's good, y'all. Well, thanks for the conversation. Yeah, let's do it again sometime.
Randy:Yes. Shane Claiborne, thank you for joining us. It's been a pleasure and everyone, Irresistible Revolution, Jesus for President, there's a number of different amazing resources that Shane can just help round out and center you more in Jesus. So thanks for, thanks for sharing yourself with us, Shane.
Shane:Absolutely. Appreciate you guys. Yeah.
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