A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Mixing a cocktail of philosophy, theology, and spirituality.
We're a pastor and a philosopher who have discovered that sometimes pastors need philosophy, and sometimes philosophers need pastors. We tackle topics and interview guests that straddle the divide between our interests.
Who we are:
Randy Knie (Co-Host) - Randy is the founding and Lead Pastor of Brew City Church in Milwaukee, WI. Randy loves his family, the Church, cooking, and the sound of his own voice. He drinks boring pilsners.
Kyle Whitaker (Co-Host) - Kyle is a philosophy PhD and an expert in disagreement and philosophy of religion. Kyle loves his wife, sarcasm, kindness, and making fun of pop psychology. He drinks childish slushy beers.
Elliot Lund (Producer) - Elliot is a recovering fundamentalist. His favorite people are his wife and three boys, and his favorite things are computers and hamburgers. Elliot loves mixing with a variety of ingredients, including rye, compression, EQ, and bitters.
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Converging Traditions, Toxic Environments, and Healthy Spiritual Practices: An Interview with Aaron Niequist
Aaron Niequist has been to the top of the evangelical mountain and has experienced first hand the goodness and the toxicity and the pain that is often a byproduct of that world. He's come out of the belly of the evangelical beast without the bitterness and cynicism that many of us fall victim to. He doesn't want to label himself an Ex-vangelical. He's dreaming of living in and creating spiritual places and practices that are a convergence of the best of a number of Christian traditions, and it's beautiful. Check out his 2018 book The Eternal Current.
In this episode, we tasted Eagle Park Brewing's BOTM's Up and Big BOTM's. They're delicious.
To skip the tasting, go to 4:43.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
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Cheers!
NOTE: This transcript is for the unedited video version of this conversation, so what you see here will not match the audio-only podcast version exactly. For the video version, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nUIgig8a2M&ab_channel=APastorandaPhilosopherWalkintoaBar
[Music]
00:04
aaron niequist thank you so much for
00:06
joining us on a pastor and philosopher
00:07
walk into a bar
00:09
glad to be here
00:10
so one thing we like to ask our guests
00:12
before we get rolling because we're a
00:13
pastor and philosopher walking to a bar
00:15
is are you drinking anything you want to
00:17
tell us about
00:19
i don't know if i need to tell you about
00:20
it i'm just drinking a uh quite mediocre
00:24
red wine that's good and uh but good way
00:26
to end the day yeah
00:28
thursday thursday night that's good
00:30
nothing to remark upon though
00:32
good all right aaron can you tell our
00:35
listeners the few who don't know about
00:37
you and your world and what you do and
00:38
where you are could you just tell us
00:39
about your world
00:41
yeah like not the story but like where
00:44
where we'll get to the story yeah yeah
00:46
yeah who are you
00:47
yeah so so currently living in manhattan
00:49
in the chelsea neighborhood
00:51
and we had moved here three years ago
00:53
for me to become uh a student at general
00:56
theological seminary to get my masters
00:59
and uh we absolutely
01:02
love it here and so we are trying to
01:04
find every way to stay um and so this
01:07
year i graduated last spring and so this
01:10
year i've been jumping into a number of
01:13
different things a couple different
01:15
communities here in chelsea and it's
01:17
mostly at the intersection of like music
01:20
and art and formation
01:22
um and maybe throw liturgy in there so
01:25
the things that we do together
01:27
that help form us into the way of christ
01:30
sorry yeah so you're now a master of
01:32
theology
01:34
i have about 100 questions i feel like a
01:36
master of nothing um but yes i did take
01:39
those courses i can't remember the name
01:41
of the school that you just said but is
01:42
what what uh affiliation or denomination
01:45
it's in a pisc it's an episcopal school
01:48
and it's actually a real historic uh
01:50
apparently the story is before general
01:53
was built like a hundred and something
01:54
years ago you had to actually go
01:57
um over to the uk to become a priest and
02:00
so they built this seminary to train uh
02:03
episcopal priests for the states so i'm
02:06
not a pesky
02:08
loving being a part of a
02:10
new and strange tradition strange to me
02:13
you know
02:14
yeah
02:16
cool so we had a look at your book
02:18
before the interview thanks for sending
02:20
all right um so so in the book that you
02:23
wrote that came out what three years ago
02:24
something like that the eternal current
02:26
right right around then yep yeah so at
02:29
the beginning of that you relay a story
02:31
about your doubting process that began
02:33
around 2002
02:34
and the journey you've been on since
02:36
then of transforming your view of what
02:38
christian practices so can you give our
02:40
listeners sort of a cliff's notes
02:41
version of that story yeah
02:44
um maybe a better way to say it is my
02:46
first doubting experience yeah
02:49
one of one of many that on the cycle of
02:51
belief and unbelief and but yeah it was
02:54
i had grown up in a christian family
02:56
christian
02:58
uh college and then got a job at a
03:00
christian church and then about like a
03:02
year in i'm a worship leader
03:04
um i realize i barely believe any of the
03:07
songs that i'm asking people to sing and
03:10
it was
03:11
um you know right you know 15 years ago
03:14
now so it's easy to look back and talk
03:16
about because you know how it goes but
03:18
it was
03:19
a a terrifying
03:22
moment both professionally like what am
03:24
i gonna do but way deeper like this was
03:27
like
03:28
deconstructing like grandma's house like
03:30
this was this is how i grew up this is
03:32
everything i knew and
03:34
um
03:35
it was very scary
03:37
and
03:38
um
03:39
you know the long and the short of it is
03:42
um broke
03:43
me out of some things that had died a
03:46
long time ago
03:48
and so when i look back i i'm so
03:51
grateful for that moment but again it
03:53
it's it's easy to talk about the the
03:57
positive outcome
03:59
um but when you're in it it's just like
04:01
a punch to the gut so
04:04
yeah yeah
04:05
yeah so many of us can identify with
04:07
that exact moment that that experience
04:10
um in in the book as you described your
04:12
faith crisis aaron you mentioned how
04:14
each person's journey is unique but this
04:16
wrestling and this ache and maybe even
04:18
this kind of
04:20
moments of doubt and uncertainty and
04:22
unbelief is universal you say yeah can
04:25
you explain that because
04:27
i think of and i i'm perplexed by some
04:30
people not perplexed
04:32
but i just wonder about some people that
04:33
i know
04:34
in my family or yeah in my church or
04:36
whatever who have this a little bit more
04:38
fundamentalist rooted kind of faith
04:40
journey that doesn't give a hint of
04:43
doubt or uncertainty or shaky ground
04:45
with your faith and i just don't know
04:47
what to make of it do you really think
04:48
it is universal
04:50
absolutely
04:52
um i
04:53
it makes me think of the writer of the
04:56
book of romans
04:58
talking about all creation groans
05:01
and i i truly think there is a universal
05:04
not just
05:05
christian people all creation groans
05:09
um the world is not how it was meant to
05:11
be we know this there is more we we
05:16
we know this or desperately want to know
05:19
this so i i think the
05:21
the ache is um universal
05:24
certainly you're naming that we're all
05:26
at a different
05:28
place on the process of getting in touch
05:31
with that ache
05:32
we humans are spectacular
05:35
at ignoring reality
05:37
even our own reality
05:39
and um so i think uh some people haven't
05:42
got there yet and then some
05:46
don't ever get there um i can think of a
05:49
couple people in my life
05:51
who made it into their 70s
05:53
never
05:54
allowing
05:56
some of those cracks
05:57
to see the light of day
05:59
and um
06:01
you know a lot of times that comes out
06:02
of trauma that comes out of growing up
06:04
in a house where you were never allowed
06:06
to ask a question or show weakness but
06:10
um what a loss for them to have to hold
06:13
together something they know
06:15
is not the whole story but it's
06:17
unthinkable to start over yeah one of
06:21
our friends and former guest brian
06:23
mclaren would call that simplicity and i
06:25
do think like you're saying some people
06:26
are really content and not only content
06:29
desperately hold on to that simplicity
06:31
like that's complexity perplexity
06:33
yeah seems
06:35
terrifying yeah if i if i let one crack
06:38
show the whole thing
06:41
you know uh crumbles
06:43
and that's terrifying we just have to
06:45
empathize with that that's a really
06:47
scary thought of using the whole thing
06:50
especially when it's like concretely i
06:52
will lose my job
06:55
right right this is what i believe but
06:57
conquer like how i make a living my job
07:00
my all my relationships
07:03
my family relationship
07:05
and then depending on how anchored you
07:08
know your faith is in
07:10
more fundamentalist or even conservative
07:12
sides
07:14
you know we're talking eternity do i
07:16
want to burn in the lake of fire or do i
07:19
want to float on a cloud i mean that's
07:22
like
07:23
those are some stakes right there so and
07:25
i'm i'm not i'm not being glib about it
07:27
that that is
07:29
um what many of us are taught those are
07:32
stakes so
07:34
this is not to be
07:35
um engaged with lightly yeah so when you
07:39
had that initial
07:40
crisis experience or doubting experience
07:42
or whatever how long would you say you
07:44
were in a period of pretending or
07:47
caring because you didn't stop being a
07:49
worship leader
07:50
right well for good and for bad and this
07:53
is some of my enneagram four i'm a
07:56
terrible pretender yeah um my wife would
07:58
say i have zero poker face
08:01
and um
08:03
and again that causes a lot of
08:05
tumult in my life but i i also think
08:07
it's uh can be a positive so i was not
08:10
able to pretend very long i'm a really
08:13
bad with a big smile
08:15
um
08:16
but i did have a job to do and so
08:19
thankfully i had a boss uh the pastor at
08:22
the time that i could tell like share
08:24
this with and he was walking with me and
08:27
even one night he said you know what it
08:30
seems like this might not be the best
08:32
thing for you to do i used to play
08:33
guitar back in my early days let me let
08:36
me do the songs tonight and then you can
08:38
just have the week off i mean it's just
08:40
so profoundly meaningful and i'm
08:42
learning as i talk to other friends
08:44
unbelievably rare
08:47
most people in my position admit to a
08:49
fraction of a doubt
08:52
and
08:53
then are working at starbucks and um
08:57
you know what what
08:58
what does that say about our churches
09:01
that you know it's all fine as long as
09:04
you believe everything
09:06
and then if you even question
09:08
anything you're out yeah um
09:11
this is a tragedy
09:13
yeah i think it's one of the reasons why
09:15
we see
09:16
crazy declining numbers of young people
09:18
leaving the church leaving the faith
09:20
it doesn't have to be that's what drives
09:22
me absolutely
09:23
yeah yeah
09:25
yeah
09:26
so in the book maybe this is the thesis
09:28
of the book actually you write that
09:29
christianity is a practice based faith
09:31
what most of the book is taking up
09:33
describing what those practices are so
09:35
yeah um
09:36
what does that mean and how is it
09:38
different from
09:40
how most maybe most christians
09:41
understand or at least a lot of the
09:43
christians that we've grown up around
09:45
right there yeah or in your church who
09:47
view it as more of a belief system or
09:48
something yeah great question um
09:51
at the end of the sermon on the mount
09:53
a collection of jesus uh greatest
09:56
teachings matthew 5 6 and 7. jesus says
09:59
the famous
10:00
you know um
10:02
you know if you build your house on the
10:03
rock and all that
10:05
it i sang the song in sunday school i
10:07
knew that whole like thing but i didn't
10:10
realize that what jesus is actually
10:12
saying is
10:13
if you hear my words
10:15
and put them into practice
10:18
you are like a man who builds his house
10:20
upon the rock if you don't if you hear
10:22
my words and don't put them into
10:24
practice you're like a man who builds
10:26
his house upon the sand
10:27
and that to me was scandalous
10:30
because um what i had heard is if you
10:34
hear jesus words and believe they're
10:36
true
10:37
and say a correct prayer about them
10:40
then you're building your life on the
10:41
rock if you just believe it really
10:44
strongly if you align your brain and
10:46
your thinking you're in
10:48
and i think beliefs matter i think it
10:51
matters what we believe but that's just
10:54
not the invitation of jesus
10:56
um jesus didn't say here is some truth
10:59
believe it
11:00
jesus said i am the truth follow me
11:04
and so that has just been
11:06
um
11:08
the implications for that for me at
11:10
least are vast
11:12
so you know you take something uh
11:15
simple like oh not not simple let's say
11:18
how do i begin not going all the way in
11:21
um i mean you take something like gossip
11:23
you know uh
11:26
spiritual teachers and the scriptures
11:28
don't say don't gossip or god will
11:31
punish you
11:32
they say
11:34
don't gossip because it will
11:36
it'll wreck your relationships
11:39
so it's not like oh i better believe
11:41
believe god gossip is bad
11:43
it's inviting us into the best way to
11:46
live
11:47
dallas willard says jesus up jesus
11:49
teachings are not observations about
11:52
what should happen they're simple
11:54
observations about how the universe
11:56
actually works
11:58
and
12:00
so i think the invitation
12:02
is not to believe correctly
12:05
it's to join christ
12:08
in the way that jesus has invited us to
12:10
be
12:12
it's beautiful it's good um so within
12:16
you know you
12:18
with other friends kind of pioneered a
12:20
new kind of expression within an
12:22
evangelical mega church that you were
12:24
working at and you called it the
12:25
practice right um
12:27
and you had you said you had three kind
12:29
of main focuses of of each gathering and
12:32
i
12:33
get paid you know one of the things i
12:35
get paid to do is to preach sermons and
12:37
to
12:38
you know teach the bible and all that
12:41
stuff
12:41
and you say in
12:44
when you're talking about the practice
12:45
you say
12:47
that you describe teaching that leads to
12:49
practice is the kind of teaching that
12:51
you were trying to
12:53
bring about in the practice in this
12:54
gathering
12:55
teaching that leads to practice now
12:57
being my cynical self i just want to be
13:00
like well that just sounds like
13:02
preaching that's act has a call to
13:03
action but what tell me is there
13:05
something different about teaching that
13:07
leads to practice
13:08
um
13:09
than a normal sermon
13:11
yeah that's great um i think the core of
13:14
it is what is the intention
13:17
of that time
13:19
okay um
13:21
there is
13:22
there are many times that i've heard a
13:25
sermon and frankly given a sermon
13:28
where the takeaway truly is if you peel
13:31
everything back the takeaway is i want
13:34
you to believe these things that i'm
13:36
telling you
13:37
so the end goal wow people agreed or
13:40
believed or even shifted their mind and
13:43
again i i hope it doesn't sound like i'm
13:45
anti-teaching i think teaching has a an
13:48
incredible role to play unless it sees
13:51
itself as the end okay and then i think
13:54
it's i think it can be really unhelpful
13:57
but a teaching that leads to practice
14:00
is more of a springboard
14:02
um the end goal is not all right are we
14:05
clear everybody believe that
14:07
the end goal is
14:09
are you now empowered to do that
14:13
tuesday morning or wednesday afternoon
14:16
or thursday so an example um an example
14:19
that i love to use because it's
14:21
it's been so uh
14:24
kind of provocative in my life and then
14:27
really helpful
14:28
is the whole idea of forgiving those who
14:31
have wounded us
14:33
um
14:34
i've heard
14:35
so many sermons on forgiveness thank god
14:39
because it's one of the central themes
14:41
of healthy of a healthy christian
14:43
spirituality
14:46
but just hearing a sermon that tells me
14:50
i should forgive
14:52
so and so
14:54
um
14:55
if that's the end goal
14:57
then not only does it not help me it
14:59
actually makes me feel worse because i
15:01
don't know how to do it
15:03
um
15:04
but
15:05
if we do
15:07
if we teach about why it's so central so
15:09
this is why teaching is so important
15:12
but then also give people the tools to
15:15
do it
15:16
i think it's revolutionary quick story i
15:18
was meeting with my spiritual director
15:20
he's a jesuit priest i was telling him
15:22
there's someone in my life that i i like
15:24
was thinking about how i could yell at
15:27
them you know really a lot of resentment
15:29
and we talked about forgiveness he told
15:31
me the things that i knew but good
15:33
reminders
15:34
and then he said aaron we have a
15:37
four-step
15:38
practice
15:39
that helps pray these prayers and
15:42
release this person to god can i tell
15:44
you about it
15:45
and i'm like sure so he told me the four
15:47
steps and i was like oh man i could
15:48
actually do that so i told him you know
15:50
this week i'm gonna find some time to do
15:53
this prayer and he goes
15:56
let's do it now
15:58
like no i'm not i'm not ready now but
16:00
he's like let's do it now
16:02
and so we spent the next 15 or 20
16:04
minutes
16:05
practicing this prayer of releasing this
16:08
person
16:09
and it was difficult and i didn't like
16:12
it but it was beautiful
16:15
and then i walked out not only knowing i
16:17
should forgive this person
16:20
not only having an experience of
16:23
beginning to crack my fists open just a
16:26
little bit but now i had a four-step
16:29
practice
16:30
that i could put jesus words into
16:33
practice all week long and honestly i've
16:35
prayed that
16:36
200 times since then for that one
16:40
particular person and for a number of
16:42
other situations so yeah sorry it's kind
16:44
of a long answer but no it's beautiful
16:46
it's good actually i'd love to
16:48
dig a little bit more into that in the
16:50
context of the uh especially like the
16:53
what's traditionally the sunday
16:54
gathering the in that part because then
16:56
there's a beautiful outflow the two but
16:59
this actually
17:00
goes back a long way i don't i don't
17:02
expect it all that you would remember
17:04
this but it was probably a decade ago
17:05
that we met for the first time and i i
17:08
came and i i asked if you would have
17:10
lunch i was working at a mega church the
17:12
time you were
17:14
in chicago area at the mega church that
17:16
you were working at and in my role
17:19
i identified a lot
17:20
in between right yeah we did i remember
17:23
driving up yeah
17:24
so yeah yeah but the thing that made me
17:26
reach out to you for that first time was
17:28
i was in a role where it was my job to
17:31
you know to produce the the sunday
17:33
spectacle in a way that would bring
17:35
people in
17:36
uh to
17:37
uh to figure out how to create something
17:38
compelling that would direct people to
17:40
that you know bring them to the foot of
17:42
the pulpit yep in a way where then they
17:45
were receptive to the sermon and then
17:46
when the sermon's over you close it out
17:48
with uh a good emotional piece that's
17:51
gonna uh drive those words home so
17:55
from that reality what i what i saw
17:59
uh was
18:00
you searching or exploring these ways of
18:03
creating these gatherings where it's you
18:05
talk about practice space but it's like
18:07
the connection that was really helpful
18:09
for me it's almost it's like a rehearsal
18:10
like we're actually
18:12
we're going through these uh
18:14
these things as a community and i
18:16
started to see and understand like
18:18
there's maybe there's something
18:19
different to our gatherings than
18:21
spectacle yeah and maybe there's an
18:23
appropriate center point other than the
18:25
sermon
18:26
as as you've spent a lot of time
18:29
developing
18:30
those types of of
18:33
thoughts and then flowing gatherings out
18:34
of those what does that actually look
18:36
like
18:37
as a worship leader or whatever whatever
18:41
break out of that box whatever whatever
18:43
it is
18:44
now that that we can do instead
18:47
yeah uh what does that look like in the
18:49
in the thought process and in the
18:51
planning and then in the execution of
18:53
that type of a thing
18:54
yeah oh great question well i mean the
18:58
the simple answer is i tried like almost
19:01
every page of the book is is literally
19:04
trying to wrestle that um but let me
19:07
tell a story and then maybe just a
19:09
couple specifics
19:10
um
19:12
and i think i shared the story in the
19:14
book imagine going to a fitness center
19:17
and saying
19:18
um i'm out of shape but i signed up for
19:21
the new york marathon in six months
19:24
would you help me get ready for this
19:26
marathon
19:27
and imagine they said wonderful we'd
19:29
love to help you come back to this back
19:32
room we have this band that's going to
19:34
play a bunch of songs and then we have a
19:36
marathon expert who's going to give a
19:39
lecture on running marathons sounds way
19:41
better than running
19:42
[Laughter]
19:45
and so yeah so you go back there and the
19:47
band is great and you're all fired up
19:50
for running and then the the marathon
19:52
runner gives you the three steps to how
19:53
to run a marathon and you're like this
19:54
was amazing and then they say come back
19:57
next week we'll do it again come back
19:58
next week we'll do it again come back
20:00
next week
20:02
it won't take you very long to realize
20:04
you are no closer to actually running
20:08
the marathon
20:09
than you were you're inspired you're
20:10
fired up and that has value so i'm not
20:13
anti
20:14
the inspiration and even the
20:17
let's talk about things
20:19
but at a certain point
20:21
someone would have to say hey come join
20:24
me on the mat here
20:26
let me teach you you know your
20:27
hamstrings
20:29
they're going to take a beating let me
20:31
teach you a couple stretches that help
20:34
get your hamstrings strong enough to be
20:36
able to run all right let's talk about
20:38
aerobic let's talk
20:40
okay yeah obviously the analogy breaks
20:42
down at a certain point
20:43
but you know as my friend mark skandra
20:46
was the first one who i had heard start
20:48
talking about church
20:50
as gymnasium
20:52
we have churches as classroom
20:55
we have church as concert hall
20:58
we have church i'm i'm learning in these
21:00
circles as kind of preservation society
21:04
um
21:05
but what i think the world desperately
21:08
needs is church as gymnasium where we
21:11
learn
21:12
how to put jesus words into practice
21:15
and so for us at the practice
21:18
the night was broken up in three
21:21
parts there was an opening liturgy that
21:23
involved singing that involved the
21:25
scripture the scriptural text prayers
21:27
prayer for the world kind of what you'd
21:29
imagine in a
21:31
um
21:33
kind of anglican kind of evangelical
21:36
kind of progressive kind of
21:38
catholic
21:40
liturgy okay
21:41
and then the middle section was a
21:43
teaching that led to a practice
21:45
like you had mentioned and what it meant
21:48
is we we said the teaching can be 10 to
21:50
12 minutes
21:52
which for people who are used to
21:54
preaching 45 is excruciating
21:57
um and for just getting done with my
21:59
introduction
22:00
right right and for everyone listening
22:03
it's such a gift
22:06
because
22:07
in the world we live in
22:09
um
22:10
i
22:11
i'm not trying to like be controversial
22:13
over but like we don't learn best by
22:17
large blocks
22:19
of lecture
22:20
that's not how our brains are wired
22:22
especially in like the internet age and
22:26
so we learn by interaction we learn by
22:29
uh co-creation we learn from
22:33
smaller
22:34
[Music]
22:35
ideas and then okay so
22:38
um
22:39
and so we said
22:40
you know the teacher you have one idea
22:43
and it's got to propel us
22:45
into then a practice which then we'd
22:48
spend 15 to 20 minutes doing the
22:50
practice so like the the forgiveness
22:52
example um we would talk about why it's
22:55
why forgiveness is so important the
22:58
scriptural grounding a story that helps
23:01
us and then
23:03
now go ahead put your papers down i want
23:05
to guide you through this four-step
23:08
practice and then so that was the middle
23:10
movement and then the final movement
23:12
we'd gather around the eucharist table
23:15
and we'd break the bread and the wine
23:18
and then that would send us out into the
23:20
world and i would end every gathering
23:22
with remember
23:24
sunday is not the main event
23:27
your actual life is the main event so
23:30
this week as you practice remember this
23:33
for you know four-part forgiveness
23:36
prayer is there someone you want to keep
23:38
praying for and we'd like talk about how
23:40
to
23:40
propel into the into the world so that's
23:43
a little framework was that good yeah
23:45
enough especially yeah absolutely i mean
23:47
it's a perfect segue into the next
23:48
question that i had
23:51
in the book you seem to have
23:53
really found a profound depth and
23:55
transformational experience in the
23:56
eucharist itself
23:58
centering all of it in a very catholic
24:01
way
24:02
the gatherings around the eucharist i
24:04
love the eucharist i love centering in
24:06
our practice i would love to do it more
24:08
um
24:09
especially
24:11
in that protestant style of just adding
24:13
it in every once in a while because
24:14
jesus told us to you know
24:16
however i haven't had that consistent
24:19
profound experience and encounter with
24:20
the eucharist in ways that my catholic
24:22
friends do and that your book described
24:24
i don't understand
24:26
the idea of basing a whole gathering
24:28
around
24:29
the bread and the cup so what am i
24:31
missing what what makes that moment in
24:34
practice so meaningful for you yeah
24:36
millions of other people
24:38
yeah well i mean that's the the first
24:40
place to start i mean i i cause i grew
24:42
up in the same way we would do
24:44
um
24:45
communion on occasion
24:47
and it was a
24:48
uh
24:49
a meaningful way to remember what jesus
24:52
did
24:53
it was a memorial it was think it was
24:55
looking back um at the best i would
24:58
spend some time thinking about my sin
25:00
that put jesus on the cross and then
25:02
thank
25:03
uh jesus for paying that price so kind
25:05
of in the substitutionary atonement
25:08
centric
25:09
way of believing
25:10
and um there are some some deep truth to
25:14
that
25:14
um
25:16
but i think as i looked around to our
25:19
our fellow christians of other streams
25:23
many many traditions i would i would say
25:26
most traditions christian traditions
25:30
center the eucharist
25:32
i mean our catholic friends
25:34
going to mass
25:35
is receiving
25:37
is going to the table that's why you go
25:41
and so it just it kind of piqued my
25:44
interest like why what's going on there
25:47
and i i mean
25:50
i could ramble for 10 minutes um
25:53
i am
25:54
only scratching the surface
25:56
of this mystery the book i would
25:58
probably recommend is for the life of
26:00
the world by alexander schmemann
26:04
and he is uh an orthodox christian and
26:08
talks about
26:09
kind of the sacramental imagination of
26:12
what is happening
26:14
um at the table and in the liturgy it's
26:16
a
26:17
mind-blowing bending book
26:20
maybe i would say one thing um ian kron
26:22
has he ever been on your podcast or we
26:24
have not had him no no yeah
26:27
just a just an awesome guy and uh
26:31
was a evangelical pastor for many years
26:33
then became an episcopal priest and he
26:36
came to the practice and did a whole
26:38
night on the eucharist
26:39
and it was the it was the teaching
26:42
and then he walked us through every step
26:46
of the eucharistic liturgy here's why we
26:49
do this here's what i mean it was just
26:51
crazy but the moment that stuck with us
26:55
right at the end right as we're about to
26:57
approach the table he goes now remember
27:00
you never
27:01
take communion
27:03
and we're like
27:04
what take that's what we do he goes
27:07
it can only be received
27:11
he said taking
27:12
is what they did in the garden of eden
27:16
but receiving
27:17
is what's going to put the whole world
27:19
back together
27:20
okay
27:21
and i mean i remember just there's just
27:23
a hush and he knew it and we just sat in
27:26
silence for a moment
27:27
and so there's something that's going on
27:30
in the table
27:31
that's not just thinking about what
27:33
jesus did
27:34
but is getting swept up in what jesus
27:37
does
27:39
there is a present
27:41
reality there is you know and obviously
27:43
is jesus only present at the table of
27:46
course not god is everywhere god fills
27:49
you know it is in god we live move and
27:51
have our being but i think there is
27:53
something at the table that helps us
27:56
become present
27:58
to the presence of christ that has been
28:00
with us all along so it
28:03
um good
28:05
yeah that's good
28:07
you got another one elliot
28:12
yeah i uh
28:14
one of the concepts from the book again
28:17
that that really has stuck out to me is
28:19
this concept of the balanced spiritual
28:21
diet yeah
28:23
yeah
28:24
uh
28:25
the ways that often were we're serving
28:27
just a few you know probably just just
28:29
the
28:30
the very tip of the the spiritual food
28:32
pyramid
28:33
right the easy stuff the the fun stuff
28:36
the sugary stuff
28:38
um especially as as worship leaders but
28:41
i think that's the the temptation as
28:43
everybody in in their spiritual journey
28:45
is to to find those things that are the
28:47
easiest and most palatable yep uh can
28:50
you just describe that concept a little
28:51
bit yeah
28:52
and dig into i think the the
28:54
alternatives probably go deeply into
28:56
what we've already discussed but just
28:58
help us tie that concept together
29:01
yeah that's actually a phrase for my
29:03
wife i
29:05
in my um years at mars hill we were
29:08
trying to move from
29:10
what five songs are we gonna sing
29:13
to what worship communal journey are we
29:16
gonna go on to
29:18
and i'm telling you even just shifting
29:20
that framing question
29:22
changed everything because it wasn't
29:24
plugging songs into the slot it was
29:27
thinking like a story a narrative
29:29
where are we going to go together
29:31
and so once we kind of discerned the
29:33
story of that sunday
29:35
then we would say all right what helps
29:36
us begin the story is there a prayer is
29:38
there a song is there a
29:41
meditation what it and a lot of it was
29:43
still singing but then we'd all we do
29:45
these other things too things we were
29:47
learning from our anglican friends from
29:48
our catholic friends from our
29:50
pentecostal friends and
29:51
and so my wife shawna was saying why are
29:54
we doing
29:55
all these different things why aren't we
29:56
just singing anymore and i was trying to
29:58
explain and that's when she said oh so
30:01
you're trying to serve us a
30:02
well-balanced meal every sunday
30:05
and it was so profound for me because i
30:08
realized that i i had served one kind of
30:11
meal
30:12
for the last like 15 years every sunday
30:16
wondering why the community wasn't
30:18
getting healthier
30:19
and
30:21
to this day i think it was actually a
30:23
pretty healthy meal i don't i don't
30:24
think it was just
30:26
um junk food
30:28
but it was missing some fundamental food
30:32
groups
30:33
that we would never
30:34
ever engage communally one obvious one
30:39
is lament
30:42
almost a third of the psalms
30:45
are laments
30:47
and do you know what percentage of the
30:49
top 100 ccli worship song
30:55
i'll tell you
30:56
zero percent
30:58
um it's just not what we do
31:00
so
31:01
you just have to ask in the same way
31:03
with with food you know if if a person
31:07
never ate fiber
31:10
what would happen to their diet you know
31:11
or if you never had calcium what would
31:15
happen
31:15
well i'll tell you what happens with an
31:18
entire
31:20
movement
31:21
that never
31:22
practices lament in a healthy way
31:26
um
31:27
really really toxic things
31:29
um
31:30
and so you know what a loss and so it
31:34
just made us it made us wonder like what
31:36
else are we missing
31:38
and there were a couple other things
31:39
that surfaced at least in our community
31:41
uh at that time we we
31:44
you know especially early we had we
31:46
never did a confession of sin that felt
31:48
catholic that felt shameful
31:51
but it doesn't have to be
31:53
um confessing our sin is naming reality
31:57
it's it's trusting god enough to say
32:00
here's what's true
32:03
is grace big enough even for this and
32:06
thank god it is
32:07
and so we started practicing confession
32:09
and then receiving a word of
32:12
assurance we started praying not just
32:15
for what was happening in the room or in
32:17
our community we started praying for
32:20
things going on in the world
32:22
um it sounds really simple but it
32:25
shifted that from all that matters is
32:28
what's happening in these four walls say
32:30
you know what god loves
32:32
the world and we're this tiny little
32:35
part of it
32:36
um so all these different practices just
32:40
expanded brought you know again that
32:42
every algae breaks down but brought the
32:44
different nutrients and this
32:46
well-balanced diet um
32:48
in i think what was a a pretty helpful
32:51
way
32:52
so related to what you just said about
32:54
praying for the world and all the stuff
32:56
going on in the world um it would seem
32:59
inconsistent with what you've been
33:00
describing to stop at a prayer right so
33:03
what role do you think working for like
33:06
social change and social justice and
33:09
structural equity
33:11
what role does that kind of
33:13
practice right because it can't be done
33:14
by thinking or praying about it what
33:16
role does that play in the in in
33:18
christian practice itself
33:19
um is being involved in a concrete
33:22
specified way in a political process a
33:25
feature of church as you envision it yep
33:30
i mean a
33:31
massive massive question um a couple
33:34
quick answers and then we can dive in as
33:37
as deeply as you want to go um
33:40
i truly think
33:41
um
33:43
if a church is not political
33:46
it is not living out the mandate to love
33:50
its neighbor as itself how can we say we
33:53
love our neighbor and we don't care
33:55
about the very real issues
33:58
that are harming them
34:01
now when a church becomes partisan
34:04
then all sorts of
34:07
lunacy
34:08
starts sneaking in
34:10
so i think the distinction between
34:13
political which just means having to do
34:15
with how a society organism organizes
34:18
itself
34:19
is critical
34:21
um but partisan especially these days is
34:26
is really toxic so
34:28
now how do you discern
34:30
where one ends and the other one begins
34:32
that's truly a matter of discernment
34:35
um
34:36
but you know i'll just speak from my
34:39
background as you know i've spent most
34:42
of my life
34:43
in as a white male
34:46
in the suburbs um
34:49
politics don't affect us very much
34:53
we are insulated by our privilege
34:56
and by the fact that we are over
34:59
represented in almost every power
35:02
structure
35:03
so it's easy for us to say oh leave the
35:07
politics out there
35:09
um
35:11
but um
35:13
you don't have to get outside of
35:16
uh
35:17
my little bubble very far to realize
35:20
that these policies
35:22
profoundly affect
35:24
so many different layers of life and so
35:28
yeah can't pretend to love our neighbor
35:30
if we don't care about the things that
35:32
affect them
35:33
yeah
35:34
just dig a tiny bit deeper can you give
35:36
maybe an example of how
35:38
that has worked in your
35:40
pr in the practice or in your um
35:44
experience of leading liturgy like what
35:45
does it look like when you
35:48
give people tools or help them reframe
35:51
how they think about it or i mean i'm
35:53
guessing you don't say or maybe you do
35:55
here's who you should vote for
35:57
but yeah what does it look like
35:58
specifically not not that but i'll tell
36:01
you what um i was still on staff at
36:04
willow and still leading the practice
36:07
excuse me when um donald trump was
36:11
elected in in 2016.
36:13
and the sunday after the election we we
36:16
had been that fall moving through the
36:18
beatitudes
36:19
um
36:20
was blessed are the peacemakers
36:23
so we had four days from that election
36:28
to then gather together and we had um we
36:31
had some trump people in our community
36:33
who are really excited and celebrating
36:35
that day
36:36
we had some people who were just
36:39
you know devastated and
36:41
and and really scared for the country
36:45
and then we had a number of people in
36:46
between just saying i don't know what to
36:48
do with all this
36:49
um
36:50
but i thought man
36:53
of course i'm not going to choose a
36:56
partisan one against the other
36:58
but
36:59
um we're going to engage this head on
37:03
and so we talked about
37:05
um
37:06
the
37:07
uh trying to put ourselves in each
37:10
other's shoes
37:12
um we had one of the members of our
37:14
community is a fiery prophetic
37:17
wonderful
37:19
latina woman
37:21
and she just
37:22
said can i tell you
37:24
what it's been like in my community
37:26
with this kind of rhetoric
37:29
and um we actually asked her to write a
37:32
prophetic prayer
37:33
and then we asked father michael to
37:35
write a priestly prayer
37:38
because we feel like both are
37:39
desperately necessary the priests help
37:43
us
37:43
see each other helps us come together
37:46
helps us
37:48
be a part of this together and then the
37:50
prophet names the painful reality and so
37:53
we we wanted to hold both of those
37:55
together
37:56
and so yeah did i ever tell someone
38:00
um who to vote for of course not
38:03
would anyone have any question
38:07
um
38:09
of
38:10
how i felt
38:11
about
38:13
um
38:14
the rhetoric
38:15
of our of our current president
38:18
absolutely not
38:20
so in my current you mean
38:22
that yeah in in that in 2016 yeah yeah
38:26
yeah but presumably if you were still
38:27
leading it the same would be the case
38:29
today
38:31
absolutely i mean the
38:33
after biden was sworn in
38:35
in the most um
38:37
[Music]
38:38
i was
38:39
horrified
38:41
by
38:42
the democratic use of christian themes
38:45
and language to talk about
38:48
our our our nation so yeah it
38:52
if
38:53
if you say you're not partisan but you
38:55
only critique one side you're partisan
38:58
and that's okay you're allowed to be
39:00
but are there values that are bigger i
39:03
hated how trump used
39:05
christian language for his bigotry
39:08
and
39:10
i
39:10
hated the inauguration of biden all the
39:14
christian-y language for this um
39:17
our very secular superpower so you know
39:20
we we try to name
39:22
what we see
39:23
not as partisans but as like
39:26
christians as
39:27
members of a of of a different kingdom
39:29
so
39:30
our listeners are well acquainted with
39:32
our thoughts on these things yes
39:35
so i won't pile on um so i'm curious so
39:38
you wrote this book came out about three
39:39
years ago and
39:41
it's maybe the understatement of the
39:43
century to say a good deal has happened
39:45
since then
39:47
socially personally for you i'm curious
39:50
if you were to write the book today
39:52
what would be different about it have
39:53
you changed your mind about anything
39:55
would you have focused more on some
39:56
things than others yeah well i'll tell
39:58
you this i i and i haven't talked a lot
40:00
about this um i'm gonna share it
40:02
probably at some point
40:04
but i wrote
40:06
a i wrote a chapter that we ended up
40:08
cutting last minute and it was the
40:11
second to last chapter
40:13
and it was literally arguing against the
40:16
whole book
40:18
and it was basically the title was
40:20
or maybe we should just burn it all down
40:24
and i i thought it was an interesting
40:26
both
40:28
rhetorically like let's talk about both
40:30
sides of this you know i'm painting this
40:33
vision for what could be that i still
40:35
believe
40:38
and i have doubts i actually started i
40:40
started with a story of remember john
40:42
lennon uh in the song revolution when
40:45
you talk about destruction you can count
40:46
me out but on the white album he said
40:49
when you talk about destruction you can
40:51
help me out in
40:53
yeah and his explanation uh later was
40:56
well i'm not always sure
40:59
and so i i think if i was writing it
41:02
today
41:03
um
41:05
it's it's kind of embarrassing to admit
41:08
if i flip through the book i still
41:09
believe in this stuff so deeply i'm i'm
41:12
still trying to flesh it out in ways
41:15
um but i think i would probably talk a
41:18
little more um
41:22
i think
41:25
less
41:26
renovation
41:28
and more
41:29
it's all burning to the ground what are
41:32
we gonna build out of the rubble
41:34
so i think maybe three years ago i
41:36
thought yeah we're gonna have to put on
41:38
a new roof i mean it's gonna be some
41:40
real deep renovations and now i think no
41:43
it it's good i think it's gonna be total
41:46
loss
41:48
but then what then what's possible
41:51
and so uh that's probably where i'm at
41:53
right now yeah thanks uh quick aside
41:55
just because philosophy is half of our
41:57
podcast um you mentioned at least a
41:59
couple philosophers that i noticed in
42:01
the book doubts willard who came up
42:02
earlier but also jamie smith james case
42:06
um do you want to say anything about how
42:07
those guys thought informed you and
42:10
maybe shaped how you think about
42:11
christian practice i can't overstate
42:13
dallas willard um
42:15
i think it's not hyperbole to say i i
42:18
don't think i would be a christian
42:20
without his book the divine conspiracy
42:23
and some of it was the timing and you
42:24
know how so much of books and ideas are
42:27
timing in life but
42:29
his vision of the kingdom was
42:31
truly revolutionary
42:33
and a lot of people don't know this but
42:35
rob bell
42:36
planted mars hill
42:38
in his living room
42:40
reading through the divine conspiracy
42:42
so that was like their core text um too
42:46
and just a really monumental book and
42:48
then jamie smith when i
42:50
read desiring the kingdom i don't know
42:52
if that was
42:53
how many years ago
42:54
seven or eight do you know when that
42:56
book came out
42:57
oh i don't know it's been a little while
42:58
now yeah that was just
43:00
absolutely
43:02
um
43:03
so critical
43:05
um with the whole idea that we are being
43:08
shaped by liturgies of all kinds um it's
43:12
not about are we being shaped by
43:14
liturgies it's about how are we being
43:17
shaped so the shopping mall is a liturgy
43:19
yeah and our practices at home are
43:21
liturgy i had a similar experience with
43:23
him like any time now i hear someone and
43:25
we kind of do this at our church
43:26
sometimes we'll refer to oh we're going
43:27
to have a liturgical prayer now or a
43:29
liturgical reading yeah yeah
43:31
everything we've been doing
43:33
the whole thing yep
43:35
for my whole life you know as a worship
43:37
leader we had a very set liturgy we had
43:40
loud song
43:41
louder song
43:43
really loud song
43:45
and then we had offering announcements a
43:47
sermon and then an earnest song
43:50
well that's a liturgy
43:52
and it's not a bad liturgy there's a lot
43:54
of beauty to that
43:55
um i i would probably argue it it's
43:58
missing some things that need to be
44:00
supplemented
44:01
but um
44:02
yeah we all
44:04
we are we are all liturgical
44:07
yeah
44:09
so aaron you have referenced a couple
44:11
times your time at willow creek yeah and
44:13
um our listeners are familiar because of
44:15
a church called tove with um
44:18
all that went down there yeah and um
44:22
obviously you're
44:23
very affected by it the rise and fall of
44:25
mars hill podcast has become this crazy
44:27
phenomenon yeah i mean crazy phenomenon
44:31
and in it you can hear the tension that
44:32
many
44:34
at mars hill
44:35
the other mars
44:37
the other mars
44:38
yes yes i always try to make that really
44:40
clear i was part of the grand rapids
44:42
mars hill yeah
44:44
oh and so did driscoll he tried to make
44:45
that clear oh yeah yeah
44:47
he did not want to be
44:48
confused no
44:49
but um you can hear in some of those
44:51
interviews attention that people would
44:53
have of like we're seeing beautiful
44:54
things happen and we're seeing quote
44:55
unquote kingdom fruit and this is that
44:58
really deceptive quote-unquote kingdom
45:01
fruit where we're seeing all these
45:02
people being baptized and coming to
45:03
jesus we're in the most unchurched city
45:05
in the world
45:07
nation and all this is happening blah
45:08
blah blah
45:09
but yet they could feel it they could
45:11
sense the misogyny they could sense the
45:13
patriarchy they could sense the abusive
45:16
bullying yeah all of it and eventually
45:19
just went over the top you know yep you
45:21
were in a similar environment it seems
45:23
like um where
45:25
you know maybe not as clear
45:27
and in your face
45:29
but i mean there you know you had
45:31
similar dynamics
45:32
and eventually
45:34
the chicago tribune took hold of it and
45:37
you know what happened happened how did
45:39
that feel did you have that similar
45:41
tension that we hear in that podcast of
45:43
those people of like i don't like this
45:45
but good things are still happening
45:47
what was that like yeah oh man um
45:51
well let me
45:53
let me start in my head and then i'll
45:54
share a little bit um
45:58
you know there's two truths
46:00
like
46:01
rob bell used to say if you ever find a
46:03
perfect church don't join it because
46:05
you'll wreck it
46:07
um so i mean there really are two truths
46:10
churches are only
46:12
humans and we humans are
46:14
so deeply flawed
46:16
and so
46:18
there is a brokenness
46:20
almost necessary to a church because
46:23
it's
46:24
broken humans who are making it up so
46:27
that's on one on one hand
46:30
on the other hand we are seeing
46:32
um
46:34
such a devastating
46:36
um
46:38
example of
46:41
toxicity that just
46:43
um
46:44
[Music]
46:45
is like a cancer from the inside out
46:48
and
46:49
that's not
46:51
that kind of dangerous toxic
46:55
thing is not
46:56
what we're talking about in the first
46:58
truth well yeah we're all broken you
47:00
know saved by grace that's something
47:03
really really dangerous
47:05
right and
47:06
so maybe being specific would help right
47:09
we're all broken
47:10
in a yes general powerful but we're not
47:13
all sexual abusers and we're not all
47:14
racists we're not all you know what i
47:17
mean yeah yeah yeah
47:19
and
47:20
um
47:23
and yet we all have
47:24
broken parts to our sexual history and
47:28
we all have
47:30
broken things we're trying to work
47:31
through in terms of race and diversity
47:34
so
47:35
i don't know if it's
47:37
there are the bad people and the not so
47:40
bad people i think what happens is the
47:42
structures get built
47:45
that then
47:47
um
47:48
empower the worst
47:51
tendencies in people
47:53
and the kinds of things that
47:56
my brokenness
47:58
gets
47:59
gets um
48:01
exposed
48:03
and then i have a chance to
48:04
heal um we see in both mars hill and
48:09
willow we see these impenetra
48:12
impenetrable
48:13
structures
48:14
where powers can is consolidated into
48:18
it's always one dude
48:21
and um
48:23
everybody loses
48:26
yeah did you see that when you were
48:27
there
48:28
did you recognize that dynamic
48:31
yeah i mean we
48:32
what we said is
48:34
we saw the um
48:37
the culture of fear
48:38
everybody was afraid
48:41
um
48:42
we saw the the lack of uh
48:46
um truth truth telling to power i mean
48:49
there was so little of that we saw all
48:52
that stuff we never saw the sexual um
48:56
that was
48:58
um
48:59
such a devastating horrifying surprise
49:04
um that i
49:06
you know i'll i'll probably never get
49:07
over that that is a that is a
49:10
disillusionment
49:12
and a uh a horror that just yeah
49:16
um but that that that was not in our
49:19
awareness
49:20
but the the power stuff the um
49:25
the the just trail of dead bodies behind
49:28
willow for 40 years i mean
49:31
i had a therapist friend
49:33
who
49:34
uh
49:35
he had his practice in the chicagoland
49:37
area and he said well willow keeps me in
49:40
business yeah yeah
49:42
think about that
49:43
yep that church is so dangerous to
49:46
people's souls
49:48
that therap that therapists have have
49:51
thriving business if they're close by
49:53
yeah
49:54
elliot knows something about that
49:56
yeah um yeah so i'm as i'm as we're
50:01
talking i'm sure there's a few people
50:02
who are listening who are in the an
50:05
environment like this and they're like
50:06
holy
50:07
this might be my church
50:09
yeah do you have any thoughts or you
50:11
know like
50:13
advice for someone who is recognizing
50:15
there's some toxic things going on here
50:17
how do i how do i how do i dress this do
50:19
i just leave
50:22
in my in my like in my 20s especially
50:26
i i was like man if it doesn't align
50:29
perfectly to everything you think you
50:32
get out of there and you find a place to
50:33
be fully yourself and you know
50:36
and um in my 30s that's that widened
50:40
quite a bit
50:42
to
50:42
um
50:43
and you know life life knocks you around
50:45
a little bit you realize that everything
50:48
is complicated
50:50
and wherever you go there you are
50:53
and so the idea that
50:56
every time i'm in a place
50:58
that i'm unhappy it's it's that they're
51:01
all idiots
51:02
and i'm gonna find the utopia i think a
51:05
lot of us chase the utopia and i don't
51:08
think it exists
51:10
so that's the first half of the answer
51:12
[Music]
51:13
the second half of the answer is
51:16
once you discern
51:19
that there is something
51:22
uh
51:23
cancerous in the culture
51:27
you need to get out that afternoon
51:29
[Music]
51:31
so i have stories um
51:33
in
51:34
uh you know
51:37
working in churches for so many years i
51:38
have so many friends and uh
51:42
some of them
51:44
left a little too early
51:46
but most would say they stayed way too
51:50
late
51:51
and some of it was really believing
51:53
believing and hoping yeah um
51:56
some of it was
51:58
fear
51:59
and probably a hundred other reasons
52:02
but so i would say this is a
52:05
question that you have to work through
52:08
with your spiritual director
52:10
with the people who know you the best
52:14
um i had to admit to my wife once
52:17
you know what
52:18
i'm on the third boss
52:21
where i'm having the same problem with
52:24
the third boss in a row thanks is it
52:27
possible
52:28
it's not just all three are idiots
52:32
is it possible
52:34
that there's some you know wherever you
52:36
go there you are yeah um so i think that
52:39
is the first question of discernment but
52:42
once you've got to the point where
52:43
you're like
52:45
hey there's a toxicity here
52:47
there is a
52:50
narcissism
52:51
especially a
52:53
um
52:54
institutionalized narcissism
52:57
that protects
52:58
you know the whole thing that we're
53:00
seeing in all of these places
53:03
um i think you get out that afternoon
53:06
yeah yeah i'll just add that like the
53:08
problem is compounded by the fact that
53:10
many people spiritual advisors in those
53:11
contexts are just part of the harmful
53:13
system
53:15
you're gonna have to be willing to look
53:16
outside your culture maybe even your
53:18
entire tradition to figure out to
53:20
discern as you put it whether this is
53:22
that kind of toxic thing or something
53:24
that's worth sticking it out
53:26
and if you're in a culture that frowns
53:28
on or is even hostile to
53:30
to attempt to do that that's a pretty
53:32
good indication that you might be in one
53:34
of those toxic no that's right that's
53:36
exactly right
53:37
and i would say that's
53:39
to to find a therapist and a spiritual
53:43
director outside of your
53:45
real narrow circle i think is just good
53:48
practice
53:49
in any context
53:51
if only just to
53:52
[Music]
53:54
approach
53:54
uh questions and practices and ideas
53:57
from a different vantage point yep i
53:59
don't think i'd be continuing doing what
54:02
i'm doing if i didn't have that myself
54:03
yeah
54:04
um nor would i yeah last question about
54:07
willow and
54:08
the whole deal um
54:10
in scott mcknight and laura behringer's
54:12
book a church called tove they obviously
54:14
sent her a lot on the willow experience
54:16
they were part of it
54:18
and
54:18
in the conversation we had on this on
54:20
this podcast they make a pretty good
54:22
case that it seems as if willow really
54:26
didn't use that crisis moment to reform
54:28
and change their culture and change
54:30
um and do some self-reflection and
54:33
repentance i mean just seeing the
54:35
reaction it was like doubling down after
54:37
doubling down and then all of a sudden
54:38
you had you get the
54:40
the job description for the new senior
54:42
pastor and it looks pretty much like a
54:43
bill hybel's clone they make the case
54:45
that pretty much nothing has changed
54:46
they've just all
54:48
lumped all that crap onto high bull's
54:50
shoulders and not taken owned any of it
54:53
you were part of that community for a
54:54
long time would you that's a common
54:56
common thing but would you agree with
54:58
that assessment
55:00
well um
55:02
i read uh i read
55:04
tov and thought it was i mean obviously
55:06
so painful and brilliant i highly
55:09
recommend it i thought i think they did
55:11
a really nice job
55:12
um
55:14
i'll say this you know i didn't see
55:15
almost any self-reflection at almost any
55:18
level um doesn't mean it didn't happen i
55:21
didn't see any of it
55:23
um but it's hard to comment because
55:26
really once
55:27
when we realized you know i had already
55:30
left staff when this all uh broke so
55:33
thank god because if i if i would have
55:35
had to lead our community through that
55:38
um
55:39
that would have just been it was already
55:41
so
55:42
let me tell a quick just human story um
55:44
the week that happened
55:47
um when the tribune ran the the first
55:50
story and
55:51
we all
55:53
found out what had been happening um
55:56
i was at walgreens or something with my
55:59
kid who's probably 12
56:01
12 at the time
56:03
and he walked and he kind of wandered
56:04
away as i was paying and then he and he
56:06
was over by the newspaper stands and
56:08
he's like hey look papa's on the
56:10
newspaper
56:12
and i just remember thinking this is so
56:15
i don't even have a category what do i
56:17
tell my kid
56:19
what do i
56:20
how do i wade into this um
56:23
you know how do
56:25
there's a private side that obviously
56:27
we're gonna
56:28
take to the far you know i'll go all the
56:31
way with
56:32
what do you do publicly like is that do
56:34
you do you talk about those kinds of
56:36
things it's just so so
56:38
off the chart
56:40
of of of knowing how to engage that
56:44
whole thing
56:45
um but i bring that all up just to say
56:48
um
56:50
we have not tried to stay
56:53
um connected to the institutional side
56:58
of what's going on at will so i really
56:59
can't comment on have are they doing
57:02
things differently or
57:04
the same but i'll say
57:06
i have not seen a overwhelming amount of
57:10
self-reflection speaking of i mean
57:13
talking about how much life has changed
57:15
for you for shauna for your family yeah
57:18
as you look back on your ministry life
57:20
aaron i mean where you've
57:22
worked you've been inside the belly of
57:24
the beast twice right like
57:26
two humongous well-known world globally
57:30
influential mega churches
57:32
and
57:33
now all of a sudden you're away from
57:34
that and you're in chelsea and i am so
57:37
jealous in some ways but and you have
57:39
and more of a high church setting in
57:41
smaller environments what do you and
57:43
shauna imagine and dream about in this
57:46
next season of your lives when you think
57:47
about
57:48
church and ministry are there things
57:50
that you'd like to hold on to anything
57:52
or what would you never want to go back
57:54
to what what are what do you guys talk
57:56
about and dream about
57:58
oh man what a great question um
58:01
yeah i i
58:04
um
58:05
oh there's so many things i want to say
58:06
uh
58:09
first of all to just say we don't we
58:12
don't know 10 years from now who knows
58:15
so that there's not a there's not a
58:16
master plan
58:18
um we knew we didn't want to be
58:21
um
58:22
we i have been uh
58:24
okay look
58:26
we can we can cut all that um
58:28
all right
58:29
um so yeah there's there's not there's
58:31
not some big master plan
58:33
what i know
58:34
is um i am experiencing so much life
58:40
in some of the intersections
58:43
and so i don't think i i would ever go
58:46
back
58:47
to
58:48
ju to only one stream
58:51
um i'm really interested and compelled
58:55
by what happens i guess like
58:57
ghostbusters right when you cross the
58:58
streams
59:04
when
59:05
multiple
59:06
traditions mingle together when multi
59:09
multiple perspectives cultures
59:12
um it's really really compelling to me
59:16
now
59:17
what i have to name is
59:19
one of those streams
59:21
really is evangelicalism
59:24
and there's a lot from evangelicalism
59:27
that i've had to let go of and uh
59:30
and just say you know maybe that worked
59:33
for a while
59:34
maybe it never did maybe it was always
59:36
toxic but i'm gonna have to you know
59:38
bless it and let it go but there are
59:40
other parts of the tradition that a
59:44
are just part of my story and always
59:47
will be like you don't erase the past in
59:49
the same way i'll always be a niequist
59:51
like that's just
59:53
how i came into the world
59:55
um but also there are some things about
59:58
the tradition that i think are really
59:59
really beautiful but
60:02
they're not enough
60:04
that's what i've what i've come to
60:05
believe
60:06
evangelicalism
60:08
um has some really good parts but it's
60:11
just not enough on its own
60:14
and so um
60:16
yeah so i think the the future for me at
60:19
least what i deeply desire
60:21
is to hold on to some of these
60:24
evangelical roots but bring them into a
60:27
wider and deeper space
60:30
fun
60:31
a couple of two rivers or streams coming
60:33
together as it were i guess i mean
60:35
somebody should write a book named
60:36
eternal currents
60:37
[Laughter]
60:40
if only if only yeah um so when you and
60:43
i were sharing lunch together aaron this
60:45
past summer on the rooftop in new york
60:48
um you mentioned something similar to
60:50
what you're talking about of
60:52
your desire your dream kind of of taking
60:55
i don't remember exactly what it was
60:57
from episcopalian you know high church
61:00
of i think it was like i want to take
61:02
the theology and liturgy of
61:04
episcopalianism and mix it with the
61:06
hospitality i think it was of
61:07
evangelicalism and see what happens out
61:09
of that synergy yeah am i getting that
61:12
wrong
61:13
no that's pretty that's that's pretty
61:14
close uh evangelical hospitality
61:18
with anglican uh i think i said
61:20
sacramental imagination yes there you go
61:24
and then the third stream though is
61:26
jesuit spiritual practice
61:28
okay and what i love about it is
61:32
the evangelical impulse
61:34
is to like include you like join us be a
61:38
part of this not only do we want you to
61:40
be a part of it but once you're here
61:42
we'll help you do it you know there's a
61:44
there's an energy there's a life there's
61:46
a vibrancy
61:47
it matters
61:49
like and it doesn't just matter my brain
61:50
it matters in my heart it matters in my
61:52
body that's something i never want to
61:54
lose
61:55
from
61:56
healthy
61:57
streams of evangelical worship and
61:59
experience the problem is we didn't
62:02
always have
62:03
very much content like it was about an
62:06
inch thin
62:07
um in in cases so we got ourselves all
62:10
worked up and we loved jesus but that
62:14
was about that's that's where it went
62:16
and so you know
62:18
now
62:19
you know my last couple years here at um
62:22
uh general theological seminary i got to
62:25
worship in a very high church
62:27
episcopalian context
62:30
and the depth of the liturgy the the the
62:34
weight the beauty of the words the
62:38
sacramental imagination of what's
62:40
happening at the table it was all so
62:42
rich now
62:44
half the people seem to sleep the whole
62:46
time
62:47
and so i wanted to stand and yell do you
62:49
realize the treasures that you are
62:52
sitting on and um so it just made me
62:55
think
62:56
how do we bring these why do we have to
62:59
choose
63:00
why does it have to be exciting and dumb
63:04
or thoughtful
63:06
and uh
63:08
yeah
63:09
why why do we have to choose we don't
63:12
and so the idea of bringing those
63:14
streams together is really compelling
63:16
from a gathering standpoint and then i
63:18
think what the jesuit
63:21
ignatian spirituality offers then is a
63:24
path
63:25
what do i how do i actually live this
63:27
out
63:29
uh ignatian spirituality offers the
63:31
practices and the framework for a daily
63:35
lived practice so
63:37
um that's what i'm man
63:40
when i get really fired up it's thinking
63:42
about those those three streams come
63:44
together new church network brought to
63:46
you by aaron niequist yeah i'm thinking
63:48
of the cocktail this is i want i want
63:50
that as a themed cocktail you've got
63:53
that work on that the old spirit plus
63:56
the yeah i like it yeah
63:59
that's good
64:01
so
64:02
aaron obviously everyone likes putting
64:04
people into boxes and categories ah um
64:06
you've just been talking about how you
64:07
want to become a mongrel you know
64:10
within chris and dumb um how would you
64:12
identify if someone had to nail you to
64:13
the wall do you identify anymore as an
64:15
evangelical
64:17
it's a weird question um
64:20
sorry
64:20
[Laughter]
64:23
what i what i what i don't identify as
64:26
an ex evangelical okay just because i
64:28
don't want to be an x anything yeah it's
64:31
not that i don't want to leave things i
64:33
just don't want to define myself by what
64:35
i'm not yes so i i don't use x
64:38
evangelical
64:40
um
64:41
i think i am still rooted
64:43
in
64:44
um some of the of the evangelical
64:49
traditions some of the things i learned
64:51
um
64:52
so in that way i want to give a yes
64:56
um
64:57
but i am categorically not
65:00
what american evangelical has become
65:03
so then i'm categorically not that so
65:06
that's that's where it's it's i don't
65:08
i'm not trying to do a cop-out answer no
65:11
um
65:12
you know you'd have to start by okay
65:13
what do you mean by evangelical right
65:15
um
65:16
so yeah so i'm not an ex
65:19
um i'm not anti
65:20
i'm trying to i did a chapter in the
65:23
book called include and transcend
65:25
i'm trying to hold on to every bit
65:29
of my past
65:30
that
65:31
that can be life-giving yeah
65:34
and uh yeah yeah that's good my
65:37
our church dropped the evangelical label
65:40
about i don't know a year and a half ago
65:41
and we just decided to just simplify and
65:43
call ourselves a christian church
65:45
following in the way of jesus yeah
65:47
yep isn't that simple yeah because
65:50
evangelical is is as much a political
65:53
term now as it is a religious one so and
65:56
it's just not helpful it's not
65:57
descriptive anymore for what what it
66:00
used to mean well here in nequis it's
66:02
been a real pleasure talking to you
66:03
thanks so much for your time this has
66:05
been enlightening i'm sure listeners are
66:07
going to love it where can they find you
66:08
online if they want to find out more
66:11
yeah i i've uh everything is just at my
66:14
website which is just my name
66:15
aaronniequist.com
66:17
so i'm on i'm on all the socials and all
66:19
that
66:23
but yeah if you want to check out the
66:24
book if you want to check out the new
66:26
liturgy project if you not want to check
66:28
out the podcast which is called the
66:29
eternal current podcast it's all you can
66:32
find all the links at aaron those in the
66:34
show notes as well
66:36
awesome aaron thank you for joining us
66:38
cheers my friend
66:40
cheers to you
66:45
[Music]
