A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

Converging Traditions, Toxic Environments, and Healthy Spiritual Practices: An Interview with Aaron Niequist

November 17, 2021 Randy Knie, Kyle Whitaker Season 2 Episode 9
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Converging Traditions, Toxic Environments, and Healthy Spiritual Practices: An Interview with Aaron Niequist
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Aaron Niequist has been to the top of the evangelical mountain and has experienced first hand the goodness and the toxicity and the pain that is often a byproduct of that world. He's come out of the belly of the evangelical beast without the bitterness and cynicism that many of us fall victim to. He doesn't want to label himself an Ex-vangelical. He's dreaming of living in and creating spiritual places and practices that are a convergence of the best of a number of Christian traditions, and it's beautiful. Check out his 2018 book The Eternal Current.

In this episode, we tasted Eagle Park Brewing's BOTM's Up and Big BOTM's. They're delicious.

To skip the tasting, go to 4:43.

You can find the transcript for this episode here.

=====

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NOTE: This transcript is for the unedited video version of this conversation, so what you see here will not match the audio-only podcast version exactly. For the video version, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nUIgig8a2M&ab_channel=APastorandaPhilosopherWalkintoaBar

[Music]

00:04

aaron niequist thank you so much for

00:06

joining us on a pastor and philosopher

00:07

walk into a bar

00:09

glad to be here

00:10

so one thing we like to ask our guests

00:12

before we get rolling because we're a

00:13

pastor and philosopher walking to a bar

00:15

is are you drinking anything you want to

00:17

tell us about

00:19

i don't know if i need to tell you about

00:20

it i'm just drinking a uh quite mediocre

00:24

red wine that's good and uh but good way

00:26

to end the day yeah

00:28

thursday thursday night that's good

00:30

nothing to remark upon though

00:32

good all right aaron can you tell our

00:35

listeners the few who don't know about

00:37

you and your world and what you do and

00:38

where you are could you just tell us

00:39

about your world

00:41

yeah like not the story but like where

00:44

where we'll get to the story yeah yeah

00:46

yeah who are you

00:47

yeah so so currently living in manhattan

00:49

in the chelsea neighborhood

00:51

and we had moved here three years ago

00:53

for me to become uh a student at general

00:56

theological seminary to get my masters

00:59

and uh we absolutely

01:02

love it here and so we are trying to

01:04

find every way to stay um and so this

01:07

year i graduated last spring and so this

01:10

year i've been jumping into a number of

01:13

different things a couple different

01:15

communities here in chelsea and it's

01:17

mostly at the intersection of like music

01:20

and art and formation

01:22

um and maybe throw liturgy in there so

01:25

the things that we do together

01:27

that help form us into the way of christ

01:30

sorry yeah so you're now a master of

01:32

theology

01:34

i have about 100 questions i feel like a

01:36

master of nothing um but yes i did take

01:39

those courses i can't remember the name

01:41

of the school that you just said but is

01:42

what what uh affiliation or denomination

01:45

it's in a pisc it's an episcopal school

01:48

and it's actually a real historic uh

01:50

apparently the story is before general

01:53

was built like a hundred and something

01:54

years ago you had to actually go

01:57

um over to the uk to become a priest and

02:00

so they built this seminary to train uh

02:03

episcopal priests for the states so i'm

02:06

not a pesky

02:08

loving being a part of a

02:10

new and strange tradition strange to me

02:13

you know

02:14

yeah

02:16

cool so we had a look at your book

02:18

before the interview thanks for sending

02:20

all right um so so in the book that you

02:23

wrote that came out what three years ago

02:24

something like that the eternal current

02:26

right right around then yep yeah so at

02:29

the beginning of that you relay a story

02:31

about your doubting process that began

02:33

around 2002

02:34

and the journey you've been on since

02:36

then of transforming your view of what

02:38

christian practices so can you give our

02:40

listeners sort of a cliff's notes

02:41

version of that story yeah

02:44

um maybe a better way to say it is my

02:46

first doubting experience yeah

02:49

one of one of many that on the cycle of

02:51

belief and unbelief and but yeah it was

02:54

i had grown up in a christian family

02:56

christian

02:58

uh college and then got a job at a

03:00

christian church and then about like a

03:02

year in i'm a worship leader

03:04

um i realize i barely believe any of the

03:07

songs that i'm asking people to sing and

03:10

it was

03:11

um you know right you know 15 years ago

03:14

now so it's easy to look back and talk

03:16

about because you know how it goes but

03:18

it was

03:19

a a terrifying

03:22

moment both professionally like what am

03:24

i gonna do but way deeper like this was

03:27

like

03:28

deconstructing like grandma's house like

03:30

this was this is how i grew up this is

03:32

everything i knew and

03:34

um

03:35

it was very scary

03:37

and

03:38

um

03:39

you know the long and the short of it is

03:42

um broke

03:43

me out of some things that had died a

03:46

long time ago

03:48

and so when i look back i i'm so

03:51

grateful for that moment but again it

03:53

it's it's easy to talk about the the

03:57

positive outcome

03:59

um but when you're in it it's just like

04:01

a punch to the gut so

04:04

yeah yeah

04:05

yeah so many of us can identify with

04:07

that exact moment that that experience

04:10

um in in the book as you described your

04:12

faith crisis aaron you mentioned how

04:14

each person's journey is unique but this

04:16

wrestling and this ache and maybe even

04:18

this kind of

04:20

moments of doubt and uncertainty and

04:22

unbelief is universal you say yeah can

04:25

you explain that because

04:27

i think of and i i'm perplexed by some

04:30

people not perplexed

04:32

but i just wonder about some people that

04:33

i know

04:34

in my family or yeah in my church or

04:36

whatever who have this a little bit more

04:38

fundamentalist rooted kind of faith

04:40

journey that doesn't give a hint of

04:43

doubt or uncertainty or shaky ground

04:45

with your faith and i just don't know

04:47

what to make of it do you really think

04:48

it is universal

04:50

absolutely

04:52

um i

04:53

it makes me think of the writer of the

04:56

book of romans

04:58

talking about all creation groans

05:01

and i i truly think there is a universal

05:04

not just

05:05

christian people all creation groans

05:09

um the world is not how it was meant to

05:11

be we know this there is more we we

05:16

we know this or desperately want to know

05:19

this so i i think the

05:21

the ache is um universal

05:24

certainly you're naming that we're all

05:26

at a different

05:28

place on the process of getting in touch

05:31

with that ache

05:32

we humans are spectacular

05:35

at ignoring reality

05:37

even our own reality

05:39

and um so i think uh some people haven't

05:42

got there yet and then some

05:46

don't ever get there um i can think of a

05:49

couple people in my life

05:51

who made it into their 70s

05:53

never

05:54

allowing

05:56

some of those cracks

05:57

to see the light of day

05:59

and um

06:01

you know a lot of times that comes out

06:02

of trauma that comes out of growing up

06:04

in a house where you were never allowed

06:06

to ask a question or show weakness but

06:10

um what a loss for them to have to hold

06:13

together something they know

06:15

is not the whole story but it's

06:17

unthinkable to start over yeah one of

06:21

our friends and former guest brian

06:23

mclaren would call that simplicity and i

06:25

do think like you're saying some people

06:26

are really content and not only content

06:29

desperately hold on to that simplicity

06:31

like that's complexity perplexity

06:33

yeah seems

06:35

terrifying yeah if i if i let one crack

06:38

show the whole thing

06:41

you know uh crumbles

06:43

and that's terrifying we just have to

06:45

empathize with that that's a really

06:47

scary thought of using the whole thing

06:50

especially when it's like concretely i

06:52

will lose my job

06:55

right right this is what i believe but

06:57

conquer like how i make a living my job

07:00

my all my relationships

07:03

my family relationship

07:05

and then depending on how anchored you

07:08

know your faith is in

07:10

more fundamentalist or even conservative

07:12

sides

07:14

you know we're talking eternity do i

07:16

want to burn in the lake of fire or do i

07:19

want to float on a cloud i mean that's

07:22

like

07:23

those are some stakes right there so and

07:25

i'm i'm not i'm not being glib about it

07:27

that that is

07:29

um what many of us are taught those are

07:32

stakes so

07:34

this is not to be

07:35

um engaged with lightly yeah so when you

07:39

had that initial

07:40

crisis experience or doubting experience

07:42

or whatever how long would you say you

07:44

were in a period of pretending or

07:47

caring because you didn't stop being a

07:49

worship leader

07:50

right well for good and for bad and this

07:53

is some of my enneagram four i'm a

07:56

terrible pretender yeah um my wife would

07:58

say i have zero poker face

08:01

and um

08:03

and again that causes a lot of

08:05

tumult in my life but i i also think

08:07

it's uh can be a positive so i was not

08:10

able to pretend very long i'm a really

08:13

bad with a big smile

08:15

um

08:16

but i did have a job to do and so

08:19

thankfully i had a boss uh the pastor at

08:22

the time that i could tell like share

08:24

this with and he was walking with me and

08:27

even one night he said you know what it

08:30

seems like this might not be the best

08:32

thing for you to do i used to play

08:33

guitar back in my early days let me let

08:36

me do the songs tonight and then you can

08:38

just have the week off i mean it's just

08:40

so profoundly meaningful and i'm

08:42

learning as i talk to other friends

08:44

unbelievably rare

08:47

most people in my position admit to a

08:49

fraction of a doubt

08:52

and

08:53

then are working at starbucks and um

08:57

you know what what

08:58

what does that say about our churches

09:01

that you know it's all fine as long as

09:04

you believe everything

09:06

and then if you even question

09:08

anything you're out yeah um

09:11

this is a tragedy

09:13

yeah i think it's one of the reasons why

09:15

we see

09:16

crazy declining numbers of young people

09:18

leaving the church leaving the faith

09:20

it doesn't have to be that's what drives

09:22

me absolutely

09:23

yeah yeah

09:25

yeah

09:26

so in the book maybe this is the thesis

09:28

of the book actually you write that

09:29

christianity is a practice based faith

09:31

what most of the book is taking up

09:33

describing what those practices are so

09:35

yeah um

09:36

what does that mean and how is it

09:38

different from

09:40

how most maybe most christians

09:41

understand or at least a lot of the

09:43

christians that we've grown up around

09:45

right there yeah or in your church who

09:47

view it as more of a belief system or

09:48

something yeah great question um

09:51

at the end of the sermon on the mount

09:53

a collection of jesus uh greatest

09:56

teachings matthew 5 6 and 7. jesus says

09:59

the famous

10:00

you know um

10:02

you know if you build your house on the

10:03

rock and all that

10:05

it i sang the song in sunday school i

10:07

knew that whole like thing but i didn't

10:10

realize that what jesus is actually

10:12

saying is

10:13

if you hear my words

10:15

and put them into practice

10:18

you are like a man who builds his house

10:20

upon the rock if you don't if you hear

10:22

my words and don't put them into

10:24

practice you're like a man who builds

10:26

his house upon the sand

10:27

and that to me was scandalous

10:30

because um what i had heard is if you

10:34

hear jesus words and believe they're

10:36

true

10:37

and say a correct prayer about them

10:40

then you're building your life on the

10:41

rock if you just believe it really

10:44

strongly if you align your brain and

10:46

your thinking you're in

10:48

and i think beliefs matter i think it

10:51

matters what we believe but that's just

10:54

not the invitation of jesus

10:56

um jesus didn't say here is some truth

10:59

believe it

11:00

jesus said i am the truth follow me

11:04

and so that has just been

11:06

um

11:08

the implications for that for me at

11:10

least are vast

11:12

so you know you take something uh

11:15

simple like oh not not simple let's say

11:18

how do i begin not going all the way in

11:21

um i mean you take something like gossip

11:23

you know uh

11:26

spiritual teachers and the scriptures

11:28

don't say don't gossip or god will

11:31

punish you

11:32

they say

11:34

don't gossip because it will

11:36

it'll wreck your relationships

11:39

so it's not like oh i better believe

11:41

believe god gossip is bad

11:43

it's inviting us into the best way to

11:46

live

11:47

dallas willard says jesus up jesus

11:49

teachings are not observations about

11:52

what should happen they're simple

11:54

observations about how the universe

11:56

actually works

11:58

and

12:00

so i think the invitation

12:02

is not to believe correctly

12:05

it's to join christ

12:08

in the way that jesus has invited us to

12:10

be

12:12

it's beautiful it's good um so within

12:16

you know you

12:18

with other friends kind of pioneered a

12:20

new kind of expression within an

12:22

evangelical mega church that you were

12:24

working at and you called it the

12:25

practice right um

12:27

and you had you said you had three kind

12:29

of main focuses of of each gathering and

12:32

i

12:33

get paid you know one of the things i

12:35

get paid to do is to preach sermons and

12:37

to

12:38

you know teach the bible and all that

12:41

stuff

12:41

and you say in

12:44

when you're talking about the practice

12:45

you say

12:47

that you describe teaching that leads to

12:49

practice is the kind of teaching that

12:51

you were trying to

12:53

bring about in the practice in this

12:54

gathering

12:55

teaching that leads to practice now

12:57

being my cynical self i just want to be

13:00

like well that just sounds like

13:02

preaching that's act has a call to

13:03

action but what tell me is there

13:05

something different about teaching that

13:07

leads to practice

13:08

um

13:09

than a normal sermon

13:11

yeah that's great um i think the core of

13:14

it is what is the intention

13:17

of that time

13:19

okay um

13:21

there is

13:22

there are many times that i've heard a

13:25

sermon and frankly given a sermon

13:28

where the takeaway truly is if you peel

13:31

everything back the takeaway is i want

13:34

you to believe these things that i'm

13:36

telling you

13:37

so the end goal wow people agreed or

13:40

believed or even shifted their mind and

13:43

again i i hope it doesn't sound like i'm

13:45

anti-teaching i think teaching has a an

13:48

incredible role to play unless it sees

13:51

itself as the end okay and then i think

13:54

it's i think it can be really unhelpful

13:57

but a teaching that leads to practice

14:00

is more of a springboard

14:02

um the end goal is not all right are we

14:05

clear everybody believe that

14:07

the end goal is

14:09

are you now empowered to do that

14:13

tuesday morning or wednesday afternoon

14:16

or thursday so an example um an example

14:19

that i love to use because it's

14:21

it's been so uh

14:24

kind of provocative in my life and then

14:27

really helpful

14:28

is the whole idea of forgiving those who

14:31

have wounded us

14:33

um

14:34

i've heard

14:35

so many sermons on forgiveness thank god

14:39

because it's one of the central themes

14:41

of healthy of a healthy christian

14:43

spirituality

14:46

but just hearing a sermon that tells me

14:50

i should forgive

14:52

so and so

14:54

um

14:55

if that's the end goal

14:57

then not only does it not help me it

14:59

actually makes me feel worse because i

15:01

don't know how to do it

15:03

um

15:04

but

15:05

if we do

15:07

if we teach about why it's so central so

15:09

this is why teaching is so important

15:12

but then also give people the tools to

15:15

do it

15:16

i think it's revolutionary quick story i

15:18

was meeting with my spiritual director

15:20

he's a jesuit priest i was telling him

15:22

there's someone in my life that i i like

15:24

was thinking about how i could yell at

15:27

them you know really a lot of resentment

15:29

and we talked about forgiveness he told

15:31

me the things that i knew but good

15:33

reminders

15:34

and then he said aaron we have a

15:37

four-step

15:38

practice

15:39

that helps pray these prayers and

15:42

release this person to god can i tell

15:44

you about it

15:45

and i'm like sure so he told me the four

15:47

steps and i was like oh man i could

15:48

actually do that so i told him you know

15:50

this week i'm gonna find some time to do

15:53

this prayer and he goes

15:56

let's do it now

15:58

like no i'm not i'm not ready now but

16:00

he's like let's do it now

16:02

and so we spent the next 15 or 20

16:04

minutes

16:05

practicing this prayer of releasing this

16:08

person

16:09

and it was difficult and i didn't like

16:12

it but it was beautiful

16:15

and then i walked out not only knowing i

16:17

should forgive this person

16:20

not only having an experience of

16:23

beginning to crack my fists open just a

16:26

little bit but now i had a four-step

16:29

practice

16:30

that i could put jesus words into

16:33

practice all week long and honestly i've

16:35

prayed that

16:36

200 times since then for that one

16:40

particular person and for a number of

16:42

other situations so yeah sorry it's kind

16:44

of a long answer but no it's beautiful

16:46

it's good actually i'd love to

16:48

dig a little bit more into that in the

16:50

context of the uh especially like the

16:53

what's traditionally the sunday

16:54

gathering the in that part because then

16:56

there's a beautiful outflow the two but

16:59

this actually

17:00

goes back a long way i don't i don't

17:02

expect it all that you would remember

17:04

this but it was probably a decade ago

17:05

that we met for the first time and i i

17:08

came and i i asked if you would have

17:10

lunch i was working at a mega church the

17:12

time you were

17:14

in chicago area at the mega church that

17:16

you were working at and in my role

17:19

i identified a lot

17:20

in between right yeah we did i remember

17:23

driving up yeah

17:24

so yeah yeah but the thing that made me

17:26

reach out to you for that first time was

17:28

i was in a role where it was my job to

17:31

you know to produce the the sunday

17:33

spectacle in a way that would bring

17:35

people in

17:36

uh to

17:37

uh to figure out how to create something

17:38

compelling that would direct people to

17:40

that you know bring them to the foot of

17:42

the pulpit yep in a way where then they

17:45

were receptive to the sermon and then

17:46

when the sermon's over you close it out

17:48

with uh a good emotional piece that's

17:51

gonna uh drive those words home so

17:55

from that reality what i what i saw

17:59

uh was

18:00

you searching or exploring these ways of

18:03

creating these gatherings where it's you

18:05

talk about practice space but it's like

18:07

the connection that was really helpful

18:09

for me it's almost it's like a rehearsal

18:10

like we're actually

18:12

we're going through these uh

18:14

these things as a community and i

18:16

started to see and understand like

18:18

there's maybe there's something

18:19

different to our gatherings than

18:21

spectacle yeah and maybe there's an

18:23

appropriate center point other than the

18:25

sermon

18:26

as as you've spent a lot of time

18:29

developing

18:30

those types of of

18:33

thoughts and then flowing gatherings out

18:34

of those what does that actually look

18:36

like

18:37

as a worship leader or whatever whatever

18:41

break out of that box whatever whatever

18:43

it is

18:44

now that that we can do instead

18:47

yeah uh what does that look like in the

18:49

in the thought process and in the

18:51

planning and then in the execution of

18:53

that type of a thing

18:54

yeah oh great question well i mean the

18:58

the simple answer is i tried like almost

19:01

every page of the book is is literally

19:04

trying to wrestle that um but let me

19:07

tell a story and then maybe just a

19:09

couple specifics

19:10

um

19:12

and i think i shared the story in the

19:14

book imagine going to a fitness center

19:17

and saying

19:18

um i'm out of shape but i signed up for

19:21

the new york marathon in six months

19:24

would you help me get ready for this

19:26

marathon

19:27

and imagine they said wonderful we'd

19:29

love to help you come back to this back

19:32

room we have this band that's going to

19:34

play a bunch of songs and then we have a

19:36

marathon expert who's going to give a

19:39

lecture on running marathons sounds way

19:41

better than running

19:42

[Laughter]

19:45

and so yeah so you go back there and the

19:47

band is great and you're all fired up

19:50

for running and then the the marathon

19:52

runner gives you the three steps to how

19:53

to run a marathon and you're like this

19:54

was amazing and then they say come back

19:57

next week we'll do it again come back

19:58

next week we'll do it again come back

20:00

next week

20:02

it won't take you very long to realize

20:04

you are no closer to actually running

20:08

the marathon

20:09

than you were you're inspired you're

20:10

fired up and that has value so i'm not

20:13

anti

20:14

the inspiration and even the

20:17

let's talk about things

20:19

but at a certain point

20:21

someone would have to say hey come join

20:24

me on the mat here

20:26

let me teach you you know your

20:27

hamstrings

20:29

they're going to take a beating let me

20:31

teach you a couple stretches that help

20:34

get your hamstrings strong enough to be

20:36

able to run all right let's talk about

20:38

aerobic let's talk

20:40

okay yeah obviously the analogy breaks

20:42

down at a certain point

20:43

but you know as my friend mark skandra

20:46

was the first one who i had heard start

20:48

talking about church

20:50

as gymnasium

20:52

we have churches as classroom

20:55

we have church as concert hall

20:58

we have church i'm i'm learning in these

21:00

circles as kind of preservation society

21:04

um

21:05

but what i think the world desperately

21:08

needs is church as gymnasium where we

21:11

learn

21:12

how to put jesus words into practice

21:15

and so for us at the practice

21:18

the night was broken up in three

21:21

parts there was an opening liturgy that

21:23

involved singing that involved the

21:25

scripture the scriptural text prayers

21:27

prayer for the world kind of what you'd

21:29

imagine in a

21:31

um

21:33

kind of anglican kind of evangelical

21:36

kind of progressive kind of

21:38

catholic

21:40

liturgy okay

21:41

and then the middle section was a

21:43

teaching that led to a practice

21:45

like you had mentioned and what it meant

21:48

is we we said the teaching can be 10 to

21:50

12 minutes

21:52

which for people who are used to

21:54

preaching 45 is excruciating

21:57

um and for just getting done with my

21:59

introduction

22:00

right right and for everyone listening

22:03

it's such a gift

22:06

because

22:07

in the world we live in

22:09

um

22:10

i

22:11

i'm not trying to like be controversial

22:13

over but like we don't learn best by

22:17

large blocks

22:19

of lecture

22:20

that's not how our brains are wired

22:22

especially in like the internet age and

22:26

so we learn by interaction we learn by

22:29

uh co-creation we learn from

22:33

smaller

22:34

[Music]

22:35

ideas and then okay so

22:38

um

22:39

and so we said

22:40

you know the teacher you have one idea

22:43

and it's got to propel us

22:45

into then a practice which then we'd

22:48

spend 15 to 20 minutes doing the

22:50

practice so like the the forgiveness

22:52

example um we would talk about why it's

22:55

why forgiveness is so important the

22:58

scriptural grounding a story that helps

23:01

us and then

23:03

now go ahead put your papers down i want

23:05

to guide you through this four-step

23:08

practice and then so that was the middle

23:10

movement and then the final movement

23:12

we'd gather around the eucharist table

23:15

and we'd break the bread and the wine

23:18

and then that would send us out into the

23:20

world and i would end every gathering

23:22

with remember

23:24

sunday is not the main event

23:27

your actual life is the main event so

23:30

this week as you practice remember this

23:33

for you know four-part forgiveness

23:36

prayer is there someone you want to keep

23:38

praying for and we'd like talk about how

23:40

to

23:40

propel into the into the world so that's

23:43

a little framework was that good yeah

23:45

enough especially yeah absolutely i mean

23:47

it's a perfect segue into the next

23:48

question that i had

23:51

in the book you seem to have

23:53

really found a profound depth and

23:55

transformational experience in the

23:56

eucharist itself

23:58

centering all of it in a very catholic

24:01

way

24:02

the gatherings around the eucharist i

24:04

love the eucharist i love centering in

24:06

our practice i would love to do it more

24:08

um

24:09

especially

24:11

in that protestant style of just adding

24:13

it in every once in a while because

24:14

jesus told us to you know

24:16

however i haven't had that consistent

24:19

profound experience and encounter with

24:20

the eucharist in ways that my catholic

24:22

friends do and that your book described

24:24

i don't understand

24:26

the idea of basing a whole gathering

24:28

around

24:29

the bread and the cup so what am i

24:31

missing what what makes that moment in

24:34

practice so meaningful for you yeah

24:36

millions of other people

24:38

yeah well i mean that's the the first

24:40

place to start i mean i i cause i grew

24:42

up in the same way we would do

24:44

um

24:45

communion on occasion

24:47

and it was a

24:48

uh

24:49

a meaningful way to remember what jesus

24:52

did

24:53

it was a memorial it was think it was

24:55

looking back um at the best i would

24:58

spend some time thinking about my sin

25:00

that put jesus on the cross and then

25:02

thank

25:03

uh jesus for paying that price so kind

25:05

of in the substitutionary atonement

25:08

centric

25:09

way of believing

25:10

and um there are some some deep truth to

25:14

that

25:14

um

25:16

but i think as i looked around to our

25:19

our fellow christians of other streams

25:23

many many traditions i would i would say

25:26

most traditions christian traditions

25:30

center the eucharist

25:32

i mean our catholic friends

25:34

going to mass

25:35

is receiving

25:37

is going to the table that's why you go

25:41

and so it just it kind of piqued my

25:44

interest like why what's going on there

25:47

and i i mean

25:50

i could ramble for 10 minutes um

25:53

i am

25:54

only scratching the surface

25:56

of this mystery the book i would

25:58

probably recommend is for the life of

26:00

the world by alexander schmemann

26:04

and he is uh an orthodox christian and

26:08

talks about

26:09

kind of the sacramental imagination of

26:12

what is happening

26:14

um at the table and in the liturgy it's

26:16

a

26:17

mind-blowing bending book

26:20

maybe i would say one thing um ian kron

26:22

has he ever been on your podcast or we

26:24

have not had him no no yeah

26:27

just a just an awesome guy and uh

26:31

was a evangelical pastor for many years

26:33

then became an episcopal priest and he

26:36

came to the practice and did a whole

26:38

night on the eucharist

26:39

and it was the it was the teaching

26:42

and then he walked us through every step

26:46

of the eucharistic liturgy here's why we

26:49

do this here's what i mean it was just

26:51

crazy but the moment that stuck with us

26:55

right at the end right as we're about to

26:57

approach the table he goes now remember

27:00

you never

27:01

take communion

27:03

and we're like

27:04

what take that's what we do he goes

27:07

it can only be received

27:11

he said taking

27:12

is what they did in the garden of eden

27:16

but receiving

27:17

is what's going to put the whole world

27:19

back together

27:20

okay

27:21

and i mean i remember just there's just

27:23

a hush and he knew it and we just sat in

27:26

silence for a moment

27:27

and so there's something that's going on

27:30

in the table

27:31

that's not just thinking about what

27:33

jesus did

27:34

but is getting swept up in what jesus

27:37

does

27:39

there is a present

27:41

reality there is you know and obviously

27:43

is jesus only present at the table of

27:46

course not god is everywhere god fills

27:49

you know it is in god we live move and

27:51

have our being but i think there is

27:53

something at the table that helps us

27:56

become present

27:58

to the presence of christ that has been

28:00

with us all along so it

28:03

um good

28:05

yeah that's good

28:07

you got another one elliot

28:12

yeah i uh

28:14

one of the concepts from the book again

28:17

that that really has stuck out to me is

28:19

this concept of the balanced spiritual

28:21

diet yeah

28:23

yeah

28:24

uh

28:25

the ways that often were we're serving

28:27

just a few you know probably just just

28:29

the

28:30

the very tip of the the spiritual food

28:32

pyramid

28:33

right the easy stuff the the fun stuff

28:36

the sugary stuff

28:38

um especially as as worship leaders but

28:41

i think that's the the temptation as

28:43

everybody in in their spiritual journey

28:45

is to to find those things that are the

28:47

easiest and most palatable yep uh can

28:50

you just describe that concept a little

28:51

bit yeah

28:52

and dig into i think the the

28:54

alternatives probably go deeply into

28:56

what we've already discussed but just

28:58

help us tie that concept together

29:01

yeah that's actually a phrase for my

29:03

wife i

29:05

in my um years at mars hill we were

29:08

trying to move from

29:10

what five songs are we gonna sing

29:13

to what worship communal journey are we

29:16

gonna go on to

29:18

and i'm telling you even just shifting

29:20

that framing question

29:22

changed everything because it wasn't

29:24

plugging songs into the slot it was

29:27

thinking like a story a narrative

29:29

where are we going to go together

29:31

and so once we kind of discerned the

29:33

story of that sunday

29:35

then we would say all right what helps

29:36

us begin the story is there a prayer is

29:38

there a song is there a

29:41

meditation what it and a lot of it was

29:43

still singing but then we'd all we do

29:45

these other things too things we were

29:47

learning from our anglican friends from

29:48

our catholic friends from our

29:50

pentecostal friends and

29:51

and so my wife shawna was saying why are

29:54

we doing

29:55

all these different things why aren't we

29:56

just singing anymore and i was trying to

29:58

explain and that's when she said oh so

30:01

you're trying to serve us a

30:02

well-balanced meal every sunday

30:05

and it was so profound for me because i

30:08

realized that i i had served one kind of

30:11

meal

30:12

for the last like 15 years every sunday

30:16

wondering why the community wasn't

30:18

getting healthier

30:19

and

30:21

to this day i think it was actually a

30:23

pretty healthy meal i don't i don't

30:24

think it was just

30:26

um junk food

30:28

but it was missing some fundamental food

30:32

groups

30:33

that we would never

30:34

ever engage communally one obvious one

30:39

is lament

30:42

almost a third of the psalms

30:45

are laments

30:47

and do you know what percentage of the

30:49

top 100 ccli worship song

30:55

i'll tell you

30:56

zero percent

30:58

um it's just not what we do

31:00

so

31:01

you just have to ask in the same way

31:03

with with food you know if if a person

31:07

never ate fiber

31:10

what would happen to their diet you know

31:11

or if you never had calcium what would

31:15

happen

31:15

well i'll tell you what happens with an

31:18

entire

31:20

movement

31:21

that never

31:22

practices lament in a healthy way

31:26

um

31:27

really really toxic things

31:29

um

31:30

and so you know what a loss and so it

31:34

just made us it made us wonder like what

31:36

else are we missing

31:38

and there were a couple other things

31:39

that surfaced at least in our community

31:41

uh at that time we we

31:44

you know especially early we had we

31:46

never did a confession of sin that felt

31:48

catholic that felt shameful

31:51

but it doesn't have to be

31:53

um confessing our sin is naming reality

31:57

it's it's trusting god enough to say

32:00

here's what's true

32:03

is grace big enough even for this and

32:06

thank god it is

32:07

and so we started practicing confession

32:09

and then receiving a word of

32:12

assurance we started praying not just

32:15

for what was happening in the room or in

32:17

our community we started praying for

32:20

things going on in the world

32:22

um it sounds really simple but it

32:25

shifted that from all that matters is

32:28

what's happening in these four walls say

32:30

you know what god loves

32:32

the world and we're this tiny little

32:35

part of it

32:36

um so all these different practices just

32:40

expanded brought you know again that

32:42

every algae breaks down but brought the

32:44

different nutrients and this

32:46

well-balanced diet um

32:48

in i think what was a a pretty helpful

32:51

way

32:52

so related to what you just said about

32:54

praying for the world and all the stuff

32:56

going on in the world um it would seem

32:59

inconsistent with what you've been

33:00

describing to stop at a prayer right so

33:03

what role do you think working for like

33:06

social change and social justice and

33:09

structural equity

33:11

what role does that kind of

33:13

practice right because it can't be done

33:14

by thinking or praying about it what

33:16

role does that play in the in in

33:18

christian practice itself

33:19

um is being involved in a concrete

33:22

specified way in a political process a

33:25

feature of church as you envision it yep

33:30

i mean a

33:31

massive massive question um a couple

33:34

quick answers and then we can dive in as

33:37

as deeply as you want to go um

33:40

i truly think

33:41

um

33:43

if a church is not political

33:46

it is not living out the mandate to love

33:50

its neighbor as itself how can we say we

33:53

love our neighbor and we don't care

33:55

about the very real issues

33:58

that are harming them

34:01

now when a church becomes partisan

34:04

then all sorts of

34:07

lunacy

34:08

starts sneaking in

34:10

so i think the distinction between

34:13

political which just means having to do

34:15

with how a society organism organizes

34:18

itself

34:19

is critical

34:21

um but partisan especially these days is

34:26

is really toxic so

34:28

now how do you discern

34:30

where one ends and the other one begins

34:32

that's truly a matter of discernment

34:35

um

34:36

but you know i'll just speak from my

34:39

background as you know i've spent most

34:42

of my life

34:43

in as a white male

34:46

in the suburbs um

34:49

politics don't affect us very much

34:53

we are insulated by our privilege

34:56

and by the fact that we are over

34:59

represented in almost every power

35:02

structure

35:03

so it's easy for us to say oh leave the

35:07

politics out there

35:09

um

35:11

but um

35:13

you don't have to get outside of

35:16

uh

35:17

my little bubble very far to realize

35:20

that these policies

35:22

profoundly affect

35:24

so many different layers of life and so

35:28

yeah can't pretend to love our neighbor

35:30

if we don't care about the things that

35:32

affect them

35:33

yeah

35:34

just dig a tiny bit deeper can you give

35:36

maybe an example of how

35:38

that has worked in your

35:40

pr in the practice or in your um

35:44

experience of leading liturgy like what

35:45

does it look like when you

35:48

give people tools or help them reframe

35:51

how they think about it or i mean i'm

35:53

guessing you don't say or maybe you do

35:55

here's who you should vote for

35:57

but yeah what does it look like

35:58

specifically not not that but i'll tell

36:01

you what um i was still on staff at

36:04

willow and still leading the practice

36:07

excuse me when um donald trump was

36:11

elected in in 2016.

36:13

and the sunday after the election we we

36:16

had been that fall moving through the

36:18

beatitudes

36:19

um

36:20

was blessed are the peacemakers

36:23

so we had four days from that election

36:28

to then gather together and we had um we

36:31

had some trump people in our community

36:33

who are really excited and celebrating

36:35

that day

36:36

we had some people who were just

36:39

you know devastated and

36:41

and and really scared for the country

36:45

and then we had a number of people in

36:46

between just saying i don't know what to

36:48

do with all this

36:49

um

36:50

but i thought man

36:53

of course i'm not going to choose a

36:56

partisan one against the other

36:58

but

36:59

um we're going to engage this head on

37:03

and so we talked about

37:05

um

37:06

the

37:07

uh trying to put ourselves in each

37:10

other's shoes

37:12

um we had one of the members of our

37:14

community is a fiery prophetic

37:17

wonderful

37:19

latina woman

37:21

and she just

37:22

said can i tell you

37:24

what it's been like in my community

37:26

with this kind of rhetoric

37:29

and um we actually asked her to write a

37:32

prophetic prayer

37:33

and then we asked father michael to

37:35

write a priestly prayer

37:38

because we feel like both are

37:39

desperately necessary the priests help

37:43

us

37:43

see each other helps us come together

37:46

helps us

37:48

be a part of this together and then the

37:50

prophet names the painful reality and so

37:53

we we wanted to hold both of those

37:55

together

37:56

and so yeah did i ever tell someone

38:00

um who to vote for of course not

38:03

would anyone have any question

38:07

um

38:09

of

38:10

how i felt

38:11

about

38:13

um

38:14

the rhetoric

38:15

of our of our current president

38:18

absolutely not

38:20

so in my current you mean

38:22

that yeah in in that in 2016 yeah yeah

38:26

yeah but presumably if you were still

38:27

leading it the same would be the case

38:29

today

38:31

absolutely i mean the

38:33

after biden was sworn in

38:35

in the most um

38:37

[Music]

38:38

i was

38:39

horrified

38:41

by

38:42

the democratic use of christian themes

38:45

and language to talk about

38:48

our our our nation so yeah it

38:52

if

38:53

if you say you're not partisan but you

38:55

only critique one side you're partisan

38:58

and that's okay you're allowed to be

39:00

but are there values that are bigger i

39:03

hated how trump used

39:05

christian language for his bigotry

39:08

and

39:10

i

39:10

hated the inauguration of biden all the

39:14

christian-y language for this um

39:17

our very secular superpower so you know

39:20

we we try to name

39:22

what we see

39:23

not as partisans but as like

39:26

christians as

39:27

members of a of of a different kingdom

39:29

so

39:30

our listeners are well acquainted with

39:32

our thoughts on these things yes

39:35

so i won't pile on um so i'm curious so

39:38

you wrote this book came out about three

39:39

years ago and

39:41

it's maybe the understatement of the

39:43

century to say a good deal has happened

39:45

since then

39:47

socially personally for you i'm curious

39:50

if you were to write the book today

39:52

what would be different about it have

39:53

you changed your mind about anything

39:55

would you have focused more on some

39:56

things than others yeah well i'll tell

39:58

you this i i and i haven't talked a lot

40:00

about this um i'm gonna share it

40:02

probably at some point

40:04

but i wrote

40:06

a i wrote a chapter that we ended up

40:08

cutting last minute and it was the

40:11

second to last chapter

40:13

and it was literally arguing against the

40:16

whole book

40:18

and it was basically the title was

40:20

or maybe we should just burn it all down

40:24

and i i thought it was an interesting

40:26

both

40:28

rhetorically like let's talk about both

40:30

sides of this you know i'm painting this

40:33

vision for what could be that i still

40:35

believe

40:38

and i have doubts i actually started i

40:40

started with a story of remember john

40:42

lennon uh in the song revolution when

40:45

you talk about destruction you can count

40:46

me out but on the white album he said

40:49

when you talk about destruction you can

40:51

help me out in

40:53

yeah and his explanation uh later was

40:56

well i'm not always sure

40:59

and so i i think if i was writing it

41:02

today

41:03

um

41:05

it's it's kind of embarrassing to admit

41:08

if i flip through the book i still

41:09

believe in this stuff so deeply i'm i'm

41:12

still trying to flesh it out in ways

41:15

um but i think i would probably talk a

41:18

little more um

41:22

i think

41:25

less

41:26

renovation

41:28

and more

41:29

it's all burning to the ground what are

41:32

we gonna build out of the rubble

41:34

so i think maybe three years ago i

41:36

thought yeah we're gonna have to put on

41:38

a new roof i mean it's gonna be some

41:40

real deep renovations and now i think no

41:43

it it's good i think it's gonna be total

41:46

loss

41:48

but then what then what's possible

41:51

and so uh that's probably where i'm at

41:53

right now yeah thanks uh quick aside

41:55

just because philosophy is half of our

41:57

podcast um you mentioned at least a

41:59

couple philosophers that i noticed in

42:01

the book doubts willard who came up

42:02

earlier but also jamie smith james case

42:06

um do you want to say anything about how

42:07

those guys thought informed you and

42:10

maybe shaped how you think about

42:11

christian practice i can't overstate

42:13

dallas willard um

42:15

i think it's not hyperbole to say i i

42:18

don't think i would be a christian

42:20

without his book the divine conspiracy

42:23

and some of it was the timing and you

42:24

know how so much of books and ideas are

42:27

timing in life but

42:29

his vision of the kingdom was

42:31

truly revolutionary

42:33

and a lot of people don't know this but

42:35

rob bell

42:36

planted mars hill

42:38

in his living room

42:40

reading through the divine conspiracy

42:42

so that was like their core text um too

42:46

and just a really monumental book and

42:48

then jamie smith when i

42:50

read desiring the kingdom i don't know

42:52

if that was

42:53

how many years ago

42:54

seven or eight do you know when that

42:56

book came out

42:57

oh i don't know it's been a little while

42:58

now yeah that was just

43:00

absolutely

43:02

um

43:03

so critical

43:05

um with the whole idea that we are being

43:08

shaped by liturgies of all kinds um it's

43:12

not about are we being shaped by

43:14

liturgies it's about how are we being

43:17

shaped so the shopping mall is a liturgy

43:19

yeah and our practices at home are

43:21

liturgy i had a similar experience with

43:23

him like any time now i hear someone and

43:25

we kind of do this at our church

43:26

sometimes we'll refer to oh we're going

43:27

to have a liturgical prayer now or a

43:29

liturgical reading yeah yeah

43:31

everything we've been doing

43:33

the whole thing yep

43:35

for my whole life you know as a worship

43:37

leader we had a very set liturgy we had

43:40

loud song

43:41

louder song

43:43

really loud song

43:45

and then we had offering announcements a

43:47

sermon and then an earnest song

43:50

well that's a liturgy

43:52

and it's not a bad liturgy there's a lot

43:54

of beauty to that

43:55

um i i would probably argue it it's

43:58

missing some things that need to be

44:00

supplemented

44:01

but um

44:02

yeah we all

44:04

we are we are all liturgical

44:07

yeah

44:09

so aaron you have referenced a couple

44:11

times your time at willow creek yeah and

44:13

um our listeners are familiar because of

44:15

a church called tove with um

44:18

all that went down there yeah and um

44:22

obviously you're

44:23

very affected by it the rise and fall of

44:25

mars hill podcast has become this crazy

44:27

phenomenon yeah i mean crazy phenomenon

44:31

and in it you can hear the tension that

44:32

many

44:34

at mars hill

44:35

the other mars

44:37

the other mars

44:38

yes yes i always try to make that really

44:40

clear i was part of the grand rapids

44:42

mars hill yeah

44:44

oh and so did driscoll he tried to make

44:45

that clear oh yeah yeah

44:47

he did not want to be

44:48

confused no

44:49

but um you can hear in some of those

44:51

interviews attention that people would

44:53

have of like we're seeing beautiful

44:54

things happen and we're seeing quote

44:55

unquote kingdom fruit and this is that

44:58

really deceptive quote-unquote kingdom

45:01

fruit where we're seeing all these

45:02

people being baptized and coming to

45:03

jesus we're in the most unchurched city

45:05

in the world

45:07

nation and all this is happening blah

45:08

blah blah

45:09

but yet they could feel it they could

45:11

sense the misogyny they could sense the

45:13

patriarchy they could sense the abusive

45:16

bullying yeah all of it and eventually

45:19

just went over the top you know yep you

45:21

were in a similar environment it seems

45:23

like um where

45:25

you know maybe not as clear

45:27

and in your face

45:29

but i mean there you know you had

45:31

similar dynamics

45:32

and eventually

45:34

the chicago tribune took hold of it and

45:37

you know what happened happened how did

45:39

that feel did you have that similar

45:41

tension that we hear in that podcast of

45:43

those people of like i don't like this

45:45

but good things are still happening

45:47

what was that like yeah oh man um

45:51

well let me

45:53

let me start in my head and then i'll

45:54

share a little bit um

45:58

you know there's two truths

46:00

like

46:01

rob bell used to say if you ever find a

46:03

perfect church don't join it because

46:05

you'll wreck it

46:07

um so i mean there really are two truths

46:10

churches are only

46:12

humans and we humans are

46:14

so deeply flawed

46:16

and so

46:18

there is a brokenness

46:20

almost necessary to a church because

46:23

it's

46:24

broken humans who are making it up so

46:27

that's on one on one hand

46:30

on the other hand we are seeing

46:32

um

46:34

such a devastating

46:36

um

46:38

example of

46:41

toxicity that just

46:43

um

46:44

[Music]

46:45

is like a cancer from the inside out

46:48

and

46:49

that's not

46:51

that kind of dangerous toxic

46:55

thing is not

46:56

what we're talking about in the first

46:58

truth well yeah we're all broken you

47:00

know saved by grace that's something

47:03

really really dangerous

47:05

right and

47:06

so maybe being specific would help right

47:09

we're all broken

47:10

in a yes general powerful but we're not

47:13

all sexual abusers and we're not all

47:14

racists we're not all you know what i

47:17

mean yeah yeah yeah

47:19

and

47:20

um

47:23

and yet we all have

47:24

broken parts to our sexual history and

47:28

we all have

47:30

broken things we're trying to work

47:31

through in terms of race and diversity

47:34

so

47:35

i don't know if it's

47:37

there are the bad people and the not so

47:40

bad people i think what happens is the

47:42

structures get built

47:45

that then

47:47

um

47:48

empower the worst

47:51

tendencies in people

47:53

and the kinds of things that

47:56

my brokenness

47:58

gets

47:59

gets um

48:01

exposed

48:03

and then i have a chance to

48:04

heal um we see in both mars hill and

48:09

willow we see these impenetra

48:12

impenetrable

48:13

structures

48:14

where powers can is consolidated into

48:18

it's always one dude

48:21

and um

48:23

everybody loses

48:26

yeah did you see that when you were

48:27

there

48:28

did you recognize that dynamic

48:31

yeah i mean we

48:32

what we said is

48:34

we saw the um

48:37

the culture of fear

48:38

everybody was afraid

48:41

um

48:42

we saw the the lack of uh

48:46

um truth truth telling to power i mean

48:49

there was so little of that we saw all

48:52

that stuff we never saw the sexual um

48:56

that was

48:58

um

48:59

such a devastating horrifying surprise

49:04

um that i

49:06

you know i'll i'll probably never get

49:07

over that that is a that is a

49:10

disillusionment

49:12

and a uh a horror that just yeah

49:16

um but that that that was not in our

49:19

awareness

49:20

but the the power stuff the um

49:25

the the just trail of dead bodies behind

49:28

willow for 40 years i mean

49:31

i had a therapist friend

49:33

who

49:34

uh

49:35

he had his practice in the chicagoland

49:37

area and he said well willow keeps me in

49:40

business yeah yeah

49:42

think about that

49:43

yep that church is so dangerous to

49:46

people's souls

49:48

that therap that therapists have have

49:51

thriving business if they're close by

49:53

yeah

49:54

elliot knows something about that

49:56

yeah um yeah so i'm as i'm as we're

50:01

talking i'm sure there's a few people

50:02

who are listening who are in the an

50:05

environment like this and they're like

50:06

holy

50:07

this might be my church

50:09

yeah do you have any thoughts or you

50:11

know like

50:13

advice for someone who is recognizing

50:15

there's some toxic things going on here

50:17

how do i how do i how do i dress this do

50:19

i just leave

50:22

in my in my like in my 20s especially

50:26

i i was like man if it doesn't align

50:29

perfectly to everything you think you

50:32

get out of there and you find a place to

50:33

be fully yourself and you know

50:36

and um in my 30s that's that widened

50:40

quite a bit

50:42

to

50:42

um

50:43

and you know life life knocks you around

50:45

a little bit you realize that everything

50:48

is complicated

50:50

and wherever you go there you are

50:53

and so the idea that

50:56

every time i'm in a place

50:58

that i'm unhappy it's it's that they're

51:01

all idiots

51:02

and i'm gonna find the utopia i think a

51:05

lot of us chase the utopia and i don't

51:08

think it exists

51:10

so that's the first half of the answer

51:12

[Music]

51:13

the second half of the answer is

51:16

once you discern

51:19

that there is something

51:22

uh

51:23

cancerous in the culture

51:27

you need to get out that afternoon

51:29

[Music]

51:31

so i have stories um

51:33

in

51:34

uh you know

51:37

working in churches for so many years i

51:38

have so many friends and uh

51:42

some of them

51:44

left a little too early

51:46

but most would say they stayed way too

51:50

late

51:51

and some of it was really believing

51:53

believing and hoping yeah um

51:56

some of it was

51:58

fear

51:59

and probably a hundred other reasons

52:02

but so i would say this is a

52:05

question that you have to work through

52:08

with your spiritual director

52:10

with the people who know you the best

52:14

um i had to admit to my wife once

52:17

you know what

52:18

i'm on the third boss

52:21

where i'm having the same problem with

52:24

the third boss in a row thanks is it

52:27

possible

52:28

it's not just all three are idiots

52:32

is it possible

52:34

that there's some you know wherever you

52:36

go there you are yeah um so i think that

52:39

is the first question of discernment but

52:42

once you've got to the point where

52:43

you're like

52:45

hey there's a toxicity here

52:47

there is a

52:50

narcissism

52:51

especially a

52:53

um

52:54

institutionalized narcissism

52:57

that protects

52:58

you know the whole thing that we're

53:00

seeing in all of these places

53:03

um i think you get out that afternoon

53:06

yeah yeah i'll just add that like the

53:08

problem is compounded by the fact that

53:10

many people spiritual advisors in those

53:11

contexts are just part of the harmful

53:13

system

53:15

you're gonna have to be willing to look

53:16

outside your culture maybe even your

53:18

entire tradition to figure out to

53:20

discern as you put it whether this is

53:22

that kind of toxic thing or something

53:24

that's worth sticking it out

53:26

and if you're in a culture that frowns

53:28

on or is even hostile to

53:30

to attempt to do that that's a pretty

53:32

good indication that you might be in one

53:34

of those toxic no that's right that's

53:36

exactly right

53:37

and i would say that's

53:39

to to find a therapist and a spiritual

53:43

director outside of your

53:45

real narrow circle i think is just good

53:48

practice

53:49

in any context

53:51

if only just to

53:52

[Music]

53:54

approach

53:54

uh questions and practices and ideas

53:57

from a different vantage point yep i

53:59

don't think i'd be continuing doing what

54:02

i'm doing if i didn't have that myself

54:03

yeah

54:04

um nor would i yeah last question about

54:07

willow and

54:08

the whole deal um

54:10

in scott mcknight and laura behringer's

54:12

book a church called tove they obviously

54:14

sent her a lot on the willow experience

54:16

they were part of it

54:18

and

54:18

in the conversation we had on this on

54:20

this podcast they make a pretty good

54:22

case that it seems as if willow really

54:26

didn't use that crisis moment to reform

54:28

and change their culture and change

54:30

um and do some self-reflection and

54:33

repentance i mean just seeing the

54:35

reaction it was like doubling down after

54:37

doubling down and then all of a sudden

54:38

you had you get the

54:40

the job description for the new senior

54:42

pastor and it looks pretty much like a

54:43

bill hybel's clone they make the case

54:45

that pretty much nothing has changed

54:46

they've just all

54:48

lumped all that crap onto high bull's

54:50

shoulders and not taken owned any of it

54:53

you were part of that community for a

54:54

long time would you that's a common

54:56

common thing but would you agree with

54:58

that assessment

55:00

well um

55:02

i read uh i read

55:04

tov and thought it was i mean obviously

55:06

so painful and brilliant i highly

55:09

recommend it i thought i think they did

55:11

a really nice job

55:12

um

55:14

i'll say this you know i didn't see

55:15

almost any self-reflection at almost any

55:18

level um doesn't mean it didn't happen i

55:21

didn't see any of it

55:23

um but it's hard to comment because

55:26

really once

55:27

when we realized you know i had already

55:30

left staff when this all uh broke so

55:33

thank god because if i if i would have

55:35

had to lead our community through that

55:38

um

55:39

that would have just been it was already

55:41

so

55:42

let me tell a quick just human story um

55:44

the week that happened

55:47

um when the tribune ran the the first

55:50

story and

55:51

we all

55:53

found out what had been happening um

55:56

i was at walgreens or something with my

55:59

kid who's probably 12

56:01

12 at the time

56:03

and he walked and he kind of wandered

56:04

away as i was paying and then he and he

56:06

was over by the newspaper stands and

56:08

he's like hey look papa's on the

56:10

newspaper

56:12

and i just remember thinking this is so

56:15

i don't even have a category what do i

56:17

tell my kid

56:19

what do i

56:20

how do i wade into this um

56:23

you know how do

56:25

there's a private side that obviously

56:27

we're gonna

56:28

take to the far you know i'll go all the

56:31

way with

56:32

what do you do publicly like is that do

56:34

you do you talk about those kinds of

56:36

things it's just so so

56:38

off the chart

56:40

of of of knowing how to engage that

56:44

whole thing

56:45

um but i bring that all up just to say

56:48

um

56:50

we have not tried to stay

56:53

um connected to the institutional side

56:58

of what's going on at will so i really

56:59

can't comment on have are they doing

57:02

things differently or

57:04

the same but i'll say

57:06

i have not seen a overwhelming amount of

57:10

self-reflection speaking of i mean

57:13

talking about how much life has changed

57:15

for you for shauna for your family yeah

57:18

as you look back on your ministry life

57:20

aaron i mean where you've

57:22

worked you've been inside the belly of

57:24

the beast twice right like

57:26

two humongous well-known world globally

57:30

influential mega churches

57:32

and

57:33

now all of a sudden you're away from

57:34

that and you're in chelsea and i am so

57:37

jealous in some ways but and you have

57:39

and more of a high church setting in

57:41

smaller environments what do you and

57:43

shauna imagine and dream about in this

57:46

next season of your lives when you think

57:47

about

57:48

church and ministry are there things

57:50

that you'd like to hold on to anything

57:52

or what would you never want to go back

57:54

to what what are what do you guys talk

57:56

about and dream about

57:58

oh man what a great question um

58:01

yeah i i

58:04

um

58:05

oh there's so many things i want to say

58:06

uh

58:09

first of all to just say we don't we

58:12

don't know 10 years from now who knows

58:15

so that there's not a there's not a

58:16

master plan

58:18

um we knew we didn't want to be

58:21

um

58:22

we i have been uh

58:24

okay look

58:26

we can we can cut all that um

58:28

all right

58:29

um so yeah there's there's not there's

58:31

not some big master plan

58:33

what i know

58:34

is um i am experiencing so much life

58:40

in some of the intersections

58:43

and so i don't think i i would ever go

58:46

back

58:47

to

58:48

ju to only one stream

58:51

um i'm really interested and compelled

58:55

by what happens i guess like

58:57

ghostbusters right when you cross the

58:58

streams

59:04

when

59:05

multiple

59:06

traditions mingle together when multi

59:09

multiple perspectives cultures

59:12

um it's really really compelling to me

59:16

now

59:17

what i have to name is

59:19

one of those streams

59:21

really is evangelicalism

59:24

and there's a lot from evangelicalism

59:27

that i've had to let go of and uh

59:30

and just say you know maybe that worked

59:33

for a while

59:34

maybe it never did maybe it was always

59:36

toxic but i'm gonna have to you know

59:38

bless it and let it go but there are

59:40

other parts of the tradition that a

59:44

are just part of my story and always

59:47

will be like you don't erase the past in

59:49

the same way i'll always be a niequist

59:51

like that's just

59:53

how i came into the world

59:55

um but also there are some things about

59:58

the tradition that i think are really

59:59

really beautiful but

60:02

they're not enough

60:04

that's what i've what i've come to

60:05

believe

60:06

evangelicalism

60:08

um has some really good parts but it's

60:11

just not enough on its own

60:14

and so um

60:16

yeah so i think the the future for me at

60:19

least what i deeply desire

60:21

is to hold on to some of these

60:24

evangelical roots but bring them into a

60:27

wider and deeper space

60:30

fun

60:31

a couple of two rivers or streams coming

60:33

together as it were i guess i mean

60:35

somebody should write a book named

60:36

eternal currents

60:37

[Laughter]

60:40

if only if only yeah um so when you and

60:43

i were sharing lunch together aaron this

60:45

past summer on the rooftop in new york

60:48

um you mentioned something similar to

60:50

what you're talking about of

60:52

your desire your dream kind of of taking

60:55

i don't remember exactly what it was

60:57

from episcopalian you know high church

61:00

of i think it was like i want to take

61:02

the theology and liturgy of

61:04

episcopalianism and mix it with the

61:06

hospitality i think it was of

61:07

evangelicalism and see what happens out

61:09

of that synergy yeah am i getting that

61:12

wrong

61:13

no that's pretty that's that's pretty

61:14

close uh evangelical hospitality

61:18

with anglican uh i think i said

61:20

sacramental imagination yes there you go

61:24

and then the third stream though is

61:26

jesuit spiritual practice

61:28

okay and what i love about it is

61:32

the evangelical impulse

61:34

is to like include you like join us be a

61:38

part of this not only do we want you to

61:40

be a part of it but once you're here

61:42

we'll help you do it you know there's a

61:44

there's an energy there's a life there's

61:46

a vibrancy

61:47

it matters

61:49

like and it doesn't just matter my brain

61:50

it matters in my heart it matters in my

61:52

body that's something i never want to

61:54

lose

61:55

from

61:56

healthy

61:57

streams of evangelical worship and

61:59

experience the problem is we didn't

62:02

always have

62:03

very much content like it was about an

62:06

inch thin

62:07

um in in cases so we got ourselves all

62:10

worked up and we loved jesus but that

62:14

was about that's that's where it went

62:16

and so you know

62:18

now

62:19

you know my last couple years here at um

62:22

uh general theological seminary i got to

62:25

worship in a very high church

62:27

episcopalian context

62:30

and the depth of the liturgy the the the

62:34

weight the beauty of the words the

62:38

sacramental imagination of what's

62:40

happening at the table it was all so

62:42

rich now

62:44

half the people seem to sleep the whole

62:46

time

62:47

and so i wanted to stand and yell do you

62:49

realize the treasures that you are

62:52

sitting on and um so it just made me

62:55

think

62:56

how do we bring these why do we have to

62:59

choose

63:00

why does it have to be exciting and dumb

63:04

or thoughtful

63:06

and uh

63:08

yeah

63:09

why why do we have to choose we don't

63:12

and so the idea of bringing those

63:14

streams together is really compelling

63:16

from a gathering standpoint and then i

63:18

think what the jesuit

63:21

ignatian spirituality offers then is a

63:24

path

63:25

what do i how do i actually live this

63:27

out

63:29

uh ignatian spirituality offers the

63:31

practices and the framework for a daily

63:35

lived practice so

63:37

um that's what i'm man

63:40

when i get really fired up it's thinking

63:42

about those those three streams come

63:44

together new church network brought to

63:46

you by aaron niequist yeah i'm thinking

63:48

of the cocktail this is i want i want

63:50

that as a themed cocktail you've got

63:53

that work on that the old spirit plus

63:56

the yeah i like it yeah

63:59

that's good

64:01

so

64:02

aaron obviously everyone likes putting

64:04

people into boxes and categories ah um

64:06

you've just been talking about how you

64:07

want to become a mongrel you know

64:10

within chris and dumb um how would you

64:12

identify if someone had to nail you to

64:13

the wall do you identify anymore as an

64:15

evangelical

64:17

it's a weird question um

64:20

sorry

64:20

[Laughter]

64:23

what i what i what i don't identify as

64:26

an ex evangelical okay just because i

64:28

don't want to be an x anything yeah it's

64:31

not that i don't want to leave things i

64:33

just don't want to define myself by what

64:35

i'm not yes so i i don't use x

64:38

evangelical

64:40

um

64:41

i think i am still rooted

64:43

in

64:44

um some of the of the evangelical

64:49

traditions some of the things i learned

64:51

um

64:52

so in that way i want to give a yes

64:56

um

64:57

but i am categorically not

65:00

what american evangelical has become

65:03

so then i'm categorically not that so

65:06

that's that's where it's it's i don't

65:08

i'm not trying to do a cop-out answer no

65:11

um

65:12

you know you'd have to start by okay

65:13

what do you mean by evangelical right

65:15

um

65:16

so yeah so i'm not an ex

65:19

um i'm not anti

65:20

i'm trying to i did a chapter in the

65:23

book called include and transcend

65:25

i'm trying to hold on to every bit

65:29

of my past

65:30

that

65:31

that can be life-giving yeah

65:34

and uh yeah yeah that's good my

65:37

our church dropped the evangelical label

65:40

about i don't know a year and a half ago

65:41

and we just decided to just simplify and

65:43

call ourselves a christian church

65:45

following in the way of jesus yeah

65:47

yep isn't that simple yeah because

65:50

evangelical is is as much a political

65:53

term now as it is a religious one so and

65:56

it's just not helpful it's not

65:57

descriptive anymore for what what it

66:00

used to mean well here in nequis it's

66:02

been a real pleasure talking to you

66:03

thanks so much for your time this has

66:05

been enlightening i'm sure listeners are

66:07

going to love it where can they find you

66:08

online if they want to find out more

66:11

yeah i i've uh everything is just at my

66:14

website which is just my name

66:15

aaronniequist.com

66:17

so i'm on i'm on all the socials and all

66:19

that

66:23

but yeah if you want to check out the

66:24

book if you want to check out the new

66:26

liturgy project if you not want to check

66:28

out the podcast which is called the

66:29

eternal current podcast it's all you can

66:32

find all the links at aaron those in the

66:34

show notes as well

66:36

awesome aaron thank you for joining us

66:38

cheers my friend

66:40

cheers to you

66:45

[Music]


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