Dave Lutz is a therapist in Seattle who works with families, couples, men, youth, and more. He's also a former college pastor at a mega-church whose faith journey has evolved and simplified into a spacious and beautiful place. And he's Randy's former college pastor who is in many ways to blame for who Randy is and what he's doing on this podcast. Dave recently wrote a book called Freedom for the Ragged Saint, and we took that as an opportunity to share this beautiful person with our PPWB community. We talk about deconstruction, growth, conservatism, order, method, minimalism, systems theory, and much more.
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Davidson Reserve Small Batch bourbon.
The tasting is at 3:59. To skip to the interview, go to 7:08.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
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NOTE: This transcript was auto-generated by an artificial intelligence and has not been reviewed by a human. Please forgive and disregard any inaccuracies, misattributions, or misspellings.
I'm Randy, the pastor half of the podcast, and my friend Kyle is a philosopher. This podcast hosts conversations at the intersection of philosophy, theology, and spirituality.
We also invite experts to join us, making public space that we've often enjoyed off-air around the proverbial table with a good drink in the back corner of a dark pub.
Thanks for joining us, and welcome to A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar. Our guest today is a really, really important person in my journey. His name is Dave Lutz. And Dave, is the reason that I am a pastor. I think. I remember walking into this basement of a church in downtown Milwaukee and to a college ministry and it didn't feel like a college ministry and this guy was talking. And probably two weeks in, I just had this thought, that's what I want to do. That's what I want to do with the rest of my life. And the trajectory of my life changed after walking into that gathering and hearing this guy talk about God in a way that made sense to me for the first time. I'm sure many of you have had that experience. So Dave Lutz is near and dear to my heart. And he was a college pastor was brilliant at it. And then he now for the last 20 years, he's been a therapist, and I'm just excited to share this guy who's really important to me with you, our listeners, and with you, Kyle and Elliot. And just getting a chance to see into kind of my backstory when you see when you hear Dave a lot of what he brings was really really influential and makes up part of who I am in many ways. So I'm excited for this episode.
Yeah. And I really enjoyed the conversation that never met Dave, but apparently he's a big fan of the podcast and of some of the things I've said in particular so immediately endeared himself to me. No, it was a good conversation. Unexpectedly nerdy, I found myself going some places I didn't expect to go, which is always a sign of a good conversation. So yeah, I think listeners will really enjoy it. Get something out of it. Absolutely. And in case you're new around here, which if you are welcome, thanks for joining us. We do a tasting of alcoholic beverage every episode because why wouldn't we? Yeah, why wouldn't we? So what are we drinking today? So this is a bourbon Tennessee bourbon, which might sound like an oxymoron to some listeners. A lot of people think that bourbon has to be made in Kentucky. They do I've had true times. Yeah, not true. I mean, it makes sense because all the great and renowned bourbons are from Kentucky and there's even a Bourbon County Yep, in Kentucky. I don't know if any bourbon is actually made there. But there is one but no bourbon can be made anywhere. So this is a bourbon from Nashville. And it's called Davidson reserve. That's made by distillery called Pennington I think this is their small batch comes in at it's pretty strong 50.85%.
It smells it's got a young nose to me.
Yeah, no age statement on this
And it's got that musty I'm going back to that familiar description for me of like musty look not leathery bar interesting.
So it does it does give the Nashville so this is a weeded bourbon 22% wheat.
Truth be told, I'm not a big fan of wheated bourbons usually and it smells like a weed and like pappy, Pappy is a weed a bourbon is all the whole Well, there's exceptions to every rule.
Yeah, I don't have high hopes from the smell.
Yeah, that like grainy. Nope. What's the what's the note? Cardboard part? A little cardboard? I was gonna say parchment. When we when we had the tasting with the bourbon guys. What was that note on the last one that they named?
I know what you're talking about but
I can't remember that was oat and that when it's wheat and this one but it's it's that similar makes your mouth feel dry? Yep. Like you're kind of chewing on a stock.
Yeah, no, that's why I thought that was a wheated bourbon.
Like drinking rice water. Yeah.
So you love it, huh?
So this is one I don't know anything about these guys. I like the proof on it. That's one good thing I guess. The nose is not terribly interesting. It tastes like it smells. The finishes lingers a little more than I thought the color is nice. Which makes me wonder if there's an additive you would never know right then I highly doubt to put it on the label. So.
Honestly, it's like my least favorite we've tried so far. Yeah, I would say.
Yeah, I would not pick it up again. I think it comes in around 40, 45 bucks. I'm like that. Yeah, so yeah, for same prices Woodford go for the Woodford.
Yeah, absolutely Davidson's reserve bourbon if you come across it in the liquor store. Keep moving.
Yep. Yep. But don't let this turn you off of all Tennessee. Bourbon.
Yeah, but I think it also confirms for me besides puppies, of course that I'm not a weeded bourbon guy. Like it's not my jam.
They tend to be sweeter. I don't get that so much in this one sweeter and more grainy to me. Maybe they just need a lot of age. And this case. Yeah.
I don't know. Well, Pennington distilling company. Davidson reserve bourbon.
It's like what I would expect from a boxed bourbon.
Cheers. Well, David Lutz, thank you so much for joining us on the pasture and a philosopher walk into a bar.
Thank you. Glad to be here. Thanks for having.
Yeah. So Dave, we just told our listeners that, you know, you and I go way back and you have a huge role in my life. But could you tell these guys in our listeners, just a little bit about yourself, who is Dave Lutz and where did this book come from? The book is freedom for the rugged saints, I would love to hear where that came from. And just tell our listeners about yourself, Dave?
Sure, sure. So I am not to give the whole thing born in Colorado moved to Seattle. And we really was raised up with my dad, being a pastor, and really watching him go through his own faith journey. And the moves that we made, were really around him deciding whether he could still be it, whether you could do ministry anymore, whether he'd still believe the same things he did. So went to California for a little bit when I was little, and then moved back to Seattle, really, as he was leaving ministry. So a lot of my story comes around, even watching my dad's faith journey. He then became a therapist, and my mom did as well. And so both my parents were therapists growing up, and so my dad and I would go hiking, and I'd be listening to long talks about what he was learning. And so that's when I started learning about systems theory, which is in the book and, and Marie Bowen, and just because he, my dad was learning that and then was in ministry myself for a while. I mean, there was my own journey, there was I never thought I would be a pastor. But it was just one of those things where I came out of a very chaotic time, my folks divorced when I was about 18 years old, and really kind of hit me out of the blue, and then really went into college really wanting to live the college life, I went to actually went to a small Christian school for a year and then transferred over to the University of Washington, mostly because I wanted to join my friends from high school that were living the fraternity lifestyle, and really going hard that and I really did that for about two years, until that just seems so empty for me, and just chaotic and just felt like there's got to be more for people than this and felt just very dark. It was a very dark time for me. And I remember this gal Amber Murphy, asking me to come to this thing called the end, which was the college ministry at a university Presbyterian Church in Seattle. And she asked me, Kylie, she would ask me every year and I always say, no, no, I'd known her since we were kids. Eventually, though, that one year, my senior my senior year, I said, Yeah, and I went, and that was where the light bulb went on. For me. It was like there was suddenly there were there were adults that seemed like they knew what they were doing. They seemed like they knew what they thought they seemed like they were living for something deeper, I had always had a really deep religious or a deep relationship with Jesus. That was not but I didn't know anything. I guess my, my, my prayers were very visual growing up, I would literally picture almost like looking down a tube. And Jesus was on the other end of it. And I would just talk to Jesus about my day, at the end of the day. And that was always very, very personal for me. But going to that ministry was the first time I saw other people that took that had that same vibrancy, not just a religious kind of feel to them. But a real sense of Jesus was a part of their lives. And that really jumped out at me. And so I changed course, I was on track, I was a psychology major, I was going to be a counselor just like my folks and then take a left, turn on the road and went to seminary and then had a college ministry there in Milwaukee for about five and a half years. And then now I've been a therapist for about 20, almost 20 I can't believe it. And I would say the long winded answer to your question is I love working with what I call them. The resilient people, resilient children. They're the ones that don't make sense. They're the ones that all the cards are stacked against them. And somehow they don't. They don't add up, they somehow find other resources and they, they make other decisions. And I'm an eye on one of those decisions for them. That they're that they're choosing someone that can come in and challenge them and they can move them and that that's that over time. What I started seeing is that they're they have that ruggedness because they've been through hard things, for sure. But they also have this heart that is just trying to they're trying to not settle. And that is why I call them irritates because it's not that there's somehow above other people. It's just that they're the people that aren't willing to just settle for what they got. And I love that.
So this book came
from and they're really the book does come out of a lot of conversations that I've had with those people over the years. For sure.
Yeah, you speak in the book of growing older. And you know, when most people think about or talk about growing older, it's with regret, or it's with dread or nostalgia but I don't get any Have that from you in this book? I see, when I read it I was I was sensing age as a badge of honor. And just something that you relish a little bit. Can you tell us about that process of growing old in not seeing aging as this kind of grim reaper hanging over your head, but actually a process of growth and evolution? But can you speak to just your journey as you've gotten older? And how, how that's gone for you?
Sure. It's a good question. What I would say is that one of the prime values that I was that a lot of my favorite mentors I thinking about Virgil staples at was a pastor Don Brooke for years, and some of the some of the different men and women over the years that really resonated with me, they spoke a lot about their own personal journey, their evolution from where they were to where they ended up, they weren't the same, and that that growth process, and that evolution process was actually unnatural. Like, that's what we're supposed to do, we're not supposed to end up in the same exact space that we were, I don't want to be who I was 30 years ago, I don't want to be when I'm 90, I don't want to be who I am now at 55. I want to be, I want to have grown, I want to have accepted and received, you know, more more truth. I want to see things differently than I did back then. And I certainly have I know that when I was at Princeton, I would have been one of I was on the student board of one of the most conservative, you know, students, student groups on campus, for sure. Part of that was in reaction to the amount of chaos that I had come from. And it was just it was, it gave me a sense of security really important time in my life. I wouldn't trade that for anything, but it's kind of like, for me, it's like a series of stepping stones across a river. It's like I want to at that stone was so important. I never want to shame it. That's one of the one of the push backs that can give to the deconstructionist movement. Sometimes I feel like they're talking with a sense of shame that the stone that they just came from. And I don't I don't feel that I feel like I needed that I came from a church that taught me almost nothing I went every week, when if you'd asked me, What does it mean to be a Christian? I couldn't have told you anything. And then coming to a place where some will tell you exactly what that means. And then going through that step to where now I might come back and say, I don't know, you tell me what it means. That was a really important. So for me, the aging processes. It's not just about aging, it's about growing. I know a lot of really old people who are about 17 years old, I can listen, I'll listen to them. And I'll ask them, I can hear I mean, I can even hear it. In some politicians, I'll say, Listen, I'm just gonna take the words you just said. And I'm just gonna go read that to somebody else and say, Tell me how old this person is. And I can roughly tell a lot of times when people stopped growing, they're still using the same vocabulary, they're still using the same paradigms they're using, they're still have the same worldview, their worldview, their world is as big as it was back then they just have not stretched and expanded. And that to me is missing out on one of the incredible gifts of life, I really don't want to be the same size I was. And so maybe instead of age, I would think of I would think of in terms of growth and expansion.
You said a minute ago, and if this is too personal, feel free to say so but you said that you were in one of the most conservative ministries on your campus, and that you needed that because of some of the stuff you'd been through. I wonder if you'd be willing to expand on that at all? Because I'm curious if if it was the conservative? Well, first of all, what do you mean by conservative? But like, was it the conservatism that gave you a sense of safety or protection? And if so, how? And how would you not have gotten that in a less conservative ministry?
Totally. Well, so I was looking at I know that when my folks said they were going to get divorced, I went to the Bible and said, Well, here's says you can't. So talk to me about that. And they were basically for me throwing the Bible, I was like, yes, the Bible except for one, we don't want it. And so for me being 21 or 22, that was just that just felt like chaos. And and I do have a bias that in Genesis one, two talks about the earth being formless and void, and that formless and void in the Hebrew would translate better to there was chaos and the beginning there was chaos. There's no upper down, there's no left or right, there's no left. And so God starts to do this. And we can take the literal pneus out of this and just even just look at this as an archetype. But somehow God is the first thing that God's tending to is the sense of order, there's no light, there's dark, there's land or sea was day, there's night. That's good, that's good. That's good. That's good. This is It's good when we have this sense of order. And for me, that more conservative stance where I read the Bible, and of course, I'm only reading a snippet of the Bible. So far, I still haven't gotten into a lot of the Old Testament where I really can't take some of that stuff. There's some horrendous stuff in there. If I take it literally as God's truth, but I'm not I'm not that far along in my journey. I haven't gotten there. So it's still easy for easier for me to do that because I'm looking at certain things that are more smooth, you know, more upfront in my Bible reading, like, like the Gospels, and that locking that down. So felt like, in some ways, a creation of order, in the midst of chaos, and I, I still have the bias that were meant for that order. Just I wouldn't want to have that order in the same way now, but I know what I was looking for was everything just felt chaotic. And so and when I went to Princeton, you know, people were giving sermons about going out and wrapping my arms around the trunk of a tree. And I'm like, What are you talking about? And it was just this real sense of where people were questioning, you know, different issues like sexuality. I remember sitting down and talking with the one homosexual man on campus and explaining to him clearly why the Bible was against them. And, you know, blessings on him. He was a lovely person to listen to me with patients about about that. But that's where I was. That's just that's the order. It all came in a package. And that package of what I would say was a more, and I get your, to your point, conservative can mean so many different things, I would say a more literal translation or literal understanding of some of the more upfront pieces of Scripture that get preached more that get taught more that gives Sunday schools more that felt like order out of chaos. Yeah, from.
So what does order look like for you now? Oh, that's such a good because you said you know, you're still drawn to it?
Yeah. That is such a great question. I would say that there is for me an understanding of a spectrum. And in fact, the University of Washington right now has two really big what they call a modality in therapy, which b2b A style of therapy. So one is DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. And the other ones are Oh, DBT, I can't remember what the ARO stands for. And I'm just my mind is blinking. But one is talking to a group of people that really are too chaotic. And the therapy style is really not like what I would do normally with people, which is really a relationship, I will know people over the years, they will come back to me in different chapters, I have lots of people like that, that style does not work with a certain population of people who are attending more chaotic. And so this style tends to be much more skills based and more regimented, and it's much more it's not, we're not building that relationship, because that that chaotic person can't handle that, they'll blow it up, the therapist will become either they're either an angel or a demon or they're just, they just can't they have to do this kind of discipline over here is a group of people that because they're so rigid, but they also don't like the crush the life you've been doing. Have you ever been to a garden where it's just well tended. And it has the sense of life, and it just has that fifth good feel. And then you go into somebody's yard where they haven't kept anything, it just feels chaotic and almost like it's smaller. If I leave my lawn too long, I look back at my yard and look physically will look smaller to me. But I've been to gardens to where I'm kind of afraid to touch anything. It's like everything is so prim and neat that it makes me feel kind of like wow, I don't kind of don't want to mess it up. So for me order is sort of order has to breathe. I mean, this is just Dave style. But for instance, I try not to change plans with people a lot. Because I don't want to do that, to me generates a sense of chaos for them. And I know some people they'll just want to kind of live in them. So for me order kind of shows up in ways that I'll try to honor people. I had an old mentor of mine that talks about in the beginning of Genesis it's not just about balance, but it's about God prefers rhythm. That in the seven Dave story there's there's a sense of rhythm. So for me order has rhythm. There's a rhythm in my life. I when I was doing a lot of ministry, it was like every week was just something new, as you know, speaking here doing this doing that, that did not work for me. Well, that led to me feeling more and more depressed. I didn't like it. So rhythms some is a really incomplete answer.
Rhythm if no, that's I mean, it's something Yeah, it's sounds rather Aristotelian. So I kind of like it. I mean, it's a mean between extremes. And it involves habit formation. Would you would you describe yourself as a person who likes routine?
Oh, that's a great question. Yes, I would say that. I like to keep my life there is a book called margin that came out on 25 years ago. I think in in Western culture, I was so trained, it was like, if you have a spare moment that should be filled. Should be something in it. And I love not having that. Okay, if you if you were to look at my calendar, it's very simple. I still use a paper calendar, I back it up on my phone, but I 90% of time I'm looking on paper. And there is a real simplicity to my week that makes me that lets me have margin. And lets you have space for things to come in. And go have lunch with my friend today and walk around and hear about his child going through something difficult. Because I have marched. Yeah, that's a really important value for me. My my blood pressure I have a real big value and I just don't want to be mean to my blood pressure.
Yeah, no, I'm very similar to that. Like, yeah, you know, plan spontaneity, that sort of thing. Like I don't like needing to be a place but I love like making a list and No schedule and sticking to it. Love it as long as it's not required. So if that's similar to what you mean by order, then I'm all about it. I wonder, do you think that? I'm guessing I know the answer this, but presumably you think that looks different for different people? What, what an ordered life might look like? Because you just described two groups of people, maybe one group isn't capable of something we would recognize as order, I don't know. But I'm guessing if you can, yeah, if you can achieve order in a life like that, it's going to look quite different from anything that would give me the comfort that my schedule gives me, for example. So in order like unique to the individual, or to the group or something like that,
I think you're hitting on it, Carl, I think that's a good, a good read, I am even thinking of some of the trips, you know, I've been to different countries, or places where the kind of way that I would describe order would never work. And so I think even as I get older, to your point, Randy, the the idea that I used to sit in church is one of the things that was hard for me was that I felt like there were these prescriptions that were given to me that that were implied that this is the way Yeah, and I think now for me, I'm more interested in descriptions, like this is a way I want you to think I'm not trying to prescribe to you a way I'm trying to describe a way that I have found from watching the people that I'm watching, this seems to be some commonalities, but to prescribe something that would somehow dream of transcending all cultures and time periods, to me would be now arrogant, and almost ridiculous.
Yeah. So this reminds me of what I would tell my students usually on like the first day of class and intro to philosophy, brand new freshmen, probably a little scared, sometimes I would tell them, I'm the professor there, and parents warn them about if they were religious, because it was true. The first thing you tell them is trying to describe what philosophy is to somebody that's never heard of Plato, very difficult. But the way I approached it was like, I don't care at all what you believe, right? I don't care what you believe about any of this stuff we're going to talk about, if you come out of it agreeing with me, I don't care too, you're not even going to know what I think until maybe the end of the class, if you want to know, I'll tell you. I care how you approach these questions I care. In other words, what methods you're using to investigate the questions. Philosophy is all about method. I think a decent definition of philosophy is it's the critique of methods. That's a kind of meta discipline in that way. So content is secondary. And there is literally no piece of content that has gained majority support of all philosophers, it just doesn't exist. Disagreement is pervasive and essential to the discipline, there is no single thing outside of like, very specific logical laws that almost all philosophers have agreed about. And you can always find some, some asshat, somewhere who's disagreed even with that, right. So it's the method that matters. And it's the critique and the evaluation of those methods. And for me, that's where my order comes from. I'm realizing as we're talking about it, because I think the way you order a life in a healthy way is by finding some methods that allow growth, but that guide you towards something sturdy, or something substantial, that you can, like verify has been growth, if that makes sense methods give you a way of like justifying that improvement has happened. And so I think what a lot, what a lot of fundamentalists do is they confuse method and content. And they assume that you get your order from the content. So we have our ducks in a row, we have the beliefs that you're supposed to sign on to in the right order, how you how you came about them is less important. If it's ever emphasized at all. Most of the fundamentalists, I knew if you you know, if you got them to have an honest conversation about how they derived those beliefs, they wouldn't know and they'd get uncomfortable. So it's yeah, it's like a missed focus, I guess.
Say it for me one more time that you said. You said content and method.
Yeah, yeah. So you know, what would be a good analogy. So like in scriptural study, or something like that, you can have, there's lots of different methods, lots of different hermeneutical systems for how to read the Bible. And each one gives you its own kind of order. Each one gives you a system for putting the bits of content into place, whatever they are. But the point of understanding and applying the method is not that you get the bits of content in the right place, because somebody else could use the same system and put them in different places. Or somebody else could use a different system and put them in entirely different places, because they're approaching them differently. And so what yeah, what gives me the feeling of order in a way that I think is healthy. And I'm thinking through this as I'm speaking so I hope it's healthy. Is great is comparing and analyzing and then applying methods. And you know, staying open and fallible about which method is the best for which occasion and how we're justifying them, but the content can Under comes and goes through that. So like all the stuff I believed as a college student about God, almost all of it has changed. And it's changed not so much because I thought real hard about the Trinity. And I decided that I just didn't think the Trinity was true anymore. It's because I changed much more basic frameworks and methods for how I approached the world, how I approach evidence, how I formed my beliefs. And then that bit of content got shifted to a different section of the system, so to speak, so that when I focused on it again, I realized it had taken on a different importance. So it wasn't like the thing that was crucial, if that makes sense.
I think that's fantastic. That you mind me throwing something back? Absolutely. The first book I wrote was called unnecessary error ticket. I don't use that I always joke with people, I sound like a book player. But I don't mean that. But it's the reason I wrote them is because I just wanted to have something I could reference. But that you just put words to what I did not I did not have words for that. But that is that book. It's what I what I'm basically describing is, here's the method that I landed on. Yeah, now I'm going to take all these issues, and I'm going to rewrite them, I'm just going to run them through this method. And that method is going to be what I think is after, for me, this is again, not a prescription but a description. For me, what started resonating with the three dimensional Jesus that I encountered in the Gospels. And I mean by that, not the what there's I do believe that there's a there's a core rugged Jesus kind of the you can see if you start reading it a lot, you'll start to find him in these moments. And then there's other passages where I'll see where already the religious trappings are starting to be put on him, especially like in the Gospel of John that was written much later, you'll start to see these layers being put on him that you can almost hear being part of like liturgies in church. And the beginning was the word in the words of the deacon almost beginning to hear this religiousness being put on it but there's, there's a sermon on the mount. That's where you see this early version of Jesus coming through. For me that was the appealing Jesus that was the one that really grabbed me and and is very and felt like I bet there's still a living presence coming through that now that's very subjective maybe there is maybe there's that's that's that's the important living presence coming through for me that that original Jesus was had a method to use your words Kyle, but that if you had to get a method that he was running constantly, then the method to me as I if I think I understand it was that one that God is very much the the closest analogy we're going to get is that whatever is God, whatever is the bigger than whatever is the Divine is going to be much like a good parent, a mature parent, someone who's has the ego strength to not need us to like it always makes me feel kind of creepy. When I think about spending any kind of God that would want people to sing to that God for eternity is bizarre to me. That idea of I can't stand it when people sing happy birthday to me. And by the time the song is done, I am okay, that's enough. The idea that people are going to sing that song, and then they're gonna rip it back, right? Let's sing it again. For him. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. And then let's sing it again. I've got time you know, we're gonna keep schools I got another song about Dave and then another one about how much I love the Lord Goodness gracious. I mean, I cannot make me choke. The guy that I think to this original Jesus what I call original Jesus. That's the term I use this idea of original Jesus, the unlearned, Jesus is the one that says it's like you're not going to get it God's bigger pulses of now we see only in a mirror dimly. I really think Evan Jellicle is hate that verse. And we want to see clearly but his best concept he had, he had his envisioning a healthy, mature, sane parent, that was one grid. And the second grid is you're not going to know beforehand. operatory you're not going to be know beforehand. If something is right or not, you're going to know it by its fruit, a posteriori you're going to know afterwards. And that that idea of watching food, I will know you're looking I'm looking over at this insurance and you're telling me operatory he can't possibly be in the kingdom and I'm telling you a posterior story by watching how he's exercising his faith that he for sure is and so there's this mysterious kingdom all around you that you can't see because you keep your to your point your content is getting in the way of your method. And so for me that method that boiling it down, I mean when I was walking through the hallways of systematic theologians I walk through there now and I cringe at how how it just I just like it's you're making it so much more complicated than it needs to be at CS Lewis is the one who says if you sit in for seven, six or seven year old can understand it. You probably don't either. But these theological what I call theological towers of Babel just feels like people have built one thing on another and another and another and another another by the time we get there we have words like Transubstantiation con substantiation and all these words that don't mean anything to original Jesus ever since. And so that I think, to your point that that really enlightened me to the what I think has been a real driving force for me, Kyle, which is This idea of, I'm gonna look at every issue through those two, that's my method. And it's so simple that I think a kid could do it. And that rests well with me when Jesus says, unless you become like one of these little children, you're never gonna be able to get it.
Yeah, a lot of that resonates with me for sure. Yeah, one small challenge, which may or may not be received as a challenge, I don't know, is the I think another truth, maybe don't want to put it that way. A thing that has been borne out again and again, in the history of people trying to sort these things out is that there are an infinite number of methods. And that it is possible, always, no matter how many bits of content or data you have, it's always possible to align them in a different way that fits and make sense of all of them. There is an implication of this, and this is the controversial bit is that there is not at bottom, in my view, any kind of coherent orthodoxy. And that's not just about God, or Jesus, it's about anything. There is simply no place where it is reasonable to draw the line and say, this is the method and we've got it sorted. That just turns into another kind of fundamentalism, where the method turns into content. So even if I'm really sure that I've discovered whatever the original Jesus was, for example, sure, sure. There's always another way to frame it.
I hear that call. There's that even applies and this isn't really aligned with your question, but that idea of orthodoxies that's even something that I talk about with family systems, like even in, in, in every system that a system itself will gather. And that's any group of people and any subdivision of groups of people in that within that system. So I can go work for Microsoft, and there's orthodoxies. Yeah,
I was just talking with some Microsoft employees today. And one of them cited the CEO by name almost in a reverent way. Yes, I was like, oh, that sounds weirdly religious.
And thou shalt not date and they know, Thou shalt not do this, and they'll shalt do this. And it's and then you get somebody raising their hand and say, Well, what if we did it this way, and all of a sudden, they can feel the pressure, they can feel the coldness in the room of well, you know, you don't do that without going through these XYZ steps. And there's already you have a you have a sense of challenging orthodoxy. So I like what you're saying I would, I would say that orthodoxies for me feel like a necessary a necessary step in the evolution of any group or or person, that there's that there they are the stones along the river from those stones across
and I'll say, you know, I still I'm, we're beating this horse to death. With this, and let Randy say whatever you want to be editing. Like, I still really love philosophers, for example, who build systems. And if I had the time, and I would like, eventually in my life, to have the time to build a system, on the order of, you know, the greats, Kant and Hegel and all the rest of them, like I want to flesh out as much as I can, the best methodological options that account for everything we know, I think that is a beautiful thing to try to do. If for a person that's that's capable of it. And it's a gift to later generations to try to parse through it. As long as it's not, you know, accompanied by the confidence that this is the last word, which it often was for the great philosophers. Because they're all overconfident.
Good, I like it. So we're just bouncing around. So I just, you're hinting at something you guys are talking about systems and methodology. And you in your book, you talk a lot about outgrowing some systems and forming new systems or jumping into new systems, new roles, new rules. And I love I think it fits into not just our podcast, but the zeitgeist right now in the progressive Christian world that is all about deconstruction and all about shifting, shifting theology, shifting orthodoxy losing orthodoxy losing, you know, assumptions or certainties. And you speak to it really well. And I think it's that therapist, you know, pastoral therapy, you know, lens that you're speaking from, but you yourself have gone through a season of having to just drop your faith and say, I am not, I'm not that anymore, right? I mean, you were a former pastor. So can you just take us in our listeners into that journey of what that was like to say, I don't think I'm a Christian anymore. I don't I can't. I can't believe in that anymore. And then you speak of taking it up again, but in a very different way. Can you just bring us into that world? Dave?
Yeah, sure. I think that there's been I, I would say there's been more than one, one period of time where I've gone through times of construction and deconstruction, when my folks first told me they got divorced. I went off and worked at my first camp and I just remember looking up at the night sky, really, I was out of a dark and I remember looking up at the night sky and saying I either this is either real or it's not and I don't want to have anything to do with it. If it's not and this Suddenly, this sense of real bare bones, kind of experience and, and then really, in this gonna sound really esoteric, but it's almost like an deconstructing my next level of I'm just going to live life with every whim that I have with all of my fraternity. But this I had to deconstruct that, that suddenly that paradigm that has a, there's an incredibly strong orthodoxy within that if you go into the Greek system, how this is how it works, and starting to deconstruct that, and so I don't agree with that going into I listened to some of my old sermons. And it's amazing how much I knew for sure, when I was 27. Just an incredible knowledge about how God worked that I would never be able to say, Now, the knowledge is now that I listened to and I think, oh my gosh, it's like, I had a direct hotline to God, and God told me something specific to give to you, which I wouldn't do that. But really, it my process was I was without going into too much detail, I would say that my process was fully putting my chips in my way of looking at the time, there was this book called experiencing God that was going around, and it was really about the it was, you know, in the Christian church, there'll be these kind of use the word zeitgeist, but it's kind of like, the seasons where all of a sudden, if you're not reading this guy's book on such and such, you're really not on the inner circle. I mean, it's all about now the, you know, this certain author, and this, whatever, and everybody's all hyped up. And if you're not in this book, then really, you really don't know where the Spirit is. Well, that was what experiencing God was everybody was reading it, they were book clubs on it, there was the study manual. And the idea was, you don't get what you want, because you don't pray with enough faith and enough expectancy. And I can't remember the third one, there's three things. And so I in my life, I had really put my chips on a couple of things that were really, really important to me that a lot of people praying with me and, and those things when they fell through in a way that was so for me, very, very painful. One of the most painful things that have gone through one of the only times I've only had one time in my life where I didn't know for sure if I wanted to live. And it was the it was it was one day. And I just was not sure. I don't sure if I really, really want to do this. And from that process really going in, there was a there was a service, I moved back to Seattle and went to this service called compliance or sin was a Sunday evening service at St. Mark's Episcopal church that's been going on for since 1950s. But it's been it's been a very dark room. Did you go when you're in Seattle? Yeah, it
so beautiful. And it's just this choir that sings a complex service, you can listen to him on the radio, and it still goes on. And you would go there and there would be kids with, you know, sitting on their sleeping bags and people dressed up for Sunday church and people from the street and I've been as the most diverse group of people I've ever seen in this big, empty, despicable, pretty bare bones church. And I would sit there and they would in the middle of the service, they would they would have everyone stand and recite either the Nicene or the upon the apostles creed. I can't remember which one. But I would I would not stand and there was another one cow to our orthodoxy conversation. It was orthodox for me to stand in that moment. Everyone stands. And you all recite the same thing. And then you sit down. That's the orthodoxy. It's to not stand was very unorthodox. And I could feel even the people around me that was very creative tension. But it was my way of silently protesting this God that I believe was there but had had not been faithful. And that went on for I think, three or four years. Every Sunday, I go and I would not stand. And then over time, my process and again, this is a description not a prescription, but my process was kind of going back to the, to the drawing board about can I do why? And it's more than this. I mean, Kyle, if I get into your world, I'm just gonna get schooled like a green belt in karate. I know just
green was good. So I don't even know
deemed others enough to get your ass handed to you on the streets in karate. But this idea of it was kind of a blend of many things. I honestly this is my own. This is my own description of my own process. But I just believe in a very persistent God. God is just stubborn that way. And I don't know how that works. I don't maybe I'm wrong. But my bias is that there are my experiences that God is stubborn in that stubbornness. I have this visual of Gods sitting and not standing with me in that compensates. That's my picture. The guy sitting next to me or Jesus sitting next to me also not standing. And but that still gets me Tuesday. That still gets me choked up thinking about that. So there was a mixture of my own spirit softening, just over time, and then going through some some intellectual, some intellectual exercises of just saying, Okay, let's walk it through. And do you think that there could be a possibility that all this started from nothing? Ex Nihilo and no, I don't think so. That sounds too impossible to me. That's seems like it would require more fantastical faith that if there is something, then there must be something that creates a something. And I know I've now just walked into your realm where you can be careful, be careful. I'm being real careful right now. But that was my process from from that kind of that simple level of walking it back through and, and that's where I talk about just starting to see that for whatever it's worth. And I can't put much more on it than this that I think there's a something a divine a greater than. And what I felt like was I was starting with a blank slate. And now I'm just going to take the idea that I had is what I put my weight on this, like a bucket like a plank off of a pirate ship what I put my weight on this plank. And so when you said I don't believe in the Trinity, when I put my weight on the Trinity, no, no way. Would I put your if I was in the other end, the actual analogy is is that say, I'm going to walk Kyle, I don't know that plank. Now start telling me what you believe. And the moment that you're wrong, Kyle goes down. That was the grid I was using not just what I bet my life on what I bet yours. And I found my list was so short. That that was for me where I started thinking of myself more as a Christian minimalist, or even just a God seeking minimalist, because I don't need more. And that's that's the important thing. I believe there is something bigger than that knows us. That's personal. That's not just an abstract force, because I don't I don't see that represented well, in the natural order of things. I believe that enough to have you walk out on that plank.
Yep. So let me ask a follow up, and then we'll let Kyle loose on you. But So Dave, you you know, to say you were an influential person in many people's faith journey and spirituality is is minimizing the reality. I mean, there's many people who look to you and say, I'm a Christian, or I follow Jesus because of David Lutz. And, you know, you've gotten to a point now in your journey, and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to if this is too vulnerable. But you've gotten to a point now where you you've said you wouldn't preach those same sermons, you don't have the same beliefs. you're a Christian, minimalistic, God's seeking minimalist, which I really, really enjoy. There's a lot of people who listen to this podcast, who are either pastors or former pastors or, you know, people in your shoes, dropping some of those beliefs and dropping some of that orthodoxy dropping some of those that rigidness is a very, very scary thing for a lot of people that you, you know, you face the reality of a lot of people who love you who've looked to you now might be disappointed hearing from you that like, oh, Dave wouldn't say he believes in the Trinity ironclad or, you know, this, that and the other, there's a lot of different beliefs that you probably would say, I don't need it anymore. How has that reality of the possibility of disappointing people because of your faith journey in your evolution? How was that factored into? Or not at all into what you can say publicly now? Or what you can? What you live in? Is that fear of disappointment of thing? Or is it? Are you have you found a freedom in inhabiting the spiritual place that you live in? Now?
Such a good question, you know, one of the luxuries that I have in being doing the work I do now is that I don't have anyone that pays my salary. I don't have to believe anything outside of honoring people and doing my best. And I really do those two things I try every day, I don't see more people that I can income authentically, and really care about than I do. I care about the people I see for sure. They're not just a number to me, and they and they get them. The therapists that I know that I really respect they do that too. But I know that for a long time, a lot of my when I was early on in my in my work, a lot of my referrals came because I was either speaking at churches, or because people that were working in churches would use me as a referral source. And I remember this one time when I was preaching in a church in Seattle, that I really like. And they asked me to come and do a three month series once a month that they had the status thing on Friday nights is one of the biggest Evan Jellicle churches in the city, where I got a lot of my referrals. And I remember and this is probably I don't know, man, it's hard to know now, but I bet you this is seven or eight years ago, maybe. But this is gonna sound almost embarrassing now. But I had finally officially changed my mind about the LGBTQ issue. I wasn't up in the air anymore. It wasn't an issue for me. That was debatable anymore. It's not that both sides can coexist anymore. It's just a civil rights issue. It's a it's a, it's not an issue anymore at all. And I remember I finally was just but here's the thing is that if I say that, what happens if this big powerful church stops sending people and I don't have a backup plan. And so I remember when I did this, I did a series called rethink. And the whole series was three talks, all designed for one sense on the third talk. And it was all about Jesus constant grief around getting trying to get people to rethink for those who have ICC let them see for those who have ears to let them hear this. I idea of it, you've heard it said now isolated. So much of his work was to struggle and about trying to get people to rethink. And so this whole series was building up to this one last talk, which is where I looked at the audience, I stopped, and I said, and that's why I've changed my mind about the LGBTQ issue. And then I went on, just finish this up, didn't say anything more, just that one sentence. Well, after that sermon, I had a line of people, people that were in tears. That said, I have heard people say, so now we're a little more friendly, but never have I had somebody say, I just changed my mind. And that that's an act of discipleship. For me, that's, that was the scariest moment for me, because I thought, okay, it's out. And I'll be honest, I don't get as many referrals from churches, as I used to all my people come from my people, my people refer people, I don't have a website, I never wanted one. And that's how I've done it for 20 years. What that fear of was, it was who's more selfish, like, not only are people going to be disappointed, but they're going to, they're going to cut me out. And they're going to cut out my work and disqualify me and kick me out. And I think that's sometimes is the terrifying thing for so many of my, my dear beloved colleagues, that still that's their mortgage depends on this, I don't mean to, I don't mean to paint them in the way that they're doing. Because I just think I had a lot less to lose, and I still had something to lose. So I don't judge the reason why I'm not afraid of disappointing anybody is because I feel like the spirit, just leave it's been leaning is leaning. And eventually, if you're trying your best to not just guard the walls of the church, but to really listen in to this generations chance to follow the spirit. And that to me is every generation that to follow the spirit means you are going to be looking back at what we've built and accepting that we built some of these things wrong. And that when we do that, we're going to have a clash of those people who are guarding the walls, and those people are trying to fall into it. Well, for me, I just end that, hey, listen, that's arrogant for me to say that. That's that's what I'm putting my chips on that, that I think it's right. I think in 100 years, this is going to be right. That the issue, it's already happening. When I asked my when I asked my stepson, and I told him that more guys have been part of the pastor's group for 25 years. And over time, more and more and more of those guys are switching. They're they're, they're rethinking, and I was I was so happy about this, and my son, my oldest son, he looks at me, he goes, Wait a minute, stop. You mean, they're even still talking about that. That was his response, it's already not an issue for him. And I think in 100 years, that reaction will be the same way. They used to debate that. And at some point, my idea is that we all put our chips down on the spirit in one way or another. And I, you know, that's as good as it gets for me. So I'm not worried about disappointing people, because I feel like I was broken by the Spirit, there was just too many people that came into my life that I can't argue this anymore. And what I what I have seen is over time, is it's almost like when I said that all of a sudden, 10 more people up in the congregation. So I've been thinking that too. And I would rather create space for those 10 Then worry about hurting the feelings of you know, I think when GE I always joke when Jesus went after the one sheep and left the 99, I always joke that it was because he was going after the one sheep that was sick and tired of the status quo, and wanted to spend time with that he's more interested in that one sheep than he was with the 99. So I feel like that's the model for me, I would much rather reach the 10 that were sitting in those pews feeling like they were shut up and imprisoned than trying to take care of, you know, I want to hold truth and respect. I don't want to be disrespectful. That's the one key thing for me is I don't need to say it in a way that sarcastic, I don't need to say it in a way that's demeaning of their intelligence. I don't, I don't want to make anyone feel like I'm suddenly looking back on them. And I'm looking down on them. That is not what I want. I want them to I want everyone to feel invited forward. And and that only comes to me with truth in one hand, respecting the other holding both I told the both of them. And that's hard. I can be truthful, or I can be respectful. But I sometimes minimize my truth for respect lies sometimes minimize with my respect for my truth. And for me to hold both. That's the goal for me. So I'm not worried about hurting people's feelings. But I'm also mine, I guess this is where it's at Randy, is I'm also mindful of their feelings. And I don't think I was so much when I was in my 20s I don't think I cared so much. It was kind of like, Jesus is this badass, and we're all here to kind of kick your ass. And if you don't believe it, then you know, Fu and blah, blah, blah and see you and you know, say hi to your friends in hell, I don't have that anymore. I don't have that most of the time, on my better days. So of course they still but that's what I'm shooting for you.
Good. Thank you.
So you talk a little bit about family systems theory, which I think you mentioned already. So I'm curious if you could describe what that is. And I'm particularly interested in how those systems get formed and how they change and what what kinds of triggers might need to be in place to cause one of them to change if that makes sense.
Yes, it does. It's a great question. Okay. So I would say since theory is one of what in our field we would call a modality, which I mentioned earlier, but a modality is a certain lens. So you can have systems theory, you can have emotion, focus therapy, narrative therapy. What I like, to your point earlier about different methods, that's what I liked about this field was that there was just these different methods. And you could look at the same issue and come up with dramatically different answers. And then given a given situation, one lens might be a better lens, or one method might be a different, maybe more effective. I love that. Systems theory was started by a guy named Marie Bowen in the 50s, and 60s, and he was working with schizophrenics. And what he found when he was working is that when he got their families together, that they suddenly made more sense, they just started some of the things that they would be repeating over and over again. But as he got to know their families, and really got to start to hear the dynamics and the stories and, and the events of their family, they'd say, Oh, wow, that's some of what they're still not making complete sense. Because again, it's a dissociative disorder, meaning that they're not associated with the same reality at times. This is a simplistic way of saying, but it's, you know, we all agree that it's Thursday, and may not be Thursday for someone with schizophrenia they're in, they can be dissociated from reality. So it's not like it made quick but they made more sense. And so like, a lot of what will happen is a lot of these modalities, we'll start with a more extreme population, like DBT, Dialectical Behavioral Therapy started with borderline personality disorder, Marsha Linehan at the University of Washington, and that's an extreme population, people have a really difficult time maintaining sort of a good gifted, flot and growing perspective on people, difficult, maintaining steady relationships like that they just have a more volatile kind of interaction with the world. Well, pretty soon, first, so if you were going to DBT and met, you'd been diagnosed with, you know, borderline personality sorter, it probably meant you're pretty extreme. Well, nowadays, DBT is used all over the place, because it has a lot of mindfulness exercise, and a lot of calming down exercises, it has a lot of means like which one of us don't need time, where we're going to bring down our own worked up minds and our own emotional stuff. So systems theory was a lot like that we started with this extreme populations that don't we all make more sense when we understand our family stories and our family dynamics. And so he started developing this thing called family systems theory. And that has developed into some offshoots, structural family therapy, and all kinds of things. But basically, what systems theory says is that one of the main goals is that we're trying to reach for what he calls differentiation, which means you need to become who you need to become. But the problem is, you've come from a system, and system, depending on the its own level of differentiation, its own level of valuing people becoming different. Depending on its own level of differentiation, you're going to find that to be easier or harder. And so the lower the level of differentiation in a system, of which I would propose that a lot of the church that I came from was very low on that scale, which meant thinking in a different way is very frowned upon. You'll hear words like betrayal, or you'll hear words like, problem child or the they're the source of the whenever the system, we'll look at it like it's bad, because the value is on sameness. And so the higher the level of differentiation, the more it's just understood that Oh, wow, we're all Republicans, but you say you're a Democrat. That's Tell me more. In a more differentiated system, there's more freedom to be different based on your own experience and your own temperament and your own, you know, your own story. And so family systems theory is this idea that, that as differentiation increases, there's more freedom to have a variety of different ways of thinking or being. And they talked about this idea of Randy, you mentioned it a little bit earlier, but roles, rules and patterns. So in a system, people will be assigned to certain roles. So I tell the story in ragged Saint about when I was young, I was I was often in the role of being a comedian. Because that role, helped me survive Middle School, and went to a school in a pretty rough neighborhood. And by being funny, the kids that were more prone towards fighting didn't take me seriously and would give me a pass. And I found it to be it would, it made me a lot of my friends liked me because I was funny. And there was just a cost benefit analysis that just paid to be funny. And it was part of my temperament. I just think there's a lot of life. That's really funny. But what I found over time was that role, being in the role of the comedian, kept me from being taken seriously. So I have in my practice, for instance, I'll have someone who you look at them and they are perfect. Everything they do is perfect. They've always been told they're perfect. There's such a good kid, you'll hear this from parents. He's such a good girl. So she's so good. She's so sweet. And the idea of systems theory is Yeah, that's true. And nobody's trying to do anything bad this is by the way, this is this. The idea is that it's not a matter of if it's it's what is happening in a system. But they'll say that she's so good. Well, every time that gets said it's like one little golden bar has been placed around her to never be anything but good. That now she's locked in place of always being good so she can start to feel really, really scared of ever making mistake because Why share per role is the good child, the golden child, the perfect child. And so over time that can that can develop into eating disorders or anxiety disorders or all kinds of things that because they're so afraid of never not being what this role was, or another kid, he's the problem one, and so he's always the one that's getting in trouble. And if this family would be so much better if it just wasn't, so this kid will internalize that role. And they'll take it, they'll take it from arena to arena, suddenly, there's also the problems will, there's a payoff to that when when, when someone's a problem, all of a sudden, everybody, mom and dad, suddenly they're drifting apart, this is probably more than you want. But they they're drifting apart and not in starting to not relate. Suddenly, little Johnny spills his milk, and suddenly mom and dad are together. And they're really angry at Johnny. And little Johnny starts learning on a very subconscious level that when he does something bad mom and dad stay together. And then when he starts doing something good mom and dad start drifting apart, well, there's a payoff to that role until he finally realizes that he doesn't want to be the problem child anymore. So that's systems theory is this idea of evolving past the rules. There's also you'll know, in every system that there's rules I was telling you about when I was, you know, the Episcopalian Church, the rule was, you stand, I'm breaking a rule, or there's a pattern, dad comes home late mom gets mad dad gets his beer mom blows up and goes upstairs, and it all it's like, rinse and repeat. So rules, rules and patterns, and the idea of becoming our authentic selves. And for me, freedom, this idea of freedom, like who are you, if you didn't have to follow the rules you're assigned if you didn't have to follow the rules, and you didn't have to follow these patterns, if you if you could just take a pen and a blank paper, start writing, tell me about you. Tell me your story, but start fresh. That's the idea of freedom for me. And that's why systems is so important for him. Because systems theory, Kyle allows me to see Murray Bowen would often talk about there's no, there's no solution inside the forest. You have to take what he called the stance of the observer if to be able to step out of the story and look down. And that's we're looking for roles, rules and patterns, who's in what role mom was in what role dad was in what role I was, in what role? What was your sister? And what role? What were the rules of your family? If you don't see that, it's like being down in the ocean and a rip current. And when I used to work, do youth ministry down in Southern California, every kid if I asked them What a rip current was, they'd all raise their hand. They knew what a rip current was. And they know how to swim out of what they know how to swim with it at an angle. Little kids from Seattle, they'd come down they think it was like a skateboard company or something. No, they have no idea with tennis, they've got their swimming and suddenly can't figure out why they're being swept away out away from the shore, no matter how hard they swim. People drown that way. Well, they don't know what that is, they can't see that current all the way around. You can get if you fly up on a helicopter, sometimes you'll see seaweed moving in, in the past. So you can see it actually moving on to see, but you can't see it when you're in it. That's family systems. And the lower the level of differentiation, the stronger that current is to keep you exactly where you were. long winded answer. I hope you have a good editor.
Now that's really helpful. Thanks. And I'm the editor mostly.
Sorry, for that weren't a lot of breaks in there.
No, that's all right. I have a tangential question about comedy, but we can skip it. If we don't have time. Go for it. I'm just curious. I liked what you said about comedy a lot. I appreciate it in the book. And just now too. And I have a very similar take. I think I wouldn't describe myself as like a I'm not the natural comedian. I was not the class clown. But you know, I think I'm dialectically in the context of a dialogue. Um, uh, you know, I get the jokes, and I'm pretty decent at making them. But I was never like, the funny guy. So it's nice to hear someone who was that describe it in a way that it seems as you put it in the book, it seems like seasoning rather than the main course, I think is how you said it. So I'm curious what your take is the function of comedy in general, not just like, in your own life, because it seems like I've heard very famous comedians assert things like this straightforwardly, and I've sensed it from sort of the funny people in my life too, that it's very common amongst that type of person to think that comedy is like an unassailable, unquestionable fundamental gift. And especially if you're really good at it, that there there are no limits. Like in principle, I've heard that defended by say whatever you want. Yeah. And because it serves a social role, that's good for everybody. And I will always thought that was like, hopelessly misguided. And there are other you know, comedians that I like, who push back on it sometimes, but, you know, I've heard comedians who we would all recognize and probably enjoy a certain things like that. And so I'm just curious, as the resident funny guy, what do you take? What's your take on that?
I don't know, man description for me. That's a great question. I don't know if I really thought about that too much. I wouldn't want to say too much. But I would say going back to the grids that I talked about, is tell me about the fruit. And I know that there are comedians at times where that was the way they brought social awareness to something really important and it didn't come out in a way that was very nice. Great, I can see it. And I can also see where some people are bringing some stuff out that the people that Got hurt with that joke. I don't know if it was worth it. And so to me there is, this is where to me discipleship transcends this area too. It's like, tell me about the fruit. Tell me if this. Tell me how this lines up with this idea that I'm trying to bring people forward. And then beyond that, let's have one more beer and talk about it because I want to hear more about what you think. Thanks.
Yep, yep. Speaking of beer, Dave, we usually do this in the beginning of an interview. But do you have a beer on hand? What are you drinking?
I do. I've got the I was gonna go with the body sock. I really had I had my it's one of my favorite beers, orange cannon beautiful. But then it's been so hot here in Seattle unseasonably that it just felt that felt a little heavy for me. But the Georgetown brewery here, I feel like I should be like, getting like an endorsement fee from them. Because I love Georgetown breweries here in Seattle. But I choose something local. But Johnny, Utah is my choice. It's a pale ale and it's lighter. It's crisper. And so a little less alcohol content bomb. So it's one of my go twos. I love it. Johnny, Utah County, Utah.
And if you haven't seen Point Break, do yourself a favor. And go watch point
we do yourself a I would say even and maybe perhaps if necessary.
Dave Lutz, where can people find the book? Dave? Amazon.
Yep. And I've got a I'm doing a lot. You can also follow me I'm doing cracks me up that I'm doing this. But I actually have found this new love of writing Instagram posts. I love it. So they all come from every day from one of my awesome conversations with my people. There'll be something that comes out that's smarter than either one of us could have come up with for sure. I've got stacks of paper that I will write oh my gosh, that is so good. I'm doing that. And I love that. So you can you can follow that I hate to even the word follow me. I think it's gross. But you can go and sign up for my Instagram thing. And then there's a website, but there's not really anything on the website. So Amazon's the big deal.
Awesome. As David Lutz, the book is freedom for the record saying thanks so much for joining us, Dave.
Man, it's such an honor. It really is Kyle and just so good to meet you. And I just I before I did this, I went and listened to the episode and I'm hooked. I love what you guys are doing. I think it is in this day and age. I think you guys are uniquely gifted to allow people to come in and not just deliver some academic tome that is in line with what everybody else get really get personal. You guys I think creates such a gentle space that it's it just is so easy to to share. I hope my answers weren't too long winded.
No, that was good. Really good. Appreciate that. I think gentleness is a good thing to aim for. Yeah,
you guys got that? You guys got that? So I really I hope you keep doing this. And, you know, someday let's do it again.
Sounds great. Thanks, Dave.
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