A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

Oceans of Problems: Hillsong Exposed Exposes Us All

May 20, 2022 Randy Knie, Kyle Whitaker Season 2 Episode 22
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Oceans of Problems: Hillsong Exposed Exposes Us All
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In this episode, we reflect on the documentary from Discovery Plus, Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed.  If you haven't watched the three part miniseries, it's gross, tragic, and maddening, and yet it feels like many of us in the church find a part of our story in this broken story of manipulation, abuse, and consumerism.

We talk about the fine line between being welcoming and being manipulative, how easy it is to abuse "volunteers," and how easy it is to throw anything and anybody under the bus in the name of "redeeming the world."  It's scary stuff, but these are conversations we need to have in the church if we're going to have any integrity whatsoever.

We tasted Old Elk Blended Straight Bourbon Whiskey from Old Elk Distillery, who are doing some pretty cool things.

The beverage tasting is at 7:20. To skip to the main segment, go to 10:23.

You can find the transcript for this episode here.

Content note: this episode contains mild profanity.

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Cheers!

Elliot:

So as a church musician, like, as a keyboardist, I've had the moments where, not often, but sometimes you play a certain chord or you, you sweep the EQ in a certain way, or like it's the right patch. And almost literally, you turn the knob and you see the hands in the room go up. But it's not a, it's not a good feeling. Because I don't want to feel like, like I just made that happen. And I probably know how to do it again next time.

Kyle:

It's almost like you're backstage at the magician show and you saw how he did the trick. And it loses its magic.

Elliot:

Yeah. It's a uniquely disappointing experience.

Randy:

I'm Randy, the pastor half of the podcast, and my friend Kyle's a philosopher. This podcast hosts conversations at the intersection of philosophy, theology and spirituality.

Kyle:

We also invite experts to join us, making public a space that we've often enjoyed off-air around the proverbial table with a good drink in the back corner of a dark pub.

Randy:

Thanks for joining us, and welcome to A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar. Friends, you've heard us talk about Patreon and our Patreon supporters and how grateful we are for them. And we want to invite you to become a Patreon supporter by June 4, because we're doing some special things on June 4. First thing we're doing is we're having a live Q&A for every Patreon supporter level, it's gonna be great, you're gonna be able to ask us any question you want, philosophical, theological, spiritual, booze, all of it is on the table. It's going to be live. And we get to see each other's faces on Zoom. It's going to be good time.

Kyle:

Yeah, and that'll cost you at most $3 a month if you want to subscribe at the lowest level, but that'll be for everybody.

Randy:

Absolutely. Then into the evening, on June 4, at six o'clock, we will be hosting an in person tasting for our Top Shelf supporters. This will be a fun night, our second annual in person Top Shelf tasting.

Kyle:

Yeah, we, we have usually bourbon and maybe some, some things to snack on. And we talk about whatever it is you wanna talk about.

Randy:

We have a great time together, eating, drinking, talking about things that we want to talk about on the podcast, reflecting on things in the last year. It's a really beautiful time. And we'd love for you to be there. And the way to be there is to become a Top Shelf supporter.

Kyle:

So to get signed up for this, just head to patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher. Select your tier level and we'll see you there.

Randy:

Cheers.

Kyle:

So have you seen this Hillsong documentary on Discovery Plus? I's all over the social medias recently.

Randy:

You're really asking me? I mean, you gave me your password to Discovery Plus.

Kyle:

We need an intro for the episode, Randy. This is it.

Randy:

Yes, I've seen in Kyle. I have.

Kyle:

All right. So this, this has kind-of taken the, I don't know, exvangelical, progressive Christian world by storm and for good reason. And many of us who grew up in or have spent a long time in churches and church spaces that have been influenced at least by Hillsong, if not, were outright Hillsong churches, have found a lot in this to be kind of enraged about but also a lot to chew on and see how more, how much more broadly it might apply than just Hillsong spaces. And when I watched it--it's just three episodes, they're approximately an hour each, so I just binged it--and it went from--I tweeted something like this--it went from oh, these people are just kind of, you know, silly celebrities, haha, isn't that funny, a little bit of schadenfreude there, to oh, this was more serious than I thought, there's like some cult-like tendencies, to by the end of it thinking--this is how I put it on Twitter--all churches should burn. Like these people are legitimate monsters.

Randy:

Yeah.

Kyle:

And like knew the whole time what they were doing. And it was just this really unexpected kind of experience, roller coaster that I had that I think a lot of other people are having. And I thought we should talk about this on the podcast, because there's a lot in here that's just way bigger than Hillsong.

Randy:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it feels, it felt to me very much like The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. Not as long, not as detailed, but really still well done, and just really, I think, this one even more so because there's not a central Mark Driscoll figure in Hillsong. There is Brian Houston, really effed up stuff, but at the same time, I think a lot of what you find in the Hillsong story--and I think it's called A Megachurch Exposed, on Discovery Plus--I think what you find is that there's so much resonance and in common with mega evangelical Protestant churches all around the West, basically, and I'm not even going to say the US, I think all around Western culture, that this one in particular, you don't have a scapegoat. I mean, you do a little bit, Carl Lentz sucks, you know, Brian Houston sucks, his dad sucks, all these guys suck. And I mean that in like the...

Kyle:

Objective sense, like they demonstrably suck, like, we can...

Randy:

I don't know them, but they...

Kyle:

Like, they're cringy, but that's not what we mean.

Randy:

They pulled some shady shit.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Randy:

But there's no, you know, one Mark Driscoll to be able to say that's the reason that everything went. And I don't even think you can say that about The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, but that's another story for another day. But this one, I think, should scare us. This one, I think, should actually cause us to pause, stop in our tracks a little bit, reflect. And so that's what we're going to do in this episode is just

use this story of Hillsong:

A Megachurch Exposed, and their drive, their mission, their practice, the way they went about things, the outcomes, how they treated people, how they treated the leaders, all of it, and use it to hopefully hold a mirror up to us who are part of the church.

Kyle:

Exactly. Even those of us who are not in mega churches. I haven't spent that much time in mega churches in my life, but I've seen these tendencies in a lot smaller spaces, so I guess my hope for this would be if you sense some of this going on in your own church culture, maybe, you know, reflect and ask, is this just like an innocuous practice, or is there something more sinister going on here? Or you know, me as a congregant, what, what about this, like, do

Randy:

Yeah, and full disclosure, just to not pointing fingers all the time, this miniseries, these three episodes I enjoy that is maybe, I don't know, maybe there's a better caused me to self-reflect and say what's in me that, what's attractive about what Carl Lentz did? I remember seeing Carl alternative I should look for, yeah. Lentz before all the shit came out. And I kind of liked him, you know, for some, in some ways. I mean, once I started Yep. So what we do at the beginning of all of our really listening to him, I was like, this guy doesn't really say anything. It's just all the same fluffy churchy lingo in a episodes, if you are new to A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk sexy package. But I liked his interviews with Oprah and the way he kind of was able to get around and not talk about sexuality and not, you know, be, he's a little bit slippery on things that might get him in trouble with certain crowds. And there was stuff about him that was attractive, and all of us want to be celebrities in some way, shape, or form. So the narcissism stuff made me reflect, the how to, like, driving volunteers, there's a whole lot of stuff that we're going to talk about that made me reflect what's in my church like that, or what's been in my church, because I think this is, more of that as in our past, hopefully. into a Bar, is we do a tasting of a beverage, because we like to feel like we are sitting in a bar having a conversation. And so today we have a new treat. I think it's going to be treat, we'll find out. It's called Old Elk. And I say new because it's a new distillery in Colorado. They got a really, really famous respected distiller named Greg Metze from, what is it in Indiana?

Kyle:

MGP.

Randy:

MGP, yeah. And they say he's a top five distiller in the, of bourbon, in the world. And we're about to find out. This is, this is, they made this intentionally with a lower cut, so this does not fall under the line of, like, the barrel proof fad that's going around that, some, some are delicious. They wanted one that's more entry level and that's just a very, very smooth, drinkable bourbon.

Kyle:

Yeah, I can respect that.

Randy:

Yeah, same.

Kyle:

I don't agree, but I can respect it.

Randy:

We'll see. We'll see. I like to, I like to trust the distiller.

Kyle:

Sure. Fair enough. So right off the bat, this is maybe the most banana forward bourbon I've ever smelled.

Randy:

That's a very common one for you.

Kyle:

Yeah, sometimes it's more noticeable than others though.

Randy:

It's a fruitful word, though.

Kyle:

This, to me, is just like, I am holding a banana peel to my nose.

Randy:

Yeah.

Elliot:

On the palate, it's the dried banana, like, little chips. Yeah, very fruity. Really sweet. My first sip I do enjoy a lot. It's just interesting.

Randy:

It is interesting.

Kyle:

It does, yeah that...

Randy:

It goes down easy.

Kyle:

... the banana chip, is that what you said? Like, a dry banana? Yeah.

Randy:

That's a good yeah.

Kyle:

It carries through the palate. Yeah, it's not, you know, it's not strong. Super easy sippin'.

Randy:

I think it's about five years old.

Kyle:

Does it say, or are you just guessing?

Randy:

No, I read.

Kyle:

Okay.

Elliot:

It's almost dessert for me. It's like I, there's chocolate flavors, there's vanilla flavors, there's banana, the whole thing is sweet, and eally nicely packaged.

Randy:

Not a ton of oak. I'm not getting, am I the only one? Not super smoky. It is very, it's very light. The, I like the mouthfeel of it. It's got a kind of a velvety mouthfeel to it, more than I would expect a lower cut.

Kyle:

It does, yeah.

Randy:

I would say it's exactly what they tried to make, which is a very easy drinking, neat bourbon, like, you would never want to cut this, right?

Kyle:

No, absolutely not. It's exactly as it's intended to be drunk in the glass. Yeah, all I can think to say about it is if you like bananas, you're gonna love this bourbon, I don't know what else, like, it's just...

Randy:

Wow, you get it that much, huh?

Kyle:

Yeah, it's, it's almost all I'm getting.

Elliot:

For being lower proof though, it's really full flavor, stands up for itself, like it's not boring, I wouldn't want to mix with this.

Randy:

No, no. Second sip, third sip, it gets better and better. I taste some spices on the sides of my palate. It's got a good finish, it's not, it sticks around, basically, it doesn't disappear. It's a good bourbon.

Elliot:

Yeah, maybe I haven't just, I haven't seen it on the shelves or something.

Randy:

They also have a wheated bourbon that I saw on the shelves at the local grocery store, a grocery store that has a good selection. So they have a couple of offerings. They're, for a new distillery, this is outstanding, I think.

Elliot:

I love the cork, too. It's like this little piece of stump stuck in the top. Well, thanks for sharing it.

Randy:

Yeah, yeah. So one more time, this is Old Elk blended straight bourbon whiskey.

Kyle:

Cheers.

Elliot:

Cheers.

Randy:

So my main exposure to Hillsong, growing up in the church and college ministry, was the debate over which one is better, Hillsong United or Hillsong Worship? And I don't even remember the difference between the two but basically...

Kyle:

I didn't know there was a difference until this moment.

Randy:

Yeah, like, they built an empire on their worship music,

Kyle:

Shots fired. basically. And it started way back in Australia. It was kind

Randy:

We'll get to that part when we talked about the abuse. of a prosperity gospel movement that Frank Houston, Brian's dad, who's, Brian Houston is the the lord over all of Hillsong, globally. And it started with Frank's dad who was kind of a fire and brimstone, prosperity gospel, charismatic preacher, in many ways, and kind of a televangelist in Australia. Brian was much more of an entrepreneur, a businessman, and saw the, that if he could harness the artists and the songwriting and saw all that was coming out of Hillsong, if they could use that to basically create an empire, that's a really good starting place for a church/business. And I'm gonna say that over and over again, because it's said over and over again in the documentary, and it can't be overstated: Hillsong is not a church movement, it's a business empire. I mean, there were times when I thought it more closely affiliated the mob, to be honest with you. And we'll get to that. But Hillsong, do either of you have any experience other than singing their songs on Sunday mornings?

Kyle:

I know Elliot does so I'll let him talk more than me, but like, yeah, that is my only exposure to it, but I feel like they perfected a style of worship music that was still very similar to what was going on in the broader culture, and very intentionally so--this is something they say in the documentary too--but they were actually good at it. So I've hated most church music my whole life, I still do. Anything that kind of passes under the label of worship music mostly makes me want to gag, and the, like, I can count on one hand the, like, worshipy tunes that have been really popular that I really actually liked, and almost all of them I think were written by Hillsong. And I was just today, like, going on YouTube and listening to some and was like, yeah, still kind of like this. And now I feel really icky about it. But they, you know, they, they have created spaces in which I have had what I would consider genuine encounters with the presence of God.

Randy:

Yeah.

Kyle:

And so that, to me, gives me a little bit of pause.

Randy:

Yeah, no, I mean, and, along through, you know, since the mid 90s, they've written songs that I loved and sang and deeply resonated with, whether it was the cheesy Shout to the Lord and all that baloney, or recently, like, some of the, my favorite worship songs to sing and worship to are Hillsong songs, songs like So Will I, I think is a masterpiece, and the best theology in a contemporary worship song, because most contemporary worship songs don't have theology, it's just fluffy, corny sayings that Christians think they should say. I also love King of Kings, there's a number of Hillsong songs that, like, resonate deeply within me and stir me in beautiful ways.

Kyle:

One they use in the documentary is Oceans.

Randy:

Yeah, it's huge.

Kyle:

And I went and looked up that specific rendition of it, and it's gorgeous. Like, if you watch the whole thing, that woman can sing.

Randy:

Yeah, yep.

Kyle:

I think it was like, Madison Square Garden show, which just tells you something. But yeah, like they're actually good at it. And maybe we should say, like, I don't know, and they don't get into this in the documentary, how, like, caught up in the problematic aspects of the culture the actual musicians and creators are. For all we, for all I know, they could be, you know, just as much victims of the machine as the people that are interviewed in the documentary, so what we say negative about it does not necessarily, like, it's not, it's not aimed at the, the people creating the content.

Randy:

Nope, nor the people in the churches, nor you know, a lot of peopl. It's mostly aimed at, and what the documentary is aimed at, is the leadership. Brian Houston, Carl Lentz, Bobbie Houston, which that sounds like a soul singer or something. But it's mostly directed at those characters who are driving the empire forward and will crush anyone underneath the wheels of the bus in order to keep it moving forward. And that's where you have The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill feel to it.

Elliot:

As somebody who has spent a lot of time in church music, in worship, in production, trying to make the whole Sunday morning experience really pop, it's hard to overstate how much Hillsong is the same thing as that whole culture. Like, that's, that way of thinking and of doing church has flowed from Hillsong in a way where you can't tell where one ends. So you talk about doing, not trying to aim it at the artists, but there's a, there's a way that Hillsong is expressing itself on purpose that is marketing and is this commercialized package. And that, that is what, then, people who are--you know, like the 20, young 20-something version of me--watching from our churches, trying to make our churches look like that thing, it, you know, we're also, I guess maybe I would identify with those artists, not trying to be complicit in anything, but totally embodying and expressing a way of doing church that is driven by that, by those names that you really would point at as exemplifying dysfunction in the church. So yeah, I've got a deep relationship with Hillsong music.

Randy:

Yeah. There's a few common threads throughout this documentary that we wanted to hit on that speak to not just Hillsong, because we're not, we don't want to just scapegoat them, but that we're, you'll see threads through pretty much any, certainly most evangelical, churches, and also most Protestant churches in the West. And it begs for some conversation.

Kyle:

Yeah, cuz you don't have to be an evangelical mega church to use Hillsong worship styles or content or anything, they're everywhere. I mean, it's ubiquitous.

Randy:

Or even use the business plan. And I'm not even, like, you'll notice again, I'm not saying church planting plan, or ecclesiological plan, I'm saying business plan, because that's what these are. And it's rooted in consumerism, right. So Hillsong started and exploded in Australia, they moved to Europe, and then wanted to conquer like, very much actively spoke about wanting to conquer America and wanting to send Hillsong churches to America so obviously, New York City is the end all be all of, of America. So they start, you know, they tell the story of starting in New York City and bringing in Carl Letnz, who's this kind of golden child, wild man, super attractive, super charismatic, magnet, you know, magnetic personality. And they're like, this is the guy who's going to start the thing. And they started in what feels like a club, right? I mean, most of us know the story of Hillsong, New York City, but they started in this ballroom, and they would literally have people waiting for blocks for an hour before service and they wouldn't open doors. You know, like our church, we try to have people come early, which never happens, but to be able to hang out, have some coffee, and get to know one another because that's what the church, that's kind of the, the nature of the church is relationships. Here, they wanted to, kind of from the very beginning, build it as a club. And so we're...

Kyle:

And as a, you know, as a craft beer connoisseur, like, this is a well known piece of the playbook. It's very much a build the hype kind of strategy, and it works. If something seems exclusive and it seems like there's only a short window where you can access it, that's gonna make people want it that much more. It doesn't matter if it's actually good or not.

Randy:

I mean, they would literally have people waiting in the middle of winter in New York City, numerous city blocks for an hour. And then they would literally tell people, we're all full. I mean, that just sounds like a nightclub, right? And then you get in the doors, and this was what struck me, this is like every wannabe evangelical megachurch, there's this welcome team that is so highly tuned, and professionally, like, consulted that where like, all the screens are perfect and beautiful and new. And all the graphic design is just cutting edge. And all the people are wearing these smiles and feel so overwhelmingly welcoming. It's overwhelming as soon as you step foot in this place. And that's exactly what it's designed to do. Right? I mean, and you might be listening, thinking, well, I'm on a welcome team and I like greeting people. It's kind of different, though, right?

Kyle:

Yeah, yeah, there's an air to it. This is, like, giving me like, some uncomfortable flashbacks, which happened a lot while I was watching the documentary, too. So I was in this campus ministry in college that was, had elements that were just so eerily similar in a lot of ways. And this is one of them. And years later, I realized it was a kind of proto cult, and lots of damage and lots of abuse happened that I didn't discover until much later, reflecting on it, but like, this is one of the things we did, this one things I did, like I was one of these people where, you know, every person coming through the door gets the specific attention, at least for a couple of minutes coming in and going out, of someone who is chosen because they are charismatic, usually because they're good looking, because they're able bodied, because they, you know, they embody the sort of cultural norms of successful, charismatic, confident, compelling person. And that person gives you attention for a couple of minutes just to make you feel like, you know, that they talked to me, that, that person that I kind of want to be like, even though I don't know anything about them, they just seemed interested in me. And then, you know, if they got your number, they might text you later or something like that. And that was like a huge part of our strategy to get people coming back the next week. And it worked. It worked so well.

Randy:

Yeah. I mean, as we're talking I'm sure you're thinking my church has TV screens in the lobby with a countdown clock on it till, till service starts, and my church has a very savvy graphic design team or you know, they consult with one or pay one. My church, like, most churches that, you know, people that, our listeners, have gone to probably have this kind of welcome team and this kind of dynamic, where you're just like, you're trying to make people feel so perfect in all the ways. And as I say it, like, there's nothing inherently terrible about it. But at the same time, it feels dirty to me. And as I was watching, I was like, oh my gosh, you know...

Elliot:

It's, it's great if there's a welcoming face that greets you when you come in, but when that's tuned to such a level of perfection, it almost becomes psychologically unfair.

Randy:

And manipulative.

Elliot:

Like, there's... Yes, manipulative, it's great. It's, it's like, for a while I worked at an Apple store. And like these are the same, the same techniques, like that's, this is the way that you greet the people who are coming in to get their iPhone, like you're creating a whole thing super purposefully, for the purpose of getting that buy in, and then you walk into that darkened worship center, whatever you call it, and it, even the, the tone of the room, and what's said from the stage and the music, like, any church musician worth their salt could play a Hillsong tune, like they, when they release their next album, I can play along with that whole album without ever hearing those songs before because I know the formula. It's formulaic, there's, you're, you're gonna start with the verse and then the first chorus is going to be down so you can hear the voices and you feel like you're part of something and then it develops with the next verse, and then, and then the song starts to progress. And then you get to the bridge, which opens up and like that's the part where everybody raises their hand. Like it's, and every song, song after song, is building on this experience that like, as humans, we just can't, can't resist these feelings.

Randy:

I love it.

Elliot:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Yeah. It's like drinking mead. My body is tuned to love this before I ever encountered it.

Randy:

Nice. Yeah, as you said, there's nothing wrong with a welcoming, smiling, genuine face. But when it becomes artificial, canned, you know, massaged...

Kyle:

Or even, even when it, when it, so I'm thinking of specific people I knew in this college ministry who were used in this role, and I use that word used intentionally because they were sincere. They were lovely people. And many of them really were genuinely interested in this person that just came through the door. But they were used by the leadership to you know, have this performative function.

Randy:

Yeah. And they're programmed as well. Right, like they're told, this is how we do things. This is what we say, this is what you do when you're up front. And this, you know, they're very much programmed. It's, I don't want to spend too much time on that first experience, but that was something that was like it's universal. And we do it because that's what you're told to do as a church planter, as a church leader, if you want to get butts in the seats, if you want to get people excited to be there, you have to do these things. Like, I remember walking into a local church that turned into a little, a small mega church, and as you walk in, the glass is clean, it's perfect, it's in a strip mall, but off to the right is this like huge, huge kids church, like McDonald's, it looks like Chucky Cheese on steroids. And like, it's intentionally, like, have glass around it so you can see everything, so the instant that kids walk through the door, the instant that a family walks through the door, a family knows, parents know, we'll never leave this church. My kids will not let me leave this church because it's purposely featured

right up front:

Kids, this is Playland for you, this is amusement time, which is, God bless 'em. But I was just like, that's dirty. It's just, there's something about it that doesn't sit well with me, because we want to, we want to have all the arcade games at our kids church so that our kids or our teens want to come back, or we want to have the perfect, like, environment for our kids so that the parents are locked in, we want to have the perfect environment for the adults to walk into and feel like they're gonna get into this emotional space. All of it feels so friggin manipulative.

Elliot:

So all of this, like, I agree with all of that. And then it's also super confusing, like to the point where I've all but had to bow out of church leadership, because those are, that, like, that's how you do it. Either, either you're going to do it or you're not, but if you're going to do it, that's, that's what you do and trying to be excellent, and like, do, do something the best you can, like, if you're running that kids' church ministry, you're going to get the volunteers, and you're going to put the one up front that's gonna think to greet people and to make people feel comfortable, and if you're doing the worship thing, like, you're going to try to make it sound great, and you're going to try to get people to raise their hands. So the answer isn't to just not do that. It would just, like, should we just not be doing it as well as they are? How do I approach this?

Randy:

No, I think there's a, it's a complex situation, but I think A. you can't do that with 80 people, or 50 people, or 120 people, because you just don't have the level of volunteers and the level, like the quality of people like you're talking about if you're not in a megachurch environment. And you can't have, you know, Chucky Cheese on steroids, if you're not a megachurch, because you can't just, you can't, just can't afford that shit. And you can't have the perfect environment to walk into if you're not a megachurch. I think all of the common denominator comes down to you either have to have a ton of seed money as a church plant and just hope that that, like, investment scheme works, that the $200,000 that you poured into it in the first three years is going to pay off and then you're going to be able to pay everyone back, blah blah blah. Or you built up to this point where you can afford all that stuff, and then you just draw all the people from every part Yeah. That helps. Because it's, it's intellectually unsatisfying of town who are into that experience. But there's tons of churches who don't have the resources and just don't have that experience, you won't walk in and feel like oh, wow, my kids are gonna love it here, you kind of have this feeling of like, eh, I want to, I want to check them out a little bit, because it's not like sparkling clean, or you walk in, and the music isn't playing yet because your volunteers got there late. And it's not this perfect, welcoming environment. As matter of fact, you could hear a pin drop, and it's kind of awkward. You know, like, that's the environment that many churches, most churches in America, that's their reality. And most of those pastors are super, super envious of that high production ability, that, the financial situation. But the reality is, is that COVID has beaten this stuff out of me in many ways. You know, I mean, you and I, Eliot have had many conversations of like, why doesn't Brew City, why doesn't my church have more people? And for me, it's always come down to like, because we don't have the resources to do that. So if we can, let's try to do it as excellently as possible. But for me, I do want to be excellent in what I do. But I want to be excellent about the things that I feel like are core to what it means to be a church leader and pastor. I want to be excellent at loving people well and leading them, guiding, helping guide their souls through life, all the mess and all the storms, all that stuff, I want to be excellent at that. I want to be excellent at preaching the gospel in a way that is the gospel and that isn't just some inspirational fluff that's just total BS. You're saying the same thing over and over again, because it's got to be inspirational. I want to be excellent at preaching the real gospel in the, in the scriptures. Those are the things, I want to be excellent at cultivating a culture of prayer and worship in a way that disciples people to actually engage in that in their regular life, rather than just the 15 minute experience, when it's nice, really fun, the lights are low, and, you know, do you have the right chords on the keyboard? You know what I mean? to say, like, it should just be kind of, like, hokey, and if the, if it feels like the wheels are about to fall off, that's good, and then if it gets too polished that's bad, like that, it's not that. But there's a level of intent that's important, what you're intending to do in the leadership of that church, in the discipleship of that group of people, whoever shows up. And the truth is, with a certain intent, it's never going to become that polished thing. The focus is going to be on other things. And maybe that's the way that... yeah, that's how things should be.

Kyle:

Yeah. Or a much tinier version of that polished thing that doesn't take center stage and dominate everything you do, right? Like your church, whatever it is, the thing you're calling church is going to be accomplishable, even though you're not wealthy. And what we have here, I really like what you said, Randy, because it's like, Hillsong has, probably intentionally even though a lot of the people involved in it weren't doing it intentionally, have made worship, quote, unquote, "worship," one single, branded thing. I mean, it's like, it's like a church service in a box basically, even if you can't afford Hillsong, you still know that that's what's expected and that's what you want to do and so you put your resources, whatever they are, towards trying to accomplish that, usually fail, and people end up going to the mega church down the street anyway, because they can afford to do it better. But what I hear you saying is, you know, I want to be excellent at everything, and if our service includes music, I want to be excellent at that. But also, I want to be excellent in my choices of what church is, of what to include, and how much emphasis to put on it, and how to prioritize these things, right? Because what you get in the Hillsong model is, you know, what does it mean to worship God, it means to stand in a certain formation, to face a certain direction, to hold your body in a certain way, and to sing, or at least, you know, participate in the singing of the community, being led by someone who can do it better than you and if you need to, you know, fall silent for a bit, the song's gonna go on, it's gonna sound great. I mean, it's a concert. That's very much what it is. Worship equals concert, a participatory concert. And it's just such an impoverished view...

Randy:

Yeah. Yes, that's a good way to put it.

Kyle:

... of what Christian worship has become, and Hillsong, along with others I'm sure, is largely responsible for making that ubiquitous. And it's very difficult to get away from because that's what people now expect.

Randy:

Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I have, saying this is silly because I have no problem with Sunday morning, as a matter of fact I, you know, my, my job depends on it in some ways, but if we figured out that Sunday mornings are actually detrimental to the discipleship of people, I'll shut down Sunday morning no problem. But I think there's a way to do Sunday morning that isn't so event dependent. And by that I mean, you can do Sunday mornings in a way that isn't, doesn't feel so manipulative like, like we've been talking about, it doesn't feel so canned and like perfectly, like it's, it exists in a vacuum, and you can't ever access that spirituality, that experience without being in that perfect little vacuum. Do you know what I'm talking about? You can, you can actually talk about things. Jesus challenged the shit out of people. Like, just look at the Gospels. I mean, he, he was not interested in big crowds, obviously. But he fascinated people because he undid their religion, and he undid so much of their religious sensibilities, and then rebuilt this beautiful framework and construct of what it means to be a person in this world and what it means to be a son or daughter of God, all that stuff. But there are these churches that have this little bubble that they want to exist in, and they will literally, I have, I have a friend who was a church leader, and he would say, we require everyone who preaches at our church to give an inspirational sermon. And I wanted to be like, bro, that means you can't preach the Bible, because it's not always inspiring, right? But that's, that's the, that's the brand they're trying to create. And I want to do it in a way that enables people to take this and say, wow, that Bible, the way they dug into the scriptures was inspiring, and I want to do that with my small group or with my home church. Or wow, worship today was a little bit clunky and awkward, but I actually engaged with the people together, or I actually engaged with the Spirit of God in a way that I don't need the fog machines and the, and the synths to do, I can actually engage with the Holy Spirit in a worshipful way on my normal days.

Elliot:

Yeah. It's not a person that came in the doors based on the fog machines, or the synthesizers, or the kids club area, whatever. Those people aren't going to be held by those discipleship moments, by a sense of community. It's, like there's that old adage that feels so true, like, what you, what you win people with is what you're going to keep them with, and whether you're a business, as many churches operate, or whether you're a community, like if, if that's what people are there for... well I can say, like, from a church staff standpoint, there's a very clear sense if you're part of an operation like that, that every Sunday, you have to nail it. Like the, the emotions have to run high. The lights have to be right. And the, yeah, the volunteers have to be right on point. Because if you, if you don't do that, it's, it's a miss, all the people came for that. So... And that's exhausting. And that, that sucks so much energy. And so I would say in addition to some of the destructive consumeristic tendencies that this all promotes, then there's the amount of energy, like the cost, the opportunity cost of what it requires from staff to put on that type of experience every single week. It's a mammoth effort.

Randy:

Yeah. Yeah. Which is part of this documentary is they talk to not just the big, huge leaders. Well, most of the big, huge leaders didn't agree to talk, you know, anyways, but they do talk to the grunts on the ground, who they, I would, we would say, probably manipulated and basically exploited their volunteer work and celebrated that we had people here since five in the morning, and they're going to be here after we leave, and these are, by we, I mean, people getting paid probably half a million dollars a year. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I'm talking about, well, Brian Houston made more than that. Anyways, these people that they would exploit, use, and use up. I mean, there were stories of people who would have nervous breakdowns because there was, because of the high pressure every Sunday morning of making this thing sing. And these people were literal volunteers getting paid nothing.

Kyle:

thing that really kind of broke me in the documentary, and part of it was it just gave me another flashback to my college days, was the one volunteer that they talked to, I think it was in the third episode, and she said, you know, there was always like a catchphrase or like a buzzy word, and it would always come from Brian Houston, and it would be like the phrase of the year. And she said, I remember one year it was, can you believe we get to do this?

Randy:

Yes.

Kyle:

And I would, you know, I'd be at the end of this long, unpaid shift--she was also like a student at their "college," I'm putting college in scare quotes here--and, you know, they said, you know, a practicum in one of the classes might be just going and cleaning the church or something, like, you were expected to volunteer, even as part of the degree, totally unpaid. And, you know, to have a nervous breakdown in one room and then come out and somebody'd look at her and say, can you believe we get to do this? And you have to like, put on the smile and go with it, and man, I've lived that. I've seen people do that. I've said words like that. And it's just so damaging.

Randy:

It's crazy. Yeah. When you value the product over the people, it's gonna happen every time. When you value what that person gives you rather than that person, just in who they are, in the intrinsic worth and value there, you're going to just, you're gonna get it so wrong. And it's not hard to do it differently. I just want to say that. Like, it's not hard to value a staff person's well being and their, their personal thriving over my church's personal thriving. It's easy to do that, actually. It requires you to not, like, be a slave to the machine and to be okay with, like, worship's going to be a little wonky for, for a while, but I prefer this person over myself. Or the volunteers just say like, I don't have it in me anymore. And that's, that's a moment of truth for a church leader to be able to say, can you do it a little longer, you know, because we got to keep the thing rollin, or we'll figure it out, but tell me how I can bless you, and like, once you're done volunteering here, how can I enable you to come into some health and life and find some spiritual direction or whatever. Those things are really easy. But they're not easy if you are emboldened to the machine and driving and moving the empire forward, rather than moving people forward. Right? Another big kind-of theme throughout this documentary is this craving and lusting after celebrity in the church, in the church in the West, and particularly celebrity pastors. And Carl Lentz is like the perfect...

Kyle:

Yeah, he's a pretty man, yeah. Oh boy. Isnt' he?

Randy:

... microcosm or archetype of the celebrity pastor. I mean, just perfect. The dude. I'm, I'm not gay. But he's, he's gorgeous. He's beautiful. You know, like, he's... There's a picture, there's a, there's a picture of him walking with Justin Bieber and it's, it's so dumb.

Kyle:

Justin Bieber just looks silly. I mean, he really does.

Randy:

Yeah!

Kyle:

He looks like somebody's goofy little brother. Can't even pronounce it, it's so...

Randy:

Yeah. Pastor Lentz makes Justin Bieber look like yesterday's news. It's amazing. But so, he's very attractive. He's very, very charismatic. Always has the right answer, always makes people laugh. And then, as he's built his, you Dolce and Gabbana, whatever. He was wearing a hoodie that know, brand, and as he's gotten more and more successful, I want to know what the books look like at Hillsong because this bro was seen wearing, I think it's like Vitache, I don't know the brand. literally could have sold on the aftermarket for ten to fifteen thousand dollars.

Kyle:

Oh I think that was a Supreme hoodie.

Randy:

That was a Supreme hoodie, yes. Yes.

Kyle:

But yeah, like a secondary market 15 grand hoodie. Yeah.

Randy:

The bro's wearing a$15,000 hoodie that Justin Bieber in this interview was like, Bro, did you know what you're wearing? And he's kind of embarrassingly like, like, yeah, of course I know what I'm wearing. But his, his shoes that he would just get taken, taken, photos taken of him taking his kids to school at Manhattan, they were like $900 shoes just walking around everyday life. And they're one of many, many, many many that you can...

Kyle:

And not even like $900 new shoes. These are things, so this is another aspect of, like, this stood out to me because of my involvement in craft beer culture, like, these are secondary market items in pristine condition, which means you have to intentionally track them down, because they're hard to find and that's why they're valuable. You didn't go to a store and buy this, like you got this from a collector.

Randy:

Yeah. So this, this pastor, and God Almighty, I Yeah, how much time you think you spent writing his sermons? mean, I spent the first five years of ministry working, I don't, I don't want to center myself in this, but there's many, many bi-vocational pastors in this nation and around the world who just love the church so much that they'll say like, I'll, I'll work 60 hours a week in my nine to five because that Or do you think he just improv'd it? pays the bills, and I'll do this for free because the church has no money. Those are most of the pastors in the world, I want to say. But then you have the Carl Lentzes of the world who are literally wearing a $15,000 hoodie and $1,000 sneakers. And amongst all the other baloney, and he's hanging out with NBA players, he's hanging out with music stars, he's, he, he literally will, they said if he was guest speaking at another Not a lot. Oh, man. I mean, from what I've seen, and I haven't Hillsong church, whether it's Hillsong Toronto, Hillsong wherever, he would literally fly in, take a limo to the church doors, the back doors, of course, because he couldn't go in the front doors and have everyone see him and talk to him. He would take a limo into the back doors, go in, sit in the greenroom, when it's his turn to preach he preaches, then he literally leaves, doesn't talk to a person, and gets helicoptered out of there. That's his Sunday morning experience. That's a pastor. seen a ton, maybe there's some listeners who were like Carl Lentz lovers back in the day and you would know, but it seemed like he spent the first 15 minutes of every message just like goofing around. And then he would say, he would feature the really common texts or verses within scriptures and then say the really cheesy, trite, easy stuff to say, but in a slick package where he's cracking jokes. For me, it looks like he could, he could roll in with very, very minimal preparation and just crack off a thing and enter, he was an entertainer. He wasn't a preacher. He was an entertainer.

Kyle:

Yeah, an not even a particularly skilled entertainer. He's just a good looking person who's kind of charismatic.

Randy:

Well, I mean, there were people in the documentary who said like, I was disappointed whenever Carl wouldn't preach.

Kyle:

Right.

Randy:

Like, I loved him, you know, and I loved what he had to say, I loved what he had to bring. But I think that has more to do with his personality and his charisma more than the content of this, of what he, how he dove into scriptures on a weekly basis.

Kyle:

Yeah, like a blown up version of what we were describing of when you walk in the church, somebody good looking and charismatic pays attention to you. And now it's a celebrity that's paying attention to me...

Randy:

It's a grand scheme, yep.

Kyle:

... and making me feel part of it. Yeah.

Randy:

Yeah.

Elliot:

But then as evangelicals, we're definitely going to hate on the Catholics for thinking so much about the Pope.

Kyle:

Yeah, why can't our celebrities be like, frail old men that, like, want to go and help the poor?

Randy:

I mean, not all the Popes have been like, Francis, let's be honest.

Kyle:

That's true, that's true. Fair enough. They all have been frail old men though.

Randy:

Yeah. Yep. What, what it is, is it about us--andI'm, I'm asking you as well listener, let's reflect for a second--what is it about us that creates celebrity pastors? Like, what is it about us collectively in the church, that we love to hate on celebrity pastors, but there's a new one being created every day. Literally, as we're talking, there's a person who's like, on the, on the fast track right now, in about three years, he's going to come onto the scene, and he's going to be on Oprah, he's going to be on all the shows, and he's going to be on all the morning shows, and he's going to be the new darling. And then he'll probably crash and burn, unfortunately. What is it about us that creates that?

Kyle:

Do you have an answer?

Randy:

I'm asking, I'm literally, I'm asking a question.

Kyle:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a fairly straight path from what we were talking about before to a kind of celebrity culture. It's just the more money a church gets, the more heightened all of those habits get, the more we can put into the production and the more we can make you have that feeling successfully every time, our consistency increases with our budget, and eventually that just ends up with a celebrity, because you're gonna put your stuff on YouTube, you're gonna put your stuff on social media, the production has got to be really good, you're gonna get the views and the downloads and whatever. And the bigger the audience gets, I mean, that's just the creation of celebrity, so I think it's just kind of the result of a large budget used in this way.

Randy:

It's part of the recipe. It's part of the recipe.

Kyle:

It's the outcome. Whether it's part of the recipe or not I guess maybe depends on the church itself.

Randy:

It's like the finished product basically.

Kyle:

Exactly. It's where it's gonna go. And I think for Hillsong, undoubtedly, it was the recipe. Like, I think they establish in the documentary that this was the intention from the beginning and, and that they speculate, I don't know if there's anything to this, but they speculate that Lentz was maybe fired not so much for his infidelity, which sounds like it was a long known thing, but...

Randy:

Yes. And not an isolated incident.

Kyle:

Not at all. But perhaps outshining the boss.

Randy:

Yep.

Kyle:

Because if you watch Brian Houston, he's not Carl Lentz. Decidedly not. He's not very charismatic.

Randy:

He's more James McDonald.

Kyle:

I mean, he has his, you know, his own version of charisma, I suppose, but it's more of a, kind-of, almost awkward old manish kind-of, but he has an accent, so to an American that might seem cool, I don't know.

Randy:

Well he's, he's a good visionary, though, and I want to come back to that in a couple minutes.

Kyle:

Yeah, he's like, he's the, he's the planner, but you get the strong sense that he wants to be the frontman too. He's kind of like the lead guitarist that wants to be the lead singer. And so yeah, that's just speculation, but it does make sense, it jibes with, so like, I think he always intended for that to be the outcome. He just wanted to be the celebrity.

Randy:

Yep.

Elliot:

Well, if you're selecting a pastor based mostly on their ability to appeal to you in, in a sermon, like to trigger, like, to make you laugh, to make you cry, to do all of the, like, to just give you a nice little sermon package, which is the criteria for most churches in their selection of that person. Like, you find the ones that are just amazing at what they do. And it's just like any good motivational speaker, like that's what we want to hear, and it makes us feel good. And the celebrity thing is almost a bonus, because there's, there doesn't have to be this relationship or awareness of them towards me. It's just that I get to consume what they would create. And, yeah, it's good. It really is good. If you choose a pastor based on other criteria, like their ability to shepherd or to create a culture of discipleship, I think those things don't distribute quite as well. But, but that's usually not the criteria.

Randy:

Yep. Speaking of celebrity we have to mention this. The, the way they rolled out the red carpet for celebrities in New York City, because they were getting A-listers. Kardashians and Biebers and you know, athletes on the New York Knicks and all of the people.

Kyle:

Bono apparently, I don't know for how long, but you know he walked in and was like "Hmm where'd you get that riff?"

Randy:

Yeah, hopefully Bono is, was was healthy, healthily skeptical, but they would literally have the first few rows reserved, roped off for celebrities so that you would see celebrities first and foremost when you walked in the doors, and then they would also section those people off so they wouldn't be bothered. And they would basically roll, literally roll out the red carpet, they had a special door for celebrities that they could walk into. I wish I had a Bible in front of me, the book of James has a little bit to say about giving the best spot at the table to the most important people. And James was pretty upset about it. Jesus in Luke 15, I think says the same thing.

Kyle:

Yeah, there's a parable, or maybe not even a parable, like there's a thing directly about this thing. The rich people are coming in and eating all the food and you know, sitting at the best parts of the table before the poor people

Randy:

Yeah. I mean, and this, this isn't just Hillsong now, I can. sat down with a, a megachurch pastor several years ago, he wasn't in our area, but he has roots in our area. And we had lunch, and he asked me what I do and what our practices are, and one of the big takeaways that he recommended, strongly recommended, was that--so first of all, I don't know who gives what in our church, and I never have, never will, I don't want to base my relationships and my influence and my, you know, preferences on who gives what--but this pastor was like, you need to know, like, you have to know who your biggest donors are, and then you have to take them out and like, kind of basically wine and dine them and really show them what you're doing with the investment that they're making in their, your ministry. You got to kind of be a business person about it and show them their ROI in the kingdom of how much they're giving and all that stuff. And it was very much this, like, how are you not doing this? Like, if you're going to retain those big givers, this is what they expect. And that is this just behind the scenes, right? That's, that's rolling out the red carpet for the deep pockets so that they can, we can actually retain them and keep them and make them feel more important than the average Joe or the recovering addict or the person who needs our benevolence fund money to buy a car because theirs broke down and they can't get to work, or the family who needs rent. That's, it's... I got no words. I got no non-expletive words.

Elliot:

Yeah, and that's not only, the celebrity thing, that's not only about financial resources, but that's proximity to power.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Randy:

Yep.

Elliot:

Proximity to celebrity, like, that's, that seems to be a big part of the recipe, at least at Hillsong New York.

Kyle:

Yeah, that's another thing celebrity gets you is proximity, there's a scene with Brian Houston walking out of the Oval Office, having just prayed for President Trump, just gleeful.

Randy:

Yes, oh, so happy.

Kyle:

Like, this is what I always wanted. And that again, gave me a flashback to my pastor who got this chance meeting with a Senator, I think I've told part of this story on the show before, or at least a Congressman, and like the whole ride back from DC was just like glowing like he had just, you know, made it, like this was what he was aiming for the whole time, you know, what, you know, it was like one of the clearest ways God had shown up in his life was that he got to rub shoulders with this Congressman.

Randy:

Yeah, yep. And I want to say again, this isn't the story of every church in America and around the world. There's some beautiful things happening because of a lot of beautiful people. But there's too much of this, that we have to speak to it, we can't just not name it. We can't let it slip under the radar. And part of the reason is because it's not slipping under the radar. People are leaving the church and leaving the faith because of this bullshit. That's, that's the reality. The other major thing within this documentary, this three part series, that kept coming up was the megachurch thing, you know, the empire that is Hillsong, that they would, you know, had, kind of had this cookie cutter approach to church, if you want to be Hillsong Church, here's what you got to do, here's the things that you, the resources you got to have, here's what you got to say, here's your church government, all that stuff. It's not all bad. But then also it's made to become a megachurch. It's 100% made to become a megachurch. And there's this story at the end of it where Brian, Brian Houston now has resigned. just recently, I mean, I think, a month or two ago, because he's under investigation for helping his dad hide the fact that he was a pedophile.

Kyle:

An abuser, not just a pedophile, an active abuser.

Randy:

Yes, yes. And Brian Houston is being interviewed by Savannah Guthrie on the Today Show, big time reporter, and she is savvy enough to say, to ask this question: isn't it just too big? Like, isn't it just like, you guys had good intentions maybe to start with, but now it's just gotten to be too big of a thing, where it's out of control, and maybe you should just like break it up? And he said, I don't think it's possible to have too big of a church. And I was like, Savannah effing Guthrie can see that this thing's too bad, and this guy is still drinking the Kool-Aid thinking, nah, it's not possible dude. I'm building an empire and this is world takeover here, and that's where...

Kyle:

Like, literally world takeover.

Randy:

Literally.

Kyle:

Like, they have a drawn out plan with a name and everything.

Randy:

So that's where, this one, this is one of the things that hit close to home, they have this, they go into the background of this world takeover, because if you'll see in the, you'll see in the beginning where Brian Houston is talking and he's like, I see a vision of churches planting churches planting churches, and I see a vision of churches taking over a culture, taking over cities, taking over societies for the kingdom of God, I see a vision of, you know, multiplication, you know, I'm just using all the words because this is very, very common coming out of the mouths of people like me, church leaders, movement leaders. And they even cited this idea of the Seven Kingdoms or the Seven Mountains, I'm sorry, within society and how we the church need to basically infiltrate and take over in their government, business, art, you know, entertainment, whatever, they have these Seven Mountains they call them, and it's crazy because I was discipled in the school that featured this Seven Mountain idea of like, kind of infiltrating and redeeming, so you use these words, and it becomes palatable, "redeeming society."

Kyle:

Yeah.

Randy:

Redeeming every area of culture, to the point where the gospel is, has gotten under the, is growing roots under our very culture, and that's the dream. All of that doesn't sound terrible, right? Like all of that sounds, it gets young people super excited, and it sounds even somewhat biblical sometimes. But I want to say that that kind of thinking, I remember being in those classes thinking, this feels a bit much, like it just, it feels a bit much, feels a little culty. But even since then, of watching this with Hillsong, and then it's caused me to reflect on our own cultures, you put the word"redeem" into this stuff, you put the word "transform," transforming culture, redeeming culture, redeeming cities. I still like those ideas. But it gets really weird really quickly. If you're just like, that's the vision, and that's where we're headed towards, and that's what Brian Houston was really good at, he wasn't a charismatic dude, he's not a, he's not the best sermon preacher, but that dude holds to the mission and the vision of the empire, and that's why it is an empire, because, because he's centrally focused on that. And that's where I want to say, church leaders, church people, myself, when you use the words like redeem and transform and you know, "reorient," it becomes kind of this churchy veneer where we don't even recognize where we're becoming cultlike, where we're becoming those weirdos who are trying to get everyone to drink the Kool-Aid. And here's what, like, what feels better to me, is we have our, we have the incarnate God, comes in Jesus Christ, and he just says things like, a new

command I give you:

love one another. Period. That's the mission. What's the greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. You have answered correctly. Go and do likewise. Jesus was very simple. Jesus didn't have these world takeover, crazy, slickly-worded missions. He just said, I want you to love each other, because you're perfectly loved by God. That's what it's all about. That seems way less culty, that seems way less icky to me. And there's no bad outcome that comes out of just being discipled into loving people really well, the people around you. Am I making any sense?

Kyle:

It's also important to note, as of course you know, that he then demonstrated explicitly what he meant by love, right? Because love is another one of those terms that gets weaponized.

Randy:

Yes.

Kyle:

In these very same environments, most of their adherents believe that carving up the world in a certain way and making sure we're very clear on who's in and who's out and how we're treating the people who are in versus those who are out, that that's the loving thing to do. And that you know, shunning them or making clear what God's judgment for them will be, that that's, that's the fullest expression of love for those people. So it's important to be clear about what he meant by when he said love God.

Randy:

Love looks like washing people's scuzzy feet, love looks like hanging on a cross and whispering words of forgiveness.

Kyle:

That's not something that keeps people coming back to your worship, I've been in church services where they washed each other's feet, and I didn't go back.

Randy:

I've never done it, because I don't want to.

Kyle:

It's gross.

Randy:

Yes.

Kyle:

It's really gross, intentionally so.

Randy:

But love does look particularly like something.

Kyle:

Yeah, exactly.

Randy:

It's agape love.

Kyle:

It has a definition. It has a character. It has a concrete identity that is one thing and not other things, and we can, yeah.

Randy:

And that's, that's the thing is it's easy to throw people under the, under the wheels of the bus of the empire. It's easy to have volunteers having nervous breakdowns in the back room because they've been there since 5 am and they're gonna be there till 5 pm on a Sunday. It's easy to have people disillusioned afterwards because they had these mantras like, do you believe we get to do this, right, when it's all about world takeover, when it's all about we are transforming the world, I have the vision, and we have the mission of churches taking over society, when you use that kind of language, everything becomes permissibl then. Right? Because...

Kyle:

Because there's no higher stakes.

Randy:

There's no higher...

Kyle:

I mean, this is just Scientology. I thought about that several times in the documentary, it even was referenced one time because the whole celebrity culture thing was perfected by Scientology. It's just right out of their playbook. And that's the whole thing, like if you believe that what we're asking you to do is the most important possible thing in existence, the world itself literally hinges on you getting on board with this, you can justify anything.

Randy:

Anything.

Kyle:

You can justify disowning your child, abandoning your spouse, never speaking to them again. Anything at all.

Randy:

Yep.

Kyle:

It's so effective, and it works.

Randy:

Yep. But when you're calling people to the way of love, you can't do anything. And you might not actually be as efficient at world takeover, right? Like, it's slower.

Kyle:

Yeah. And part of the reason for that--and we've hit on this numerous times on the podcast--part of the reason for that is love requires humility, and humility requires that you admit you don't know some stuff. Right? And, and you can't convince somebody to disown and shun their family by revealing your lack of confidence in the message, right? So if love entails being honest about your confidence, it's just not gonna work. You can't, like, you know, use love in that way. Not, not genuine love anyway. One thing, and this is kind of a throwaway aside, but it strikes me, I've never encountered a group that uses a specific number of something that didn't turn out to be a cult, or some kind of a cult. So if someone approaches you and says, you know, here are the Seven Kingdoms that we need, here are the Seven Mountains, or here are the, you know, the 12 Rules for Life, or here are the Fivefold Ministry, right, there's this specific number of them, and we got them perfected, there aren't any more, there aren't any less, this is what it is, this is where all your focus should be... That's a cult. Run

Randy:

I mean, charismatic friends, forgive him for away.

Kyle:

It was intentional. That phrase is, yeah, that is a... mentioning the fivefold ministry, it's in Ephesians.

Randy:

It can get weird. It can get weird, yes.

Kyle:

That is a misinterpretation.

Randy:

Yeah.

Kyle:

Or any of the lists of gifts or, or fruits or any of that, it's, why do we think Paul was trying to be exhaustive?

Randy:

Yes, that's...

Elliot:

Yeah, just don't mess with TULIP.

Kyle:

You said it, not me.

Elliot:

So we still singing Hillsong songs or nah?

Kyle:

I'm not kidding, man, I still like them.

Randy:

I do too, yeah, I'm in.

Kyle:

You know, I'm not super into worship music, but like, they were specifically crafted for that kind of space. And if you have that, if you want to have that as part of your service, it's really difficult to do better.

Elliot:

Which, which we do?

Kyle:

Well, I think that's, that's an individual choice.

Elliot:

Yeah. Because there is so much of this toxicity that's built into that culture, and even written into that music, so maybe we're just supposed to live in the tension of it. But that's thick for me.

Randy:

Yeah, no, I get it. I mean, for me, I can easily, more easily write that off because that song writer isn't Brian Houston or Carl Lentz or, you know, attached to the, the toxicity. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, I'm not sure.

Elliot:

It's the air they breathe.

Randy:

Yeah, sure. Yep. But I think they were also taken advantage of.

Elliot:

Yeah.

Randy:

I think they were used. I think there's a lot to it. And I would like to talk to some of those artists before I write them off. And some of the pastors who were part of those machines. Here's, we're not done yet. Just, we're gonna talk about abuse in a second, and we don't have to put this in, but here's, to wrap this section up, the body of this, this episode, here's a thing that is scary. It's literally scary to me. This shit works. All of what we've been talking about, the consumerism, the welcoming teams, the creating a culture and an atmosphere in a vacuum and manipulating people in worship, the celebrity stuff that we try to build up the mission and visionary stuff. All of this, and the fluff as well, like the sermons that don't have much content whatsoever in them.

All of it works. And here's why:

because people love it. Like, they're megachurches for a reason.

Elliot:

Yeah.

Randy:

Because thousands of people go to them. And the people down the road who are way more awkward and probably way more Christlike, have 68 people in them on a good day. You know? Why is that? Like, this is where I want to reflect together, the three of us, but also listeners, why is it? What is it about that that sells? What is it about that, maybe you find yourself in that context right now. Maybe you just got out of it. Maybe you grew up in it. I don't know, but what is it about it? Why does it work so damn well?

Elliot:

It's a marketing playbook. Like you compare that megachurch to some national brand that's got their shit together, and they are, like, they know exactly how to message to the person they know is their consumer. It's firing on all cylinders. And then you compare that to some small business that doesn't, doesn't really feel comfortable self promoting, or doesn't know how to, how to write that messaging, how to, how to spin up the distribution machine, whatever. It's pure marketing.

Randy:

So I agree with you. That's part of the problem, that it is pure marketing and it's knowing your demographic and all that stuff. But also, I don't want to let the average churchgoer who populates them and makes them a megachurch off the hook either, because I think there's something... is there something in the average Christian, let's just say in America or in the West, that desires fluffy, inspirational, nothing over deep, gritty, real talk? Is there something that like, we like, we like to be entertained more than being invited into something real? You know what I mean?

Kyle:

So, yeah, I think the answer to that is definitely yes, there is. There are a lot of people who just prefer that, and who are aware that they just prefer that. Whether or not they're honest about it is a separate question...

Randy:

If they're honest with it, great, praise the Lord.

Kyle:

... and I think it depends on the case. But I think there's also this phenomenon, and I noticed this a lot in the documentary and I've noticed it a lot in reading about cults and whatnot, of, there's a, they don't, they don't project that this is shallow. On examination, you discover that it's shallow. Or I've never felt that type of family before. That was a common If you thought about it carefully, you'd discover that it's shallow. But just, if you don't do that work, right, if your entire church experience is just going to the service, and then maybe reflecting on the service with some like-minded friends afterwards, you can come away with it thinking it was deep. And that's, several of the people in the documentary who have left it and who agreed to be on this documentary talking about how it damaged them, were still prone to say, you know, but, fill in the blank, there were these like, good aspects to it--the preaching was, was good, it made me feel certain things, I, you know, it's almost like they missed certain parts of it--and they had a tendency to maybe write off, even though, even while recognizing all the terrible stuff that Lentz did, maybe justifying some of it? Maybe he was, you know, what was the, what was the phrase they used, "power corrupts," right, maybe he was corrupted by the power, he got a little too close to that, and his original gifts were kind of overshadowed. Same thing happened in The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, you get some people coming out of it saying, yeah but, you know, he's an asshole for sure, but he's so good at fill in the blank... one with Mars Hill. Yeah, so it can be directed at the community, it can be directed at the figure at the head of the community. And so there's this, I think, often intentionally constructed facade of depth that overlays a lot of emptiness. I mean, they have a college. You don't get an education there unless it's in, like, how to put on a worship service, I'm sure it's a great place to study that, but like, you're not gonna learn, you're not gonna get a degree that's transferable anywhere else, gives you any kind of expertise in anything other than that. So yeah, they, it's part of the marketing, right, to be, this isn't just that, it's a, it's a program that tells you it's not a program.

Randy:

Yeah.

Kyle:

And if you don't look under the covers, if you're, if you're just content psychologically with the experience of it, then you don't have to discover that.

Elliot:

Yeah. There's, uh, as humans, we want transcendence,

Randy:

Yep. right? So if there's, if we're able to be a part of something that's so much bigger than ourselves, like there's this, a megachurch creates this fast moving river that you can just jump in and get swept up into the world of volunteering and meaning. And, yeah, you feel like you're a part of something truly significant, because you are, there are massive resources dedicated to the same thing that now you are trying to

Kyle:

I think some of it goes back to what Thi Nguyen said accomplish. when he was on the show. There's a feeling of clarity that you get, and that, that feeling is easy to come by when you haven't done the work because if, if you trust that someone else has done the work, and then they deliver to you the conclusion of what you assume to be the work, you don't have to do it yourself. You just take their word for it. And you get the feeling that you think would come at the end of a careful investigation, but you don't have to do the careful investigation. So when Carl Lentz says, like I've heard many people in my own life say, we're not a cult, look, cults tell you that you should believe whatever they say, they try to control your thoughts, I tell you you should go check it out for yourself. Right? That serves a kind of covering function. It produces clarity in the hearer--oh, well, he obviously has investigated it because he's up there on stage and they wouldn't put somebody up there on stage if they hadn't done the work to investigate it, surely the system has vetted him, and so if he's telling me this isn't a cult, clearly it's not a cult, and he is telling me to go check it out for myself, so I assume that if I did I would end up agreeing with him.

Randy:

Because he knows nobody's gonna. Yeah.

Kyle:

Of course. And I, you know, I don't have to, the psychological work has been done for me.

Randy:

Yes.

Kyle:

I just assume that they know what they're talking about.

Randy:

Yeah. Which, that episode with Thi Nguyen would be a great companion to this episode, so if you haven't listened to it...

Kyle:

Yeah, which would probably bother him.

Randy:

Yeah. Well I think no, I think he was, I think he was kind of fascinated by the fact that like, the stuff that he talks about happens in churches intentionally. So if you haven't listened to the episode "Porn, Games, and Echo Chambers," go back in our catalog after this one and listen to it. And yes, that, that title is not sensationalized at all.

Kyle:

Not at all.

Randy:

So I hope this episode, and I hope this documentary on Discovery Plus, just causes us, not, I'm not finger pointing, not scapegoating, just causes us to reflect. What in me creates the phenomenon of celebrity pastors and mega churches and consumer culture in the church? What in me enables and creates that? What in me as a church leader props that up and tries to chase after it and loves the numbers and the financials being huge and high and all that stuff. What in us is creating these dynamics? Because it's, there's got to be a moment where it's not just everybody else. It's, it's us now.

Kyle:

Yeah.

Randy:

And repenting is really simple, right? Like, it's the core thing that Jesus preached over and over again, repent for the kingdom is here. Repenting just means changing my mind and turning around and living in another direction. We can do that as church leaders. It's very simple. It's easy to say I got it wrong. I wasn't doing it right. It's easy for us to say, as church members, I think I'm here for the wrong reasons. I think I'm looking for a church for the wrong reasons. It's easy for us even to say, and for some of us who have written off church because of the stuff that we've talked about, I want to encourage you, there are tons of churches that aren't like this. They're not perfect. You're gonna find a lot of shit in every church. But there are a lot of churches that are not evangelical Protestant mega churches that are consumed with celebrity and bottom line and making tons of money and pulling off the perfect experience. You just got to look for em and you got to be willing to go to them and be, sit in some awkward spaces sometimes and be around real people and have it be around people again, rather than a product. Reflecting and repenting is not hard. It's easy stuff if we're willing to do it.

Kyle:

Well, that's it for this episode of A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar. We hope you're enjoying the show as much as we are. Help us continue to create compelling content and reach a wider audience by supporting us at patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher, where you can get bonus content, extra perks, and a general feeling of being a good person.

Randy:

Also, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, and Spotify. These help new people discover the show and we may even read your review in a future episode. If it's good enough.

Kyle:

If anything we said really pissed you off, or if you just have a question you'd like us to answer, or if you'd just like to send us booze, send us an email at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com.

Randy:

Catch all of our hot takes on Twitter at@PPWBPodcast, @RandyKnie, and@robertkwhitaker, and find transcripts and links to all of our episodes at pastorandphilosopher.buzzsprout.com. See you next time.

Kyle:

Cheers!

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