Self-care, Mental Health, and COVID-19: Interview with Jenny Heckman

In this episode, we interview Jenny Heckman (MS, LPC, NCC) about dealing with anxiety and staying mentally healthy during the pandemic. Jenny is a licensed professional counselor and a former pastor, and we think her insights here are important and timely.

The beer featured in this episode is Strawberry Rhubarb Wild Fruit Ale by New Glarus Brewing Company.

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Transcript

00:00

[Music]

00:14

welcome to a pastor and a philosopher

00:16

walk into a bar

00:17

where we say the things you wish your

00:19

pastor or your philosophy professor had

00:21

said to you about god

00:22

spirituality and the church

00:24

[Music]

00:28

well welcome friends to another episode

00:30

of a pastor and a philosopher walk into

00:32

a bar

00:33

today we are going to be speaking to a

00:35

great friend of mine

00:36

who is a was a pastor i see her still as

00:40

a pastor

00:41

a colleague of mine close friend and a

00:43

professional

00:44

counselor a therapist i think you're

00:46

going to find no matter how

00:48

you've experienced this year with all

00:51

the trauma involved in all the chaos all

00:54

the

00:55

all the things this episode is going to

00:58

hit you

00:59

in some way shape or form at some point

01:02

i guarantee you just listen long enough

01:04

and what jenny brings is going to

01:06

resonate with your story

01:07

so i'm excited about it but first before

01:10

we get to jenny kyle we need to hear

01:12

about what we're drinking today because

01:14

this

01:14

we obviously are in this proverbial bar

01:17

so what are we drinking today kyle

01:19

today i have for you guys a fruited ale

01:23

from new glarus brewing company

01:26

this one is one of a line of fruited

01:28

ales that they do this one is the most

01:30

hyped most sought after

01:32

of their fruited ales this one's

01:33

strawberry rhubarb

01:35

which is a very wisconsin thing i'm from

01:37

kentucky i had no idea what rhubarb was

01:39

before i moved to wisconsin

01:41

but like every wisconsin grandmother

01:44

makes strawberry rhubarb pie i found out

01:46

and it's incredible so somehow new

01:49

glarus has figured out how to bottle

01:51

that flavor

01:51

and that's what we're drinking here new

01:54

glarus interestingly they only

01:55

distribute in wisconsin

01:57

so their beer is widely and easily

01:59

available

02:00

everywhere in wisconsin but nowhere

02:02

outside of wisconsin so everybody that

02:04

comes to visit

02:05

wants this so they make spotted cow if

02:07

you're familiar with that

02:08

everybody outside of wisconsin loves

02:09

spotted cow uh but this is my favorite

02:11

new glarus brew

02:14

another reason to come to visit

02:15

wisconsin yeah it's like it's the color

02:17

of cranberry juice i think it's a close

02:18

it's a deep red

02:19

yep you almost have to hold it to the

02:21

light to see through it so kyle in my

02:23

limited co-drinking experience with you

02:25

it seems you have a propensity to fruity

02:28

beers is that definitely is that true or

02:30

is this just coincidence

02:31

that's definitely true especially in the

02:32

summer time so we're launching this

02:34

podcast in the summer time and that's

02:35

why we're drinking all this heavily

02:37

fruited stuff

02:37

when it gets colder we're going to see a

02:39

lot more traditional ales and stouts and

02:42

stuff like that

02:45

all right well cheers

02:48

wow that's good the strawberry

02:50

definitely hits first

02:51

strawberry it's a strawberry rhubarb

02:54

for me it's like it's got that bright

02:57

effervescence which i really like

02:59

um it's got the tartness right away but

03:02

on the back of my tongue

03:03

i get this am i crazy or do i get this

03:06

barney

03:07

almost like not barney the the purple

03:10

dinosaur but

03:11

barn-like flavors and then almost

03:14

almost like stinky cheese on the back of

03:16

my tongue

03:18

it's probably the rhubarb isn't it it's

03:19

kind of get that pungent uh

03:21

bitter flavor is it not that yeah i

03:23

think bitter is right yep

03:25

yeah it's it balances really well

03:28

yeah it's like a you're eating fruit in

03:31

a barn

03:32

that has hay and some funk in it

03:38

losing my appetite

03:39

[Laughter]

03:41

you're basically describing their their

03:43

brewery setting

03:44

like if you go visit them that that's

03:46

what you're gonna see

03:48

the nearest thing is a barn in the field

03:50

adjacent to their brewery

03:52

this tastes like new glarus awesome

03:54

amazing so you said this is

03:55

sought after this i'm assuming like is

03:57

only released once a year

03:59

once maybe twice a year i think

04:01

something like that

04:02

but you could they don't announce it

04:04

maybe on their instagram they might put

04:05

up a post as it's coming out so you have

04:07

to look for it and then know where to

04:09

find it and

04:10

kind of get a little bit lucky thank you

04:13

for sharing yeah thanks for bringing

04:14

strawberry rhubarb i highly recommend it

04:16

cheers

04:21

so our guest today is jenny heckman

04:24

uh jenny used to be a pastor at brew

04:27

city church

04:28

alongside randy and i uh so she was my

04:30

pastor for several years

04:32

uh and now she is in full-time uh

04:35

therapy or therapist

04:36

what's the official title there what you

04:38

got a lot of letters behind your name so

04:40

how do you describe yourself the

04:43

official title is a licensed

04:44

professional counselor

04:46

okay so do psychotherapy with

04:48

individuals families

04:49

couples great and we wanted to have

04:53

jenny on the podcast mostly because

04:56

we're in this really weird time with

04:57

covet 19

04:58

and a bunch of other stuff going on in

05:00

our country and there's a great deal of

05:02

anxiety

05:03

and sometimes that anxiety board is on

05:05

outright panic

05:07

and jenny is especially suited to help

05:09

us figure out how to deal with that sort

05:11

of thing so we're really excited to have

05:12

jenny on the podcast today

05:14

jenny we like to ask our guests uh what

05:16

they're drinking

05:17

uh since that's part of the theme of our

05:19

podcast so so what are you drinking

05:22

i am drinking a lovely chilled pinot

05:25

grigio

05:26

very nice chill to uh called josh

05:30

i don't i couldn't tell you the

05:31

temperature i just know that it's nice

05:33

and chill

05:34

my wife and i were uh members of a wine

05:37

club for a while

05:38

so we got kind of nerdy about it and

05:40

they say it should be around 50 degrees

05:42

or so but i don't know if that's real

05:45

of course

05:49

so jenny hello good to see you good to

05:52

see you on the computer screen that is

05:53

in this covet time um

05:57

you can something you can feel in our

05:59

world that's been happening in our

06:00

nation

06:01

more and more and more just growing upon

06:03

itself exponentially is this

06:05

polarization the divide in our country

06:08

ideologically

06:10

racially gender i mean you just you name

06:13

it

06:13

and there's people it feels like people

06:16

in our world are spinning apart

06:18

further and further almost like a

06:20

physics experiment

06:22

and this covid pandemic

06:25

seems to have accentuated that and

06:28

really even you know in a moment where

06:29

maybe we could even

06:31

see our our culture our society come

06:33

together a little bit more

06:35

we found it i found it just spinning

06:37

even more out of control and being even

06:38

more polarized being even more separated

06:41

isolated bitter you name it

06:45

as someone who's your job is to notice

06:48

human behavior and to assess human

06:51

behavior and patterns in human behavior

06:53

now that's on an individual basis more

06:56

group basis but

06:57

as a collective i'm sure you know just

06:59

because of who you are i know that you

07:01

you observe cultural movements and

07:04

societal norms

07:05

and how they're stretching and all that

07:07

stuff so what would you say from your

07:08

professional perspective what have what

07:10

have been some observations

07:12

about what this pandemic is doing to our

07:16

culture and society as a whole

07:19

i've told people from the beginning of

07:21

this and i would definitely still

07:23

say this is congruent with where i'm at

07:26

that

07:27

i still personally am learning a

07:29

tremendous amount

07:31

um so i can i can give you some

07:34

observations but

07:35

really want to make it clear that these

07:37

aren't any forgot

07:38

gone conclusions and you know holding

07:41

loosely to

07:42

hypotheses that i have about about this

07:46

but as i was really reflecting on on

07:48

this question

07:49

the one thing that has become apparent

07:52

to me from the beginning

07:54

is that this pandemic has either

07:58

been an invitation for people to be on

08:00

an accelerated

08:02

course of transformation and it's been

08:05

absolutely beautiful to watch i've seen

08:08

clients and families and couples get

08:11

things figured out

08:12

and reconciled in in very

08:15

salient and quite quick

08:19

and profound ways almost like it's had

08:22

people

08:23

have to evaluate quickly what's what's

08:26

most important

08:27

and how are we going to make this work

08:29

so that's a trend

08:30

that i've seen from from the beginning

08:33

on the opposite end of the continuum

08:36

i've also seen that this pandemic

08:40

has given people

08:44

the opportunity to choose a very very

08:47

different path

08:48

dehumanizing dehumanizing in the way

08:51

they're treating their bodies

08:53

during this time dehumanizing in the way

08:56

they are

08:57

treating family members their spouses

09:00

and the way that they are interacting

09:02

and treating

09:03

their friends extended family members

09:07

community members

09:08

and and even as they're starting to

09:11

develop not starting to but really

09:13

reinforce narratives that they've held

09:15

for a long time

09:17

about the other whether it's the other

09:19

political party

09:21

race so what's been really interesting

09:23

to me

09:24

is because normally i always like to see

09:27

see a middle ground

09:28

but i have definitely seen it people are

09:31

falling into two different

09:33

areas and that's either an accelerated

09:37

growth course of transformation or

09:40

a very rapid decline towards more

09:44

dehumanization

09:48

now when you as you observe this

09:50

dehumanization that's

09:52

i wasn't expecting that super

09:54

interesting but it makes a lot of sense

09:55

as you talk your way through it

09:57

why do you think this pandemic in

09:58

particular is kind of the root for that

10:01

dehumanization what

10:03

have you have you connected those dots

10:04

or is that still something you're

10:05

there's some dots that are there's some

10:07

dots that are being connected and i also

10:09

really want to give credit where credit

10:11

is due i have

10:13

some wonderful mentors and guides of my

10:16

own

10:17

that i i reflect on these things as well

10:20

and so much of this what i'm going to

10:22

say comes out of some dialogue there

10:24

but this is definitely something i've

10:25

been reflecting a lot and in particular

10:28

as it relates to those of us who live

10:32

in the united states and one of the

10:35

conclusions that i've come to

10:37

is that i think part of the reason in

10:39

particular for some of the just

10:41

bad behavior and dehumanizing

10:44

behavior that that we're seeing that i'm

10:46

seeing

10:48

is that as americans we have an

10:50

extremely

10:52

dysfunctional belief about rights and

10:54

and freedom

10:56

that there are what i'm seeing is that

10:58

we're the people who are struggling the

10:59

most

11:00

cope are people who believe that we

11:02

should have unlimited rights

11:05

unlimited freedoms and of course you

11:07

know as as people who are christian in

11:09

orientation we know by design

11:12

that freedom has limits because

11:13

unlimited freedom unlimited rights

11:16

do not lead to human flourishing but

11:19

that

11:19

that so far is one of the dots that i'm

11:22

connecting in particular in the united

11:23

states

11:24

that this has very much challenged the

11:27

paradigm

11:28

many americans have about an entitlement

11:31

to unlimited freedom

11:33

unlimited rights wow

11:36

so it's interesting that when you

11:40

you framed it as the people that are

11:42

having the hardest time

11:43

coping are the people who view it that

11:46

way so it's

11:47

uh it's not just that they have an

11:48

opinion that we disagree with it's

11:50

actually having psychological effects

11:51

that are making their lives

11:53

worse from their perspective is that

11:55

right

11:56

yes and i a colleague of mine asked me

11:59

the other day

12:01

um and we'll probably get to this a

12:02

little bit later but

12:04

the the types of issues that i'm

12:08

seeing coming my way and dealing with

12:10

and i'm sure that i'm

12:11

that other therapist would would share

12:13

the same the same thing

12:15

they're quite different and so for

12:17

people who have

12:19

a really rigid paradigm about

12:22

anything could be a rigid paradigm about

12:25

rights

12:26

about freedom rigid paradigms about

12:29

how things ought to be how god should

12:31

work

12:32

what should go my way their paradigms

12:35

are way too constricted

12:37

to be able to contain reality and

12:40

whenever our paradigms are too small and

12:43

constricted to

12:44

to be able to deal with and whole

12:46

reality

12:48

we will not function well can you relate

12:51

that jenny

12:52

to instantly i go to

12:55

religion in christianity and faith

12:57

journeys and that just sounds

12:58

so familiar and again i'm so glad to

13:02

have your perspective the perspective of

13:03

someone who studied digs down

13:05

deep into this human psyche and brain

13:07

and emotions and all that stuff

13:09

this this idea of someone being

13:13

having such a rigid world view in

13:15

theology and concept of

13:17

who and what god is that sounds like

13:20

you're saying that's

13:20

just fodder for a forest fire in your

13:23

faith journey

13:24

well you're in your faith journey and in

13:26

your psychological journey too

13:27

okay can you explain that yeah

13:31

and you know i'm going to say some

13:32

things that would are going to be

13:34

they might be shocking to some people

13:36

and and i don't mean any

13:38

any disrespect to fellow brothers and

13:40

sisters in christ

13:41

i i also believe that there are some

13:44

things that we just can't stay silent on

13:46

so i'm going to give

13:47

some specific examples that certainly

13:48

won't reach any type of confidentiality

13:51

because i'm hearing them so often

13:53

but for instance one very rigid paradigm

13:56

i'm hearing

13:57

in my clients who embrace a a more

14:00

conservative christian

14:02

paradigm and viewpoint is well

14:05

why do we need to follow the cdc's

14:08

recommendation

14:09

if every single one of our days are

14:12

numbered

14:13

it doesn't matter if we're gonna die

14:15

we're gonna die

14:17

if my fellow my neighbor down the street

14:20

if his days are numbered what does it

14:23

matter

14:24

well that that would be that would be an

14:26

example of that

14:28

um another one another one that i'm

14:31

hearing

14:32

would be about the interpretation that

14:35

god is punishing god is punishing

14:39

us for a specific sin or citizens and

14:42

don't get me wrong i think there's

14:43

there's some amazing transformation that

14:46

we all need in this but that's so

14:48

very different than keeping it in this

14:50

tight paradigm

14:52

that correlates god is doing a because

14:55

of

14:56

b though i mean those would be those

14:59

would be the two big ones and i'm sure i

15:00

could come up with many more

15:02

but the the i think the big thing

15:04

overall is that somehow

15:06

this is so horrible we don't deserve

15:09

this

15:09

this is hindering my freedom messing up

15:11

with my life

15:12

and somehow we gotta hustle and scramble

15:15

our way out of this

15:17

so that's another really narrow paradigm

15:19

that just does not leave

15:20

room for things that go awry

15:23

yeah yeah my 11 year old boy yesterday

15:27

just made the statement that maybe maybe

15:29

coven 19 is happening because

15:30

of racism and god's punishing us

15:33

right well i i like what you're thinking

15:36

because if god's going to punish us for

15:37

anything it'd be something like racism

15:39

but let's talk about how god works so

15:40

maybe that's that's kind of an 11 year

15:42

old

15:43

theological worldview

15:46

now i said the offensive thing so you

15:48

can i'll take the feed off of you jenny

15:51

so i'm curious before we leave this

15:53

topic what sorts of

15:55

uh specific psychological harms do you

15:57

see

15:58

associated with that kind of rigid

16:00

belief structure whether it's religious

16:02

or not

16:05

oh that's such a good question what i

16:08

think where the psychological harm is

16:11

it's it's often i mean and don't get me

16:12

wrong the person who holds the paradigm

16:15

most the time him or herself that they

16:18

are suffering internally

16:20

because it's hard not to be able to deal

16:22

with reality

16:23

unless you live in a tight paradigm but

16:26

what i'm seeing more and more is that

16:28

they're becoming

16:29

extremely lonely people because nobody

16:32

wants to be around them

16:33

people are losing trust people are

16:35

losing respect

16:37

they're in conflict with their kids

16:40

with their spouses with family members

16:42

with members in the community

16:44

and so there's now going to be this this

16:47

loneliness

16:48

as well but but in particular

16:51

when it comes to the paradigm of we

16:53

should never suffer

16:55

or god should be protecting us from

16:57

these types of things

16:58

what i'm really seeing is people one

17:00

client said it best

17:01

she said my ability to function

17:05

has come to a grinding halt

17:08

my ability to function has come to a

17:11

grinding

17:12

halt when our paradigms are that narrow

17:15

we will not be able to flex and adapt

17:20

and adjust to loss wow

17:23

yep i wonder how many people are

17:26

identifying with that statement that

17:27

your

17:28

one of your clients just said right now

17:31

so

17:32

jenny when we think about anxiety

17:34

anxiety which leads to

17:36

is there on this on the continuum of you

17:40

know as you're you're assessing

17:41

um and diagnosing anxiety and then kyle

17:44

mentioned panic

17:45

in the you know in the beginning of our

17:46

time together how how closely are those

17:49

related is there

17:50

stops along the way that or does panic

17:52

feed into

17:53

anxiety the other way around how do

17:55

those two things have a relationship

17:56

with one another

17:57

psychologically um well they're mainly i

17:59

mean both of those concepts there's

18:02

the the panic is more physiological

18:05

anxiety is a combination of both but

18:08

there there actually is a distinction

18:10

between anxiety and between panic

18:12

anxiety runs along a long continuum

18:15

panic does not run along a continuum at

18:17

all panic is panic

18:18

it is felt intensely it distorts reality

18:21

it sets people up to make bad decisions

18:25

because it's based on distortions where

18:28

anxiety on the continuum

18:30

there's a level of anxiety that we all

18:32

need to function

18:33

there are higher levels of anxiety that

18:35

will keep us

18:36

physically depleted mentally depleted

18:39

and a lot of physical symptoms

18:40

as well but that's not the same thing as

18:43

as panic

18:45

and how have you seen that in your

18:47

practice in the last three four months

18:49

during the

18:49

pandemic have you seen that kind of

18:52

grow i would assume right yeah well it's

18:55

interesting

18:56

randy because actually i i've been

18:58

reflecting on this a lot what's

18:59

when in some ways in interesting and

19:02

sort of

19:02

humorous is that my clients who

19:07

already came into this pandemic with

19:09

diagnoses like

19:11

ocd generalized anxiety panic disorder

19:14

they have fared very well

19:18

and part of it is because they feel so

19:21

normal

19:22

everybody's anxious um for my clients

19:25

who have ocd they are so thrilled that

19:27

people are washing their hands

19:29

um i mean truly i mean it's been i

19:32

i really would have expected something

19:34

very different

19:35

so but what i am seeing is actually a

19:38

different

19:39

kind of anxiety and we wouldn't

19:42

necessarily term it anxiety and if you

19:44

if i if you don't mind me just taking

19:45

it's not going to be a sermon i promise

19:47

you that but

19:48

there's there's three things there's

19:51

really three

19:52

things that have anxiety as

19:56

features but they're quite distinct and

19:58

they're quite unique

20:00

to the pandemic and and situations like

20:03

this

20:04

one is something that dr pauline boss

20:07

boss

20:08

has identified as ambiguous loss

20:12

and that is the trauma of loss without

20:15

resolution

20:16

and that's exactly what every single one

20:18

of us is is facing right now

20:21

there's loss but there is no resolution

20:24

we we don't have a sense yet of where

20:27

all this is going and what it's going to

20:29

look like

20:30

and um and even by way of like some

20:32

small simple examples

20:34

you know the other day i drove past

20:36

miller park

20:37

and there was just this pain in my gut

20:39

of like man do i ever miss hanging out

20:41

with my husband at brewer games

20:43

and do i ever feel bad for my kids

20:46

that they don't get to experience that i

20:48

mean and i know this is like first world

20:50

problems

20:50

but the reality is there are so many

20:53

losses within the big loss

20:55

but there is not yet any resolution and

20:58

that

20:59

for people what the research is finding

21:02

is that ambiguous

21:03

loss without the definition is the the

21:06

thing that's impacting people the most

21:08

so it feels like anxiety

21:10

but it's a little bit different the

21:13

second thing

21:14

that has come out in the research so far

21:17

about the pandemic

21:18

is a term that we call immobilization

21:21

and that's the sense that we're really

21:24

limited

21:25

and constricted right now which which we

21:27

are not completely

21:28

but much more than what we're used to

21:30

we're without power

21:32

to change many things and people have

21:35

the feeling of

21:36

of being trapped and typically speaking

21:39

and i think the jury's still out whether

21:41

or not this would fall right now into a

21:43

category of trauma or pre-trauma but

21:46

it doesn't matter people are

21:48

experiencing the anxiety around

21:51

immobilization

21:52

how do i live and move and find meaning

21:55

and purpose and outlets

21:57

in a very constricted limited

22:00

environment and then certainly people

22:02

who've been impacted financially as well

22:04

where there isn't an end in sight that

22:06

would be another way

22:08

that plays out and then i'd say the

22:10

final

22:11

way as well how anxiety looks different

22:14

is just the

22:14

constant adaptation to changing

22:18

conditions you know you guys have

22:19

probably heard

22:20

i think people are so sick of the word

22:22

unprecedented

22:23

um but i think also we've heard the word

22:26

pivoting a lot

22:27

but we're pivoting because we have to

22:30

things are

22:31

changing with this virus almost every 24

22:34

hours now

22:35

what we thought we knew about this virus

22:38

at the beginning

22:40

are different and i think even six

22:42

months down the road but things are

22:44

constantly adapting and changing and it

22:47

human beings aren't

22:48

wired to have to flex and adapt and

22:51

pivot

22:52

that rapidly for this long of a time

22:54

we'll all

22:55

do it and we'll all make it through but

22:57

it always comes at a cost

22:59

and i'm feeling that too wow so it's

23:01

just a different type of anxiety

23:03

how are you feeling that jenny well i

23:05

mean number one

23:06

when this thing started first of all

23:09

having to make decisions about how long

23:11

do you stay in person

23:12

and then adapting to tele-behavioral

23:15

health

23:16

which wasn't in and of itself difficult

23:19

but then what was difficult is

23:21

navigating all the different platforms

23:23

figuring out what's hipaa compliant

23:25

dealing with tech

23:26

issues every client and then sitting in

23:29

front of a screen where i also had to

23:30

see myself

23:32

and the client you know for seven eight

23:35

hours a day

23:35

five days a week and then having to

23:37

pivot back

23:39

when it was time to start seeing

23:41

critical patients and then pivoting

23:42

again

23:43

when therapists were required to have

23:45

informed consents and

23:46

you know liability issues and and all

23:48

those kinds of things

23:50

and now most likely gonna have to pivot

23:52

again

23:53

as the numbers grow as we head back into

23:55

flu season i mean that's just a little

23:57

snippet

23:58

and that's just on the professional end

23:59

on the personal end with family with

24:01

kids

24:02

all that kind of thing you know it's

24:04

that's there too

24:05

i'm sure you guys have all experienced

24:07

that as well

24:09

yeah yeah some of the most intense for

24:12

me

24:12

is the difference in opinion about the

24:15

pandemic

24:16

about the importance of it about the

24:18

seriousness of it about the reality

24:20

about masks about you know

24:22

all that stuff that's it's almost

24:26

it's like experiencing whiplash on a

24:28

daily basis

24:29

trying to hold and process so many

24:31

people's opinions

24:32

and you know both as a pastor than as a

24:35

family member

24:36

and i mean uncles aunts sisters

24:39

brothers-in-law you know all that stuff

24:41

it's a lot of holding oh man yeah

24:44

yeah so jenny you mentioned trauma a few

24:47

minutes ago

24:48

do you think that covid itself will

24:52

cause an uptick in cases of ptsd or is

24:55

that a different kind of trauma

24:58

that's a good question it's going to be

25:01

dependent on the individual

25:04

as a lot of ptsd is and by the way just

25:06

just to make it really clear

25:08

when when a person comes out of

25:10

something like this with post-traumatic

25:12

stress

25:14

symptoms or disorder that doesn't mean

25:16

that they're weaker

25:17

in character or even you know more

25:19

fragile

25:20

it all depends it all depends on what

25:23

their circumstances were

25:24

going into that and this in the specific

25:27

impact

25:28

as a result of it so i think people are

25:30

all going to be

25:31

impacted but not everyone is going to

25:34

come come out of this

25:35

with like post-traumatic stress symptoms

25:38

or a disorder

25:40

people have a lot of reflecting to do

25:43

people will

25:44

hopefully be reordering their lives i

25:45

think other people are gonna

25:47

you know become very very rigid

25:50

and um tightly controlled everyone will

25:54

be impacted but not everyone will be

25:55

traumatized

25:57

yep i wonder you know because ptsd is a

26:01

that's that's a real in a strong thing

26:04

but i'm remembering from my journey

26:06

you guys all know but for listeners i

26:09

don't know

26:09

five six years ago i had a what's called

26:11

a traumatic brain injury

26:12

and was on vacation with my wife in

26:15

california and

26:16

all of a sudden felt like my head was

26:18

gonna explode and long story short i had

26:20

a subdural hematoma with a midline shift

26:22

which just meant my brain was bleeding

26:24

and it shoved my brain over there was

26:25

enough blood that it moved my brain so

26:27

eventually after two weeks i had

26:29

a couple holes drilled in my head had

26:30

brain surgery was in california three

26:32

weeks longer than i thought i would

26:34

and then came home and had a month

26:35

recovery and everybody would ask me

26:38

after that first six months to a year

26:40

how are you doing how's your health and

26:42

it was always fine it got

26:44

it got better after surgery i just felt

26:46

like a real person again

26:47

it was great but what wasn't fine was

26:51

processing the trauma i didn't know it

26:53

at the time until i talked to you and to

26:54

other friends who

26:56

who are professionals and i remember you

26:57

saying jenny but

26:59

i would i came to you and i was like

27:00

this is what i'm doing every night after

27:02

my family goes to bed

27:03

i will take a journey back to southern

27:05

california and i'll go

27:07

to see the places that we went to and

27:09

i'll go and i'll look at my texts

27:12

throughout that whole time i'll go on

27:13

sarah's phone and i'll look at my wife's

27:14

text during that time i'll look at our

27:16

facebook

27:17

feeds and watch how everybody was

27:19

frantic and praying and

27:20

i just had to relive it over and over

27:22

and over again for six to 12 months

27:24

really

27:25

and i remember you saying you're having

27:27

to fit that into your story now and me

27:29

and sarah together had to do that

27:31

we would relive it over and over again i

27:33

wonder

27:35

two things one could you talk about that

27:36

reality a little bit because i

27:38

i'm guessing that there's a lot of

27:40

people who are listening who maybe are

27:41

health care workers

27:42

and are going to have to do that thing

27:45

or

27:45

who had coveted 19 and their world was

27:48

was disrupted for months on end and

27:51

they're still feeling the effects of it

27:52

in that processing and bringing that

27:55

trauma

27:56

into their person can you just talk us

27:58

to us about that process jenny

28:00

yes the thing the thing about trauma

28:03

is that it and i i heard a lecture i

28:06

cannot remember his name it was a

28:07

marquette

28:08

oh boy maybe nine years ago and

28:12

what he said is that these trauma it

28:14

dislocates people

28:16

at almost level every level of their

28:18

personhood

28:20

how they view self how they view the

28:21

other how they view the safety of the

28:23

world how they view their competency

28:25

you name it i could go on and on so yeah

28:28

the process is people have to be able

28:30

they have to be able to tell the story

28:33

and go back and visit different pieces

28:35

of it make sense of it but

28:36

but then ultimately integrate it into

28:38

their story that this

28:40

actually happened to me i think the

28:42

thing that really messes with

28:44

people is that wow

28:48

this happened to me this is

28:51

happening to me this is happening

28:54

to us um this is not somewhere off in

28:58

another continent

28:59

that's what people i think i think we've

29:02

definitely adjusted for the most part

29:04

that this is happening to us

29:06

we'll have some more adjustment to make

29:08

but yeah being able to wrap our heads

29:10

around

29:11

this happened here's how it impacted me

29:14

and here's how we made it through what

29:17

was provided to us

29:19

those are all necessary things to get

29:22

the trauma

29:23

resolved in addition that immobilization

29:25

that term i mentioned earlier

29:27

is part and parcel of trauma or

29:30

pre-traumatic things

29:31

and so one of the things we also know is

29:33

that wherever we can empower people

29:35

to become mobile again in their emotions

29:39

moving their bodies being able to

29:41

connect in relationships even in this

29:43

obviously in a socially distanced way

29:46

all those things to empower people

29:48

is is equally important as well

29:52

well this episode i think is gonna drive

29:55

your your waiting list might grow jenny

29:58

and a lot of people are gonna

29:59

realize i need some i need some

30:01

counseling well i want to tell you we

30:03

are

30:03

really grateful i'm we're really blessed

30:05

there are so many

30:06

good good therapists yeah lots of good

30:10

people

30:11

yeah so

30:14

jenny i'm curious what you think about

30:16

this um

30:18

it seems like and maybe this is a

30:20

difference in the way that the normal

30:22

populace uses the word anxiety versus

30:24

the way that therapists like yourself

30:25

use the

30:26

word anxiety but i i got into kind of a

30:29

little

30:30

mini argument slash conversation with

30:32

somebody on social media at the

30:33

beginning of all of this and

30:35

i was suggesting that that there's a

30:38

sense of appropriate anxiety

30:40

um i i see a lot on social media the

30:43

sort of thing you were describing a

30:44

little while ago where

30:46

there are people who just aren't anxious

30:48

enough about this

30:49

or at least that's the way that i would

30:50

describe it they don't take it seriously

30:53

enough they don't think it's much of a

30:54

threat

30:55

or they write it off because of some

30:57

kind of belief structure that explains

30:58

it away for them

31:00

so is there a sense of healthy anxiety

31:04

is that a thing

31:05

or would would a therapist describe that

31:07

differently

31:08

oh without a doubt i i don't know that i

31:11

would use

31:12

i don't know that i would use the word

31:14

anxiety i think i would use

31:15

fear and what we know is that we do need

31:19

to have

31:20

we need to have what i would call

31:22

accurate fear

31:24

fear that is actually congruent with the

31:26

reality of a situation

31:28

or we will get ourselves into danger

31:32

and other people into danger so there is

31:34

a healthy sense of fear

31:37

yeah and and anxiety and i i'd say more

31:40

if we want to use that i i use a phrase

31:43

a lot kind of a sober

31:45

awareness that this is a real deal

31:49

a sober awareness that allows me to

31:52

allows us to be able to not just protect

31:56

self but really also protect the other

32:00

we need that now i think what's getting

32:03

really tricky for people

32:05

one of the reasons i'm finding people

32:07

are not paying attention to the science

32:10

okay i mean there's just some really

32:12

good science out

32:13

about covid the good science that i've

32:16

read

32:17

is not fear-based it is a factual but

32:20

sober awareness here's what we know

32:22

right now

32:24

about this virus and if we do these

32:26

things

32:28

we can mitigate the effects of this

32:30

virus

32:31

what i'm finding is becoming very

32:34

confusing for people

32:36

is that and i i want to be careful here

32:38

i will not villainize the media and i am

32:40

not

32:40

villainizing any one politician but

32:43

because

32:44

kovid is politicized

32:47

the media and politics use fear

32:50

run amok to manipulate people

32:55

and so people are having a very

32:57

difficult time often discerning

33:00

what is sober awareness based on

33:03

good science and what's real and true

33:06

and what is fear run amok used to

33:09

manipulate

33:10

and for someone else's game

33:14

and so i'm finding that some people have

33:16

completely tuned out science

33:19

because they they believe this is all a

33:21

political

33:23

maneuver yep so jenny

33:26

going off of that idea of sober

33:28

awareness and then

33:30

on the other side fear run amok i've

33:32

heard it said

33:33

and i'm just interested in to hear your

33:34

perspective i've heard that

33:36

negativity fear anger all that stuff

33:40

sticks to our to our consciousness to

33:42

our brains like

33:43

like velcro right in that good beautiful

33:47

hopeful wonderful things slide off like

33:50

teflon that like

33:51

you actually have to work to actually

33:53

amplify and keep those good

33:54

thoughts and things i was just talking

33:56

to my son this today we were

33:59

in the park and he talks he mentioned

34:01

that he remembers so many of his bad

34:03

dreams

34:04

and very few of his good dreams and i

34:06

was one

34:07

i was processing him with him that that

34:09

yep the bad stuff actually sticks a

34:11

little bit more is that true

34:13

physiologically or talk me through that

34:16

yeah it does seem that

34:18

the brain appears to

34:21

recall the bad and what didn't go well

34:26

more than the good now i think there's

34:28

some people by personality and wiring

34:30

that they are just gifted

34:32

in really being able to connect with the

34:34

good so we

34:36

being intentional about connecting with

34:37

still what's good

34:39

and untouched by bad is

34:42

is very very important i'm also though

34:45

honestly i'm

34:46

i myself in my own journey in this last

34:49

year have really had to renegotiate

34:52

my relationship with anger and i have so

34:55

appreciated

34:56

richard rohr's writing on anger

35:00

that that anger is actually if if we

35:03

bring it

35:03

into the presence of the gaze of christ

35:07

that it is actually a pathway

35:11

to something that is actually very pure

35:15

and

35:15

good anger is one of the most purifying

35:18

emotions

35:19

there are sometimes i think when we get

35:21

concerned about anger and i do as well

35:23

what we're really saying is we're more

35:25

concerned about contempt

35:28

and that's very different than anger um

35:30

anger tends to be quite pure

35:32

and purifying contempt is something very

35:35

very different

35:36

that tends to look down on other people

35:39

minimizes other people

35:40

demeans other people but anger actually

35:43

is a necessary

35:44

emotion for coping and

35:48

also for creating change

35:51

to go back to your original question the

35:52

reality is yes we do

35:54

have to be a little more intentional

35:56

about immersing ourself

35:58

in the good not just thinking about it

36:01

but tasting it touching it seeing it

36:04

being

36:04

in it you said earlier connecting with

36:07

the good

36:08

yeah i like that yeah yeah this seems

36:11

super relevant

36:12

to me because simultaneously with the

36:13

whole covid thing and all of the

36:15

psychological stuff that's causing

36:17

in the united states and kind of

36:18

globally we're going through

36:20

this intense anger rage

36:24

over white supremacy and racism and the

36:26

fact that

36:28

um police officers can't seem to stop

36:31

killing black people

36:32

um so i think it's highly relevant to

36:34

the situation we're in because

36:36

we're having all these issues compounded

36:37

simultaneously and all these different

36:39

emotions flowing through us about

36:40

different things

36:41

there's actually there's a whole

36:42

literature of philosophy of race

36:46

and various critical race theorists who

36:48

talk a great deal about rage

36:51

and anger as a necessary tool for

36:54

political change

36:57

i've as you as you talk kyle i've got um

37:00

well

37:01

i'd be interested in your take on this

37:02

jenny i um

37:05

watching let's just take the george

37:07

floyd video for example

37:09

right you could put a million names in

37:11

there but let's just take the george

37:12

floyd video

37:14

people's response to that video has been

37:17

fascinating to me

37:18

um and fascinating i mean i don't mean

37:21

here's what i mean it seems like adults

37:24

are more

37:25

the way they see that is through the

37:27

filter of whatever their political

37:28

ideology is whatever their upbringing

37:30

was whatever you know feeling like

37:31

there's so much

37:32

of a filter when they're watching it

37:34

that i almost don't trust

37:36

it what i trusted was watching my 13

37:39

year old girl

37:40

be disrupted for two days after she we

37:42

allowed her to watch that video

37:44

and she couldn't stop she was crying on

37:46

and off for about a day and a half after

37:47

she watched the video in

37:49

the the evil the pure evil in it

37:52

was so jarring to her she didn't have

37:54

any of these filters she didn't have any

37:56

ideology stuffed

37:57

upon her she just watched a video where

37:59

she saw somebody being murdered

38:01

and it was just a really easy call for

38:03

her can you speak to this

38:05

these filters that that distort reality

38:08

as we're seeing real things happen in

38:10

real time yeah

38:12

it goes right back to what i said about

38:14

about the meaning and purpose

38:16

of narrow paradigms if

38:19

if i if i can look at that video

38:22

and interpret it through a lens

38:26

of my political beliefs then

38:30

i don't have to grapple with the problem

38:33

of evil

38:36

don't have to get near to the trauma i

38:39

can protect myself

38:40

from being disrupted

38:45

so it's there's a self-protection facet

38:48

to it

38:49

very much and i'll tell you i will never

38:51

enable

38:52

dehumanizing behavior but i have come to

38:56

the conclusion

38:57

that most dehumanizing behavior

39:01

started very how can i put this it

39:04

started

39:05

with a need to self-protect

39:09

and it doesn't make it any better does

39:12

i'm not saying it's good

39:14

but with compassion i will say that that

39:17

there's a path

39:18

to dehumanizing behavior that often

39:21

starts with somebody

39:23

who internally is absolutely unable

39:26

to have a roomy enough interior world

39:29

to handle the whole of reality and so we

39:32

amputate it

39:34

yep wow man so jenny

39:38

2020 i mean it's gonna go down in the

39:41

history books

39:43

pretend that me kyle elliott and all our

39:46

listeners are sitting on your couch your

39:47

proverbial couch

39:49

and you're gonna tell us how to get

39:51

through a year like 2020 which

39:53

obviously is going to have more chaos to

39:54

it even if we don't have anything new

39:56

introduced which i'm

39:57

be shocked if that didn't happen but can

39:59

you give us a little

40:00

little therapy session on how to how to

40:03

walk through

40:04

a year a time a season of life like this

40:06

that seems so chaotic and out of control

40:09

how do we hold all that how do we how do

40:11

we deal with it

40:12

yeah well i um you know before

40:15

i was reminded of this last week too

40:17

that before

40:18

psychology and in particular the

40:20

practice of counseling was ever a

40:22

concept ever a thing

40:25

there was something else that human

40:26

beings have always had available to them

40:29

and i'm going to use the language of

40:31

spiritual direction and this is where

40:32

i've been personally immersing myself

40:34

in just in my own study

40:38

reflection so bottom line is there's

40:42

only one way we're going to get through

40:43

it

40:44

it really at the core and that is going

40:46

to be

40:47

we're either going to embrace a theology

40:49

of sufficiency

40:51

or we're going to live in a mindset of

40:53

scarcity

40:55

unpack that for us yeah theology of

40:57

sufficiency versus a mindset of scarcity

41:00

i when all this began i felt led to be

41:04

stay almost this entire time in the

41:05

sermon on the mount

41:07

and doing study on it and in particular

41:10

in

41:10

matthew 6 25-34 about why do you worry

41:14

about your life look at the birds of the

41:15

air look at the lilies of the field

41:17

i i really came i came into an

41:19

understanding

41:21

through some helpful commentators where

41:24

the the commentator was basically saying

41:26

jesus was not

41:27

saying like live in denial live with

41:29

your head in the clouds

41:31

jesus was actually in a culture

41:35

that was poor the rich

41:38

ruled there and there wasn't enough

41:42

and and honestly for many of the same

41:44

reasons

41:45

we in our culture are experiencing

41:48

scarcity as well or certain populations

41:51

are experiencing scarcity so when jesus

41:54

was saying look at the birds of the air

41:56

and look at the lilies of the field he's

41:57

really saying

41:59

do not focus your attention

42:02

on the scarcity that's caused by greed

42:07

and anger and dehumanizing behavior

42:10

focus on the provision of the father the

42:12

sufficiency that's there

42:14

in all conditions in all circumstances

42:17

that's where you're going to have your

42:18

that's where you're going to have your

42:20

peace

42:21

okay and then um so i think that

42:25

that is one of the biggest ones the

42:27

other thing as i was watching

42:29

bits and pieces of george floyd's

42:31

funeral

42:33

is the practice and concept of black joy

42:36

i don't know if you saw that but what i

42:39

would say

42:40

if you guys are sitting on my couch the

42:42

way to get through it

42:44

is the jesus way and i would call that

42:46

subversive

42:48

coping where we practice joy

42:52

in the midst of evil and

42:55

we look at and trust sufficiency

42:58

and we're very careful about staying too

43:01

attuned

43:02

to the crazy messages about scarcity and

43:05

about toilet paper about cleaning

43:07

supplies

43:07

i could go on and on and on okay but we

43:10

live in what what we're designed to live

43:12

in

43:13

and that is in joy and in the trusting

43:16

and

43:16

insufficiency of of god

43:20

and that may sound very overly

43:22

simplistic but i would say that is

43:24

really at the core

43:26

of easing that anxiety

43:29

the panic that we know this does not

43:32

have the final say and we really

43:34

shouldn't be surprised this is the

43:36

groaning of creation

43:38

and i'm not minimizing what is going on

43:40

and i'm not saying we should put our

43:42

head in the sand

43:43

however if we don't immerse ourself in

43:46

what is still good

43:48

and still available as good always has

43:51

been always will be

43:52

we will not come through this well

43:55

yep that's so good jenny subversive

43:59

coping that's my new term

44:00

i love it sounds like a book title

44:02

coping it's sure how about that

44:04

if you write a book with that title i'm

44:06

thinking you

44:10

subversive coping it's good that's the

44:12

only this really that's as far as i

44:14

could ever get by the way

44:15

with the book is the title

44:19

um so i'm curious if

44:22

because you're a pastor or used to be a

44:24

pastor in addition to being

44:26

a therapist and you were just sort of

44:28

leaning into a little bit of that just

44:29

now

44:30

um so do you think as a christian and as

44:33

a former pastor

44:35

is there any special advice for how

44:38

christians specifically

44:40

might be able to do good in the world

44:43

uh during all of this and also stay

44:46

psychologically healthy while doing it

44:47

some of what you just said kind of uh

44:50

goes into that a little bit

44:51

um but a lot of what you said is kind of

44:54

universal to everybody so

44:55

let me reframe the question here is does

44:58

christianity

44:59

in your view offer anything specific and

45:02

unique or different

45:04

for the believer that you couldn't get

45:07

as a secular person

45:09

yes and i i'd say two things

45:12

one is we we can walk with

45:16

responsibility

45:17

and sober awareness while still

45:21

being free you know because

45:24

we know because of christ and

45:27

his his life his death his resurrection

45:30

and his ascension

45:32

all four of those are important we know

45:34

that

45:35

the reign of christ the kingdom of god

45:37

is is here

45:39

not in all of its fullness and so we

45:41

take seriously then what

45:43

what paul says in in romans that nothing

45:45

can separate us from that reality

45:48

i mean go through that list nothing in

45:51

heaven on earth above or below

45:53

things present past future nothing in us

45:56

outside of us can separate us

45:58

from from that love and from that

46:00

reality that the reign of christ the

46:02

presence of christ the kingdom of christ

46:04

is here

46:04

so that's where we get grounded and

46:06

anchored but then the second thing is

46:09

i think so often i do i have to remind

46:11

myself of this daily

46:13

and be reminded of it is that

46:16

we are little christ's jesus was

46:20

the one true human and we are made

46:23

in the image of god to be the people

46:26

who carry not only the good news but are

46:29

reflective

46:30

that in fact new creation is here we're

46:33

the carriers of hope

46:35

um and so the the hope there is that we

46:38

we live

46:38

out our our our human or our christian

46:42

vocation

46:43

in the midst of impen a pandemic mm-hmm

46:47

yep i love that i uh the way i've been

46:50

the way i've framed that to brief city

46:54

to

46:55

our congregation your former

46:56

congregation jenny has been to say

46:59

this is we are in the birth panes of new

47:01

creation

47:02

that this reality is giving birth to

47:05

another more beautiful full one called

47:07

new creation

47:08

the kingdom of god in all its fullness

47:10

and goodness and

47:12

birthing is painful and it's traumatic

47:15

and it's incredibly difficult in gory

47:19

in in messy and it feels like that's

47:22

what we're in right now

47:24

and that's not to minimize anybody's

47:26

experience during

47:27

this this crazy chaotic time but birth

47:30

pains of new creation helps

47:31

me see it in a bigger way than just this

47:34

particular moment you know

47:38

jenny this is now getting personal

47:40

because i'll just tell you my my

47:41

experience

47:42

with with kovid you know i could tell

47:45

you

47:45

almost day by day that week when this

47:48

hit right

47:49

i was with a group of pastors on

47:50

wednesday and we were all kind of like

47:51

hey is this real why are you guys doing

47:53

anything

47:54

and yeah we're not going to have people

47:55

shake hands you know that was the extent

47:56

of it

47:57

and and i remember one of our elders was

47:59

like no hugging

48:01

get out of my face with that you know it

48:02

was at that point yet that was wednesday

48:04

thursday um the memphis grizzly player

48:09

test rody gobert tested positive for

48:10

kovid and the nba season was shut down

48:13

then the next day friday was you know

48:16

all of us were going crazy i mean it was

48:17

just on a day by day basis and

48:19

i was just as all of us were i was just

48:21

responding in moment by moment

48:23

you know how do we okay we're not going

48:25

to meet it's not only that we're not

48:26

going to shake hands and hug on sunday

48:28

we're not going to meet on sunday

48:29

we're going to do this online and now we

48:30

got to pivot what do we got to do you

48:31

know

48:32

elliot was part of so much of that and i

48:35

would i felt like i was rolling with the

48:36

punches pretty well i felt like i was

48:38

not stressed or anxious about it i felt

48:39

like i was doing

48:40

like just responding well in the moment

48:44

feeling good about it not feeling not

48:46

staying up at night

48:47

but then i've told you about this in the

48:49

past where i've had these what you call

48:50

psychosomatic pains where at different

48:53

points in the last

48:54

three to five years i'll get recurring

48:57

tightness in my chest that freaks me out

48:58

that i'm gonna die soon or

49:00

a pain in a cramp from my chest up to

49:03

the base of my neck

49:04

of to my jaw and that happens numerous

49:07

times a day

49:07

and i don't tell anyone about it because

49:09

i'm freaked out about it i don't know

49:10

what to do with it

49:11

and all of a sudden i'll tell someone

49:12

like you or my spiritual director

49:15

or whoever and it starts going away

49:18

slowly but i had to deal with it for

49:19

months because i didn't tell anybody

49:21

that started happening again to me it

49:23

was gone i went on sabbatical last

49:25

summer and went away

49:26

and all of a sudden late march early

49:29

april this

49:30

pain in my in my chest going up to my

49:33

neck started happening again and i was

49:34

just

49:35

so dang pissed off i was just like i'm

49:38

feeling good i'm handling this well

49:40

why is this happening and i kept dealing

49:42

with it kept dealing with it until i

49:43

told my spiritual director and then

49:45

kind of went away what i want to know

49:48

about that process within me and people

49:50

like me

49:51

why did that happen why does it go away

49:53

when you start talking about it what's

49:54

the deal with that

49:56

it's normal normal and expected there's

49:59

a term that i think will be really

50:01

helpful to you

50:02

and to anybody else experiencing this

50:04

and and i really can empathize with you

50:06

i mean and by the way

50:07

anxiety and stress we experienced it in

50:10

the body

50:12

probably even more so than we experience

50:14

it in our emotions and our psyche it's

50:16

it's both places we're embodied

50:18

creatures but

50:19

anxiety is very physiological but

50:21

there's a term called called

50:23

allostatic load all

50:29

allostatic load which means that

50:32

there's a type of load that is so

50:36

high for so long that the body adapts

50:40

so we always would think oh the body is

50:41

very homeostatic that's the way god made

50:43

it'll get back to normal what a

50:45

wonderful thing but what we know

50:47

is that there are certain types of loads

50:49

over periods of time

50:51

that the body is actually not designed

50:53

to ever adapt to

50:55

because it would be maladaptive and so

50:58

at a certain time the body will start

50:59

sending off signals like tightness of

51:01

chest

51:02

headaches tensions decreased immune

51:06

system you know you name it there's all

51:07

kinds of things aches and pains

51:09

um and that just is our body's way of

51:11

saying i've done this long enough

51:14

and i need to get a little bit of of

51:16

reprieve and so

51:17

the way that i for myself and and for

51:20

the people i work with that i would say

51:23

is we kind of have to make friends with

51:25

that that we

51:26

we can say this is a real gift actually

51:28

that my body

51:30

is giving me these signals and nothing

51:32

to be alarmed here

51:33

there's this is what a body does we know

51:36

from research that if we can

51:37

we can talk to ourself that way that the

51:40

the stress symptoms decrease but

51:43

honestly

51:44

the shame about them is what really is

51:47

messing with people that somehow we

51:50

should be above

51:51

yeah the human experience or that randy

51:54

and i lead pastor of bruce city who's

51:55

leading people and can cope with things

51:57

doesn't get these we're all subject to

52:00

the human experience

52:01

which is why embracing that talking

52:03

about it and then doing things to really

52:06

take care of our body

52:07

get margin is is real important but i'm

52:10

right there with you

52:11

yep i feel like you need to bill me

52:13

after this episode

52:15

all free free for all of you i mean not

52:18

all in the podcast

52:21

yep so jenny that's that's me in my

52:23

process

52:24

um have you has your anxiety levels

52:28

personally

52:29

like what what has been your you know

52:31

now if you were sitting down with

52:33

someone

52:33

and saying this has been my experience

52:36

during this time

52:37

yeah how did you describe that oh boy

52:40

i'm with you like at the beginning

52:42

i i felt like i was handless like a

52:45

trooper

52:46

leading interns through it you know

52:48

family through it

52:49

all that but at the time it felt like

52:52

maybe one long snow day

52:55

but the more this went on and after the

52:58

first safer at home

53:00

expired and we went into another one and

53:03

now we're looking at these numbers that

53:05

we're looking at and

53:07

you know even what just happened in dane

53:09

county today and where we're probably

53:10

going to be headed and all those kinds

53:12

of things

53:13

over time what i started to experience

53:15

it's just it was

53:17

first of all just plain weariness like

53:20

the the feeling like i am having

53:22

trouble making decisions

53:25

even about my schedule like even getting

53:27

myself up

53:28

out of bed and it wasn't depression it

53:30

was just

53:31

weariness and then for me because one of

53:34

my core themes is the

53:35

fear and the shame of not being

53:38

competent

53:39

having to navigate liability issues and

53:43

i've never been a therapist i've made a

53:44

vow i will always operate

53:46

ethically but i don't ever want to be

53:48

driven by the fear of liability

53:51

and right now the fear of liability is a

53:53

big deal

53:55

for many many people and so that i would

53:57

say for me

53:58

has been the thing that i've needed i've

54:00

gotten re-established with my own

54:02

therapist

54:03

spiritual director who's really helped

54:05

me navigate that

54:07

but i think that the fear of doing

54:09

what's best

54:10

and what's good in particular for my

54:12

clients and for my family that's been a

54:14

big one

54:15

and then quite honestly just the

54:17

heartache of watching my kids

54:19

miss out on some really important rights

54:23

of passage

54:25

during this season and

54:28

that kind of that kind of thing but yeah

54:30

i've had a lot of disruptive sleep too

54:32

but then this might be tmi and you guys

54:34

can take it out but

54:35

i'm like man i'm like disrupted sleep

54:38

i'm

54:38

sweating i've got a rash then i found

54:41

out

54:42

geez i'm in menopause that's what that

54:44

is so

54:45

i was just chalking it all up to the

54:46

pandemic man

54:50

when i started growing a beard and a

54:52

mustache i'm like

54:53

okay i don't think this is stress

54:55

related i think this is something

54:57

different you're amazing so

55:01

i mean of all times to go through that

55:03

for crying out loud

55:05

seriously no one gets to complain about

55:08

20 20 as much as you do jenny

55:10

oh gosh for our dear listeners uh jenny

55:12

heckman is a woman who celebrated her

55:14

40th birthday birthday by

55:16

competing in an ironman competition and

55:19

did you do a marathon for your 50th

55:21

i did the ironman again for my 50th iron

55:23

man again that's right

55:24

i remember working with you when we were

55:26

you were trying to get

55:28

what an animal no more

55:31

no we told our daughter about that this

55:33

today actually because i was talking

55:34

about you

55:35

and she was like she looked like i had

55:38

just told her about some

55:39

horrible torture that that you just

55:42

subjected yourself to

55:43

well and that it is yeah and in theory

55:47

it's a fantastic event

55:49

yeah we'll do a second episode with

55:51

jenny heckman the

55:52

the ironman athlete that you are about

55:55

that experience

55:56

well jenny um you know kyle mentioned

55:59

that you were a pastor i

56:00

see you as still a pastor along with

56:03

your expertise in the

56:04

therapeutic world but i wonder if you

56:07

could you know fully step back into that

56:09

pastor role and just

56:10

speak a word of blessing over our

56:12

listeners who have

56:14

walked through a chaotic crazy year

56:17

and had to endure all sorts of things

56:20

would you just finish our time together

56:22

by just blessing speaking a word of

56:24

blessing over our listeners

56:26

i'd love to and you know you actually

56:28

you didn't know but you gave me a real

56:29

gift

56:30

of validation because when i

56:33

talked with my therapist spiritual

56:36

director

56:36

last week and told her how ungrounded i

56:40

felt

56:41

as a professional what she brought me

56:43

back to is jenny i think it would be

56:45

much more congruent

56:46

and this is a woman who is skilled she

56:49

is

56:50

she's older than i am more experienced

56:52

and one of the most

56:53

professional people i've ever met

56:56

and she said i think it would be so much

56:58

better for you

57:00

to envision the work that you do that

57:02

you are a pastor

57:05

disguised as a therapist that's right

57:07

cleverly disguised as a therapist like

57:09

to bring those two things together so i

57:10

just wanted to say thank you

57:12

thank you for that it's true yeah so i

57:15

think

57:15

the blessing would be that

57:18

by the empowering grace of the lord

57:21

jesus the heavenly father and the holy

57:23

spirit

57:25

may you make room expand your paradigm

57:29

to let all that is good and all that is

57:32

not good

57:33

coexist and trust

57:36

that what is truly joyous truly good

57:41

truly available and sufficient in new

57:44

creation and the reign of christ

57:46

will never be snuffed out by what's not

57:49

good

57:50

and may you embrace your

57:53

unbelievable vocation as a human being

57:57

modeled after the one true human jesus

58:00

to carry out his work his joy

58:04

his goodness his hope among all the

58:06

people and places

58:08

you find yourself in during the pandemic

58:10

and beyond

58:12

amen yes in the name of the father

58:15

and the son and the holy spirit amen

58:18

jenny thank you so much for joining us

58:20

thank you for having me it was a joy so

58:22

fun

58:24

i'm not crying you're crying

58:32

we hope it was as helpful for you as it

58:33

was for us to talk through these things

58:36

to focus in on the anxiety the mental

58:38

health realities and to

58:40

find a center and some health in the

58:42

middle of what's a really stressful year

58:45

if there was something in this episode

58:46

that hit home for you or if there's

58:48

someone on your mind who this would be

58:50

really helpful for

58:51

please share the episode put it on

58:53

social media text it to a friend

58:55

whatever it takes to make it so that

58:56

this important message uh can be shared

58:59

and

59:00

experienced by many don't forget to like

59:02

us on facebook subscribe wherever you

59:04

get your podcasts

59:06

so you'll be on top of all future

59:07

episodes we're looking forward to

59:09

spending more time with you

59:10

thanks for joining us

59:20

[Music]