Pope Francis' Legacy: A Global Church in Transition

Pope Francis, a man who inspired even many Protestants and non-Christians with his refreshingly prophetic voice, has died. The process to select his successor is ongoing as we release this. To help us understand what's happening, as well as its historical significance, we're talking with our friend and returning guest Shaun Blanchard, a Catholic theologian and theological historian. He helps us understand the significance of Francis's papacy and what might come next.

As the first Latin American pope, first Jesuit pope, and first non-European pope since the 8th century, Francis broke numerous precedents while embodying what Shaun calls "the first truly post-Vatican II pope." While his predecessors were formed before Vatican II, Francis's entire priestly ministry took place afterward, fundamentally shaping his perspective on church reform.

We explore how Francis's pastoral approach differed from Benedict XVI's more theological orientation and how his willingness to "make a mess" by reopening debates on issues like divorce, remarriage, and same-sex blessings represented a sea change in ecclesiastical culture. Francis challenged assumptions across the political and theological spectrum, championing environmental protection and migrant rights while maintaining core Catholic teachings.

The conversation turns to the ongoing conclave, where approximately 80% of voting cardinals were appointed by Francis himself. Shaun offers insights into potential candidates including Pietro Parolin, Pierbattista Pizzaballa, and several Asian cardinals, discussing how geopolitical realities might influence the selection process. We also discuss the film "Conclave" and its portrayal of Vatican politics, including how realistic or sensational it was (spoiler warning!).

Whether you're Catholic, Protestant, or simply curious about global religious leadership, this conversation illuminates a crucial moment of transition for the world's largest Christian denomination and invites reflection on what spiritual leadership means in our complex global environment.

=====

Want to support us?

The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.

If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.

Other important info:

• Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify
• Follow us on social media at @PPWBPodcast
• Watch & comment on YouTube
• Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com

Cheers!

Chapters

• 0:36 A Catholic Theologian Reflects on Francis
• 7:38 Francis's Unique Papal Legacy
• 15:06 The Pope's Role and Theological Shifts
• 21:16 Francis's Reforms and Vatican Politics
• 32:10 Conclave Politics and Potential Successors
• 48:30 The Movie "Conclave" and Vatican Reality
• 1:07:39 Faith, Politics, and the Holy Spirit's Guidance

Transcript

Randy: 0:06

I'm Randy, the pastor, half of the podcast, and my friend Kyle is a philosopher. This podcast hosts conversations at the intersection of philosophy, theology and spirituality.

Kyle: 0:15

We also invite experts to join us, making public a space that we've often enjoyed off-air, around the proverbial table with a good drink in the back corner of a dark pub.

Randy: 0:24

Thanks for joining us and welcome to A Pastor and a Philosopher. Walk into a Bar.

Kyle: 0:36

So today on the show we're joined again by our friend, sean Blanchard, who is our favorite Catholic theologian. We've talked to him several times at this point about various things, most recently, I think, vatican II and he's on the show now for this kind of special release episode for obvious reasons. Very sadly, pope Francis passed away and we immediately had the thought we should talk to somebody Catholic about this and of course Sean was the first person that came to both of our minds and he very graciously joined us quickly from his home in Australia and so very graciously joined us quickly from his home in Australia and so we're talking with him about Pope Francis's legacy, what his papacy has meant to the church, what it's maybe meant historically, what's happening. As we speak we're releasing this during the conclave and so we're all wondering what's going on in there and we talk a bit about that. We get kind of have a little fun trying to get him to guess who he thinks the pick will be. It's a kind of somber because of the occasion, but also kind of fun conversation.

Randy: 1:35

Yeah, hopefully, by the time you're listening, the white smoke. There's no blue smoke. I don't think, black smoke and white smoke. Maybe the white smoke has gone up already and you know who the new pope is. But, um, I think francis deserves a moment.

Randy: 1:48

I I had never been really fully aware of popes until francis, and I mean and by that I mean for john paul ii I was I think it's john paul ii, right? Um, before benedict, yeah, yeah, the second is the part that I'm like I'm pretty pretty sure he's the second, you know. I mean, I remember him the most because he was the pope for the longest during my lifetime. But then Benedict was pope when I should have known, but he just didn't do anything compelling enough and I know that I'm going to make some Catholics angry saying this, but I just wasn't. He didn't do anything interesting enough for a Protestant like me to pay attention. But that changed with Francis.

Randy: 2:26

Francis is a unique, as we went into in this episode, but everybody knows he's a very unique pope. I think we'll probably look back on him as the most consequential pope of our time, I hope, because I really believe in some of the reforms that he was seemingly moving the church towards, really believe in some of the reforms that he was seemingly moving the church towards. And I say seemingly because nothing can be done in the Catholic church. That's just like, hey, let's change this and do it now. It takes centuries to change things in the Catholic church. So I just have been moved by Francis over and over again and impressed by Francis over and over again, and he's exactly to me, the kind of Pope that we needed and I hope we get another one like him, desperately hope that somebody to speak into the moment in prophetic ways.

Randy: 3:14

The Pope's role is a weird thing for Protestants to keep our heads around, but I think the most, for me, the most important thing that the Pope does is he's to me, he's the moral consciousness of our world, like that's a really huge way to put it. But there's not many other people who can speak to leaders across the world on different parties, different ideologies, different all sorts of things and speak with some authority in ways that people listen. I don't know if there's many people in our world that can do that the way the Pope can. And Francis really used his platform to bring about peace in the world, to make the world more aware of the ecological crisis that we were in, to make the world more loving and less hateful, to make the world more inclusive in some profound ways. So all of this stuff comes up in the interview. But I just say this to say I'm just processing a little bit of like a little bit a tiny shred of grief that Francis has gone.

Kyle: 4:19

Which is remarkable in itself, that a Protestant would feel grief over the loss of the Pope. I mean, any human, would you know, should feel something like that for any other prominent human, especially a good one. But no, I bet that's a widespread feeling. Just like you, protestants usually have no reason to be much aware of what the Pope is doing. Think many of us, particularly on the more progressive end of the Protestant spectrum, have felt a real sense of almost pride in somebody who is not, you know of our traditions and felt seen by him and heard by him and understood by him and a little annoyed by him at times but also like very grateful, you know, to have somebody like him in that seat. And one thing I love about Sean and his willingness to keep talking to us is he's willing to put up with very graciously, really dumb Protestant questions and try to cause. He used to be a Protestant.

Randy: 5:12

He used to be a dumb Protestant, yep.

Kyle: 5:13

Yeah, and try to explain things so that they'll make sense from our perspective. So I just love talking to him. He's he's a great deal of fun and super knowledgeable about all this stuff and has this historical view that I definitely do not have. And, um, yeah, it was a good conversation, absolutely.

Randy: 5:31

And I think if you're not interested in the Pope at all and you're a Protestant, um, I just want to say as the Catholic church goes, so goes the rest of the church in the world, and that you know that that's big statement, and there's surely some many, many Protestant camps in America who can't stand the Catholic church and want nothing to do with it and think it's the evil and the antichrist and all the things. But the reality is that where the Catholic church goes, the rest of the church goes. In many ways, whether it's late or not, it affects the rest of the church, the global ways. Whether it's late or not, it affects the rest of the church, the global church, and so I think, for that reason alone, whoever becomes the next Pope matters. So I'm really, like you said, I'm really grateful for Sean and his willingness to engage with us.

Kyle: 6:21

And I'll also say, if you saw the movie conclave, stay tuned. Yeah, we have a nice little chat about that.

Randy: 6:27

It does come up so and unfortunately, I was in a you know, I was in Nashville and an Airbnb with really crappy uh internet. So, um, hopefully you get some decent stuff out of me, but yeah, yeah.

Kyle: 6:41

We did kind of throw this one together in a way that we don't usually, so our audio might not be what you've come to expect from us.

Randy: 6:47

We all recorded from our own homes without our Even this is on Zoom, so forgive us, friends. We're just trying to get this conversation out while the conversation about the Pope is still happening, so thanks for bearing with us.

Kyle: 7:18

Well, Sean Blanchard, welcome back to A Pastor and a Philosopher Walking to a Bar.

Shaun: 7:22

Thanks for having me.

Kyle: 7:24

It's really great to see you again. You are as we were just joking before we hit record our favorite Catholic, the one that we keep bringing back to ask the stupid questions that would annoy most Catholics. But we trust you and we hope that you love us enough to not get annoyed.

Kyle: 7:39

So, the reason that you're here is actually kind of sad and that is the death of Pope Francis. And as soon as that happened, randy texted me let's talk to Sean and I said I was literally just thinking that and shot you an email and here you are and we wanted to kind of get it out quickly while things are still going, so that you can clue us in as to what's happening as they're unfolding. What's happening as they're unfolding. But also we wanted to take this opportunity to just kind of think about his legacy a little bit and what you think, because you have a nice historical you know focus. You can see the long game here. That's one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you about this and we don't, we can't.

Kyle: 8:19

We're Protestants who, you know, we read the headlines about Francis and we get excited about some of the things he says and then we get a little sad about other things that he says. But I don't have personally a really good historical perspective on how he's going to be viewed in a hundred years or where he fits or anything like that. So I would like to get your take on all that stuff. So I don't know how we should step into this, if there's any obvious first question other than to say as a Protestant and Randy, you can speak for yourself. But it's like I'm interested in the Pope and I'm interested in the things that he says and I'm probably an unusual Protestant but Protestants in general probably kind of have a hard time getting their head around a Pope in general appreciating what it means to Catholics. So how are things in the Catholic? I know the Catholic world is a kind of a dumb thing to say, but like how are things right now for Catholics?

Shaun: 9:10

Yeah, it's. I mean, as you said, it's obviously sad and I think a lot of people felt very safe with Pope Francis and they felt, even though he was quite unpredictable and he said things that irritated everyone. At some point someone was frustrated with something that he said, but he was so endearing and he had such a pastor's heart that I think I would say the great majority of Catholics would be, would be mourning his passing and would feel some sense of uncertainty, and I think that that uncertainty is probably completely normal. I mean, I haven't lived through that many or I haven't, rather I haven't been Catholic for that many conclaves. I haven't lived through that many conclaves really, because there were three in 1978, or rather there were two.

Shaun: 9:59

Pope Paul VI died, john Paul I he only lives a month then John Paul II, and John Paul II was pope for 27 years. So for a huge amount of folks you know our age group in particular it's really John Paul II, then Pope Benedict Joseph Ratzinger, who was seen really as in many ways a kind of continuation of John Paul II. He was John Paul II's kind of right-hand man with doctrine, certainly. And then we have this huge surprise in Pope Francis, and Pope Francis, you know you always have to be careful when you're talking about religious history or political history, when you say stuff like unprecedented. But there really were unprecedented things about Pope Francis. He was the first Latin American pope, he was the first Jesuit pope, he was the first non-European pope, even though, you know, culturally he was very much a kind of Italian, argentinian, but I mean, he's the first non-European pope since, I think the ninth century. There was, I think, a Syrian pope. So there were, you know, middle Eastern and North African popes in the early first millennium of the church, but then it became a sort of exclusively European and even heavily, heavily Italian office. So there were unprecedented things.

Shaun: 11:09

One thing that I keep coming back to I think we spoke about this a couple of years ago is I see him as the first truly post-Vatican II pope, and by that I don't mean something like oh, the other popes didn't get Vatican II and finally we have a guy who gets it. I don't mean that, although some people certainly think that he's the first pope ordained after the Second Vatican Council concluded. So he had no priestly ministry before the Second Vatican Council. He remembers that, of course, he was born in, I think, 1936. So his formative years were in this pre-Vatican II milieu, but his entire ministry as a priest and then a bishop and then pope is in the post-Vatican II church.

Shaun: 11:54

The way that he spoke about doctrine, the way that he understood change and the possibility of change, and also probably led to some of the divisions and the challenges that there were a lot of American conservatives in particular who had a particular reception of Vatican II or rejection, as the case may be and he just really didn't even engage with that. He had, I think, disdain for that perspective and he was quite dismissive of it and that could lead to tensions, especially in the United States. But I really think that's a mainly American, british, french. This isn't something. I'm sure we'll talk about this later. This isn't a huge issue in Southeast Asia or even in africa, um. So there's also this question sort of where you are, pope francis is is what does pope francis mean in during trump's second term, in the united states versus in sri lanka versus in nigeria? You know very different things, I would say. Anyway, I could go on and on and on ad-libbing, but I should let you ask me questions rather than subject you to my stream of consciousness as I drink my morning coffee.

Kyle: 13:09

Yeah, we should say for the listener. Sean is in Australia, so it's morning for him and evening for us. If you don't mind my asking, what has he meant to you personally? Does someone like you experience this loss as personal, or is it like I'm just trying to think what an analogy would be for some checked out Protestant like myself?

Shaun: 13:29

So I remember I was a senior in high school when John Paul II died and I was setting up. I was working at a restaurant we were setting up for a wedding reception and I remember seeing the funeral and feeling quite moved by it and thinking. I remember seeing the funeral and feeling quite moved by it and thinking, and the family that owned the restaurant were our Catholics, gualtieri, italian heritage and they were profoundly moved, anti-papal, anti-catholic perspective of my upbringing. But I didn't feel anything personal towards John Paul II other than he was this smiling old man who had been very, very sick for a long time. So I didn't really feel much.

Shaun: 14:15

When Joseph Ratzinger resigned I was absolutely shocked but I was so excited because I was teaching church history and my students got to class and they said I was teaching high school in Raleigh, north Carolina, and my students said the Pope resigned. The Pope resigned, said no, guys, that doesn't happen. You're listening to fake news stuff because they'd come in with you know. Oh, did you hear that? You know, and some crazy thing they heard on talk radio. And I say no, no, no, barack Obama is not a jihadist. I don't know, barack Obama is not a jihadist.

Shaun: 14:43

I don't know where you're from, you know, whatever, whatever thing and they would throw these crazy things and they would expect me to then debunk it or we would laugh about it. So I said, no guys, remember, we just covered that the last pope to resign was in, you know, 14, 15. And it was. There were three men claiming to be pope and all this stuff, and they go. No, no, he did, and they were right. So they held that over me forever. I just refused to listen to the fact. But I was profoundly moved by that, actually, because I thought it was an amazing decision and the right decision. And and then when Ratzinger passed I mean he was very old, it was, I think it was 2022. And I felt like a kind of you know, well done, faithful servant. It's time. You're very, you've lived this rich, long life and I didn't. I didn't really feel sadness. I felt sort of it's ready, you know, you're ready With Pope Francis.

Shaun: 15:39

We had an Easter break last week and my wife and I went away and I got several texts at the same time from from friends and colleagues that the Pope has died and I felt, on one hand, you know, I felt, OK, he's very old man, he has had these health. We easily could have lost him a couple of months ago. He pulled through. It's probably time, but I it felt more personal to me. I got up and kind of went for a little walk and obviously the death of someone of that age is very, very different from dealing with the death of a younger person or someone tragically diagnosed with cancer or what have you. That's a kind of theodicy problem, like a problem of evil issue. This doesn't feel that way, but I felt profound, a profound sense of the moment, the importance of the moment.

Shaun: 16:30

I felt moved, but I mostly just felt gratitude. I think I mostly felt happiness if that sounds strange, Obviously not happiness that he died, but happiness for his witness, who he was, what he meant to me. I feel very because he was elected in 2013, I believe. I feel very, I felt very challenged by him. I mean, coming from where I came from, you know, middle class white guy, North Carolina, just sort of the general cultural assumptions I imbibed were very directly challenged by him a number of times and that was really good, that was really healthy and I appreciated the way that he did that. So, yeah, I miss him, I was sad, but also I would say my overwhelming sense was gratitude.

Randy: 17:20

Sean, can you articulate for us? I mean you mentioned your, like former selves, anti-papal, you know tendencies. I mean that's like a trope within the Protestant world that many of us grew up with. But can you just, in like a short answer, give us a big picture view of how Catholics view the Pope? Why is the Pope so significant and what power doesn't the pope have? Because francis had all these things, these beautiful things that he said, these things that he seemed to stand for, and at the same time we all knew, at the same time he wouldn't be able to change much of anything in in the grand scheme of the church. So can you just take a, an ignorant protestant, into that world a little bit?

Shaun: 18:02

yeah, so I'll speak in very broad brushstrokes because that would be the only way to be brief here. But I mean, so Catholics would all accept that the Pope is the successor of Peter, so he's the head of who we believe to be the successors of the apostles, of all the apostles, who are the bishops. There's complicated debates about his precise authority. Related to the rest are the bishops. There's complicated debates about his precise authority related to the rest of the bishops, and I think Pope Francis contributed to those debates in important ways. But I mean he really is, on a practical level, a kind of chief executive of the entire Church. He names bishops, which I think is probably his most important prerogative. Bishops, which I think is probably his most important prerogative, wasn't always the case, but for about the last 200 years the Pope has named virtually every Catholic bishop in the world and that can profoundly shape the culture of Kansas or of South Korea in ways that even his, if he were to sort of issue kinds of commands from on high, I mean bishops can kind of say, on certain things at least, they can kind of say thanks but no thanks, or they can just receive it and not really do anything. So the bishops have an enormous amount of pragmatic and theoretical power kind of in their diocese, which is their geographical area, but the fact that the Pope can appoint the Archbishop of Milwaukee is of enormous significance.

Shaun: 19:27

We also see the Pope as the pastor of the entire church, so I don't really have to worry too terribly much, living in the Archdiocese of Perth. What the Archbishop of Adelaide says, I mean it could be inspiring or I could be mad about it, but it doesn't really impact me that directly. My bishop can impact my life and my community and the Pope is sort of then a second pastor and a superior pastor of the entire Catholic world. Now this then gets into all the reasons why the Orthodox and the Protestants would have problems with that, and I think some of their critiques are good critiques.

Shaun: 20:03

Nevertheless, the Pope's place is, especially in this world of the way technology works, the way social media works. I mean the Pope is possibly even more important now in the actual spiritual lives of Catholics than he's maybe ever been in history. You know, we can listen to the Pope. This creates tension as well. We can sort of appeal to the Pope and what we see him say on YouTube or what we read from his Twitter against a priest or a bishop locally who says something different. This also creates challenges. But yeah, theologically he's the successor of St Peter and he has a primacy or a firstness in the church. Got it, thank you.

Kyle: 20:49

So tell us a little bit about his legacy. How do you think he's going to be remembered, especially compared to the previous two popes? To hear some folks tell it, I won't name any names, but he took the church on kind of a hard left turn and ruined a bunch of stuff. How significant were the reforms that he accomplished in reality in your perspective, and how historically significant do you think his papacy will be viewed?

Shaun: 21:16

Well, I think that in comparison to the previous two popes, there was a certain and I answer as a church historian and a theologian, so there's a particular angle that I find most interesting. And then you just asked me if I can answer in a more full way or from different angles, if you wish. But there was a certain reception of the Second Vatican Council and we did an episode on this together. The big church meeting 1962 to 1965, did all kinds of stuff on this together. The big church meeting 1962 to 1965 did all kinds of stuff. The most obvious is essentially replacing the Latin Mass with the new vernacular Mass. There was a certain reception of that council, especially in the late time, the late reign of John Paul II, so maybe 1995 to 05, and then certainly the papacy of Pope Benedict, which was 2005 to 2013. There was a certain reception of Vatican II, especially in the English-speaking world, that was seen to be kind of regnant and it was seen to be the kind of official and orthodox perspective and there were certain issues that had been debated, that were then declared to be over by various authority figures, and one particular debate and this really led to a lot of the initial pushback against Pope Francis was whether divorced and remarried people could receive communion under certain circumstances, so someone who's divorced and remarried and is in a new sexual relationship rather than divorced and just living alone or living celibately. So this was an issue that there had been a huge deal of debate about and it had been more or less considered a closed issue. And the answer is no, and Pope Francis sort of reopens this debate because, from his perspective, well, we were talking about this in the 70s, 80s, 90s there were arguments for and against. It's a pastoral question and he saw that simply as his prerogative to continue a debate that had been, you know, was of great pastoral importance and had been raging. So the fact that he did those sorts of things was seen and I think correctly, was seen as a sea change in a kind of ecclesial culture, like a culture of what do we talk about, how do we talk about it. That dramatically changed.

Shaun: 23:31

When it comes to concrete reforms, I think it just tremendously depends upon the next pope and the next pope and also just how the bishops receive this stuff. For example, fiducia Suplicans was a document released under Pope Francis I don't think it was technically by Pope Francis, but by his doctrine office about blessing same-sex couples. So not sort of saying yes, we're officiating this as a wedding, but saying you as a couple, we're going to sort of recognize you as some sort of corporate reality and bless you and welcome you. That was received and implemented in certain parts of the church. But the bishops of Africa almost uniformly said we're just not doing this. This just isn't going to work in Africa. We don't see this as appropriate, we see it as a contusion, et cetera. So Pope Francis apparently met with this cardinal who was the head of the bishops conference in Africa, and they came to an understanding about this.

Shaun: 24:30

But that's an example of how a pope could, upon his own authority, decree a kind of opening, not a command, but a kind of opening. We can think this way about this issue. We can do this this way. Certain parts of the church could receive it and certain parts of the church could not receive it. That's always been a reality, but it's been a little bit more of a de facto, it's been a little more pragmatic, whereas now it's—Pope Francis would bring a simmering debate under the surface, out into the open.

Shaun: 25:03

I mean, he said when he was elected pope I want to make a mess, and he did. And some people think it's a beautiful mess and that's what human life is, and trying to live the gospel in a global church. And some people think it's a destructive, ambiguous, confusing mess. The words that cardinals use when they talk about ambiguity and clarity, they're usually signaling at least maybe there were problematic elements of this. If they talk about pastoral openness, mercy, that sort of language, they're signaling this is basically right and good and we should continue down this path. So I mean they're literally right now I guess it's 3 am in Rome, but when they wake up, all this stuff is going to kick off again and people will be using in public sort of coded language Do we want Francis 2.0 or do we want a total, a total reversal, or do we want some sort of moderate in between? And that's really what's what's happening right now in the churches.

Shaun: 26:02

To what? To what extent is this a sort of healthy, pastoral? Um, I don't want to say drift in the sense it's unconscious drive, it's a drive, it's a, it's a very self-conscious drive. Is this healthy, is this good, or is this something that has gone too far? And that's that's. I think who the next Pope is will be. I mean it's. It's a, it's a referendum. Every election is, in a sense, a referendum on the previous pope or president, or whatever it might be.

Kyle: 26:28

Yeah, that's interesting, you said, and I don't want to get you in any political trouble here, so feel free to respond however you need to, but the let's make a mess ethos is maybe ironically, I'm not sure also what's seemingly driving the United States government at the moment, but the contrast couldn't be starker in the ways that it's approached.

Shaun: 26:53

Yeah, and there have been people who have I think, unfairly and incorrectly had sort of compared Trump and Francis as a sort of you know, a populist leader who is autocratic and appeals directly to the people. I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. I do think there is a cultural moment that different leaders are able to appeal to, but coming from dramatically different perspectives. There's a mistrust of institutions, sometimes rightly of institutions, sometimes rightly. I think that the moral credibility of the US bishops was at an all-time low in the late aughts and early 20-teens because of the sex abuse crisis and because of a whole range of other factors. And there are many Catholics who believe who.

Shaun: 27:39

I think feel it's this paradoxical thing where they don't trust the institution of the church but they do trust the leader of the institution under pope francis. That's interesting and there is there is a kind of this, a similar cultural that we're seeing now all over the world, not just in the us, I think I told you guys when I was at the the vatican last time. I was just going in to go to mass or something and there was a young italian man behind me talking to his uncle or dad or something and he said I believe in Jesus but I don't believe in the church. I think that there are people who would now say I believe in the pope but not in the bishops. I think that's interesting. I don't think that was the case so much with John Paul II or Benedict. This is new, in my lifetime at least.

Randy: 28:31

Yeah, so would you say, sean, that being able to discern the influence of Francis will be able to happen as we see the results of the conclave, like from this layman's, protestant's perspective? I mean, francis certainly moved the church left in pastoral ways, and when we say left for our listeners, we're not talking about politically left, we're talking about for pastoral issues on, like divorce, like you said, or same-sex blessings, or women ministering and reaching out to the marginalized. Whatever, and it feels like whatever the cardinals decide in this conclave is the way that, like, we're going to see what Francis' true influence over the future of the church is going to be if we keep moving in a more progressive, theologically progressive and pastorally progressive direction. Would you agree with that, or is that? Is it more nuanced than that?

Shaun: 29:24

I think in the short term, absolutely. And then you know, however broad we take the perspective, there could be great, a great continuation. We could have Francis three, four, five, six, or we could then have a reversal at some stage. But absolutely the immediate, the immediate referendum, if you will, to use political language, is is what do the cardinals do? If you will to use political language, is what do the cardinals do? And I think my suspicion is that both the haters of Pope Francis, of which I would say most traditionalists I don't mean that they have unholy animus towards him, some of them do, some of them don't, but they're definitely opposed to his general orientation they're going to be disappointed, almost certainly, because just so few of the cardinals have that perspective, especially, it's a handful. They're all Western. Sorry, they're not all Western, but they're mainly Western.

Kyle: 30:17

I read some and this was a while ago and I could have gotten it completely wrong but there's a significant percentage of the cardinals who will be selecting the next Pope that were put there by Francis. Is that accurate? Do you have?

Shaun: 30:28

a sense Very high yeah.

Kyle: 30:31

I think it's like higher than I thought, yeah, it's like 70% or something. Yeah, yeah, I thought it was a strong majority.

Shaun: 30:38

Absolutely, absolutely. So I think the progressives by European and North American standards, the progressives, I think will probably be disappointed. I think the traditionalists will certainly be disappointed. I think we're going to get maybe not Francis 2.0, but I don't think the next pope is going to push, as I mean Francis' push with fiducia. Supplicans on the blessing of same-sex couples was very, very bold. I don't think we're going to see that sort of push, but I do think we'll see a general acceptance of this basic attitude is positive and good and we're not going to see public trashing of Francis's legacy from the next pope, for pragmatic reasons and probably for principled reasons. That's my best guess.

Kyle: 31:37

Yeah, I mean, when was the last time a pope publicly trashed a previous pope?

Shaun: 31:41

Yeah.

Kyle: 31:43

I'm not sure it has happened trashed a previous pope?

Shaun: 31:49

yeah, I'm not sure it has happened, but yeah, I'm thinking of some, uh, remarkable moments in the middle ages. But you're right in any modern sense? No, you always say I mean, that's the whole point. Right is like, as my predecessor also said, and then you say you know, yeah, even if it's the opposite. On this is where I think Francis was sort of was maybe caricatured by his opponents. They present him as this. Is this this total, you know, lightning bolt of radicality that came out of nowhere and he really wasn't that at all.

Shaun: 32:32

The church had for centuries, had said the death penalty could be the just recompense for a particular fault. It was a just response to certain crimes. There's then this movement in the 20th century. There's always an interesting minority report, like with universalism, like with so many issues what is the relationship with the Jewish people? There's always a minority report, because you have this data in scripture and you have people thinking and praying about these issues. But with the death penalty, john Paul II, basically, really it's a sort of radical, but under the surface shift where he says we're no longer conceiving of this as an issue of justice. It's the. He doesn't say that out loud, he says the only reason you can execute someone is to prevent further death. So basically, like what? A cartel lord who could still order executions from his jail cell, something like that. So he shifts it into a self-defense posture and Francis then says look, those cases just don't exist and it's also an offense against human dignity, which John Paul II also said. So that's the kind of reform that Francis was doing was actually stuff that was.

Shaun: 33:42

The field was tilled by his predecessors on all kinds of issues. They said in the early 90s the idea that a divorced and remarried couple could live together was seen as inappropriate, until I think there's a document in the early 90s where John Paul II says well, no, there could be circumstances and it's no one's business whether you're going up for communion or not, it's a private pastoral matter. Now he would say they should not go up for communion. But there's always these shifts and there's always these new reflections and new circumstances and I think Francis's style of just being open about this and honest about this was shocking to people. And then they think that the church always had a consistent statement on the death penalty and then, out of nowhere, pope Francis is like oh, I'm going to change it because I want the liberal media to love me or whatever they think. No, this is a. This is a conversations within our tradition that Pope Francis is reopening in a particular way and he's following a kind of reformist momentum.

Randy: 34:40

So, sean, I've got a couple of questions about the intricacies of the conclave and the decision that's upcoming. One is just a super simple one. Well, I think it's simple, but what does it mean that some cardinals would like to take the church in a more European direction? What does that mean in general? Does that mean just more traditional?

Shaun: 35:00

Yeah, I think that there's a set of conversations that you know political, theological, philosophical that some of the European Catholics and just the kind of Western Catholics in general are more comfortable with having. And I think that, like, for example, under Pope Benedict, there was this great emphasis on secularization, the danger of secularization, relativism, this sort of thing, and I think there are some Catholics who maybe were on a whole spectrum of views of Francis who want to be having those conversations and they're less interested in the sort of maybe more global South perspective of Pope Francis. They're less interested in conversations about immigration and climate change and things like that and they're more interested in just the world is secular. I see this in my students. Honestly, I see many of my white Australian students, whether they're sort of against the church or super devout Catholics, they have a certain paradigm of religion in the modern world. These are the questions posed by religion. Let's talk about those questions. And then I have students from, you know, southeast Asia, south America, africa, who maybe have a completely different, just paradigm for viewing it. So I think you'll see that sort of thing coming up.

Shaun: 36:12

Surely You'll also see Italians, of course. Haven't had the papacy since 1978. So you'll see Italians all over the ideological spectrum who would either they'd be open about this or they would just rejoice when it happens. They really want there to be an Italian pope. So there's no question, Pope Francis has moved. There's the church has been.

Shaun: 36:31

The papacy has been explicitly global in its approach, I think for much of the 20th century. But the the hermeneutic that Pope Francis has for talking about politics and theology is different and there were people who were, who were disturbed by that. I was challenged by it. There were certain documents I don't know where he's coming from, I don't know any of these people he's citing, and I was uncomfortable, but it helped me. I had years and years to sort of think about this and digest this and I think it's really improved my ability to teach in a global context, to try to think in a more Catholic way. So I see it as a good thing, but it's uncomfortable and you guys would know analogs from the Protestant world about who are you reading, what buzzwords do you use and not use, and that's a kind of signal of in-group belonging and things like that. Thank you.

Randy: 37:23

Benedict was clearly a theologian right, a pope with theological leanings, and Francis seems to be very much pastoral. Maybe it's just because I've been more aware of the Catholic Church and the pope in the last 12 years, but I think Francis has seemed much more consequential than Benedict. I think that's probably a very like, probably true from my perspective, but from my perspective I would love to see another pastoral pope with that kind of same kind of vision towards just regular people in the church and people interacting with the church in those pastoral ways, rather than a theologian whose head is in the clouds and talking about doctrine all the time. Now, that shows my bent. What are your thoughts as a theologian?

Shaun: 38:04

Yeah, that's a great question. I loved Pope Benedict's writings, but I do think there were criticisms of him that you know. He had essentially lost control administratively and he was unable to I think he confirmed this in his resignation and his subsequent comments. He was unable to hem in a lot of the corruption that was around him. I think he didn't think he was the right man moving forward to lead the church through the abuse crisis. I think there are justifiable criticisms of Pope Francis on similar counts as well. I think clearly the church has made great progress with the abuse crisis, but is not where it needs to be. I think Pope Francis was the first to admit he had made mistakes and that he's learned new ways of, about transparency and about accountability and things like this and how he makes decisions, who he appoints and why. I think that you're right. I would. If I had to disagree or disagree. I would agree, randy. I think that you're right. If I had to disagree or disagree, I would agree, randy. I think that the Pope, first and foremost, is a pastor. I think that that pastoral momentum obviously has to be grounded in theology. I think Pope Francis is a more sophisticated theological thinker than a lot of people, I think, give him credit, for I think his style is very different.

Shaun: 39:23

I remember at Marquette one time, kyle Kyle and I were both grad students at Marquette. I was in theology, kyle in philosophy. But I remember being in a Latin American theology class and one student said well, this is all great. It was, we're talking about liberation theology, which I think Pope Francis was increasingly positive about. He was against it in the 70s, 80s, and then he, I think, more or less accepted its central critiques or central ideas. But a student said well, this is great, we just need to ground all of this in systematic theology. And the teacher was like okay, what do you mean? And he's like well, really, what liberation theologians need is Lonergan, you know. And then he went in.

Kyle: 40:05

I bet I know who this was.

Shaun: 40:09

We won't name his or her. Well, we can say it's definitely his name. But the professor was so frustrated but did a really good job of saying like oh, no, no, no, no, this is systematic theology. This is just a different way of doing systematic theology. This is systematic theology. This is just a different way of doing systematic theology.

Shaun: 40:25

So I do think there like to go back to your comment about Western and European there are people who think, well, that's very nice. You know, the parable of the Good Samaritan is great and you know we need to welcome refugees, but we also need, like, real clear, systematic. I think he had that. He just had it in. It was rooted in a different way and his style was also very. It wasn't professorial at all, you know, it was very. It was more like a prophetic style, a shooting from the from the hip style. But no, I agree, randy, I think we need that. I do think there, you know, a multiplicity of styles is healthy.

Shaun: 41:00

But it's also worth pointing out Ratzinger never wanted to be Pope. Ratzinger wanted to be a professor. He was happiest when he was with his grad students. He wanted to write systematic theology and play the piano and watch black and white movies with his sister. He never wanted to be doing the holistic, totalizing job of the Pope. And I do wonder if the Cardinals will remember that if they're tempted to elect a theologian and they probably won't elect a professional theologian you just have to surround yourself with the right people, just like being a good president or a good prime minister. If you're working with the right theologians, the right social scientists, then you're a facilitator of everyone else's gifts. So I think Francis was good at that. I think John Paul II was good at that. Benedict, I think, was a beautiful man and a beautiful thinker, but was sort of in over his head administratively.

Randy: 41:53

So in my dreams the conclave elects another progressive pastoral pope you know like maybe the guy from the Philippines would be amazing, or there's that Italian guy, I don't know these names. But let's just pretend that the church keeps moving a little bit more to a pastorally progressive place while at the same time the church in the global south, in Africa, asia, wherever is exploding way more than the rest of the world. So if you can imagine a church in the next 100 to 200 years, even where we're moving to the left a little bit pastorally but all of a sudden there's more control happening, but with the global south, because of the conservatism and theological conservatism from within that part of the world, where do you see the church going in the next 200 years? Perhaps?

Shaun: 42:40

Yeah, that's a great question, Randy. I mean anyone who says they know is lying. But I do think we have, we can make some interesting general predictions. I think we could get, like we could get, a pope that would kind of break American brains because he could say climate change is real and is harming the poor. America is basically. I mean he could imply America is basically a force for evil in the world. He could speak frankly about the devil and demonic possession and he could say, like homosexuality is a western import and it's just a perversion that people need to just stop doing it, or something.

Shaun: 43:21

You know what I mean. Like you can just get this combination of views that accept the science around climate change, stop doing it, or something. You know what I mean. Like you can just get this combination of views that, uh, except the science around climate change, but maybe more literalistic readings of the Bible that maybe even a European conservative wouldn't have. I mean it totally. It just totally depends when is the person educated, what is the, the culture they're coming from, the assumptions they have.

Shaun: 43:40

So I think that probably, I think using right and left, I mean I know what you mean and I I think there's a, there's certainly a place for it when we're talking about all kinds of issues. It's a necessary shorthand, but, like what we mean by that could be real, could get really messy because we, like in America, they. One of the big reasons there was so much pushback against Pope Francis, I think, was economic and political. It was like a guy that's challenging neoliberal economics in a more direct and sustained and quite visceral way compared to John Paul II and Benedict. Even though they would make the same basic critique, they probably didn't do so as frequently or as vehemently. So you know how would a?

Shaun: 44:26

There there could be a cardinal from the global south who says things about homosexuality that an american conservative would not say you know about as a civil or cultural reality. We could have that. But that person could also say you know, america is, uh, in league with the devil by destroying the planet and it's a sort of anti-christ. So yeah, it's, it's gonna be, it's. We'll probably have something not quite as extreme as that, right, but we could be moving in directions where, when we say liberal and conservative, what do we mean? And we'll have to specify, like like a global south perspective on this, or we'll have to get into more of the continental, because we're really I think we're really practicing. I mean, what does it mean to be a global church where we can all communicate with each other in the age of the internet? That's new. It's not like people getting on boats and you know there's a Dutch bishop in Indonesia. It's a very different world now.

Kyle: 45:25

So yeah, I mean, we're talking live from three different locations in two different countries so that wasn't the case well, I mean, that wasn't the case two popes ago.

Shaun: 45:34

So oh, exactly, and we're like frustrated that, like we are, our conversation could be in any way constrained by a battery or an internet connection that seems like this. It's like a retrograde problem like why? Why do we have the indignity?

Kyle: 45:48

it reminds me of an old comedy sketch by a comedian who has since been canceled, so I won't name them, but but he was talking about getting on the wi-fi on a plane for the first time and the person next to him tries to log it on and it doesn't work and they're like ah, son of a bitch.

Randy: 46:04

And he's like 10 seconds ago.

Kyle: 46:06

You didn't know this existed.

Shaun: 46:08

I know, I know it's crazy. So I think that this election I mean I say this election is so important and it's it's going to be a fascinating referendum, but then, you know, the Pope could could do very little and die in six months and then the next Pope could be for a whole variety of reasons could be completely different. There was something that we were emailing about, about the question of the current political situation and how that will impact who is elected pope. And my personal opinion is and I could be wrong and I could be proven wrong very soon, because the conclave is on May 7th but Peter Erdo is the Archbishop, uh, or the the um archbishop of budapest, so hungary, and he has basically, apparently basically amicable relations with, uh, victor orban. I think that that is going to work against him, less because of hungary and Hungary's situation and more because of the general anti-Russian sentiment of the European bishops. I just don't think someone who and I don't know if it's not fair to say Hungary is pro-Russia but they're anti-anti-Russia, if that makes sense, I mean they're not sort of in the Western bloc I would imagine that would work against him, even for the people who think on other matters he would be a good pope, whereas Pizzabala, who you know if they're electing on the basis of the best name, will win Cardinal Pizzabala, who is Italian, obviously, but he's the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem.

Shaun: 47:51

So you know, they have representatives of Orthodox churches, various Orthodox churches and the Catholic Church. So our bishop of the Holy Land, if you will, is Pizzabala and he's seen as he has very friendly relations with the Israelis. He studied the Hebrew language, he's very pro-Jewish in his theology, but he's in great solidarity with the Palestinian people and he's been very critical of the extreme excesses of the response to October 7th. He's also offered himself to Hamas as a hostage exchange for one of the Israelis. So I mean, he's a really radical, you know.

Shaun: 48:31

I think he, I think he's really driven by the gospel. I think he's aware of the political realities, he's sensitive to them, but I think he speaks the truth as he sees it to anyone, about anything. That kind of witness in this moment could get him elected, or people could simply say you know, we just don't need someone who's at the epicenter of one of these global conflicts. If there was an American cardinal there isn't, but if there was an American cardinal, I think the Trump 2.0 context would work against them, regardless of their attitude towards Trump. It just would be something the conclave wouldn't want to deal with.

Kyle: 49:09

There's not an American cardinal. I didn't even know that.

Shaun: 49:12

I don't know there are, but there's not one that's being considered.

Kyle: 49:15

Oh, that's in the running. I see what you're saying, yeah.

Shaun: 49:18

There was one, just very briefly, the Archbishop of Boston, Sean O'Malley, who was brought in to kind of have a pastoral response to the abuse crisis after the absolute disaster in Boston. He was Papable, I think, but I think he's now seen as too old. He's an amazing man. He's a Franciscan. I think he's very much a kind of maybe a more cautious Francis is his sort of general vibe. He'd be the only one.

Kyle: 49:44

Which would fit your 1.5 thing.

Shaun: 49:47

Yeah right.

Kyle: 49:48

We've kind of been walking around it. Let's play some bets here.

Randy: 49:52

You named a couple names. If you had to put, money on it.

Kyle: 49:54

Who do you think is like, say, top two or three in the running?

Shaun: 49:59

Yeah, interesting. I did a bracket with my high school students in 2013. I think I had Western and non-Western, so I had, like North America and Europe, you know, one through eight and then non-Western one through eight.

Kyle: 50:14

Um, so, how close was Francis in your bracket?

Shaun: 50:18

Francis was the four seed non-Western. Okay, which is interesting because he is kind of, in a sense he's Western, right, his, his, his grandparents are Italians, but yeah, I mean he's a, he's Western, his grandparents are Italians, he's a white man, but he's Latino. There's something very new about that. The Secretary of State is Pietro Parolin. The Secretary of State is the number two under the Pope when it comes to administration of administration. He would. If there's a quick conclave and I'm plagiarizing lots of people I've listened to and read but if there's a quick conclave, it's probably him they're probably all coming together and they're saying you know, we don't really know each other because it's not now. It's not like Turin, padua, bologna, and they all know each other and everything. That's what it was like in the past. It was mainly Europeans who knew each other and then a couple people from the peripheries. Now it's like Pope Francis in particular. You were right to say he's named so many of these cardinals, but where he's named them? I mean he's named them from Indonesia, from Mongolia, I mean. So a lot of these guys don't know each other. They're getting to know each other now, which is what the next 10 days are for. Then when they vote if they have decided. Ok, we need a basic continuity.

Shaun: 51:38

Pope Francis was beloved by many, but he was a spirited person and he was intense and there could be people who want to sort of slow down a little bit and take a breath. Parolin is a very cautious man. Sort of slow down a little bit and take a breath. Paroline is a very cautious man. He has a political diplomatic background, but there's various reasons why people may not want to vote for him. For one thing, he authored the agreement with China and the Vatican which has been heavily criticized by many people that it ceded too much to the Chinese government. But all those things are secretive, so I don't know that. We know I perylene is a real. If the conclave ends quickly, it it probably is perylene.

Shaun: 52:15

I think pete zabala has a real chance and I think he would be. He would be very intriguing because I he's not obviously liberal or conservative, um, and I think people, but that would maybe go against them because people say we don't know what we're going to get and it's too, it's too combustible of a situation. So I'd say perylene, pizzabala, and then there's a number of asian cardinals. I'll just give you a couple names ranjith from sri lanka. There's a singaporean named william who's involved in the charismatic renewal movement, so that could be seen as kind of dynamic.

Shaun: 52:57

You have someone from a new part of the world when it comes to papal elections. There's a South Korean named Hyung Sik who's involved with the Focolare movement, which is one of these post-Vatican II renewal movements. So if it drags, I think it's going to be like an asian that no one's talking about. So it could be the singaporean, could be the south korean, but if it's quick I think it's probably perylene, maybe pizzabala. So we could have some people jokingly say this is the italians last chance it's going to get harder from here.

Shaun: 53:31

They had it on lockdown from the Reformation until 1978. And this is their last best chance, and then it's going to be this sort of global thing for the next thousand years. Who knows? But if you're betting, you have to put money on one person. I would put money on perylene, but I think he's it's probably a 20 or 30 chance or something like that. If you had to say you know that they made it illegal at one point, the pope made it illegal to bet on the election because there was all these people in venice apparently were placing all these bets on it, and then I think that like got quietly dropped from from canon law. They started, though I mean immediately Ladbrokes or whatever had. I think they had Paralene as the leader, but I would take the field against anybody, if you will like. When you're betting on the NCAA tournament, I would take the field against anybody. Yeah.

Kyle: 54:25

Is there like a sense among Catholics that I don't know? Do you guys try to like figure this out? And obviously it's sad, I don't want to like discount that, but is there any of?

Shaun: 54:36

oh, let's see, uh, let's see, get into the drama of it yeah, you get. It's one of these funny things where, like, you'll get like texts from people being like oh, what about this, what about this? And then like publicly, people will say, like the man's not even cold, oh my gosh, that's terrible.

Kyle: 54:55

But they're texting you their bets, yeah.

Shaun: 54:58

It's, it's it's only natural. I don't really think there's anything wrong with it if it's done in a spirit of, like, genuine interest and openness and like, oh, there's all these interesting people with these different gifts. I think when it becomes when you, when you hitch your horse to a wagon or other way around and you are are sort of, I think, when it becomes too much like a referendum where your person has won or lost, I think then you get into dangerous territory and then you have to be able to be at least be open. Because there were people who were devastated when Ratzinger was elected, absolutely devastated because they remembered him as the kind of CDF crackdown guy. But then they read some of his writing for the first time ever and they thought, ok, well, I'm not going to agree with everything he does, especially the people he appoints to various roles, but actually there's something really beautiful here. He's written this encyclical about love and I can use it with my students. So that's what you have to do.

Shaun: 55:54

If you're upset about it, you have to say, okay, what can? What is God teaching me here? Like I have a lot of politically conservative friends in America who on paper, are just worlds away from Pope Francis, but many of them, to their credit, these aren't the ones posting nasty things on Twitter, but many of these people are like, okay, I sat down with this, I thought about it, I allow, I'm allowing it to challenge me, and that's a really beautiful thing. I think about the people office is that you kind of have to, you have to listen to them and for that reason, you can expose yourself to a viewpoint that if it was CNN, fox News, whatever, you just immediately say, oh well, that's crazy, that person's affiliated with Barack Obama or Donald Trump, and you just reject it With the Pope. You kind of have to sit with it and make sense of it. That's a good thing, I think, sure.

Kyle: 56:42

Well, this is one of those points that Protestant Catholic arguments always get back to because we don't have anybody like that. There's nobody we have to listen to, which could be a problem. So, in the spirit of enjoying the drama of it, did you see the movie?

Shaun: 56:59

Conclave, and if you don't want to talk, about this.

Kyle: 57:01

we don't have to talk about it, but I'm very curious. The whole time I was watching it, I thought I have to find out what Sean thinks about this.

Shaun: 57:10

Well, my wife refused to go with me. She said she doesn't do Pope movies and I'm like that's not really a genre like church movies. I'm like church movies is a genre, but I don't think Pope movies. I mean, there's the two Popes, which was which was really good.

Shaun: 57:25

I loved that. I really liked it. I mean it's sort of historical fiction, but it I thought that I really liked it. I mean it's sort of historical fiction, but I thought that Jonathan Price's portrayal of Francis was great. Anthony Hopkins I didn't think was too much like Ratzinger, but he's Anthony Hopkins and I really enjoyed it.

Kyle: 57:40

He was Anthony Hopkins as Pope, which is great yeah exactly, they had great conversations.

Shaun: 57:45

I think some of those conversations were illuminating, to like the actual things that people were debating at that time. Um, I really liked conclave. I really liked ray.

Kyle: 57:55

Uh, ralph, ralph finds right, ralph finds his character he pronounces it rave, which I don't think anyone knows why yeah, yeah, I've kind of old school english people do that.

Shaun: 58:07

Yeah, I thought it was, I was thinking it was Ray R A Y, but no, it's, it's, yeah, ralph Rafe. So his character I thought was excellent and I thought it was speaking to like a kind of spiritual, a kind of like sadness that a lot of, I think a lot of people with profound spiritual sensibilities right now and I'm not including myself, cause I don't think I have them, but they are they're just sad right now. They're sad at the state of the world and it's like they want to believe and they believe in christ, but they're like not sure if they believe in like god and the whole sort of superstructure of christian doctrine. And I think he tapped into that in a way that was like really, um, sympathetic, genuine, rather than you could do that in a really two-dimensional way, and I don't think he did. I mean some of this stuff about doubt. I'm not sure the way he articulated that. I would think a Catholic cardinal would do differently.

Kyle: 59:03

But it was still a great the little speech he gave into the room. Yeah, the little speech he gave into the room.

Shaun: 59:08

Yeah, yeah, like certainty, like the way, like the way Pope Francis would talk about certainty would be. He has certainty in the gospel and he has profound mistrust in how we get that wrong all the time, that whole that whole speech felt to me like it was written by a Protestant for Protestants or by like I don't know.

Kyle: 59:27

It was a little too. I profoundly agreed with everything in it and felt, yeah, yeah, tingles when he delivered it, but at the same time thought there's no way that would ever that's not really that was pandering to people like me maybe he would say that privately.

Shaun: 59:45

I don't think he would say that in his speech in that way. I think there's a way that you can make this a similar point, it's. That was just. That's a minor quibble. I thought he was an excellent character. A lot of my friends, including a very cynical, uh uh, an atheist, uh, jewish guy that I'm good friends with, said he was rooting for the italian fascist because he's like that. He's like this is what the calvary church really is. That's what they deserve.

Shaun: 1:00:08

He's like this is what the Catholic Church really is. That's what they deserve. He's like, this guy's awesome, he's just vaping. And then, of course, the Mexican, benito, cardinal Benito. I thought he was a beautiful character. The twist I thought was unnecessary. I still think that. I mean, I didn't have a problem with it. It's a real, it's a biological reality. But there were a lot of people who weren't conservative, religious people that told me they didn't like the twist and they thought it was a sort of distraction I mean, I've heard extremely liberal religious folks hate the twist too.

Randy: 1:00:43

So across the board.

Kyle: 1:00:44

A lot of people hated it and it did feel a little easy and a little, um, I don't know, sensational if they had, because the rest of it did feel a little easy and a little sensational Because the rest of it was so balanced. I thought and so comfortable with ambiguity. And there was even some ambiguity in the closing scene, I agree they kind of gave up on that for about five minutes.

Shaun: 1:01:03

Right, right, right. So I understand the critique. Everyone in the theater busted out laughing.

Kyle: 1:01:07

Yeah, that's not what you want. That's not what you want. That's not what you want to see no, and.

Shaun: 1:01:11

But when you see, finds his face, he's like oh yeah, you know, now I did, I guess, like I can appreciate the idea of, because clearly the dead pope was like a francis. That was the point. I thought right, and and when, when benito says oh know, I went to him and I told him about this and he said no, no, no, continue, continue. I mean that sort of rang true in the sense of like, oh, francis would say whatever he says about gay people or whatever. But then he encounters people and then he says oh, you know, that's kind of how he was, is he would make these comments that were like whoa, but then when he's faced with a person, he's always just sort of considering the person in their concreteness and things like that you know the thought I had, which harkens back to some of our, our history, and I almost texted this to you while I was watching it like the previous pope was dumbledore, because it's like he had orchestrated this whole thing like down to this detail predicting who is going to have which conflict with who.

Kyle: 1:02:13

Inserting people to take certain people off the map Like it was very and that aspect of it has to be way hyper-dramatized right. There can't be anything like that that actually happens in these conclaves, can there?

Shaun: 1:02:30

that actually happens in these conclaves, can there? I really think, well, speaking, in the modern you know the last 100 years I really think that when the pope is done, he's done in the sense that I don't think that they're. They might make clear to people I favor this person and not that person because they would promote them in certain roles and not and you know, and there's rumors that popes will have a favored successor, but I think they're very, very careful not to, oh, you know, name someone or anything like that. I, I had the impression that, for example, when the african cardinal, when he had had that, that prior relationship with the nun, I thought that john lithgow had set that up. Did you, were you under the impression it was the pope that had set that up?

Shaun: 1:03:10

I thought it was john lithgow's character who had tried to take away this major spoilers.

Kyle: 1:03:14

Maybe I should put a thing in the show notes um, my takeaway and it's been a while since I've seen it was that lithgow did set it up, lied about it, but the pope orchestrated things such that that would come out oh, he knew he knew that if he sent the nun and then it came out, he would react this way Such and such other person would investigate, and then yeah.

Shaun: 1:03:39

Dumbledore yeah yeah, no, totally, totally and a reformed Voldemort as a cardinal. You know I couldn't right, I couldn't. It was amazing to me, like the guy he's such an incredible. He does the evil amon galt or whatever the evil ss guy. Then he does valdemort and I thought an incredible performance. And then he does this. This really beautiful man I thought who was like really kind of faith in the modern world and what that means and stuff. So, look, I loved it and it came out at the right time. I'm glad it came out a couple months before and then people watched it and talked about it.

Shaun: 1:04:17

If it had come out right now it would just be seen as a straight up commentary on francis, even though it couldn't have logically been. Um, but there is, there is scheming, there is wheeling and dealing. I there's a cardinal right now who's asserting his right to participate even though he was convicted of these financial crimes. And then the dean of the College of Cardinals, who's 91 years old, had to produce a letter from Francis saying as a penalty for his financial crimes, he is excluded from the conclave. Crimes, he is excluded from the conclave.

Shaun: 1:04:52

So I mean they have had sort of conflict, but I don't think you would have something quite as masterfully orchestrated as as you saw in conclave, but definitely the the basic contours of like does this person have a secret child? The big question is going to be did this person fail to act on a credible abuse allegation and it hasn't come out yet? If that that could disqualify somebody, and rightly so but there are certain parts of the world that are way more sensitive to that. Like if you're in the US liberal or conservative, the most conservative or the most liberal you have a similar view of credible allegations must be reported to the police. Hopefully you believe that in principle, but even if you don't, or else the Boston Globe might find out, you know, I mean, everyone's kind of seen that in the same way and that isn't the case if you live in like an authoritarian, you know, like if you're in communist China, your relationship with the state is profoundly different, for example, yeah, totally so.

Shaun: 1:05:48

as far as the actual mechanics of the voting did, they get that right yes, they did, yeah, yeah, so they like they burn them afterward and everything yeah, they burn them, they, they call them out, they say that thing I in the sight of god, I yeah I'm sure they're mumbling it and doing it very quickly, because you do do birds fly through the windows to like signal god's intentions?

Kyle: 1:06:13

probably at some point I mean the one.

Shaun: 1:06:17

Oh, I also thought the sorry spoiler again, but the whole explosion thing I thought was a bit silly. I don't see how that could have actually shattered anyway. But um, they got the geopolitical thing of like you're going to have some europe Europeans that are going to have a certain attitude towards immigration and then others that are going to have Pope Francis's attitude, and I don't think anyone would be as openly swarmy as that as Tedesco. But you will get. Ok, we need to consider, along with welcome security, or could there be sex trafficking, or you know, you'll have sort of like should we pump the brakes on our rhetoric about, you know, quote unquote globalism or whatever it might be? That will be there for sure.

Kyle: 1:06:58

Yeah, yeah, okay. One more question, a little bit more serious, unfortunately. So what do you think is on the line with the choice of the next Pope, in the sense of, obviously, we have an ongoing threat of global authoritarianism being on the ascendancy, not just in the United States. Lots of places are dealing with this. How much will that loom over the conversation that they're going to be having in the conclave, do you think?

Shaun: 1:07:25

I think it's difficult to say because it's such an enormous issue for certain cardinals and maybe not for others, just depending on kind of where they live. Is this an immediate problem? You probably are worried about that. The president and his you know he had this incredibly draconian attitude towards the drug, the drug trade and executing drug dealers and things, so you're going to have a critique of that. But you're also many of these cardinals are so worried about grinding poverty or relations with Islam, or, you know, pentecostal missionaries, I'm sorry to say, or whatever the issue that they think is facing their church. And then others are going to be like the Germans, are going to be very worried about Russia and very worried about having a coherent Western bloc against Russia and in support of Ukraine, and so I think it depends.

Shaun: 1:08:26

It's very it'd be very difficult for me to anticipate how that would influence the way they're debating about a particular person, but, as I said earlier, I do think someone like Erdo's proximity to, for example, this Singaporean cardinal, cardinal Goh, who's involved in charismatic renewal he's in a part of the church that's growing rapidly. If they think he's the right man spiritually and they think he can handle the administrative apparatus, he understands the abuse crisis. They're probably. They would probably choose him because they think he's the right guy. They wouldn't say, oh no, but we need someone who clearly speaks about liberal democracy or something like that. I do think being a Western cardinal that is seen as in any way complicit with this slide to kind of right wing populism or even authoritarianism, will be would be damning. But would it influence this in a sort of positive way? Who you select? I'm not sure.

Kyle: 1:09:33

yeah is there any? Do you have a sense that there's any? Uh, I don't even know how to ask this. So, like in the, the climax of that film we were just talking about one of the class more than one climax, but like, probably the main one, is when the guy who ends up being selected stands up and gives a kind of unexpected homily, almost in response to a conversation that he wasn't a part of and is speaking. I mean, the implication is he's speaking from the Holy Spirit. Yes, right, he's saying what God would have said in that space. Space, obviously, everything going on politically and in the world, and not even just politically, but the interests of the poor and the interests of the marginalized and the interests of the suffering around the world. That's going to be a huge part of the focus. How much of the focus, and like what are the mechanics to bring this into the conversation, is on who does God want? Yeah, is that?

Kyle: 1:10:27

always mediated through that larger conversation, or is there a real like let's just look around the room and see if the Holy Spirit's pointing at anybody? You know what I mean.

Shaun: 1:10:37

No, I think that there is, insofar as they really are meant to be spending this time getting to know one another. That's the sort of the uncouth way to do. It would be to be seen as campaigning for yourself, of course, although some of them will be. It would be rather if, like Cardinal Blanchard, gave a speech on behalf of Cardinal Whitaker and his amazing work in, you know, in in the rough parts of Milwaukee and on the front lines with gun violence and how his you know, and then people might go, oh okay, this is actually speaking to the particular moment that we're facing and his life witness is coming from the Holy Spirit. Absolutely, you get that.

Shaun: 1:11:17

Cardinal Bergoglio, pope Francis, before he was elected, gave a speech in this sort of lead up diagnosing the problems of the church, which is a very normal thing to do, to say, well, what are we actually facing, and sort of kind of what your agenda is is seen as important, or here's the problems facing the church and we need Cardinal Ratzinger because he's such a clear, good theologian, or whatever you say. So Pope Francis apparently gave this short, this speech that diagnosed the problems correctly, according to many present, and it was the most succinct and a lot of people were really impressed by that and they said, okay, this is a man who is decisive and who gets it. And in light of all the things the abuse crisis, the financial problems in the Vatican God is calling us to sort of repent of these problems and we need to be serious about electing a man who will help us solve them. I think many of the cardinals who voted for Francis saw him as a very concrete reformer. Some of them came either already or came to appreciate his theological agenda, but I think the initial push was here's a guy who gets the rut that we're in and is a plain speaking, tough man that can help us get out of it. I think that was pretty much what happened. So yes is the answer. It can happen, perhaps not in quite as like this is my beloved son way like as it happened in concord, but I think these are.

Shaun: 1:12:42

I think some of these men are cynical and greedy and disgusting people, but many of them are good and holy people who are trying to do the right thing and they're looking for, they want to vote for someone who they believe is chosen by God and they, you know they don't understand that in the sense, of God chooses the Pope and not the cardinals. They believe their ministry is to make an informed decision, but that it's in the spirit and and uh, and that it's someone who's kind of, whose life and trajectory is kind of with the zeitgeist of what the holy spirit is doing in this moment. They definitely believe that. I would say the the majority of them, anyway. I saw a funny thing on twitter that was like I don't understand, where are the vaguely evil looking european cardinals? I feel like there's be like I've only seen one and there should be like 40. It's like Pope Francis has really changed things and I don't like it. All these smiling.

Kyle: 1:13:39

It was so funny. Yeah, not nearly sinister enough. Sean, it's always a huge pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for your perspective here.

Randy: 1:13:47

Yeah, it was great. Thanks for listening to A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar. We hope you're enjoying these conversations.

Randy: 1:14:09

Help us continue to create compelling content and reach a wider audience by supporting us at patreoncom. Slash, a pastor and a philosopher.

Randy: 1:14:14

We can get bonus content, extra perks and a general feeling of being a good person.

Kyle: 1:14:18

Also, please rate and review the show in Apple, spotify or wherever you listen. These help new people discover the show and we may even read your review in a future episode.

Randy: 1:14:26

If anything we said pissed you off, or if you just have a question you'd like us to answer, send us an email at pastorandphilosopher at gmailcom.

Kyle: 1:14:34

Find us on social media at at ppwbpodcast, and find transcripts and links to all of our episodes at pastorandphilosopherbuzzsproutcom. See you next time Cheers.