We Need to Talk About It

This is a conversation we've been avoiding: how are we doing now that Donald Trump is president again? As we had a break between interviews, we decided to try to unpack how we're feeling, what we're doing, what we've learned about ourselves, and what we're worried and hopeful about.

This is an unusually impromptu and unpolished conversation for us. We didn't plan much and the emotions and the thoughts are raw and relatively unprocessed. We hope that resonates, but if it doesn't, we get it. We'd love to hear from you about what we got wrong (or right). We just needed to take a moment to process out loud together and we hope that it helps some of you start to do the same if you're experiencing similar confusion and grief.

Some highlights:

• Randy shares the heartbreaking moment he realized he could no longer honestly tell his daughter she could become anything, revealing how political outcomes can alter our beliefs about what's possible for us.
• Kyle brings some philosophical perspective, arguing that meaningful progress requires examining the origins of our beliefs and taking ownership of our values.
• Elliot considers how to focus on local impact when national politics feels overwhelming.
• Randy raises a question that haunts many of us: why did over 77 million Americans vote for Trump?

We dig into the currents of fear, anger, and disillusionment driving our nation, touching on liberal blind spots, conservative anxieties, and our collective failure to listen across difference. We also consider whether this moment is a temporary setback in history's arc toward justice or something more permanent, and where it leaves our senses of patriotism.

CONTENT NOTE: This episode contains profanity. (How could it not?)

=====

Want to support us?

The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.

If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.

Other important info:

• Rate & review us on Apple & Spotify
• Follow us on social media at @PPWBPodcast
• Watch & comment on YouTube
• Email us at pastorandphilosopher@gmail.com

Cheers!

Chapters

• 0:00 Breaking the Post-Election Silence
• 4:15 Privilege and Avoiding Political Discussion
• 10:50 The Mental Toll of Election Results
• 17:39 Self-Examination and Political Choices
• 31:25 Understanding Trump Voter Motivations
• 46:55 American Identity in a New Era
• 1:07:30 Finding Hope Despite Political Reality

Transcript

Randy: 0:06

I'm Randy, the pastor, half of the podcast, and my friend Kyle's a philosopher. This podcast hosts conversations at the intersection of philosophy, theology and spirituality.

Kyle: 0:15

We also invite experts to join us, making public a space that we've often enjoyed off-air, around the proverbial table with a good drink in the back corner of a dark pub.

Randy: 0:24

Thanks for joining us and welcome to A Pastor and a Philosopher. Walk into a Bar, friends. This is a conversation that we have been kind of putting off, I think, for some time now, and it's a conversation that we've been thinking about and that's been kind of just incubating inside of us since the first Tuesday of November 2024. We're going to have a conversation about what happened in our country. We're going to have a conversation about President Trump and all the things that he's doing, all the things that we're feeling. What is our response to it? We're just going to have a conversation. Don't know how much of it is going to be just an absolute dumping of emotions. I don't know if there's going to be tears or anger or what's going to come out here, but it feels like many of us just need to process, and I think the three of us are included in that, wouldn't you say?

Kyle: 1:23

Yeah, I think that's right. The last time we talked about politics, if I recall correctly, was with Brian McLaren at Theology Beer Camp, and we ended that conversation by asking him it's a week after the election. Trump has won.

Randy: 1:41

Let's pretend.

Kyle: 1:41

Right, let's just pretend just in case, Because at that time none of us thought it was real. Well, we knew it was possible and we were all scared of it in a way, but it didn't click for me until literally when it really became clear that it was done, that it was over, that it was going to be called.

Kyle: 2:03

Suddenly I realized that I never believed we could lose. I believed it cognitively but I never felt it. Because at that moment I felt like deep disappointment which wouldn't have made sense if I didn't think it was all going to be fine. And it was not all fine and we haven haven't touched it since. We haven't talked about it. I haven't talked about it with anybody. Is that right beyond a couple of texts to some close friends?

Kyle: 2:34

that didn't go very far because nobody wanted to talk about it. Um. So yeah, we'll see how this goes and and really it's, it's not just uh, who knows what this conversation will end up being, but it's not like let's complain about the politics. I think it's a check in how are we doing, how are you coping, what's going on in your life, what can we learn from this moment? That might apply more broadly than just us. That's how I'm approaching it. So it's kind of Elliot's idea to jump in. So I don't know if you want to say anything'm approaching it. So it's kind of elliot's idea to to jump in. So I don't know if you want to say anything, but I think it's something we need to get off our chest at least. Yeah, I.

Elliot: 3:11

I think it's it is. I do feel like I've been avoiding it too. And it's not that it hasn't, um. It's not that there's not a lot to say, it's just that it's all been said so many times that the exhaustion of um expressing how we've been surprised by this guy so many times, how could he possibly surprise us again? And yet he did like that's, that's an old conversation, um feeling frustrated by the evangelical right or by the tone of our media and the partisan politics, like all of it's been said so many times that I've just had the same like deep disappointment, but also there's just nothing left to say about it. It's like oh yeah, here we are.

Randy: 4:02

Yeah, and I've been resistant to talk about it because of who we are, the fact that we're three white, straight cis dudes. We are not the kind of people that I've been wanting to listen to these last six months. Soon after the like, right after day after the election, my posture was I just want to listen to women in my life. I want to listen to minorities in my life. I want to listen to LGBTQ people in my life. I want to listen to the marginalized people who are going to be affected in real ways by this administration. Those are the people that I wanted to listen to and I still do. I still want to just listen to those voices. I want to hear what they're feeling and what they're thinking and the fear inside of them and the dread and all the things.

Randy: 4:54

I want to kind of be more silent, which is ironic as I'm talking into a microphone on a podcast that's, you know, going on to the world. But I think it's we've just acknowledged collectively it's time for us to talk about this you know we're going to talk about it more with other people as well but for us to process together with you listeners. I'm sure that many of you are in the very same position we are. That it's just. It feels like it needs to be talked about, but we don't know how to do it. We don't know if we have the energy for it, don't know if I have the bandwidth to sit through a conversation like this.

Randy: 5:25

I'm feeling that as you're saying it Right right and that's real. I think we can acknowledge it. But I think we'll find out by the end of this conversation how we all feel about it, right?

Kyle: 5:36

And I don't even know what to say. We're going to say some stuff, but we don't come into a topic without having prepared something that we think is valuable to contribute. But about this I just feel really unequipped. I have some thoughts from some philosophical history that we'll get to, but for the most part I'm with you, man. I just want to listen to other people and I don't even want to do that much if I'm honest, because it's just fucking exhausting.

Randy: 6:19

Yep, yeah, I mean, I feel like that's part of the strategy of the administration is just to exhaust us and get us to the point where we just don't resist much anymore, to be honest with you, and if that's the case it's working. Um, I'm also just exhausted by the last eight years you know, nine years plus um of just different kinds of political campaigns. It seems like we're just never, never done with them. Whether trump's in office or not, his voice is so loud, his, um, what he brings to the, to the zeitgeist of our nation, is just so much that I feel like my shock absorbers are just. I'm just done with it. I can't deal with it. I have a hard time.

Randy: 6:49

Similarly to you, elliot, my consumption of social media is much, much different. I haven't been on Twitter since the election. As a matter of fact, I've been on Twitter just to look at sports things, when there's a rumor going around about my Wisconsin sports teams, but that is it. I can't deal with the toxicity. I can't deal with the toxic masculinity out there. I can't deal with the Christians who are supporting this person and I can't deal with the just intense debates anymore. I can't deal with it on social media. Facebook is actually. I ran from Facebook to Twitter and now I'm doing the opposite, and I'm not really not on Facebook much anymore either. I just can't deal with it on social media. Facebook is actually. I ran from Facebook to Twitter and now I'm doing the opposite.

Elliot: 7:25

And I'm really not.

Randy: 7:26

I'm not really not on Facebook much anymore either. I just can't do social media. In this moment that we find ourselves in, even my news consumption is very, very different. I want to stay in touch. I want to stay in tune. I want to know what's going on, particularly for the sake of the marginalized in my life and the marginalized in our world, because I think that's important.

Randy: 7:44

I think I'm in a role that I need to stay in touch with what's happening so that I can speak into it in some meaningful way, in some way shape or form.

Randy: 7:53

But that's the reason that I check in, because, other than that, I want to just hunker down with my family and with the people around me and just try to ignore all the noise for the next four years and see if we can be unaffected by it, which is a really white privilege male thing to say right, I can hunker down, I can ignore the media, I can choose to get off social media and have my life affected by very little at the moment. Man, I hope it stays that way. And by man, I hope it stays that way. I just mean I hope we don't go into a depression or a recession or you know people left and right don't lose their jobs because of the tariffs that are happening like literally going into effect, I think, tomorrow. I hope it stays that way. But our privilege isolates us from a lot of the shit that's going on in the world and that's again. It's just another reason why I'm just hesitant to talk too much about it, but again I think we do need to.

Elliot: 8:53

What you're saying has to be said and you should keep saying it, Like, bring it up. It's kind of the footnote on every other thing that we would say. But yet all of those other things still like they, they need to be said, they're still real. Um, the two can, those, those can coexist, yeah.

Randy: 9:13

Yeah, I agree. So let's let's get into it. Um, I'd like to just hear how, how, all three of us, what has been our response? Um, what is? Where are you right now in regard to the politics of the usa?

Kyle: 9:28

yeah, um, my response has been to check out, uh, and I feel pretty conflicted about it. Um, I voted. That's the one constructive thing that I did. We had a very important election recently in Wisconsin. You did. And I voted and it went it shockingly. I had given up any hope of any good thing happening in the public sphere.

Elliot: 9:54

Not because it was unlikely, but just because it never goes right.

Kyle: 9:58

Yes, yes, my hopes have been dashed too many times, but also it seemed unlikely to me, but we won. It was amazing, in fact, everyone I voted for won. The referendum I voted against passed, unfortunately, but otherwise it went okay and that is the one constructive thing that I've done since.

Randy: 10:16

And Elon dumped millions of dollars into that Wisconsin State Supreme Court race.

Kyle: 10:20

He literally gave away. If you're not in Wisconsin, this is going to sound absurd to you. Court race he literally gave away. If you're not in Wisconsin, this is going to sound absurd to you. Maybe you heard about it. He came to Wisconsin and gave away $2 million checks to rando people for voting his way essentially, that's what it came down to.

Randy: 10:35

Which he did in the presidential election controversially. But yeah, he came and did that locally for the state Supreme Court race, which didn't go his way. It's interesting to me that there seems to be a quickly happening falling out between Trump and his camp and Elon. But anyways, back to you, Kyle, Back to you.

Kyle: 10:52

Kyle, one of the very few things I've posted on social media was a joke. What if we all just started referring to Trump as Elon's bitch and really committed to the bit publicly right? It would take all the journalists to get on board, but I bet we could sour that relationship in like a week, if we really committed to that, because he could not take that.

Elliot: 11:14

Yeah, I mean between your followers. I've got like 250 followers, see.

Randy: 11:20

this is why we should not be having this conversation. We turn into jokes Three white dudes talking about jokes. So you voted. That's what you did, consequentially, right in the last six months or so.

Kyle: 11:32

Outside of that, I work, I play with my kids, I watch television. Maybe we can, at the end of this, to decompress, talk about the media. That has been a helpful or meaningful distraction, because there's been a lot of that for me recently. But yeah, I haven't talked about it. It's just honestly been bottled up in there, and I've only recently started listening to any news media again and only in chunks and only when it seems dire like I need to know about this and it will directly affect me and in some cases recently, some things very well may directly affect me.

Randy: 12:11

So I'm really anxious, so that vote that you cast last week was very well informed then. Huh, Sorry, another joke.

Kyle: 12:19

Although we're in this weird political time where you don't. I'm a big proponent of being informed, especially about something as consequential as an election, but it does not take much to be sufficiently informed at this moment.

Randy: 12:32

I mean how many of us literally vote every, occasionally or regularly. How many people vote based on what yard sign your neighbor has, because you know where your neighbor sits. You know I mean whatever.

Kyle: 12:44

Yeah, but no, like, how am I doing? I'm not good man, not good. And I I know enough philosophical history to know the reasons. I know what to do like. I know what to do with my emotions. I know what to do with my thoughts. I know and I'm going to suggest some of that later, very hypocritically, but like I'm more panicked than I should be, I'm distracted and I'm not doing much of use. So that's where I'm at. How are you guys?

Randy: 13:23

How are we doing? I'm doing fine. I'm overwhelmed by the moment. I really want to tune out completely. I really want to try to bury my head in the sand, but I can't do it.

Randy: 13:40

I tell you, driving my daughter to school the day after the election in our conversation was it was just a terrible feeling, more than just Trump winning but Kamala losing and getting excited for our first female president and what that means for our nation, what that means for women, what that means for my daughter. It was the first morning I woke up since I can remember since my daughter's been alive, really that I thought I woke up and I was just like I don't think I can honestly look at my daughter in the face and tell her she can do whatever she wants. I don't think we live in that world yet. I lived in this fantasy world where I thought women could do anything, they want, anything that men can do. Women can do and I think they can. They have the ability and can do it better than men many things, but I don't think our world, our nation, is ready for a female president. In that, that grieves me deeply. To say it deeply grieves me. I don't think if we didn't have Obama, I don't know what I'd be thinking about a person of color being in the White House anytime soon, and I don't know what I think about that. There's just a lot of things that really, really like we're talking about things now that are triggering me. We're talking about things because I haven't really thought about it in those depths since soon after the election, because I just let myself go there.

Randy: 15:15

I feel like it was part of the grieving process that's lasted months trying to figure this out, trying to make sense of what happened and to me there's a number of things that I've been asking and we're going to get into some of them. But the big question that I've been asking myself and just looking rhetorically at our country, at our nation, is I'm not surprised that there's Donald Trump's in our, in our nation, in our world. That's not surprising. There's always going to be really um, misogynistic, racist, you know, just terrible people and terrible people who are really loud and really, you know, have a lot of money, all the things.

Randy: 15:59

The thing that that really really grieves me and that I want to spend some time thinking about is the fact that more than 77 million Americans voted for Donald Trump and JD Vance, the fact that more than 77 million Americans voted for Project 2025. The thing that scares me is that, to me, trump isn't doing anything that he didn't say he would do. Like, everything that he's doing in these last you know, since late January, in these last couple of months, is exactly what he said he would do, and that's the crazy thing to me is that we had over 77 million people in our country, the second most. He got, the second most votes of any president in history. That's crazy.

Kyle: 16:47

That's the scary thing to me and that's the question I want to ask, second most after Joe Biden. After Joe Biden, make it make sense. Make it make sense.

Randy: 16:56

But those are the questions that I want to ask is how did this happen and why did over 77 million people vote for a person like Trump and a ticket like Trump Vance? I mean, we remember the Madison Square Garden rally right before the election and the terrible things that were said. I mean we remember the things that they said about Haitian immigrants in Ohio. There was just an unending amount of vile things coming from a platform that over 77 million Americans voted for. That, to me, is the nut we have to crack. That, to me, is the million dollar, the billion dollar question is why did that happen and how do we avoid that again? And how do we start listening to a bunch of people who seem to be really pissed off right now and I'm not talking about Kamala voters, I'm not talking about the anti-Trump crowd. I'm talking about the 77 plus million Americans who voted for that ticket.

Randy: 17:53

There's something going on that I think many of us, especially on the Democratic side, are missing, and I'd that's what worries me. If we keep missing it, if we keep just getting angry at each other, if we keep blaming one another, if we keep kind of scapegoating one another, we're going especially the Democratic side is going to miss the punchline. We're going to miss the stuff that the reason why that guy got elected. There's a reason for it, and I'm not talking about the MAGA camp. I'm not talking about the ones who are just like in a cult following, if we can be honest. I'm talking about the ones who, like I know a couple people, I've talked to a couple people since the election people who I think are reasonable, people who are, I know, are smart, people, who I respect their opinion and they voted for trump.

Randy: 18:41

You know I don't know tons of them, but I know some enough to make me think why and how did you get to that point? And I think they already regret it, some of them. But if you look at his approval ratings, they're not terrible. They're not terrible at all. It's shocking how unterrible they are, all the stuff that he's doing. So that, for me, is possibly the most important question is why did so many people vote for him? Why did a good number of black men vote for him? Why did a good number of Latinos vote for him? Why did a good number of people that I would never imagine in a million years voting for him vote for him? Those are important questions I think that the Democrats and all of us need to figure out important questions I think that the Democrats and all of us need to figure out.

Elliot: 19:33

Yeah, I think for me what this did is it did shake out some things that I am not sad to see go in myself. So, looking at the lead up to the election, I think all of us were kind of on on the edge of our seats, like very tuned in, but I think I let in that uh media or political commentary as entertainment like a little bit too much to where the, the outrage becomes addictive. Um, it's, you know. You almost start to look forward to the next ludicrous thing that somebody's going to say, because then we can react that much, much harder. So that's something that, after the election, I like, in reflecting, is like that's I'm done with, done with that, and I still so. Now I like go and enjoy all sorts of true crime series and stuff like that that are equally like unhealthy. I'm not saying I'm in a better spot.

Elliot: 20:27

I'm just saying the political theater as entertainment is, yeah, I it's. I think it's good to see that go.

Randy: 20:35

There's no way. True crime podcasts are equally unhealthy to outrage porn of the media right now.

Elliot: 20:42

That's probably true. I I've heard, I've read therapists that disagree, but okay. So then there's the just that, like angst at the uncontrollable things. Like me sitting in you know the Midwest, like nobody knows my name, I don't actually have any control over these things and yet I'm going to get so tied around them that I might spend my life energy on these things instead of on controlling the things that I where the impact, where I can actually have, and I don't want to fall into the camp of like, well, god's still on his throne, no, like eternal perspective, whatever it's, it's not that.

Elliot: 21:20

But I, I only have one life, we only have one life, and is that going to be spent in futility and anger at things that, yeah, we just can't touch, or is there a better place to put that? And so for me, that's like, I guess, just by default, like that's not. It's not like now, these are normal, normal pursuits. It's just like well, okay, back now to what's in front of me, my, my family, my work, um, and that that is a lot of privilege, like you said, to be able to settle back into that.

Elliot: 21:55

But to try to find the, the meaning in those things, like there's obviously a something that's going on in the world where, where words don't mean anything, where you can call, uh, you can drive the global economy off a cliff, and call that liberation day, and like, or, or say you know, he says he has a 70 approval rating, or just making up all sorts of like words don't matter so so if that's the reality and and kind of the, the broader discourse, what does that mean for how I'm raising my children and how they're going to participate in society, how I'll participate, um, even just basic stuff like I, I don't have to deal with a lot of the like, the, the fear that somebody with darker skin might feel around their, say, their immigration status or even their perceived immigration status, like I, uh, I work at like a painting company and so, like a lot of the people that I work alongside are hispanic and in in my role, I can go out and if I do my job well and I sell these paint jobs, then I I can like literally employ dozens of painters to to come and have have that piece of stability in their lives.

Elliot: 23:10

That's something I can actually control do my, do my job well and that's that feels meaningful. So, trying to just find those things that I I didn't necessarily link to meaning before, in the same ways, it's it's helpful to just even kind of process that out and be like, yeah, this is definitely where I'm supposed to be right now.

Randy: 23:29

Yep. That being said, how are you, how are we making sense of what's happening in our world, what has happened and what is happening, the conversations? Are you able to make sense of it? Or are you tuning out and kind of just focusing on what's right in front of you and you know, like the coach speak, controlling the controllables. Are we just tuning out or are we able to, to begin trying to make sense of this? Um?

Kyle: 23:59

yeah.

Randy: 24:00

What are you doing, Kyle?

Kyle: 24:01

I've, I've stopped trying to make sense of it. I feel like we did that for eight years. We never stopped, and then the attempt is exhausting to me. Some of my favorite podcasters are still going at it and they're brilliant insight, you know, and at some point it just feels to me like they're they're explaining what we've known. I mean, it's obvious what happened, like the.

Kyle: 24:31

The explanation is complicated but it's not hard to see in some ways Like and I don't see the value anymore or at least the value to me, but even kind of the value in a more general sense of trying to find an explanation. We just got to find a way forward, like what you were describing of let's just make sure this doesn't happen again. How can we talk to the people who are right next to us, who contributed to it's happening, in a way to build some kind of commonality that might help prevent it in the future? But even even trying to prevent it's not really on my radar anymore. I feel very much like my role in this is tiny and I need to figure out a way to bring my perspective in line with my actual abilities.

Kyle: 25:20

I need to bring my will in line with my scope of action, which is very much what Elliot was just describing. You can employ those people. That's a thing that you can do and that's a really good thing. And I can say certain things to my kids and I can make sure that the educational frameworks I'm designing have a certain measure of inclusivity to them, and I can treat my coworkers in a particular way, and we can do stuff on this. We can say stuff on this podcast. You know, you have to find the things that I can do and then actually do them. Epictetus very famously said something along the lines of the only way to be happy is to stop worrying about things that are beyond your control, beyond the power of your will which might sound to you like you don't know anything about epictetus or stoicism.

Kyle: 26:09

It might sound to you like one of those stupid, privileged white dude things to say, right, um, but he was not. He was privileged in some ways, but he was also a slave. So you know, like he knew what he was talking about, and and people from all walks of life through centuries have found wisdom in that that approach. You have to realize that the only thing that you actually can control is your reactions, it's your choices, and this is like easy philosophy, but it's like real fucking life too. And if you do therapy which I probably should do you're going to eventually learn some kind of similar too. Um, and if you do therapy which I probably should do you're going to eventually learn some kind of similar lessons Like, um, lots of, lots of very well empirically validated therapeutic practices are based on similar basic ideas, which is that I have to somehow bring into line the things that I can meaningfully accomplish with the things that I think are valuable and important and give me joy and happiness and meaning to my life. And so I'm trying to figure that out and I'm so far not doing great.

Kyle: 27:16

It probably doesn't mean getting off of social media, because social media trains us to think in global terms and in urgent terms.

Kyle: 27:24

We've talked about this before. We talked about it with Teen Win, who we recently re-released that episode, which was a thing we could do. We could re-release that episode and we did right. But, like, social media is like, just so good at getting you to think that you have power that you don't have and that the way that you can exercise that power is to post and post, and post and post, and like and like, and like and like and dislike and dislike, and that's like a real exercise of your will. Imagine that, like 20 years ago, nobody thought that that someday everybody in the world would act like their primary for most of us means of public action is posting pithy statements and then liking or disliking them, and that they thought that that was meaningful action in the world. We think that was absurd, and yet that's our practice, that's our lived experience. Now that has to stop and it stops with individuals choosing to stop it, to give it up.

Kyle: 28:29

So that's the thing I can do. I can stop that bullshit. I can encourage others to stop Stop using X.

Randy: 28:34

Do it If you're listening to this, stop. Yeah, I mean that's another reason why I got off of X is just how can I support Elon Musk, like how can I do that in any way, shape or form? I I haven't gotten past that, so I haven't reengaged on anything. And I want to tell you, man, my life is so much better without Twitter, like it's just qualitative.

Elliot: 28:56

Call it Twitter. How's that for effective protest? Yeah.

Randy: 29:01

Yes, no, I mean um. Yes, no, I mean whatever start. Sorry, I'm not going to go down the social media ranting road, I don't want to be a parent.

Elliot: 29:09

Social media like it's these tiny ideas, usually in combat of some other tiny idea, and maybe the thing that's so toxic about it is like we need to zoom out and see. Like you ask why, how are we making sense of what happened? Like this is this is fear. What happens when fear permeates and is frothed up by a strong man, I mean, but but by by a whole, a whole culture that led to that strong like there's, and and that has its roots deep in fear-based religion. But but now, where we, where we stand, it's the fear of the, the fear of the other, the fear of poverty, the fear of having having taken what we think is ours.

Elliot: 30:00

Like all all that fear is what made it so that somebody who's otherwise rational could justify to themselves that they're voting for trump in order to protect their, their family, economy, or that that's just. That's the only the only rational I can think of. Like that, that kind of like broadly explains what got us where we are. Uh, to bring that back to social media, like trying to just little, like firefight, whack-a-mole, these like little ideas, these little false claims that are made on a daily basis, feels really fraught, whereas zooming out and trying to live a life that counteracts fear and brings something different and something that fear can't withstand. That feels like the only real way to engage meaningfully right now, in whatever form that takes.

Kyle: 30:55

Randy, you were talking about grief a little bit earlier. Now Elliot's talking about fear, and it reminded me election night. One of the things I texted my friend was this quote from CS Lewis, which you might be familiar with if you're post-evangelical, like we are, and if you've ever lost anybody. He wrote this book called A Grief Observed about the passing of his wife, and one of the most powerful things in it is he says nobody ever told me how much grief feels like fear Phenomenally they're almost the same and, having lost a couple of people close to me and having been scared now for a few months, that seems right.

Kyle: 31:32

They feel very much the same and I can totally imagine voting on that basis. Probably I did vote on that basis Like I had other reasons too. It wasn't the primary motivating one, but like it was one of them. And I've got no judgment. For people who are afraid, you know I get it, but you have to analyze the basis of your fears, of all of your emotions. This is another thing the Stoics taught us. You can get to the bottom of that. It takes practice and it's hard, but it's possible. And you can see if those fears are justified, if they're reasonable, if they're the sort of thing that ought to motivate your action. You can actually control that stuff and you can bend it towards the good, your good and the good of others.

Kyle: 32:20

And I don't for a minute think those 77 million people don't care about the common good. They think they're voting for the. They think they're pursuing it. Yes, right, they have a particular vision of what it is and who it encompasses, yep, and all of that can be examined. If anything, this makes me want to do this podcast more because people need to read some fucking philosophy, right, they need to examine this shit. This is what we were talking with, um. This is what we were talking with our friend Aaron Simmons about, right? This, uh, the lived aspect of examining your life. This is the only way we get out of something like this. Leave it to the philosopher to say philosophy is the only thing that can save us.

Kyle: 33:03

That's not exactly what I mean. I don't mean reading Plato is the only thing that can save us. That's not exactly what I mean. I don't mean reading Plato is the only thing that can save us, but examining your life and figuring out why you're doing this and what actually matters and what do you owe people, if anything. I mean, that's what that's about and that's kind of all I feel like I'm left with at this moment.

Randy: 33:22

So let me just let's not go too far down this rabbit hole, but just for fun examining your life. You know, you said some things after. That is the only thing that'll get us out of this. So you think the people who voted for Trump don't examine their life? You think that that? What do you think? Because I don't think that's the case at all.

Kyle: 33:50

Oh, that's interesting. I'd like to hear some counterexamples. I think almost nobody examines their life, trump voter or otherwise, and I don't think I'm not saying that it's guaranteed that if you do examine your life, you will end up in place X and that that place will then guarantee that you vote a particular way. I don't think that at all, but most of the people I know who voted in that direction, and also most of the people I know who voted in the other direction, have not carefully examined their motivations for that, and they're receiving their reasons from outside. They haven't become their own reasons.

Kyle: 34:35

I think that in itself is a bad thing. I think that would be enough to motivate some self-examination, even if the results of it weren't harming millions and millions of people, which it is, yeah, but I think I'm willing to go on record and say that it would be very difficult to thoroughly examine your life in accordance with any kind of universalizable principles which maybe I should say more about what that means and end in a place where you think voting for someone like Donald Trump is a reasonable position to hold and consistent with any defensible vision of the common good. Yeah, I'm willing to say that.

Randy: 35:20

Okay, I just don't think it's that simple. I mean I hear what you're saying and I don't completely disagree. It's that simple. I mean I hear what you're saying and I don't, like, completely disagree. I just think that he's tapping into something that is in the water of waters that we don't swim in for one, but he's tapping into some real speaking of fear. He's tapping into fear and anger in just a shocking amount of Americans that many people on the left are not considering. I think he's tapped into something that a bunch of people have felt for a long time and haven't known how to process it. They probably still don't, because their way of processing it is voting for somebody like Trump Now that sounds so condescending and I don't mean to at all.

Randy: 36:08

Voting for somebody like Trump Now that sounds so condescending and I don't mean to at all. But I do think that there's a bunch of Americans who are more frustrated with the way things are than we think, that are angrier with the way our nation, where our nation, has gotten to than we think, who are more dissatisfied with the way the world is and the way the world is moving than we think, who feel completely left behind, who feel irrelevant in many ways, and I think all of that speaks to like he's just tapping into something that is deep within them, even though I don't think it's a constructive place, I don't think it's like he's tapping into it in a constructive way. I just think he's the only one who they feel like listens to them. He's the only one that resonates with their anger, with their fear, with their feeling of being left behind by the modern American world that we live in. Do you know what I mean?

Randy: 37:02

And I think that's part of the problem is, I think people on our side are not legitimizing that experience the way we should be. Perhaps I think we're not, um, we're not empathizing with a bunch of americans who are motivated by fear, who are motivated by anger, who are motivated by um, the world moving in places that they don, that they don't see themselves going or being able to go, or the world leaving them behind. Rural Americans, working class Americans, americans without higher education that's a ton of people that used to be who Democrats were right, that used to be really, really, the backbone of the Democratic Party. It has swung the opposite way now and I think insinuating that people aren't reflect, self-reflective enough, is just not going to help us.

Kyle: 37:58

and I that's strong, but tell me, tell me what your thoughts are there why does it have, I don't know that the expression of it needs to help us for it to. If a thing is true, I clearly think this thing is true. Obviously, you should say true things in a careful and measured way, right.

Kyle: 38:21

And if and if you're aiming at political ends, you have to be very careful about whether you say true things at all and, if so, in what way you say true things at all and, if so, in what way you say them so that your message actually achieves the goals that you want, which is why a lot of political theorists think it's totally fine to lie, but the thing that I said, I think it's true, I don't. I think it is extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible, to justify in an evidential sense.

Elliot: 38:52

Yeah, that's just not how people the kind of sense that would convince other people.

Kyle: 38:56

That's not how people think, though or vote Like evidential. No, but we're not talking about.

Elliot: 39:02

Like any of that, rationalism isn't part of it. At the point where you find somebody for whom a trans athlete is a non-negotiable issue, yeah, that's the only issue that you now need to bring that person to the polls in your favor, right.

Kyle: 39:21

Yeah, we we can't make meaningful like we can make progress in the sense that we replace one kind of peer pressure with another, and that's what it seems to me, that's what a lot of folks are trying to do.

Randy: 39:40

Okay.

Kyle: 39:42

But if you want something deeper than that, if you want something more profound than that, that person has to examine why that's the thing for them and figure out if it's motivated by an actual concern for gender and actual belief, that's grounded in something that there is only two ways to be sexual, or if it's something else. And it's to that person's credit to figure that out. If they're being lied to or if they're being motivated by something other than what they think they're being motivated by, it's to their own good, their own interest, to figure that out. And I'm saying until more people are willing to take on that kind of project, this can help. That's what I'm saying.

Kyle: 40:30

These skills, these ancient skills-.

Randy: 40:32

I hear you, yeah, and I agree.

Kyle: 40:33

Can actually move the dial a little bit in a long-term sense. In fact, I think these are the things that have moved the dial historically. I don't think we got to the place where we were able to elect a black man to president of the United States because of swings in public opinion rooted in peer pressure. I think it was more than that. I don't think that the entire movement of women's liberation up to where it's gotten to, or racial reconciliation up to where it's gotten to, or LGBTQ inclusion up to where it's gotten to, I don't think any of that is merely, like you know, history swinging back and forth based on, you know, social whims or something. I think that's real. I believe in real progress. I make progressive, which means I think there is a truth to be known and values that are objective, that society can move towards and away from, and that the thing that pushes that one of the things is self-examination. It is serious ethical investment. It is a kind of recognition that the common good is more important than the individual good.

Elliot: 41:43

This is kind of where religion enters the conversation again. For most people, though, because that's for many going to be like self-reflection, trying to figure out what my own motivations are, if I have a certain certain ethic or a certain way of interpreting the scripture. So now I don't have the option to have opinions on this, because the Bible says male and female, he created them, and like that says it. It's right there, black and white. So that's what I so. That that's, I think, where the conversation ends for so many, uh, probably one of the main things that holds back like it's. It's not like there is a subset of the population who maybe hasn't thought through what their motivations are and could journey down that path, but I would, I'd suggest, for most of the people who are sitting in that position, the reason they can't go down that path is like there's there's like an actual blockade in their way, and that would be their interpretation of scripture.

Kyle: 42:43

I can only speak for myself primarily, but one of the things that radicalized me with respect to the Bible was realizing that everything I thought about the Bible was just what I thought about the Bible. I don't know if that makes sense, yeah. Yeah, the kind of self-examination that I'm talking about should, and it's hard, okay, it takes time, it's, it's not fun and you have to do it with other people. So I understand if you never get to this place, but it should lead you, whoever you are, to a recognition of whether your values are your values or not. You have to take some kind of ownership of them.

Kyle: 43:27

And if I come to a place where I realize I don't I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I realize that I'm not and I realize that the values that are the most important values to me are not mine, they were given to me, they came from somewhere else, they came from that book that I now realize I don't understand really, or they came from those people telling me what that book said, like that is the seed of radicalization, this isn't my belief, or or I get to decide now if it is, and it's just if you're in that position and it might seem like a tiny shift. Right, I might still think I believe all the same stuff, but I've shifted now to realizing that those beliefs came from somewhere. They had their origin in something other than my conviction. And now I'm at the pole and I have an option in front of me. I think my orientation to that choice is significantly different now, even with that tiny shift.

Elliot: 44:26

That doesn't seem like a tiny shift. That's like for a lot of people. That would be like the way that that would be expressed in the evangelical.

Randy: 44:33

Yeah.

Elliot: 44:33

Like that's coming out from under the authority of scripture is how that would be deemed. And now I'm going to put myself in authority over scripture Like I could. I can.

Kyle: 44:41

Right, but we know how that goes, right. Right, if you make that tiny shift and it's honest for you, and then that's what you come up against when you tell your best friend and your closest allies about it, that you're out of the authority of scripture. The radicalization is unstoppable now.

Elliot: 44:55

Well, I actually find this twist of the conversation a little bit. I'm enjoying this because add this to the list of things that can be done about it. Yes, we're going to focus on the things that are right in front of us and if I think about the things that could make the most impact in my relationships, think about my family relationships as, like that, that's the thing on my mind. If I can, if I can say or demonstrate something that that would allow somebody to see that that's a shift that could be made, that's a huge impact that I can have on my world, that does move the needle here. It's like a different kind of evangelicalism.

Kyle: 45:37

A humble kind right, that's what we're talking about. Really. It's a tiny wedge of humility.

Randy: 45:43

Yeah, I don't disagree with you. I think you're correct about the virtues of self-examination and self-awareness in regard to the information that we have and the beliefs that we have and the ways that we think and all that. I completely agree with you, and I don't think that you were intended to, but it seemed to reduce over 77 million Americans to a bunch of unthoughtful, unreflective cult followers, and that is the sentiment that I think is very destructive to this conversation and to our political conversation in our nation in this moment. That's where I'm coming from.

Kyle: 46:31

I don't think those kind of statements are helpful. I don't know if this helps at all, but it's a level of thoughtfulness that does not just malign 77 million people. It maligns all of them Sure, or very nearly all of them Sure, including the three of us.

Elliot: 46:40

To which Kyle responds. I think the number is actually far higher. Yeah, which is fine, but that's a different conversation Again from me and my perspective.

Randy: 46:51

There is a phenomenon happening in our nation. There's a movement that's been happening in our nation that I think many of us have just tried to wash over and just be like ah, it's like the racist underbelly of our country, and if we just get enough kids to vote, or if we could just get enough people of color to vote, or if we just whatever you know have the right candidate on the Democrat side, it's going to be OK, because those are just all the angry uncles, but so my reasoning, though, would necessitate real conversations with the kind of people you're concerned about.

Kyle: 47:21

Like I do not. If I'm interested in examining my life, I do not have the privilege, and, so far as I'm committed to that project, as soon as I give up on the conversations with the working class people who voted for Trump because they've been forgotten or whatever fill in the blank, then I've given up on the project. Right, I have to take those people's perspective seriously, insofar as they're engaging with me in good faith, and insofar as.

Kyle: 47:45

I'm participating in this effort in good faith Yep, big assumption. And if I run into somebody that's not, I don't have to take that seriously anymore. And I think isn't it uncontroversial that when we get specific about what motivates your average Trump voter because another thing examination necessitates is specificity Okay, what am I afraid of? Specifically, name it, who, what policy, what figures, what you know, what is it?

Kyle: 48:18

And a devastating number of folks come down to some kind of what I think the three of us would say are straightforwardly immoral fears. That's just a fact, and pretending that it isn't so that we can start conversations with the other side, is also not helpful, because those conversations have to go somewhere and at some point. If I take up a position that I don't actually think accords with the facts so that I can talk to that person, they're going to realize it somewhere in that conversation and they're going to know that I lied to them, that I pretended to take them seriously in a way that I can't. I can take them seriously as a human being and as someone who is committed to seeing this examination process through, if they actually are, but I can't take somebody seriously who is afraid that the immigrants are stealing their livelihood.

Elliot: 49:13

Why not Killing people? So what would you do?

Kyle: 49:15

Because it's not a fact.

Elliot: 49:17

But how would you engage with that person?

Randy: 49:19

So you can only engage with people who are dealing in fact.

Kyle: 49:22

No, I can't engage in a way that makes it appear that I take that seriously, that that's a worthy route for our conversation. Okay, this is why nobody does real philosophy. Okay, like, the barrier to entry is offensively high and conversations for most people stop before they get started, because if you're going to enter it, you have to put your assumptions up for examination and if they don't accord with the evidence, you have no standing in that conversation. You cannot and should not be taken seriously, and that is fucking rude.

Elliot: 49:59

Like the founder of my discipline was murdered because he pissed people off with that shit.

Randy: 50:04

Who cares? This is great for a philosophical conversation that's going to go nowhere. But I wanted to know about, like, how do we not get a person like this in office again? And if a person doesn't match your good faith expectations or aren't dealing in reality like you hope they are, if we're just going to write everyone off like that, then what are we doing? Like, literally, what are we doing? I don't want to write anyone off.

Kyle: 50:29

I think we have two options. I've tried to articulate one of them, probably not very well, and that's playing the long, like historically long game. Or we try to bend public pressure through self-interest, and that's what politics almost entirely is, and that's to give up on the project to give up on the on the project of what?

Kyle: 50:53

self-examination okay, yeah owning your values make having a meaningful human life yep I'll go that far, like um, maybe the and there are times, believe me, when I think if I had a button that I could push to convince everybody of X without actually needing them to own it, I'd push that fucking button. Or if I was Mark Zuckerberg, would I shudder meta or would I try to use it? Would I try to use its algorithm for the Democratic Party? I'd like to believe that I would shut that shit down. I think that's the right thing to do. I'm willing to defend that. I don't know if I'd do it, you know? Yep, that's the difference I'm talking about.

Randy: 51:41

Yeah, no, I hear you and I think it's a great conversation, it's a noble endeavor, it's what we all should be doing. I completely agree, but to me it's not dealing in reality.

Elliot: 51:53

It's just of no help when talking to your Trumpy neighbor, which?

Randy: 51:56

is a lot of people.

Kyle: 51:59

Yeah, I don't know. I don't have a lot of Trumpy neighbors. That's part of my social privilege, I suppose that's part, well, that I know of. That's part of my social privilege, I suppose. Although we did recently go stay at an Airbnb in one of the tiny towns outside the city and boy, those signs are everywhere. Oh yeah, when you get out there. That's why I thought we were going to lose the election. Actually.

Randy: 52:20

Well, I think we you know scare quotes lost the election, in large part to a bunch of people that will never tell us they're Trump voters. I think, in large part to a bunch of people who are sick of what they're seeing on the left and sick of you know. Well, let me, let me let me use a conversation in particular, like talking to a person who I respect, who I enjoy, who I think is respect, who I enjoy, who I think is and when I say respect, I mean I respect the way they think, I respect most of their conclusions and I think they are a certifiably smart person and they voted for Trump. And our conversation was like why did you get there and how did that happen?

Randy: 53:07

And that person also had some regrets, but also just kind of was a lot more flippant, I would say, about their vote than I'm comfortable with. It was just like well, I didn't like what the left was offering, so I figured, why not, let's give this a shot? Kind of deal which I think a lot of people maybe had. I don't understand it, I don't like it, but I think it's reality in some ways. But what this person told me was that I'm sick of the identity politics on the left. I think they've gone too far. I think we've seen liberal policies run amok and I don't think it's helping our nation and I'm tired of it. That's why I voted for Trump. What do you say to a person like that?

Randy: 53:51

What do we say to a person no, I'm just saying yeah. How do we respond to a person that says, well, okay, so take it less, less away from that person? And more to me, I think liberals are helped get Trump elected. I think liberal policy and liberal idealism and liberal loudmouths and I mean that with great affection for some liberal loudmouths who I enjoy their voice but I think liberal noise turned many Americans off and actually pushed people to a Trumpy sort of place. I think liberals in the Democratic Party, I think the ultra liberals, are a problem.

Randy: 54:37

I was talking to a very high profile progressive Christian friend a couple of weeks ago talking about politics, talking about our nation. I was talking to two high profile people and one of them who has millions of followers on Twitter I won't even say his name because I didn't get permission to say this, you know to state his opinion but he said I think we just need to have Pete Buttigieg and AOC. We need to figure out real quick like let's, let's make those two are like our platform, our candidates, let's figure that out in the next year and then get all the people on the left supporting those two and then boom, they're going to be president. And I was like I think that's the opposite of what we need to do. As much as I would love to see Pete, as much as I love Pete and AOC and what they say and how they say and I know there's some people who are rolling their eyes and there's some whatever To me, going more and more liberal and going more and more to one drastic side is the opposite of what's going to help kind of the Democratic Party at this point. That's going to help the anti-MAGA movement of our nation at this point.

Randy: 55:45

I think a lot of liberalism has just run amok and people are really sick of it and I don't know how to, how to change that, because I do feel like the trans fear is irrational. It's just a. It's a. It's something that I don't even want to talk about because it's so ridiculous to me that some so many people are motivated by this, something that I see as irrelevant but see that doesn't matter to me, like I see it as irrelevant but they don't, and I want to know why. I want to know what's motivating that vote, that vote, and I want to know what's motivating this.

Randy: 56:16

This perspective that says gender identity politics on the left has gotten us nowhere and I don't want any part of it anymore. That's where that's that's, and I don't have an answer to that question. To be honest with you, I'm asking a question of you guys that I'd love to hear some answers from, but I don't have one. I don't have anything good to bring, except for the fact that there's something bigger going on and that's tapped into something that is just like a really quick, easy thing to scratch. I have no idea. I would like to stop talking and hear some smart things from you guys.

Kyle: 56:51

We don't have solutions to that. I can just say that I'll say, perhaps condescendingly I hope not that deep confusion can sit right alongside sincere concern for the good.

Randy: 57:01

Okay.

Kyle: 57:04

I think we'd both know that what your friend expressed there about the identity politics on the left, and maybe there's some reasonable aspects to that. But if you were to drill down to the specific thing, it's more than likely something rooted in some kind of confusion, but it might very well be embedded in a real concern for the good of others. Maybe some fear goes along with that, maybe it doesn't. So I think we've just cycled back to the beginning of the last half hour conversation Like I don't know.

Kyle: 57:41

the way that I would interact with a person like that would be to try, if they were willing to engage, to try to nail down the specifics of what they believe and where it came from, what motivated it and why does that justify, or you think justify, the action that you took and how can I help you see the death a different way? I mean, and if I can't, I can't you know?

Kyle: 58:03

Like, my beliefs about what's required and my hope for getting to it are jarringly out of step with what I can actually accomplish and even my interest in accomplishing it, like in trying, like I need to sincerely love somebody, I think, to do the work required to even have a conversation like that. At this point I have to. I have to see somehow their improvement as my responsibility. There are very few people for whom I I feel, that at this moment. So I don't know what to say about the progressive wing of the party.

Kyle: 58:51

I don't think I have any meaningful contributions to that conversation, except I'll just say that one of the things that does kind of depress me is that when one party is like hunkered down, authoritarian populism based on a set of values that can see its easiest expression by sincerely or not acting on some really confused first principles about what the way the world is, some really confused first principles about what the way the world is, and then you have everybody else trying to form a coalition, millions of possible interpretations of complicated issues, and 95% of them are shoved into one party. How do you build a coalition out of that? You named AOC and Pete Buttigieg. They're wildly different. There are moments in American history where they would not have been in the same party. Not clear that they should be in the same party right now.

Kyle: 1:00:02

And yet your friend, very reasonably, is saying these people have cachet, let's put them up front. Like. I understand the difficulties and I do not envy the people trying to force that into one thing that isn't just reactionary, because that's what lost us the election it was we ran for the whole time on. We're not that guy. Nothing positive to contribute.

Randy: 1:00:26

Yeah.

Kyle: 1:00:28

That can't continue. But what is the solution when you have meaningful, sincere disagreements that go all the way to the bedrock of how you visualize the common good and democracy, and you name it?

Elliot: 1:00:42

Humanity.

Kyle: 1:00:44

Yeah, exactly, humanity itself. And the only thing you have in common which may be enough for the near term, I don't know is trying to minimize the damage in some sense.

Randy: 1:01:02

Yeah, maybe I'm just too idealistic. Maybe it's just a fairy tale to think that we can try to listen enough, try to dial down the rage and dial up the humility and ask real questions of people that we don't like or don't respect their opinions or the way they voted and actually get somewhere. Maybe that's just a fairy tale, but I don't want to give up on it. I don't want to give up on this idea that there's something happening in our nation and if we listen a little bit better, if we actually engage with one another in a more meaningful way, if we actually engage with one another in a more meaningful way, if we empathize and try to put ourselves in one another's shoes and feel what the other is feeling whether it be fear, anger, paranoia, anxiety, whatever that maybe we can get somewhere productive.

Randy: 1:02:09

Maybe we can get somewhere good. Maybe we can get somewhere productive. Maybe we can get somewhere good. Maybe we can have better options. Maybe we can have more people voting for a different kind of politician that I disagree with, but one that I can just go to sleep at night and not feel like I have to give up on this dream that my daughter can do anything she wants, right. Maybe we can get somewhere a little bit better. Maybe that is just not where we are right now. Maybe we are just completely talking over each other and there's no hope for us at the moment. I still don't want to say yes to that, but as I say this out loud into a microphone, it feels dubious at best, right so?

Elliot: 1:02:47

let me ask you guys, where do you find yourselves in terms of your national identity and how has that changed since the election?

Elliot: 1:03:08

Like, I'll say, for me, my pride, like I've been in a really safe, relatively corruption free, highly prosperous pocket of world history. And now maybe we are on a journey to becoming just like everybody else. And and if, like the, if, the American dream is gone and the this, this great experiment, is kind of over, like here we are, as now, just a member of humanity, like we always were, if that's in a different country or if that's in this country, that that starts to feel a lot like other places in the world, it's a sad thing, but is it an inherently bad thing? And and does it? Like you know what I mean? Like my, my identity of, like what it means to be an American has changed. You walk around globally and and what that means that you're an American in the room feels different already. Maybe it's time to own that and to just know that, yeah, this doesn't mean what it used to mean. And so now we move forward.

Kyle: 1:04:26

Yeah, my friend said something very similar when I asked how panicked are you? And his response was just kind of stoic he quoted Candide at me, which was really annoying.

Kyle: 1:04:43

Hate it when they do that the world has always been a shitty place and we might have to just come to terms with being at the end of this remarkably lucky series of decades that is unprecedented in world history. Maybe we're just correcting back to you know what the rest of the world is always and continues to experience, and that's sad, isn't it? But it's a useful historical perspective.

Kyle: 1:05:11

I suppose I don't think it should lead us to give up trying to keep it around and make it better, but yeah, I don't feel like it makes me resent boomers less I mean, if anything, it makes me a little more patriotic because we did that, we were, we achieved that really meaningful window of time.

Randy: 1:05:32

Oh, now you're proud of it, huh.

Kyle: 1:05:35

I mean, it wasn't my accomplishment, obviously, but if anything was going to make me patriotic, it would be watching the folks who have all the reason in the world to not be. Cory Booker is a wonderful example.

Kyle: 1:05:48

That entire speech. That was just. I mean, it wasn't just like the stupid filibuster where you read from the phone book Like it was substantive and researched and powerful. That's the kind of thing that inspires some kind of real patriotism to see somebody that has every reason in the world to hate the country and what it's becoming, but who feels a sense of ownership for it and thinks, no, this is ours, we accomplished this, we don't have to allow it to go to pot. I might actually be more patriarchal than I was the last time we talked about it. I don't know.

Randy: 1:06:30

I like that little wrinkle, that's fun. Yeah, I'm not ready to write the obituary on. You know, america and all it stands for good, bad and ugly and this, you know nice little run that you guys have been talking about. I'm not ready to write the obituary on that at all. Nice little run that you guys have been talking about. I'm not ready to write the obituary on that at all.

Randy: 1:06:51

I remember how it felt when Biden won in 2020. And I don't know if you guys were watching, but when Biden and Harris gave their you know, victory speech, it was COVID. So it was a bunch of cars in attendance, right, not like like actual people, but people sitting on the hoods of their cars and everything. And every time they would say something meaningful, there was a bunch of horns honking and a bunch of flags waving. And I remember getting emotional watching it because I just had this thought of it was this deep feeling of I haven't been proud of that flag in four in in in you know four years and, um, I kind of feel like that now. Um, it makes me really proud, like you're saying, to watch a person like Cory Booker do something really especially, um, brave and noteworthy and also just like irrelevant in some ways you know like a 25-hour speech and now we go on with the world and nothing changed.

Randy: 1:07:56

You know, um, but here's my only caveat.

Randy: 1:08:01

It is, I'm not ready to write the obituary as long as the the guidelines and the boundaries and the walls that are the founding fathers built as to like to not have a king, not have tyranny, to not have, you know, trump trying to do what he wants to do.

Randy: 1:08:18

If we can keep those constitutional guidelines and not have him run for a third term, or not have him figure out a way to to get get him through in a third term, because he's going to run, he's going to be the house speaker and then they're going to just elect whatever. It is all the crazy BS. Or if the judicial system somehow becomes meaningless because the Supreme Court renders it meaningless, these things are things that I never would have imagined, 10 years ago even. But now, all of a sudden, I'm having a little caveat which scares the shit out of me, to be honest with you. But if we can make it through these four years and not have a constitutional, absolute constitutional crisis, not like an almost constitutional crisis, but really actually a real one, a crumbling yeah yeah, I think we're still headed.

Randy: 1:09:09

Put my money down like a lot of money on it. I would say this is a blip in the trajectory of that arc that MLK spoke to of history bending towards justice. I still believe in that in progress. Like you're talking about Kyle in a way that is meaningful, in a way that, like four years, seems really really long right now and especially if you're a marginalized person, it seems like eternity. But four years can also be a really quick and relatively small amount of time when we're talking in the scope of history and of progress and of look at where we were 150 years ago and the way we treated women, the way we treated black people, the way we treated immigrants the way you know and I know we're treating them really shitty right now and I know there's a lot of terrible things going on. But in general, that arc of history is bending towards justice and I think this is going to be a dent in that arc. I hope that's where I am. As far as where I am regarding America, I'm not done with it. I'm not ready to give up. I'm not ready to throw in the towel. I just need a break. You know like I just need to. I'm pressing the pause button on my patriotism. I'm pressing the pause button on my romanticized idealism, but I still think it's there.

Randy: 1:10:34

I was listening. I was driving your kids around Elliot, around Florida, a week and a half ago. It was just me and the boys in the car and I was paging through the radio, doing what I do because I'm a channel surfer, and all of a sudden I heard the voice of Martin Luther King Jr and I was like oh shit. So I turned it up and I actually had a moment where I was like, guys, we should listen to this. And we started listening and it was Martin Luther King Jr. I don't remember what speech it was and where he was, but he was talking about that.

Randy: 1:11:02

It's our job to remind America of who she is. It's our job to remind our nation of what the values are that we were founded upon. And in that moment I felt hope, in that moment's saying it's not our jobs to create something new, it's our jobs to get our nation to remember who we are. Those are little blips of hope on my radar right now that I really need, and I think we're still moving towards it. Trump notwithstanding, conversations help us continue to create compelling content and reach a wider audience. By supporting us at patreoncom slash a pastor and a philosopher we can get bonus content, extra perks and a general feeling of being a good person.

Kyle: 1:12:18

Also, please rate and review the show in Apple, spotify or wherever you listen. These help new people discover the show and we may even read your review in a future episode.

Randy: 1:12:26

If anything we said pissed you off, or if you just have a question you'd like us to answer, send us an email at pastorandphilosopher at gmailcom.

Kyle: 1:12:34

Find us on social media at at ppwbpodcast, and find transcripts and links to all of our episodes at pastorandphilosopherbuzzsproutcom. See you next time, cheers, bye.