Where does real theology and spirituality happen? Should we continue looking to the academy and pulpits or might we find a more embodied and lived theology and spirituality in the kitchens and homes of marginalized women? Kat Armas calls us and our theology to the marginalized and colonized women in her book Abuelita Faith. It's a powerful book that is delightfully decentering and challenges our theology and spirituality that has been formed by people in power. She draws us to the forgotten and overlooked people in the Bible, letting them teach us and form our faith.
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Whistle Pig's 10 Year Rye Whiskey.
The beverage tasting is at 2:40. To skip to the main segment, go to 6:30.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
=====
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Cheers!
Where does real theology and spirituality happen? Should we continue looking to the academy and pulpits or might we find a more embodied and lived theology and spirituality in the kitchens and homes of marginalized women? Kat Armas calls us and our theology to the marginalized and colonized women in her book Abuelita Faith. It's a powerful book that is delightfully decentering and challenges our theology and spirituality that has been formed by people in power. She draws us to the forgotten and overlooked people in the Bible, letting them teach us and form our faith.
The whiskey we tasted in this episode is Whistle Pig's 10 Year Rye Whiskey.
The beverage tasting is at 2:40. To skip to the main segment, go to 6:30.
You can find the transcript for this episode here.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
Randy: [00:00:00] Well welcome friends again to another episode of a pastor and philosopher walk into a bar. We're excited for our guest today. We have Kat Armas who wrote the book that is called . But women on the margins teach us about wisdom, persistence, and strength. And it's something that I just want to be a learner of.
I want to learn how to center my faith in my theology and how to be informed by people in the marginalized, colonized people, people who have been exiled. How do I. Form and shape my faith. As I continue to grow as a Christian, as a follower of Christ, how do I let my faith be shaped by people on the margins?
How do I go to them? And how do I learn from them? These are for me important questions. And I'm excited to talk to Kat who is a Cuban American, who wrote from a perspective of that marginalized people group and has something to say. It was a really fun time.
Kyle: And also from a perspective of [00:01:00] let's make theology this familial thing. So I believe to is like an endearing term for your grandmother. And so the whole thing comes from her experience of learning what it means to be a Christian and what it means to do theology from this really intimate embodied experiential relationship with our grandmother, Cuban grandmother, and then having this jarring experience in seminary where you get.
Completely different from that. Yeah. And trying to square those things together. So it's a, it's a really interesting conversation.
Randy: Yeah. Yeah, no. Um, as, as we had this conversation and as I read the book, I have this, this picture in my mind of the sacred space in a home, maybe isn't where the dudes are talking.
Theology or Bible or what have you, the sacred and holy space in a home is where the, the woman usually are cooking and serving and giving of themselves in the kitchen and talking about real life, right? Like that's actually the real. Holy [00:02:00] space that God is at the center of. Um, and those are places that we need to
learn from.
Kyle: Yeah. I grew up growing up as like a white evangelical kid. It was not at all uncommon to have a kind of dinner and drinks with friends. And then you sit in the living space and you talk about theology and the night was kind of aimed at that. Right. And then this other perspective that no, the theology happened when you got to the kitchen.
And in fact, maybe it was going on more there than it was.
Conversation. It was sure being lived out more there than it is in the, you know, high-minded conversation. Surely
if the conversation excluded the people in that other space. Yeah.
Randy: Yep. So buckle up, get ready. And I'm also buckle up and get ready for this WhistlePig 10 year ride.
Kyle: Let's give it a go. I'm glad that I didn't have to provide this one. So
Randy: yeah. Speaking of who provided it, one of our top shelf supporters provided this, gifted it to. Jake second, shout out you get, but if you give us, if you give us delicious whiskey to [00:03:00] drink, we will shout you out. I'm just telling you this will happen.
So email us, but this is the WhistlePig single barrel rye aged 10 years. And this is, this is a decadent treat we got here before us, but let's go ahead and do this. So cheers, citrusy nose. I was going to say apple, apple. I like it like tart, you know, like a grainy. Yeah, I got a lot of lemon. I got a lot of Mr.
Clean.
Elliot: You know what I'm saying?
Randy: I mean, it's, it's alcohol, let's be honest. Hmm. Right. Nose.
Kyle: Hmm. Yeah. I've had this before, but that's hitting me different this time. You get to.
Randy: Yeah, but it's a ride. Usually I'm looking at rise that are peppery and really spicy. This is vanilla all over my tongue.
Kyle: Yeah. Yeah.
One of the least spicy rise I've probably had probably from the extra time in the barrel. It's got a middle of it out.
Randy: It's so nice and easy. This is the best. My favorite ride [00:04:00] I've ever had. Well, along with Willett, this is delicious. Yeah.
Elliot: Yeah. It's tangy. It's got a little, it's got some sour notes that are really fun for a
Randy: awry.
It's just way more caramel-y and rich and lush than most, any ride I've ever had. And I think that does have something to do with the age, but it's
Kyle: bright. Oh, it's um, higher proof than I thought two 53%.
Randy: Okay. It doesn't taste it. No, no, I wouldn't cut this whatsoever. Really nice. I think it's it brings the brightness.
It brings the, did you say tangy? Yeah, Elliott, but also the sweet richness as well. Really good. Yep.
Elliot: It's orange for me
Kyle: taste like miracle whip taste tangy means different things to different people, I
Randy: guess. So this, so this runs at like 85, 90 bucks, not retail cheap one, not a cheap one. Would you have this on your shelf is like, uh, let me bring this out for my favorite people.
Like, does this
Kyle: hit that? Yeah, for sure. I don't, I've got like to [00:05:00] rise in my, um, inventory that I keep around mostly for mixing. So, yeah, I would hope you
Randy: wouldn't mix this. No, no, this isn't a mixer,
Elliot: but I, this is a lot like a light roast coffee to me where it's those more acidic flavors. I enjoy them for a minute.
But if I was trying to share something with my favorite people, it'd be something that's more in my groove, which is going to be darker flavors. Yeah. Yep.
Randy: We'll try to bring you over to the, to the light, which is light roasted coffee, that you can actually taste the notes in the coffee rather than they have been burnt out
Kyle: already.
Make sure I'm understanding you. Weren't saying that you think darker roasted coffees. He is saying
Randy: no, I was,
Elliot: I do enjoy like a medium to dark roast over it. We
Randy: can forgive him.
Elliot: This is not
Kyle: a safe place. I feel like something's broken relationships.
Randy: It's okay. We'll do a coffee tasting and I think we'll bring Elliot over to the light. [00:06:00] I thought I was in a safe place
Elliot: here.
Randy: Let's let's let's focus this back on the WhistlePig ten-year rye. I say delicious. It's good. Yeah. It's wonderful.
Thanks Jake. Awesome. As we've done a couple of times recently after the tastings, we shout out a top shelf supporter because top shelf supporters seriously make this podcast happen. So thank you, Eve B, we are so grateful for you and your support. We can't do this without you Eve MB, cheers to you. Cheers.
Kyle: So cat, Armas, thanks so much for being on a pastor and philosopher, walking into.
Kat: Yes. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to
Kyle: be here, to start out. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about your background and the book that just came out and what led you to.
Kat: Yeah. So, um, you know, as you I'm sure read in the book I'm Cuban-American and I'm from Miami.
And so I think that that's very, um, I, I make sure to mention that, um, over and over again, [00:07:00] I think all good theologians need to locate themselves. You know, as far as, um, place goes. So, yeah, I grew up in Miami and that's unique because I was part of the dominant culture being Cuban American, you know? And so, uh, everyone, you know, that I knew growing up was Cuban American or at least, you know, Latino, Latina, Latin X.
Um, and that was a huge part of my upbringing. I was raised by a single mother and a single grandmother. And so that was also, you know, shaped. Of course, you know, growing up in a very matriarchal household, right. And just in culture in general, that aspect of my background and that really what led me to write this book was wrestling with my ethnic identity.
Once I left Miami, once I left my Cuban Haven and I arrived in a very, um, white evangelical setting, you know, I was raised Roman Catholic and an immigrant Roman Catholic community. And then I sort of stumbled upon Protestantism and white evangelicalism. And I ended up at a Southern Baptist [00:08:00] seminary.
Don't ask me how I literally knew nothing about seminaries or evangelicalism at all. It's sort of just happened. And of course it was a huge culture shock and it was, you know, obviously wrestling with my ethnicity and, and just wrestling with the way that I was raised, showing up to a seminary that is predominant or, you know, All white and mostly male.
And you know, where the framework of theology or the framework of interpretation was, you know, really came from a rural farm, you know, Southern context, which is fine. It just wasn't mine. And there was no way for me to relate to it. So seminary actually, you know, the beginning of seminary actually made me feel further away from God and closer to God, um, because it just had nothing to do with me, you know?
So, yeah. So that was a little bit of my journey. And what sparked my wrestling with what I call an hourly theology or an hourly, the faith and my grandmother who raised me in the faith that shaped. [00:09:00]
Randy: So the book is called abuelita faith, and it's a remarkable book about centering our theology in marginalized communities.
That was my takeaway from it. Well, I want to go further into that, but as I read through the book, I felt like I got to know your family and particularly your availa. Um, so can you tell us a little bit about your umbrella and where, where this book came from and why, why she sparked this within you?
Kat: Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, so my grandmother, Maya Willa, she, you know, was born and raised in Cuba and she immigrated her along with the rest of my family, my immediate family, you know, um, her children, my aunt and uncle, my mother and my grandfather immigrated to the U S in the early sixties in the height of the. You know, political unrest in Cuba, which, you know, if you're watching the news at all, there still is political unrest in Cuba.
But yeah, so she, you know, immigrated here. And, um, soon after my grandfather, Maya [00:10:00] Willow, he passed away and they think it was due to complications from just the trauma and the stress of the immigration. He would be what they call a bug Siddle. So someone who, you know, escaped in the night on a raft and sort of a.
Arrived in Miami. So, yeah, so he died shortly after. And my grandmother, you know, she raised her children by herself, in a country that, um, she didn't, you know, know it in a language that she didn't know, and her story very much is shaped by survival. And so that's something that. No, I didn't realize that obviously I wasn't paying attention.
And as I was when I was a little girl, but you know, as I grew older, I realized it's so much of her story is a story of survival, right? It's a story of dealing with the effects of machismo and patriarchy and, and trying to provide for her family and raising a sick daughter. And yeah. And in the midst of that, just maintaining her faith, right.
Maintaining her faith in God, um, which looked different than what the dominant culture said. Faith would look [00:11:00] like. Right. Um, and that's something that I really rustled with as I arrived, you know, in seminary, in a setting very different than my. That faith very much is tied to survival in many marginalized communities.
They're sort of one and the same, you know, and the dominant culture doesn't teach it that way. Right. It's like survival and faith are two different things. But growing up, I saw that they were really one in the same. And so, yeah, that's something that I. That I really began to wrestle with, you know, what did my grandmother's face looked like?
She didn't lead a Bible study. She wasn't, you know, she, she didn't have the luxury to, or she didn't know the right quote unquote right way to preach a passage or even interpret a passage. She was just, you know, living day to day, you know, um, in the midst of her community, she, um, sewed and she had her own little business that she ran from home.
Um, and that was something that was huge, you know, a huge part of my upbringing and a huge part of who she is, you know, she served our community through how she, you know, [00:12:00] make through literally making clothes with her hands. And she provided for us, you know, in that way as well. And she set her own tables and, you know, the fam family and, and the community was constantly over our house all the time.
And yeah. And so I just began wrestling with, well, well, what that's theology, you know, what of that. Her theologizing with her body and, and, um, you know, what is there to learn from that? And not necessarily, you know, the right way to think about God, but just being and, and the ways that she was being and doing in the world.
Kyle: Yeah. So I think this is a good, a good point entry point into the conversation. Cause I wanted to ask you about theology. And you, you tell a story in the book about being in seminary and feeling like everything that was happening in the classrooms, wasn't really for you. Maybe didn't really have a space for you.
You tell a particular story of something like an offhand comment. One of your professors made that really excluded you. So that must have been a really kind of jarring juxtaposition right. Coming from this is [00:13:00] what faith looks like. My grandmother's embodied survival. And now we're doing something completely different in seminary.
So can you explain your seminary experience a little bit and why that was so jarring for you and why you ended up ultimately, I think leaving one seminary, right. And finding, finding something completely different. So can you take us into that experience?
Kat: Yeah. Um, so as I mentioned earlier, it was, um, a huge culture shock, right?
To arrive, you know, leaving my, my city, my very Cuban big city experience. And also just the, the experiences that I had, you know, in a very matriarchal household and then arriving to a setting where I was told that there was a specific way you had to be, and there was a specific way to follow God. And there was a, you know, if I want it to be quote unquote obedient, you know, I had to be submissive in this certain way.
And. And that just didn't line up with my lived experience. I mean, it sounds great in theory. Sure. I mean, it doesn't sound great, but you know, I'm sure for the people teaching it, it sounds great in theory, but that's not how the majority of the world again, because they're just [00:14:00] trying to survive, you know, it's not practical.
And I think that that was sort of the wrestling that I had, you know, riding in the seminary and, you know, literally having to wrestle with. So, so the way that I am and how I was raised and, you know, just my experiences, are they wrong or are they, you know, do they position me further away from God? Um, is there more that I have to change or become in order to be a quote unquote, right.
Christian? And so. That was really, um, yeah, really jarring for me to sort of wrestle with now. I, you know, because I didn't grow up, I wasn't raised in the white evangelical church. I think it was easy for me, you know, as an adult to come into this and say, wait a minute, this isn't the reality for the majority of the world.
And so like, you know, I, it was easy for me to step in. I say that I, I stepped into white evangelicalism and then I quickly stepped out of it. Um, because I was able to sort of see that, no, this isn't, this just isn't reality. Right? Um, so yeah, so that experience, um, was very difficult for [00:15:00] me. And in my book, I talk about this idea of research grief.
And I think that that's where it sort of all came together for me. I think that we all know that, you know, and we know the history of colonization and we, we understand the history of whiteness and we understand, and we know, you know, the history of racism, but I think for me really. There was a moment where it all sort of hit me and it felt very personal, you know, and it was, I was studying the history of my people, you know, the Cuban people and how Christianity intersects with the Cuban people in history.
And, you know, that's when it really, really became personal and, and, you know, it was like, wait a minute. No, this is, this is about me, you know, as a woman, um, as a Cuban woman, um, this directly affects me. And so, yeah, that began, you know, just another layer of, of rustling. Uh, dealing with generational grief and, and colonial wounds and, you know, all of these sorts of things that, yeah.
The dominant culture doesn't, you know, wrestle with or invite us to wrestle with. [00:16:00] Um, you know, so, so yeah, that was a very big moment for me feeling. Wait a minute. Yeah. This has nothing to do with me. And so if this has nothing to do with me, then how do I take this back to my community? What is like, why am I here?
You know what I mean? Um, and there was a lot of moments where I asked myself that question, you know, being told, oh yeah, you know, you should learn Greek and Hebrew. You should learn the languages. And yeah. You know, it really being that, that was really a suggestion for the men. And it was like, but women, you know, your husbands will be very impressed if you learn Greek and Hebrew.
And it's like, I've, so I'm doing all, I'm spending this money and I'm doing all of this to like impress my husband that I did not have at the time. So, you know, it was just very. Yeah. And
Kyle: that's doubly ironic. When you think that the point of learning those languages is to immerse yourself in an ancient culture, right?
Like figure out modes of existence that aren't yours. Did you ever try to bring up those kinds of experiences or other [00:17:00] ways of theologizing with your professors? How, how was that received? Did it seem like it just was bouncing off a wall?
Kat: I mean, I, um, you know, I was, I was raised to be. You know, assertive and confident in who I am as a woman.
And, you know, that's just because I literally, I mean, I was just raised by women, so we, you know, we just had to do what we had to do, but, um, so yeah, so I mean, I did, I would push back and I would just, you know, kind of engage in. And, um, I remember one of the, I don't remember exactly the conversation, but, um, After the, uh, professor made a comment like that, you know, he kinda ended it with right cat and it really felt like one of those, like daggers, like I'm speaking to you because you are outspoken and you need to hear this, you know?
Um, so yeah, so I would, you know, I would speak up in class and for the most part, you know, if I wasn't completely ignored, you know, or just kind of yeah. Whatever, or, oh, that's cute. You know? Um, then it was just, you know, there wasn't any real engagement, you know, I remember [00:18:00] one time I asked a professor like, Uh, I w I went to him after class and was kind of like wanting to wrestle deeper with something and, you know, he kind of like dismissed it.
And I noticed that he wouldn't do that to a lot of the men, you know, th I mean, he had his little crew of guys that would follow him around, you know, and when I tried to kind of, Hey, I wanna, you know, engage with this and, you know, he wasn't really very interested. And so, yeah, it was, it's very dehumanizing, very deep.
I see. To be a woman in these spaces for
Randy: sure. Yeah. You know, you were in many ways, it sounds like discipled in the white evangelical church. In these formative years, you went to seminary in this white evangelical world and saw enough of it to say, this is, this is not matched with the real world in my world, walked away from it.
But I'm consistently confounded by the people who. Part of marginalized communities, marginalized people who are part of these spaces, these white evangelical spaces, and they sound like [00:19:00] majority culture. Um, they've been discipled within colonized Christianity and they affect. White privilege. Are they a firm?
You know, the people in power and make us feel good. We all know some of the people that I'm talking about. Can you just help me understand that a little bit? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Kyle: But you also mentioned, and the book that like a large part of the Cuban American population in Miami went for Trump.
Yeah. So it would be an example.
Kat: Yeah, no, I think man, I wish I could really dissect that. Yeah. For me, you know, what I was wrestling with as I was thinking about that. And, you know, because a lot of my community, you know, they, they have very strong political views and they, um, you know, are very passionate about certain things.
Um, and in my book, I talk about how, you know, the sort of like the color of whiteness and how. You know, for, for many Latin X people from any Latin X communities, you know, [00:20:00] assimilation equates to power and it equates to, you know, so many things and it equates to yeah. To just power. And I think that that's something that for the Cuban, for many people within the Cuban American community in Miami, You know, they, they did go through a lot of trauma, um, through exile, you know, um, through political unrest.
And I think what's, what's very interesting and, and I I'm gonna speak specifically for the Cuban-American community cause you know, I'm not gonna speak for everybody else, but they, I, I always say that they were used as pawns in a political game. And I, and I talk about how, you know, that's what empire does, right?
Like the U S has an empire, an empire. Creates a vulnerable situations and then, you know, puts people in vulnerable situations and then says, you know, Hey, we're the only ones that can save you from this vulnerability. You know? And then that's sort of what happened with the Cuban community. You know, communism was like the buzz around that time, he was at the height of the cold war.
And so there was just so much going on and. The U S [00:21:00] loved the Cubans were escaping communism, you know, the enemy. Right. And so, yeah, so they were just used, I say, as pawns in a political war and, and a lot of people have not cared about the Cuban people, not on the island and not in the U S but anyway, I say all of that to say that, um, when the us welcomed, you know, many of the, of the Cubans that came, they, you know, they felt.
Wow. You know, here we are, we arrived in this country and it was sort of our salvation. And so we're going to do what we can to get, you know, to, to give our lives for this place. Right. Um, and the, the U S became a sort of salvation, um, and the us positions itself like that in many ways, um, like a salvage.
You know, sort of place. Um, but I like to say that, you know, the U S is not particularly for Christians, a U S is not Israel. The us is Babylon. Right. Um, uh, and so it's really interesting to sort of wrestle with that, but I think to answer your question more directly, I think that for many marginalized people, including the Cuban Americans in Miami, you [00:22:00] know, assimilation equates to power and you know, many people don't want to see themselves as, as the victim or the ones that were.
You know, whatever they want to be the victorious ones. Um, they want to be on the side of the winning, you know, whatever. And so I think that that is the case for many in my
Randy: community. So Kat, I want to just quote you because there's this, there's this paragraph in chapter one. Just hooked me right off the bat.
You said my journey began to be shaped by the desire to learn about Jesus. From the perspective of low humil days, the colonized, the marginalized, those who didn't get to write the history and theology books. In many ways, they are the ones intimately acquainted with the Jesus of the gospels, the bi-cultural border crossing brown Jesus, the one born in a stable rejected in his home.
Tortured broken and battered. I knew that in order to understand this Jesus better, I would have to prioritize listening and centering the voices of low humil days. Now this seems like a thesis statement for the [00:23:00] entire book. Can you kind of just bring us into that awakening and what that looks like particularly you were talking to two white guys right now and I want to, I want to do just what you said right there.
How can we do that? And can you just flush that out for.
Kat: Yeah, thank you for reading that. So also mean there's is, is, you know, just, it means the humble and, um, you know, kind of what I was just talking about. I think that, you know, many, uh, many folks have sort of had this image of Jesus has this victorious, you know, comes in in a white horse, like.
Powerful with absurd Jesus. But of course that's not the Jesus that we see in the gospels or the Jesus that interacts with marginalized people in scripture. But that's certainly not the Jesus said, you know, I sorted out the Jews that might my grandmother. Right. For example, interacted with. And, and yeah.
And when I, you know, Began seminary or when I transitioned to Protestantism and I began learning from the so-called experts, you know, I [00:24:00] was really, it was that sort of that white Jesus that victorious on a S on, you know, on a horse Jesus that was sold to me, you know, and. And it wasn't until that I began shifting my perspective and saying, wait a minute, you know, what do I have to learn from, from like the Jesus of Los
This it wasn't until I sort of tried to flip that, that I really began to learn about. The, what we call, you know, the true Jesus, the not colonized Jesus. Um, and for me, that journey was very much, you know, looking at scripture and, you know, and, and I love the Bible. I'm a huge Bible nerd, but of course, you know, we know the Bible was written by men and foreman.
And so, you know, what is, what are, where are the places that we haven't been trained to look in scripture, you know, How do we see, you know, God at work or even if we want to read the gospels, like how do we see, you know, what's between the lines. And for me, I found that so much in so many of the women in scripture.
And so many of the women that Jesus interacts with, [00:25:00] you know, the Tripoli, marginalized, the Canaanite woman, you know, the one who Jesus says you have great faith. And, and right after right before he tells the disciples, you have no faith. Right? So in all of these, these specific spaces and places where. We weren't really trained to look, you know, what, what is the interaction with Jesus and Las of, and the humble.
And what can we learn about Jesus? Yeah. And so I think that, that, as you mentioned, it is sort of like a, you know, a thesis statement for the book looking for and the Jesus of . And for me in this book, or sort of in my journey was looking for Jesus and, you know, the women that are overlooked or the women that aren't, that we're not trained to, to really learn the most about Jesus from.
Kyle: Yeah, so quick follow-up to that. It's not on the outline. And then I have a question that is on the other way. So our podcast is in many ways about finding a good balance between. Academic or [00:26:00] intellectual analysis, like, you know, going deep on theology and stuff, and then having a kind of pastoral or practical approach to the same issues.
That's kind of why we exist as a podcast. And I feel like you might be uniquely situated to help us do that a little bit, because what you're describing largely in the book and what you just described as a much more kind of situated experiential embodied faith experience and seeing theology through that lens of your intended.
But you're also, you've also been in the academic space. And you say in the book that maybe someday you'd like to turn this topic into an academic book. So you clearly also think that there is a place for that kind of discussion. Um, so what do you think is I guess the best way to keep that balance? So like, when you do decide to write your academic texts, how are you going to do that in a way that still keeps the spirit of your boiler in?
And if that means.
Kat: Yeah, no, that's such a good question because I am also really passionate about that. You know, I, I hope that you can see that in my book that I [00:27:00] value, you know, Western education and I value, um, the academy very much, but I'm also sort of arguing and saying, well, that's not, that doesn't matter.
It's not the most important thing, or it's not where we learn the most about God. And so I think it is like a weird tension that I also sort of like to sit in and wrestle with, um, because I think. So to answer your question, I'll, I'll share a little bit more about what I think, but I sort of wrestle with this and I will lead the faith through the notion of de-colonial theory or decolonization or, um, and there's a lot of ways that you could look at decolonization.
Right? I know that's a buzzword right now and I wish it weren't because there's, it's an actual theory. It's an actual thing that people study, but. Um, there are many ways that you can look at a decolonization. And the way that I look at it is it's sort of through, through the notion of wisdom or knowledge.
Right. And I, I, I want to wrestle with, well, you know, what is wisdom or what is knowledge who is wise and who gets to say what that is, right. Who gets to call something wise or. [00:28:00] Or who, you know, or who gets to say that something is knowledge, you know? Um, and so that's sort of what I'm wrestling with. Um, and of course that leads into this idea of embodiment or embodied wisdom.
Um, and so, yeah, so I think that as I'm. As I'm wrestling with that. And as I'm thinking through the, you know, formal theological education or formal sort of, you know, wisdom versus the wisdom of my abuela, that's something that I'm, that I'm constantly asking, you know, where do we find wisdom? And so what I do a lot in the book is I look at, for, you know, I'll give you an example of the midwives, you know, shipper and Pooh, right.
Um, You know, we sort of just talk about them in passing, like, oh wow. They, you know, they saved Moses and yay. You know, and then Moses is the hero of the story. But if we really look into their story, which again, you know, we only get little snippets of it because you know, that's not the quote unquote most important part, which I [00:29:00] argue that it is, it's one of the most important parts of the story, but they were wisdom.
They were women of deep wisdom, you know, They were women of embodied wisdom. If we learn anything about, or, I mean, I did do research on midwifery in the ancient world and they were spiritual healers and leaders and, and this was all, you know, quote unquote, informally, you know, they did rituals and they, you know, all these things and they people look to them as spiritual leaders and.
And so I, you know, I want to turn our attention there. Like that's where we can find wisdom and these women that have been overlooked, right. That's where we can, you know, learn so much about, about the divine learn so much about God. And so I think to find a good balance, I think. Yeah. Wrestling with, well, well, what, what is knowledge and where can we find it?
Both formally, you know? Um, because I think that I value, like I said, I value Western education, but also informally, like what can we learn about knowledge or wisdom from the midwives, from midwifery, from the body, [00:30:00] from, you know, I'm pregnant right now. And so I'm obviously doing. Learning about the body and speaking to a lot of midwives and a lot of doulas.
And so what can we learn about that sort of thing from, you know, people like that. Um, and so, yeah, so I think that when it comes to wrestling with those two things with embodied wisdom and with, I guess, formal education. I think it's being able to have a good balance of seeking for wisdom or acknowledging what is wise in places where we haven't or, you know, in ways that we haven't traditionally been trained to look or taught to look or what we haven't traditionally thought is wisdom or thighs wise.
Um, and in already that faith I'd argue that that is. Through things like sewing and things like dancing, our bodies contain wisdom. Our hands have so much wisdom. Um, you know, and also sure we can learn things with our minds, but our bodies also have that wisdom. And so I think that it's a heavy holding both of those things.
I don't know if [00:31:00] that answers your question. No, that's
Kyle: great. And it's a good segue too, into the next one. So about the Bible. So something that I noticed specifically related to the story of the midwives that your. Maybe you've noticed this too. I don't know. Evangelicals white evangelicals in America seem to have.
Maybe what I would consider an unhealthy obsession with the old Testament. And they often have a hermaneutic that's usually kind of invisible to themselves where they want to privilege what they find in the old Testament, or at least make sure that it's on an equal footing with what they find in the new Testament.
And an example of that. Run into over and over and over again is when it comes to controversial social issues, particularly things that are political. So what is the religious person's relationship to the state or things that have been politicized like gender or sexuality or whatever the use of violence would be another one often in, you know, forming their own doctrines of their own thoughts about those issues.
Evangelicals white ones will kind of default to certain [00:32:00] narratives in the old Testament or certain didactic things in the old Testament. That story of the midwives that you just discussed is an excellent example of where a close reading of the old Testament would actually give you kind of the opposite.
I don't know, moral guidance, I guess, to what the evangelicals tend to get out of it. And it made me think, man, I've heard countless sermons or, you know, soundbites from white evangelicals about how you should submit to the authority of the state, basing that on something in the new Testament. And not a single damn thing about, uh, what it says in Exodus where God blesses the midwives for actively disobeying and actually lying to the state authority.
So that seems to me like a straightforward hypocrisy. Right? Am I being too harsh there? What's your read of, of that situation?
Kat: No. Yeah, no, I think that you're right. Um, I, and that's something that, you know, as I was working on this book, it, it's not just in the midwives. Like we see this over and over and over again and about [00:33:00] how, you know, and I, obviously I focus on women, but how women are, you know, literally doing whatever it takes to survive and engaging in civil disobedience and protest in so many of these things that, yeah, as you mentioned are, you know, not, we're not told to emulate, but yet yeah.
We're we're Hey. Let's focus so much on the old Testament or this or that and the specific aspects of it. Um, but when we really get to these stories down to like the details of these stories, they're subversive, right? They're so subversive and they're so scandalous. And I think that that's just, I mean, that for me is the crux of an athlete that theology, you know, it is so much of marginalized people throughout history, particularly when.
Do what they gotta do to survive, you know, and God blesses it. Right. And I like to say that they're doing the deeply right thing, regardless of what or who, you know, is in charge or yeah. You know, regardless of what empire might say or. You know, they're just doing the deeply right thing. And a lot of the time [00:34:00] that looks like the opposite of what, what empire selling them to do.
Right. And so that's something that I, I find so fascinating in scripture and something that we need to constantly, you know, tease out of the story because it is so subversive and there is so much, you know, I mean, you have. Tamar who uses her sexuality, you know, to ensure her future, you know, same thing with Ruth and Naomi.
You know, that story is so romanticized and it's so sweet and so cute cause of Boaz. But I mean, it's just two women trying to survive and doing what they have to do to survive. I mean, even down to Moses's mother, she engages in civil disobedience, puts him in, in the very reverse. Pharaoh was using, you know, the Pharaoh instructed them to use, to kill, you know, the Hebrew boys.
She uses that same river to save and liberate a nation. Um, you know, the very same people that Pharaoh's trying to destroy. And so, yeah, there's so much subversive stuff. I mean, I talk about risk both on the story of Brisbane, how she puts her body on the line as [00:35:00] protests, you know, when the, when her sons were unjustly murdered.
And so we see that over and over and over again in the Bible and. Throughout history, just women doing things and standing up to power and being subversive. Yeah. I'm doing the deeply right thing. And so I think it is you're right. Very hypocritical. Many ways
Randy: on this podcast, we've talked cat about the feminine nature.
The holy spirit and the femininity within the Godhead and in the book, in your book at several points, you refer to the holy spirit as the feminine wild child of the Trinity. And you talk about the holy spirit that you grew up with being referred to as a spiritual Santa. Now, if I just did a Google search and I asked holy spirit in Spanish, and it says, Purdue Santo, tell, tell us.
Your upbringing and your understanding of the holy spirit as the feminine wild child of the holy Trinity and as spiritual son does that, uh, is that a [00:36:00] commonly held Latina understanding of the holy spirit?
Kat: Yeah, it's not. Um, so yeah, you're right. It's a speed of sound. Um, you know, obviously the Spanish language, very gendered.
And so we have a for, for, uh, female and oh, for male. Um, but, but I, so I, the, uh, wild child of the Trinity, I got that from. Latinos even helicopters. So I didn't come up with that term, but it's from Latinas even and she's a Latina theologian. And, um, I just, absolutely, you know, when I stumbled upon that, I absolutely loved it.
I think for many reasons, you know, obviously as we read so much of the old Testament, you know, Is so many references to a feminine, right. When it comes to the holy spirit. Um, and also even the idea of wisdom. I think that's also a big one, you know, wisdom is a sheet in scripture and which I think is just so incredible.
Um, particularly, you know, because I talk so much about wisdom of my book, but yeah. [00:37:00] You know, I think for me growing up in a very matriarchal culture and, you know, in, in sort of seeing how God. How the holy spirit, you know, granted I do grew up Catholic. So the holy spirit, wasn't the focus really of, you know, our, you know, we were mostly focused on the sacraments and things like that, but, but still, it's just this idea that God is present in spaces.
And all sorts of spaces and God is moving in unexpected ways. And so when I read that wild child of the Trinity, I, I just loved it so much. And there's a specific, um, I talk about this in my book, but I think a perfect example of that is, um, when Paul, he has a dream of a man. Telling him, you know, to go to Macedonia, he's like, please come to Macedonia.
You know, this is when Paul's doing his mission trips, I guess, whatever you want to call them his travels. And, um, uh, you know, he has a vision of a man saying, come to Macedonia. So he says, okay. And they, you know, they are on their [00:38:00] way to, to Macedonia and they get there. And the first people they run into, or the first person that he runs into, um, in, in Philippa is Lydia.
And Lydia ends up, you know, as we know, she's sort of like the first convert, you know, to Chris or to, you know, Paul's message. So first convert and she's the, you know, uh, many believe that the first leader in church leader of Philippines. And I just love that, you know, like this sort of wild child of the Trinity of like, Hey, there's a man come to Macedonia and, you know, sort of share the gospel here.
And he arrives and it's a group of women and I call them out. We did the theologians, they're outside of the city, praying, you know, as, as our leaders do, you know, and, you know, boom, the, the first church in Philippi has started. Um, and so I think that's a perfect example. You know, the holy spirit is just leading people, you know, in, in different and interesting and different ways.
And so. For me, you know, seeing that in so many women in my community and seeing how God was, [00:39:00] um, and how the spirit was at work, um, through, again, things like cooking and sewing and dancing, which are such, you know, quote unquote feminine things, uh, and seeing how, yeah, that's where, you know, God was really moving.
That's where I saw God, that's where I saw the spirit alive most vividly. And so I just sort of switched the oh, The Spanish to the a, um, you know, yeah. To kinda just remind folks, you know, of the, the feminine, wild childness of the holy spirit.
Randy: Yeah. Um, so as someone who in our worlds uniquely grew up in a matriarchal culture in men, I wish there were more.
Who did that? I mean, you basically rejected a patriarchal faith, right? Like you, you saw it for what it was walked away from it. If there wasn't a possible turn within Christianity to something more, you know, feminine and rooted in an embodied spirituality, would you have been able to continue with this Christian?
Kat: Um, that's a [00:40:00] good question. So you're saying like, if I had not been raised that way, whatever, I mean,
Randy: like, so yeah, you, you, you grew up in this matriarchal culture and we're shaped by it informed by it in beautiful ways, but we're introduced to a faith that is intensely patriarchal. And I would say not because that's God's intention, but because women made it.
So, um, so if you were given and said, this is the only way you can accept Christianity, it's an, a patriarchal faith in a patriarchal way. And here's your role? I mean, would you, where would cat RSB right now, today, if that was the only choice given to you?
Kat: Yeah. Woof, I don't know. You know, I, um, I talk about it in the book, how, you know, God, like, I felt like I, I, I was given sort of this spirit of like a combative spirit, you know what I mean?
Um, I don't know if you guys were into the Instagram. Uh, I know it's not like super in anymore.
Randy: The one half of us are into the integrated,
Kat: well, I'm an Enneagram eight. Um, and I remember, you know, [00:41:00] yeah. So a couple of years ago, I remember when I started reading about that or whatever, and I was not Nadia it's Weber, she's an eight.
And she says, you know, I walk around with my middle finger to the world and I said, me too.
And she said like, you know, and then they were talking about how female or women who are Enneagram eights really struggle because we're misunderstood. You know? Um, people think that we're whatever, you know, whatever you want to call us. Um, but we're just like, like if a man has an eight, it's fine. But if a woman's an age she's like really obnoxious.
So anyway, all that to say that I've always felt like I've had this combative spirit. And I think for me, you know, I will say that Cuban culture is, you know, my specific household was very matriarchal, but you know, Cuban, Cuban people and Latin X people struggled heavily with patriarchy and machismo. You know, that is a huge part of our culture as well.
You know, women are relegated, you know, we call, I call it Alita [00:42:00] theology, or many people call it the theology of kitchen theology, which is beautiful. You know, it's theology, that's formed in the kitchen, around the dinner table. But the reality is that women, um, Cuban women are relegated to the kitchen in many ways.
Right. Um, that's sort of their place. So it's not to say that that machismo was not something that I dealt with or even still do deal with. You know, I, I'm not married to a Cuban man for a reason because they are very machismo, but I mean, that's generalizing, but anyway, so yeah, I will say to answer your question, maybe I.
Fought against it as I, you know, did you know, I, I love, uh, I, I'm a nerd. I love to read and I love to study. And so when I was in this very patriarchal setting or world, it just, something felt off. And so I sort of just did my own reading and research and my own sort of study. And I came to my own conclusions and maybe that would have happened.
Had I not been raised by women who [00:43:00] knows? I like to think. So what would have happened because of my very combative Enneagram H spirits. So yeah. I like to think that yes, I would have
Kyle: done the same thing. I'm a five, so naturally I think it's all bullshit.
Randy: I love
Kyle: it. So probably my favorite chapter in the book and also the one that I least expected was chapter six, which is called
Uh, so I want to ask you about that and get you to maybe summarize the essence of it for our listeners. I'm asking partially for my wife, who was a fashion designer. Um, and so I've always thought that there's something philosophical about how we present ourselves to the world through clothing and also something spiritual about it.
And that seems to be not a very common thing that people focus on. So it was really excited to see a chapter on that. Um, so can you maybe just summarize the essence of that chapter? How has creating with your hands and you know, what you want. Uh, theological act or a spiritual.
Kat: Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, [00:44:00] yeah, I think, you know, again, growing up, watching my grandmother, literally I say that she created worlds out of her hands. You know, she created clothes, you know, for people and for myself and Halloween costumes. That was what I remember the most is, you know, her creating. Halloween costumes for me.
Cause of course, you know, I was young and that was so exciting. And just being able to express myself in so many different ways from literally something that she did with a needle and a thread, you know, I think that that was, for me, it was so magical and I think it still is, you know, um, I think that there is so much spirituality in it and going back to what I was saying earlier, right.
That our bodies contain so much wisdom. You know, I talk about how like, Like how her hands knew and how her body knew. And, and not only that, but you know, in how she, when, when people came over for fittings or when she even did fittings on me, you know, she was intentional. She knew the measurements of my body and she, you know, she [00:45:00] was intentional about how the fabric landed on my body and how it felt on my skin.
And these are all, you know, very spiritual experiences about. Experiences, you know, all your senses are engaged when you handle pieces of fabric when you're using a needle in a thread. And I, I found that, you know, I think what's sort of sparked to that me wrestling with this was, um, the story of Tabitha, you know, and I mentioned that in, in that chapter, but you know, I, I think what stood out to me in the story of Tabitha is that one day I was reading it as I was doing research for this book and just looking for overlooked and unnamed.
And Thomas is sort of overlooked. I mean, you know, we sorta know her story, but if you look at any Bible translation right before her story, it'll say like Peter resurrects, someone or something, you know, like she's not even like the point of that story. It's just the fact that Peter resurrected someone.
But if you really start to ask questions about that story, Why was Tabitha? I mean, not everybody that died in the new Testament was resurrected. Like, what was it about [00:46:00] Tabitha? She was like the one of three or one of four besides Jesus, you know, to be resurrected. And so like, why was, you know, what was so important about her and, and she's called the disciples specifically.
And, you know, she's the only woman specifically to be called a disciple in the new Testament. And so like, what was it about her story? What was it about her, you know, As I'm as I'm wrestling or as I'm reading the Bible through an lens, I guess you can say I'm stopping, you know, at these women and I'm letting my theological imagination sort of soar, and I'm asking these questions, you know, let's stop here.
What, what is it about her? And I love that the only detail that we get about Tabitha, I mean, she. She was resurrected. She had all these really important things. She was a disciple, but the only thing we know about her life and her ministry is that she made clothes. I mean, that's like the only detail that we get in the Bible.
And I think that that is huge, you know, um, as I was doing. Sort of the [00:47:00] exegetical work on this, you know, people called her community organizer and people called her, you know, an activist because she was, she was doing the very thing that a few chapters before, if you remember, there was this whole debacle between the Greek speaking Jews and, you know, the, the Hebrews and they were overlooking the widows.
And here we have, you know, Tabitha just doing the thing, you know, and she. Not really. I mean, again, she's overlooked her stories really quick, or, you know, whatever's really quick and all we know is that she made clothes. And so, yeah, so as I studied it, I wrestled with that and I started thinking about. You know the story of Genesis and how, you know, God sows close together for Adam and Eve, you know, in, in this very, you know, epic story of the fall.
And we get that detail that, that God is intentional about sewing clothes for Adam and Eve. And, and yeah, these are all spiritual acts and I'm realizing. Reading scripture that these are spiritual acts and these are embodied, and these are intentional and, and it [00:48:00] involves love and care and all these and all of these things.
And so, yeah, I saw that so much in my grandmother's story and, and even looking at it from a decolonized perspective. I mean, as I mentioned, you know, she'll, she'll, I still go and I'm wearing, you know, stuff. I bought cheap stuff and she'll. No, touch my clothes and say like, oh, you know, it's not the same.
And she, her body knows. Right. Because she feels it. And, and so I kind of also in the chapter go into how fast fashion is, is one of the greatest sources of injustice in our world, you know? And, and I know that there's a place for all of that. I know that, you know, resources and all of that, but, but yeah, you know, so much injustice happens.
I think. When we get away from, you know, when capitalism has taken over, you know, this, this beautifully spiritual thing of, of making clothes and dressing our bodies. And so, yes, I'm so glad you liked that chapter because it was a fun one to, to write, uh,
Elliot: This episode is brought to you with support from Morley's maple syrup. If you're [00:49:00] trying to find a thoughtful gift that says more than I have Amazon prime Morley's maple syrup is a great idea. They have several pre-made gift boxes of Wisconsin made maple syrup like the coffee lovers box, which of course includes coffee infused Maples.
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Randy: So Kat, I'm a pastor of a predominantly white church, formerly evangelical, but for the most part of our history, we were evangelical.
And I know that there's other pastors and church leaders of very similar churches, bigger ones, white American evangelical churches. As, as people who have influence over our [00:50:00] congregations functional theology, as we have influence over their ways of seeing the world in reality and what people value and what voices we value, how can we, how can.
And people like me incorporate, I will lead to faith and theology into the normal everyday life of our churches and congregations. How can we center the marginalized and colonized voices, um, rather than what we've been schooled and given to center those conversations and those understandings and how, what, what can we practically do to feature the marginalized voices of.
Kat: Yeah, that's a good question. Um, and I'm sure that's going to look different and every community and, and what resources and what, you know, who's in your communities. But I two things, one, I think something that I actually tweeted about this today, but this idea of, um, being a good guest. Right. Um, I think when we talk only think of Christianity and we think of, you know, [00:51:00] hospitality is like a huge Christian virtue and we have to, you know, um, set the table and invite folks to the table and, you know, whatever.
Um, but, but there's something about being a guest at someone else's table at an unfamiliar table, um, with no motives, you know, other than listening and learning. And I think that that's something that, you know, I've, I've wrestled with, you know, as someone who ha you know, carries varying levels of privilege, someone who's educated and, and, um, even, you know, my light-skin privilege and so many privileges that I I have.
And, uh, I think for me, it's constantly looking to see how I can just be a guest, how I can allow other people to love me and teach me and serve me. And not just anyone, but of course, you know, folks or places or people who, who are. Think of myself as their guests, you know, I think in Christian culture, we, um, there's so much hierarchy, you know, and there's so much, yeah.
We want to position ourselves as those, those with wisdom or the, you know, the teachers and [00:52:00] the leaders and the ones that are, you know, in, in evangelical world who are supposed to convert and all the things right. Um, but yeah. So how can we be a good guest? And I think so much, you know, about imagine if the colonizers, when they arrived to this country were just good guests, you know, like we're just like a guest in a, in a place that, in a setting that wasn't their own, you know, and I think, uh, by grandmother, I think about how she was constantly setting her own tables.
I mean, they were her tables and we were all guests at her table. And we would come to her house and, you know, and she set the tone, she set the pace, you know, and we just sat there and we received from her and I, and I see that in the life of Jesus, you know, Jesus gives and receives, you know, Jesus, he's, he's a guests of unfamiliar tables, tables all the time, you know, and all kinds of homes and with all kinds of people.
And so I guess, yeah, for me and, you know, and, and for, for me, as someone, as I mentioned, That does hold [00:53:00] privileges. Something that I like to to think about is, well, who, you know, who am I learning from? And not just in a sense of like, sure. I can read all these great books, but like, whose table am I sitting at?
That's not my own. That's some familiar to me that I can receive from.
Randy: Yeah. That helps. Yep. I love that part in your book where you talk about. How we think we're doing a great service to marginalized people when they, and we invite them to our table, but actually maybe we should be going to their table, right?
Kat: Yeah. Like it's, it's in the name of love or the name of Christianity and the name of Jesus. Like here, I set this table for you. So leave your table that you've already set and come sit at mine, you know? And I think that that's, I think flipping that power dynamic. Is, um, there's something there's something vulnerable about it there, but yeah, I mean, there's a, there's a flipping of power when we just leave our tables and go join the marginalized that there's,
Randy: I'm hearing Philippians two and the incarnation and what you're talking about.
So I think there's [00:54:00] something to it. It's really good.
Kyle: Yeah. I do have one nerdy question. That it's not on the outline that we don't have. You don't have to put in. I'm just curious. So on, back on the, this is a way of doing theology, so that's the part of the book I find the most. Interesting. So would it be more accurate to say, put on your sort of theologian cap, I guess, um, or maybe you never took it off?
I don't know. So would it be more accurate to say that what your abuela is doing is itself theology? Or that it's a source of theology so that a theologian could use it as in a similar way. They would use the mystical experience of some Saint who never thought of even doing theology at all. Right. So is our, is our like, um, narrativizing it and reflecting on it and struggling with it, is that the theology or is the living itself?
The theology, and if the [00:55:00] answer is the living itself, then the next question is where are the boundary.
Kat: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think, I think it could be both, you know, I like to say that, um, you know, if theology is the study of God, right. Um, then I think that, you know, We w we're we're studying, we're learning, we're reflecting on who God is and what we do.
I think that, um, you know, I like to say that a lot, everything we do is, is a sort of theology. Everything we do is, uh, thinking and studying about God. You know, I think us those, I mean, as, you know, divine beings, and I say that, you know, as people made in the image of God, or as people who yeah, have God in us, his holy spirit in us, I think that we, um, Yeah.
I think that what we do is, uh, is, uh, it's a theologizing, but I also think that, yeah, the second thing that you mentioned that is a source of theology, I think that we can, um, look at that to, I guess, extract theology. I don't know if that's the [00:56:00] right way to say it, but I think it could be. I don't know if that is helpful.
Yeah,
Randy: no, I'm sure I like it.
Kyle: Yeah. I didn't have an opinion when I asked it is fine with me,
Randy: but the book is I will lead to faith. What women on the margins teach us about wisdom, persistence, and strength. Armas. Thank you so much for joining us. I hope everyone listening and all their family buy this book because it's wonderful and it's really, really important.
So thank you for writing it. Thank you for joining us. Yeah,
Kat: thank you so much. That means so much to me. And thank you both of you for engaging with it and reading it and yeah. Asking such great questions. I'm always so happy to hear how folks think and engage with it. So thank you.
Elliot: Thanks for listening to a pastor and a philosopher. Walk into a bar. You hope you enjoyed the episode. And if you did, please rate, review the podcast. Before you close your app, you can also share the episode with friends or family. With the links from our social media [00:57:00] pages, gain insight, access, extra perks, and more at patrion.com/pastor and floss for we're so grateful for your support of the podcast until next time, this has been pastor and philosopher, walk into a bar.
You guys know the story behind the WhistlePig moniker, dude. No. You do Henry Lyndon Barker. The patriarch is making this up
Randy: on the spot. We're giving Elliot a really hard time in the state. Go ahead. If you
Elliot: don't, if you don't want
Randy: to know, please, please, please continue making the story up. Okay. So
Elliot: the original distiller, he had a pig with a deformed.
And now I believe it like, so to where instead of like your oil zone, it whistled, what did it sound like? It
Kyle: was like kind of a whistle sound. Can you do it?
Randy: I wasn't there you're punking us right now.
Elliot: I wasn't there to hear the whistles, [00:58:00] but what the pig got out, ran into the distillery, knocked down a bunch of barrels and like, so pig comes whistling out of the distillery.
Randy: You're not
Elliot: here. And this, this was like the origin of WhistlePig you're serious.