This is a fun one, friends.
In this episode, we chat with Sameer and Sharad Yadav - identical twin brothers who are a pastor and a philosopher. No, really.
Sameer is a theologian and a philosopher who teaches religious studies at Westmont College in Santa Barbara, CA, and Sharad is Lead Pastor of Bread and Wine, a church in Portland, OR. We chatted about so much - theology, philosophy, the current reality and future of the church, mysticism, wonder, mystery, and apophatic spirituality, just to name a few. Also, we laughed. A lot. These guys are a snarky, irreverent riot.
We tasted the incredible Elliot mead from Manic Meadery in Crown Point, IN. It's joy in a cup.
Content note: this episode contains some strong language that may not be suitable for children.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
This is a fun one, friends.
In this episode, we chat with Sameer and Sharad Yadav - identical twin brothers who are a pastor and a philosopher. No, really.
Sameer is a theologian and a philosopher who teaches religious studies at Westmont College in Santa Barbara, CA, and Sharad is Lead Pastor of Bread and Wine, a church in Portland, OR. We chatted about so much - theology, philosophy, the current reality and future of the church, mysticism, wonder, mystery, and apophatic spirituality, just to name a few. Also, we laughed. A lot. These guys are a snarky, irreverent riot.
We tasted the incredible Elliot mead from Manic Meadery in Crown Point, IN. It's joy in a cup.
Content note: this episode contains some strong language that may not be suitable for children.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
00:02
so in the interview that you're about to
00:04
hear one of our guests mentions a thing
00:06
that he wrote on facebook and we never
00:08
actually got to talk about specifically
00:10
what that was but i want to read it for
00:12
you now to launch off the episode
00:14
so this is sharad yadav
00:18
if kierkegaard is right and all
00:20
distinctions between the many different
00:22
kinds of love are essentially abolished
00:24
by christianity
00:25
then the beauty of that vision which
00:27
entices me to follow the breadcrumbs of
00:29
joy found in its daily foreshadowing in
00:32
casually spoken kindnesses routine
00:35
dignities regular human regard
00:37
actually invites an impossible burden
00:40
into my life
00:41
if i were to stoop to look at the
00:43
stained and dilapidated face piled on
00:46
top of the crumpled garbage lying
00:47
against the bus stop
00:49
only to see my father
00:51
or to spy two police officers fist
00:53
bumping one another with sickening
00:54
bravado after dislocating an elderly
00:57
alzheimer's patient's shoulder
00:59
only to recognize my own brother and
01:00
sister
01:02
and on and on multiplied by every
01:03
conceivable human failure and tragedy
01:06
how would life cease to be a horror
01:09
why would anyone willingly thaw that
01:11
blessed insensitivity which allows us to
01:14
live with such ubiquitous pain
01:16
christ's passion is the only version of
01:18
love that seems to notice that when you
01:20
open yourself to the world it will
01:22
crucify you
01:24
after having fallen in love with his
01:25
vision i feel doomed to the necessity of
01:28
it because i'm wedded to the hope of it
01:31
i very often find that to be a misery
01:34
not a joy
01:35
when i hear peter's words to whom else
01:37
should we go for you have the words of
01:39
life it's hard for me not to sympathize
01:42
with the tragic desperation of that
01:44
sentiment
01:45
the idea of human brotherhood no longer
01:47
warms my heart as much as it terrifies
01:50
me with its awesome emotional demands
01:55
[Music]
01:58
welcome to a pastor and philosopher
02:00
walking to a bar today on the show we're
02:02
talking with a couple of guys that i've
02:03
been wanting to have on the show for a
02:05
long time and was fortunate enough to
02:06
get them both on simultaneously and that
02:08
is sameer and sharad yadav who are
02:11
identical twin brothers one of them is a
02:13
pastor in portland the other is a
02:15
theologian in santa barbara california
02:18
but also basically a philosopher he
02:20
works on issues that are very
02:22
philosophical so they're basically the
02:24
perfect pair of people to have on our
02:26
show yeah and this is just a really
02:27
delightful but also profound
02:29
conversation that we're going to have so
02:31
you're in for a treat yeah and i mean
02:34
super fun conversation i have i don't
02:36
think i've left that much at an episode
02:38
during an episode uh yet and also just
02:41
want to say there is a little bit of
02:43
a little bit of swearing so you might
02:44
want if you're listening in the car with
02:46
your kids
02:47
wait or put on put on ear buds but yeah
02:50
get ready it's a fun episode yeah good
02:52
stuff and we have some fun to drink
02:54
today too that i'm really excited about
02:55
so
02:56
i texted elliot today randomly asking
02:58
him when his birthday was and it turns
03:00
out that it's in like what four days
03:02
yeah so i've been sitting on this i
03:04
bought it specifically for you because
03:06
it's called elliott
03:09
so this is amazing this is the first
03:11
mead we've had on the show so not a beer
03:13
not a whiskey not a wine i'm excited
03:15
this is some people claim the oldest
03:17
beverage humans have ever made i don't
03:19
know if there's good evidence that it's
03:21
actually older than wine or beer but
03:23
maybe it is i don't know dr pepper
03:25
basically
03:26
yeah other than dr pepper the oldest
03:28
beverage basically every country that
03:30
has a long history has some version of
03:32
mead in there in their history uh
03:35
basically just a fermented honey
03:37
beverage so you can think of it as wine
03:39
but made from honeys and honey instead
03:41
of grapes uh so what we have in front of
03:43
us is from a place called manic meadery
03:46
in crown point indiana and this is a
03:48
melomell which means it's made with
03:50
fruit so this is a blueberry meat and
03:53
i'm gonna i'm gonna say something strong
03:54
here say something extreme but i think
03:57
mead particularly melamels are the best
04:00
tasting things in existence
04:03
now i haven't had this one so i can't i
04:06
can't make that claim for this one but
04:08
i've had meads that i would take over
04:10
any whiskey
04:12
any wine any beer the last thing i want
04:15
to have in my mouth when i die
04:17
is a mead
04:18
shaking
04:20
so so this one's called elliot happy
04:22
birthday yeah
04:24
cheer cheers
04:26
i have never had a meat
04:28
i've had a mead but it was the what's
04:31
what's the fermented honey in water and
04:32
that's it just traditional yeah it
04:34
doesn't really have a fancy name i've
04:35
had a traditional meat i want to sit and
04:37
smell this before i before i yeah
04:42
just crazy
04:43
oh i want a i want like air freshener
04:46
that smells like this this is just
04:49
it smells like summer
04:51
and wild flowers and like honey ish i
04:55
mean it's i could just smell this you
04:57
want to taste this
04:59
when you die i want to just
05:00
smell this when i die yeah
05:02
so they say that um this is one pound of
05:05
blueberries and half a pound of honey
05:07
for every bottle say that again whoa a
05:09
pound of blueberries and half a pound of
05:10
honey per bottle that's nice i use
05:12
orange blossom honey this is delightful
05:15
orange blossom honey yeah but it's waste
05:17
so for all of that concentrated flavor
05:20
in in this bottle i would never imagine
05:22
it because it's very subtle like it's
05:25
yeah even if you use honey and cooking
05:27
often it can overpower the dish you it's
05:29
the only thing you get you can tell
05:30
there's honey in here but not that much
05:32
honey that's oh yeah i'm insane yeah and
05:34
it's pretty expensive running too this
05:36
is such a sensual experience i mean i'm
05:39
telling you man
05:40
you lift the glass to your mouth and you
05:41
just
05:42
your world gets lightened by the aroma
05:45
and then you taste it and it's
05:47
it's less than you think you're gonna be
05:49
getting but it's just right yeah this is
05:52
it's really impossible to describe a
05:54
good metal mill to somebody who's not
05:56
had one
05:57
i mean it's it's like an after this is a
05:59
dessert one oh for sure for sure and
06:01
this is 14 so it comes out like a strong
06:03
wine basically and it's so swirly yeah
06:06
you have to be careful
06:08
i'm in love and this is a still mead
06:10
which means it's not carbonated as you
06:12
can see it's just um kind of viscous and
06:14
it would be interesting if this was
06:16
carbonated so there are
06:18
there are carbonated meats and yeah um i
06:20
don't prefer them but i've had some
06:21
pretty good ones too
06:23
oh someday i'm gonna make
06:25
something i'm gonna make that highlight
06:26
reel of all of randy's reaction noises
06:28
just back to back to back
06:30
that'll be a special i'll decide this is
06:32
a bad idea and i will not save it
06:35
special patreon release randy going
06:37
for an hour
06:41
i don't care what you say
06:43
this is the meat exists because god
06:45
loves us i mean for sure dude for sure
06:47
gosh yeah
06:49
okay yeah you're when it's my birthday
06:51
do i get a bottle of that um
06:54
i cannot give you something yeah yeah
06:57
i have no joke probably 50 bottles of
06:59
meat
07:00
so yeah
07:02
it's a little bit of a problem all right
07:04
so you're very overstated i would prefer
07:07
this to any whiskey any bourbon
07:11
i i don't know if i totally agree but
07:13
now
07:14
now what you said isn't ridiculous to me
07:16
yeah it's good yeah
07:18
yeah and this is i mean this is good and
07:20
this is i think the meat that put them
07:21
on the mat
07:22
yeah that was their most popular to
07:24
begin with and they have a bunch of
07:25
versions of it like
07:26
breakfast elliot which has like coffee
07:28
in it and i've got a chocolate one at
07:30
home so it's like chocolate and blue i
07:31
don't want that but like on the level of
07:33
needs that i've had this is pretty
07:35
middle of the road so all right so i
07:37
mean
07:38
i don't i don't want to enter into your
07:40
binary world of having to like compete
07:42
against whiskeys and beers and wines
07:44
this is just pure
07:46
delight in a cup and a lot of needs are
07:48
aged in like really nice whiskey barrels
07:50
and stuff yeah so we've already talked
07:52
about it way too long so let's finish up
07:53
the tasting to say if you find a mead
07:56
buy it
07:58
yeah
07:59
cheers yeah cheers
08:04
well sameer and sharad yadav thanks so
08:06
much for being on a pastor and
08:08
philosopher walking to a bar
08:09
thanks man thanks great for having us
08:12
awesome
08:13
can both of you tell us just a little
08:15
bit about your background or who you are
08:17
why you're why are you on the show
08:19
other than that i begged you good
08:21
question
08:22
why are we on show yeah
08:26
my press agent said this would be good
08:27
for my uh for i mean i gave you guys all
08:29
the head shots
08:30
[Laughter]
08:32
but no we i think it's
08:34
finding out about your show is pretty
08:36
cool because it's sort of
08:38
the title of it is like the description
08:40
of our relationships
08:43
so it's kind of cool yeah so smear and i
08:46
we obviously
08:48
sucked nutrients from the same placenta
08:50
growing up
08:52
and uh we were yeah yeah you know
08:55
identical twins monozygotic so same dna
08:59
same infirmities same devastating good
09:02
looks
09:04
i think the the conversion experience
09:06
that i had in college is kind of where
09:08
all this started and then shortly after
09:11
my conversion experience uh sameer sort
09:14
of said i guess i'll walk in here and
09:15
take a look around and he he and i both
09:18
in different ways i think have been
09:21
trying to prosecute what it means to be
09:23
a christian or why we think it would
09:26
that would be something we would want to
09:27
do
09:28
as our career choices so that's the
09:30
sphere in which we work out our
09:32
anxieties and our own questions about
09:34
whether any of this stuff makes any
09:36
sense and so yeah sameer went the
09:39
academic route and i went the pastoral
09:40
route and yeah and we took a little
09:42
detour into a uh testicle crushing
09:46
fundamentalism
09:48
so anyway but yeah we just got one left
09:51
i guess
09:54
being twins we can also be donors for
09:56
each other so that's pretty cool it
09:57
worked out it worked out yeah
10:00
yeah so i mean my you know one one kind
10:03
of feature of that story is that my
10:05
parents immigrated
10:07
to the united states from from india and
10:10
so
10:11
and then moved to kansas and from kansas
10:12
to idaho and then we were born and
10:13
raised in rural idaho
10:15
and so our our uh upbringing
10:18
was one marked by a sort of profound
10:21
questions of belonging and and uh sort
10:24
of existential issues and and struggle
10:27
that raised religious questions i think
10:29
both of us
10:30
were unusually
10:32
contemplative reflective types for just
10:35
in part in response to the pressures of
10:37
the kind of environment in which we were
10:40
growing up and so
10:41
a lot of working out
10:43
of various questions about what is life
10:46
in the world and all of everything about
10:48
we're we're shaped in a very particular
10:50
kind of social context you know in which
10:53
it's easier to ask those questions when
10:54
things when pieces don't fit properly so
10:57
so i think that that's something that
10:58
we've continued in our own different
11:00
ways to reflect on and has shaped our
11:03
respective vocations in perhaps
11:05
different ways but also overlapping ways
11:07
that that we continue to work out in our
11:08
relationship over time yeah yeah well i
11:10
would love for you to take us into that
11:12
a little bit if you're willing to i mean
11:14
you said it sharad you're a pastor sameer
11:17
you're a i'm going to say philosopher
11:19
even though i think your degree is
11:20
technically in theology but you wrote
11:21
your dissertation trained theologian who
11:23
does some philosophy of religion and
11:25
sure yeah anybody that wrote a
11:26
dissertation on william alston as a
11:27
philosopher
11:29
in my opinion so uh
11:32
yeah there you go and you signed up yeah
11:34
and philosophy wilfred sellers is in his
11:36
marriage vows
11:38
he's definitely a philosopher so yeah
11:41
wife and family what they have to deal
11:42
with nice
11:43
nice so um
11:45
have there been areas where
11:48
sameer where sharad's pastoral
11:51
gifting or vocation has actually formed
11:53
your scholarship
11:55
same thing in the other direction what
11:57
what take us into your conversations a
11:58
little bit if you if you can
12:00
i i would say that i thought about this
12:03
a little bit in anticipation of of our
12:05
conversation and it's such a difficult
12:07
question to answer because
12:09
i don't think of the way in which
12:11
sharad's ministry and
12:13
pastoral
12:14
vocation informs
12:17
my work as being a really
12:20
discreet kind of thing it's much more
12:23
like the kind of work he does is
12:25
informed by
12:27
his own attempting to take seriously
12:30
his christian confession and to help
12:32
others to think about what it might mean
12:35
to take that seriously and to be
12:36
part of that discernment together in a
12:39
way that has practical stakes so that
12:41
one is
12:42
invested in the answer to that question
12:44
in the way that one
12:45
prosecutes the everyday features of
12:47
one's life and i think that that
12:50
kind of vocation is is one that overlaps
12:53
substantially with my own so
12:55
i think that one dimension to attempting
12:58
to to take one's christian confession
13:00
seriously and to help others to venture
13:03
to make a venture as to what that might
13:04
look like in their lives one one
13:06
dimension of that is is intellectual and
13:08
educative so
13:10
there's a natural connection to the kind
13:12
of work that i do as a theologian i mean
13:13
to be a theologian is just to have a
13:16
vested interest in the truth of the
13:19
subject matter that you're that you're
13:21
investigating in this case questions
13:23
about god's relationship to the world
13:25
and stuff like that and so yeah there
13:27
are there are those questions get
13:29
manifest differently in this context but
13:31
it's in in the context of doing academic
13:33
work or whatever
13:34
but there's a sense in which teaching
13:36
students is a form of is a kind of
13:39
spiritual formation by way of
13:42
contemplation
13:43
and i think that there's something about
13:45
that work that is deeply resonant with
13:47
the pastoral work and the and the
13:49
particularly the kind of pastoral work
13:50
that my brother does so
13:52
so i think that but let me put it this
13:54
way though once practical vested
13:56
interest in the questions one one asks
13:58
as a as an academic sometimes have to be
14:00
backgrounded rather than foregrounded
14:03
right they're not like what you're
14:04
actually investigating they're just kind
14:06
of a program running in the background
14:08
whereas it's front and center for what
14:09
sharad does
14:11
and so when we talk it has the ability
14:14
to be a front and center conversation
14:16
that is
14:17
explicit like why does this actually
14:19
matter how does this actually work and
14:21
those kinds of questions so that's the
14:22
kind of stuff we talk about
14:24
yeah i think that's i like the
14:25
background foreground kind of thing
14:26
because i think that that works pretty
14:29
well as an analogy
14:30
to how sameer works for me too i mean you
14:32
know what he's describing i think is
14:34
it's like all of the work that that
14:36
sameer does in theology and race and in
14:39
apophaticism and mysticism and and
14:41
concepts of wonder and all this work he
14:43
does
14:44
is deeply existentially motivated you
14:47
know it's like it's it's rooted not just
14:50
in who he is but in he's not just doing
14:53
conceptual analysis
14:54
as a kind of like gymnastic fun you know
14:58
it's he's got real
15:00
stakes in the questions that he's trying
15:02
to to come and he takes him pretty
15:04
seriously and i think maybe our
15:06
relationship uh connects with each other
15:08
over those existential concerns over
15:12
because neither one of us want to
15:13
believe [ __ ] you know
15:14
and i think
15:16
his scholarly work then sort of like is
15:19
standing in the background of my i kind
15:21
of think about like the album cover of
15:23
in fear of a black planet you know like
15:24
that public anime album where the guys
15:26
are just standing in the background with
15:28
their sunglasses on and that so every
15:29
time i am preaching or teaching or
15:32
counseling i've got
15:34
i've got sameer
15:36
in
15:36
standing in the background guarding the
15:38
door as a kind of is what i am saying
15:41
does it really make any sense
15:43
is it in good conscience something that
15:46
i can commend to somebody and not be a
15:48
kind of used car salesman you know
15:51
and i think sameer is wanting to not be
15:54
just a kind of academic fraud really you
15:58
know like somebody who's engaging this
16:00
work
16:01
for whatever the vicious reasons might
16:03
be for that to build a name or a career
16:06
or just to publish for his own
16:08
self-satisfaction i mean there's deeper
16:10
things at stake and i think we both help
16:12
shape the way we come at it with people
16:15
yeah order this descend into mere puzzle
16:17
solving you know like we're just sort of
16:19
like oh here's some something that you
16:21
can kind of fiddle with and and work a
16:24
thing so you can crank an article out of
16:26
it or something i mean that's not i'm
16:27
just not interested in that yeah and and
16:29
one of the but i to say i'm not
16:30
interested it doesn't mean i'm not
16:32
tempted to that but part of the part of
16:34
the anchoring of our relationship is to
16:37
keep keep a kind of focus on on the work
16:40
that religious questions actually do you
16:42
know like what work gets done by asking
16:45
and answering these questions
16:47
is that how it works for you guys i mean
16:48
do you have a similar dynamic with both
16:50
of you well we didn't grow up we didn't
16:52
share a womb
16:55
a little bit different yeah i mean
16:56
randy's my pastor so
16:58
we just had a bunch of conversations for
17:00
several years about intellectual and
17:02
theological things and then we started
17:04
doing these q and a's at our church
17:06
where i would emcee and then kind of
17:07
help out with some of the more academic
17:09
questions and we realized we had a nice
17:11
dynamic and people told us we should
17:12
have a podcast so here we are
17:15
it's really not that complicated
17:17
[Applause]
17:20
then we realized we could talk to people
17:21
like you by just asking so yeah
17:24
it pays for itself but i would say that
17:27
um
17:28
kyle's influence has
17:30
definitely in some some you know whether
17:32
they're smaller large ways influenced my
17:34
the way i teach and preach particularly
17:36
bringing like this idea of epistemic
17:38
humility is something that i wasn't in
17:40
my orb until kyle came into my world and
17:42
hopefully i had some innately in there
17:45
but um he's helped me pay attention a
17:46
lot more to it and also this idea of
17:49
certainty there's a number of things
17:51
that kyle and his philosophical
17:53
questions and
17:55
just dealing with what's real has really
17:57
really shaped and influenced and helped
17:59
me like look at things differently and
18:01
also make sure that i'm not talking
18:03
[ __ ] like you said yeah yeah right
18:05
on yeah that's really cool i think
18:07
that's the gift of it is that there's a
18:09
kind of i have a form of accountability
18:11
with sameer that i don't have with
18:13
anybody else you know likewise you know
18:15
one of the i recently
18:17
not terribly recently but there was like
18:18
this this theological journal online
18:20
journal called syndicate and one of the
18:22
things that they did was to do a kind of
18:23
study of the state of theological
18:26
academy contemporary state of the
18:27
academy and and and some of the problems
18:29
that that have arisen in relationship to
18:31
certain different kinds of confessions
18:32
schools where theology gets done and one
18:34
of the perennial things that that comes
18:36
up in in conversations about theological
18:38
work is the divide between church and
18:40
academy you know so that you have
18:41
academic theologians and then you have
18:42
like actual christian constituents you
18:45
know and constituencies and that the
18:46
never the twain shall meet you know
18:48
except except if if you have
18:50
constituencies who are putting a drag on
18:53
confessional institutions to limit
18:56
academic freedom in ways that are
18:57
problematic for those people or you have
18:59
on the other hand you have a despising
19:01
of the church by the by the um the
19:03
theologian as some kind of lowbrow
19:05
sphere of people who don't know what
19:07
they're talking about or doing and so
19:09
it's really the kind of sense of mutual
19:11
responsibility to one another in terms
19:13
of academic theology and the life of the
19:14
church is voluntary yeah it's kind of
19:17
voluntary but there's a sense in which
19:19
my relationship to my brother is
19:23
you know what involuntary mean like yeah
19:25
and so there's a kind of there's a kind
19:27
of accountability in that that is
19:28
something that that i think would be
19:30
great if it were it could be propagated
19:32
more widely you know
19:33
yeah i've mentioned several times on the
19:35
show that i have a text thread that with
19:37
a couple other philosophers that we've
19:38
got going for probably five or six years
19:40
and it's it's something similar to that
19:42
like i tell my students that philosophy
19:44
gives you a superpower of [ __ ]
19:46
detection yeah yeah see through anything
19:48
but like it's nice when it's invited
19:51
yeah yeah yeah exactly to know that
19:54
someone's gonna call it like i'm you
19:55
know i'm probably i might get a text
19:57
after this episode from one of those
19:58
dudes telling me that thing you said was
20:00
really stupid
20:02
my detector was going crazy when i yeah
20:12
[Laughter]
20:14
i feel like i've been in your heads for
20:15
the last week i've been reading your
20:17
article sameer i've been listening to a
20:19
bunch of your uh sermons sharad oh my
20:21
god yeah yeah just to kind of prepare to
20:23
know all sorts of questions to ask so
20:25
i've got a few that i want to touch
20:26
things that you've written on sameer and
20:28
things that you've said sharad and i'd
20:30
love to get your take on both of them
20:32
even if it's not something you yourself
20:33
said so so one kind of big question that
20:35
i want to ask you sameer is
20:37
and it's as general as i can make it
20:39
what is theology
20:41
so so you wrote a paper uh where you're
20:44
kind of giving what you call a meta meta
20:46
dogmatics you have to go into all that
20:47
but like uh just very basically for
20:50
listeners who haven't really thought
20:51
about it here let me frame it this way
20:54
yeah there are people who call
20:55
themselves theologians who are catholic
20:58
protestant jewish muslim feminist
21:00
womanist liberation theologians analytic
21:02
theologians post-modernists even
21:04
atheists okay we had a famous atheistic
21:06
theologian at my alma mater so uh what
21:09
is it that all those people are doing
21:12
that is the same thing
21:14
if there if there is such a thing and
21:16
then the second part to the question is
21:18
how is that thing different from what
21:20
philosophers do because i know you're
21:21
very informed on the philosophical
21:23
methods as well yeah yeah
21:25
um so i mean
21:26
the i don't think that this is actually
21:28
that difficult question
21:30
which which is a good sign that i
21:31
probably got it wrong
21:34
but
21:35
but um i mean i just looked it up on
21:37
wikipedia
21:38
right there
21:40
webster's defines theology
21:53
my intro to christian doctrine students
21:55
you know that i teach every
21:56
two sections every semester
21:58
and when i that's how i start the
21:59
classes talking about what is theology
22:01
and what i say is all it is to do
22:03
theology is to ask what must or might be
22:06
the case if some
22:07
story is correct
22:09
a particular story about in the case of
22:11
christian theology it's a story about
22:13
god's relationship to the world and and
22:15
a story of creation redemption and that
22:17
kind of thing other kind of theologies
22:19
are theologies about god so theology can
22:21
only be done by asking what muster might
22:23
be the case if some story about god is
22:25
correct right but then it's just working
22:28
out some kind of ontological commitments
22:30
or like what are you committed to in
22:31
virtue of of some sad story
22:34
and and that's something that anyone who
22:36
has a story about god can do
22:39
right so anybody who has a story about
22:40
god and and what we might have to do
22:42
with god or what we don't have to do
22:44
with god or whether the concept of god
22:46
commits you to the existence of god or
22:48
not or whatever anybody can can try to
22:51
work out the implications of what muster
22:53
might be the case that story is correct
22:55
and that's all it is to do theology is
22:57
to is to think hard about that and
23:00
theology is therefore something that is
23:02
about
23:03
ontological commitment but depending on
23:05
one story about god it might also
23:08
involve certain kinds of other kinds of
23:10
commitments practical commitments you
23:12
know what must
23:13
or might i
23:14
have to do if this story is correct so
23:17
there's there's other kinds of
23:18
commitments other than the ontological
23:20
ones but those ones tend to be the
23:21
centering questions in
23:23
in the work of theology yeah didn't you
23:25
say a few minutes ago though that to be
23:27
a theologian is to have some kind of
23:29
practical investment in the questions
23:31
that you're studying it is it is to be a
23:33
christian theologian is to do that right
23:35
to be a christian theologian but i don't
23:36
presume to say what but you want you
23:38
want me to answer the question what is
23:39
theology in in the most generic across
23:41
the board sense that might be true and i
23:44
don't think that practical investments
23:45
are a given for any every kind of
23:48
theology i can write i can imagine
23:50
certain kinds of theology in which the
23:52
practical question is of little or no
23:53
consequence at all i don't i wouldn't
23:55
now given my commitments about what
23:57
theology is i might say that's bad
23:58
theology but i wouldn't say it's not
24:00
theology at all
24:01
that it doesn't count as theology sure
24:03
and so the second part of that question
24:05
sorry about the philosophy how does it
24:06
relate to philosophy i mean philosophy
24:09
can help us work at the the notions of
24:11
ontological commitment involved it can
24:13
help us with the inferential work that
24:16
that might be involved it can be a way
24:18
of helping us to understand what the
24:20
credences and epistemic status is of the
24:23
inferential work we're doing and trying
24:24
to do that work right it can there's
24:26
there's all kinds of ways in which
24:27
philosophy is useful for that task but
24:29
one can imagine doing philosophical work
24:32
where what one is trying to do is not
24:34
necessarily that task of trying to say
24:36
what muster might be the case that some
24:37
story about god is right
24:39
so so that so there can be a distinction
24:41
therefore between philosophy and
24:42
theology and and i mean there's some
24:44
version of this kind of this kind of way
24:46
of making the distinction is i think
24:47
what you find in aquinas so i think
24:49
there is a legitimate kind of philosophy
24:51
theology distinction but it's not a
24:53
mutual exclusivity kind of thing because
24:55
obviously doing the work of theology
24:56
kind of propels you into doing
24:58
philosophical kind of things reasoning
25:00
for example right so yeah and that that
25:02
commitment to a story that you begin
25:05
with trying to work out the coherence of
25:07
that of those commitments inside some
25:09
story is itself even a kind of approach
25:12
to theology a kind of post-literal
25:13
approach to theology and i think you
25:16
could even
25:17
step back and say
25:19
just in the most generic probably
25:20
unhelpful sense i guess but theology is
25:23
just it's the discipline of trying not
25:25
to say dumb things about god you know
25:28
it's like
25:29
you know how do we talk about this
25:32
you know
25:33
whatever it is you mean by it what how
25:35
do we talk about god and so you can see
25:37
why theology would be super important
25:39
for ministers i mean it's like that's
25:41
their job they have to talk about god
25:42
all the time and so theologians are
25:46
working out in different maybe narrative
25:48
contexts different amongst different
25:50
communities how to make sense of their
25:53
own communities claims about those
25:55
things um how it works inside those
25:57
communities so you sort of just answered
25:59
my next question to you which is the
26:01
version of the question i just asked
26:02
sameer like what how do you understand
26:04
the vocation of a pastor and i'm
26:05
particularly interested in
26:07
some i've talked about with friends for
26:08
a long time what is is there an
26:10
expertise involved in past years
26:13
so what is it um because i think pastors
26:16
generally speaking are hacks at other
26:19
things that they should have probably
26:21
done instead
26:24
middle managers they are bureaucrats
26:27
they are marketing people they are
26:30
musicians they are stand-up comedians
26:33
they are
26:34
fill in the blank they that's probably
26:36
what they should have done instead but
26:37
they just kind of try to hose the jesus
26:40
juice on whatever it is they
26:41
they you know whatever thing that they
26:44
that floats their boat vocationally
26:46
which means that most pastors i think
26:48
don't have a sense for what they do in
26:50
any distinction from one of those other
26:53
vocations it's almost like we're all of
26:54
those things we're we're bad
26:57
therapists and theologians and etc
27:00
anyway yeah maybe some of my
27:02
self-loathing's coming into that answer
27:04
but also
27:05
uh i think there is a historical
27:07
definition of what a pastor is that
27:09
actually is the only reason i'm
27:11
interested in it and that definition has
27:14
to do with facilitating a person's union
27:17
with god so i i think a pastor's
27:21
vocation
27:22
actually makes them mostly irrelevant to
27:25
all of those other things other people
27:27
are better at those things other
27:29
people's jobs are to do those things but
27:31
what i want to do is to be the one
27:33
person who has no agenda for your life
27:36
that's not trying to cram you into
27:38
anything and my job is to pay attention
27:41
to you
27:42
and to pay attention to the divine life
27:45
inside of you and to help draw your own
27:48
attention to the workings of god inside
27:51
the shape of your life however it's
27:53
given oh that's nice
27:55
so and that work is not
27:58
deeply sought after
28:01
not a lot of people are in line wanting
28:03
that work most people
28:05
sort of i think want a pastor to
28:07
answer unanswerable questions they want
28:10
pastors to
28:11
give
28:12
vision and direction that takes the
28:14
responsibility off of them to actually
28:16
know what god is doing in their own life
28:18
they want pastors to in some ways
28:21
take up the
28:23
unique
28:24
burdens and struggles that come that
28:27
attend christian christian vocation
28:29
christian belonging
28:30
and sort of chew that food for people
28:33
and then spit it spit it back into their
28:35
into their mouths or these days just
28:37
affirm what all the cable news
28:39
tells them to think right like from
28:40
everything that they believe right
28:41
already right so that i i stated in a
28:44
very highly individualistic sense that
28:46
this this contemplative work of
28:48
spiritual direction prayer and attending
28:50
to the voice of god inside of people's
28:52
lives but also there's a communal work
28:53
to it which is that the the job of the
28:56
people of god together is to provide
28:58
some kind of corporate witness to the
29:00
life of god in the world today so what
29:02
just like a theologian's job is
29:04
intellectually to say
29:05
how
29:06
is this story coherent what ontological
29:09
commitments
29:10
would i have to make in order for this
29:12
store to believe this story
29:14
a a church is a living community that
29:17
says what would this community have to
29:19
be like if any of this story was true
29:23
you know what what
29:24
would the shape of our
29:26
relationships be what would the shape of
29:28
our financial commitments be what would
29:30
the shape of our
29:31
emotional and imaginative lives our
29:34
vocations all of that is wrapped up in
29:37
inhabiting
29:38
this story of god's redemption in christ
29:42
and that's one of the scary things about
29:43
being
29:45
christian
29:46
and supposing that christianity is
29:47
correct it's that one of its truth
29:51
conditions or satisfaction condition or
29:53
the condition for the possibility of
29:54
truth or christianity is that a certain
29:56
kind of community exists yeah or or can
29:59
exist yeah and if it can't or doesn't
30:01
then christianity is false it's false
30:03
that's right so what
30:05
if that's right but if that's right it's
30:07
a natural joint between the work of
30:08
theology and the work of pastoral
30:09
ministry right because yeah because of
30:11
the attempt to figure out what are the
30:13
truth conditions and that that's why i
30:14
think sameer works for me
30:20
just an aide in my on my cabinet i feel
30:23
like you know
30:25
the fact is all of the truth conditions
30:28
of christian belief
30:29
rest
30:30
on some living breathing incarnate
30:33
community that says look what sort of
30:36
life is possible because there is a god
30:38
and he is like the crucified jesus you
30:41
know yep
30:42
uh i want to get your name right sharad
30:45
sharad how do i uh well let's what
30:47
we're going to have to do is conference
30:48
call my mom so you guys
30:51
just hold on yeah hold on no so i i say
30:54
sharad it i've said sharad since
30:55
kindergarten because that's what other
30:57
kids say and uh they must be right so
31:00
there you go
31:01
but my name is actually pronounced sharad
31:05
and not even my wife will do it i mean
31:07
so i have
31:08
when i'm dead someday which is the other
31:11
job of a pastor to focus everyone on the
31:13
day of their own death
31:14
it's going to be really amazing to have
31:15
people come through the mic and speak
31:18
tearfully about me and say my name wrong
31:20
like everyone says
31:22
i i refuse to do it though
31:26
sharad meant so much to me
31:29
who's that
31:30
yeah nice sharad could you tell us just
31:33
tell us about your church oh sure yeah
31:36
so
31:37
this is a small
31:39
what was a non-denominational community
31:42
that was planted about 10 years ago
31:46
by
31:47
a group of independent
31:49
bible church type folks from arkansas
31:52
that came into portland to save all the
31:55
sodomites
31:58
and they they so they uh
32:00
they um they planted this church that
32:04
was really a pretty beautiful little
32:06
collection of intentional communities so
32:08
they didn't even meet on sunday mornings
32:10
really they just had a kind of network
32:12
of intentional communities that would
32:13
reach out to they moved to the poorest
32:14
neighborhoods and in the city and they
32:17
did really good work inviting people
32:18
into their homes into their lives they
32:20
you know the problem was that the the
32:23
burden on these home church leaders
32:25
which were you know mostly lay folks was
32:28
enormous it was just so much work that
32:30
it was just not sustainable and then
32:32
housing prices in portland will get your
32:34
ass kicked out of a neighborhood pretty
32:36
quick so you know you'll you'll get
32:38
priced out through rent increases and
32:40
things like that so having a church
32:42
organized around these communities
32:43
proved to be pretty difficult so it was
32:44
pretty tumultuous pretty emotionally
32:46
draining the main teaching pastor
32:48
stepped out around eight years ago just
32:51
totally burned out and i was in a church
32:54
in idaho that i had planted as a
32:55
personal therapy group for myself
32:58
and this church was doing fine we had a
33:00
handful of people that said hey
33:02
as long as you want to make this thing
33:04
work we will pay your salary so
33:07
so it was a sweet little time for me to
33:09
recover from the 12 years of bible
33:11
church craziness yeah that i had in this
33:13
fundamentalist environment and in that
33:15
little halfway house of safety and
33:18
respite i kind of felt like i think i'm
33:20
i'm probably ready to go do something
33:23
new again so i moved to portland i heard
33:25
about this church from friends of
33:27
friends kind of a thing they were in
33:29
some of the same networks and so yeah i
33:32
said here's all my baggage here's all my
33:34
doubts here's all my convictions that
33:36
differ from yours and here's why you
33:39
probably shouldn't hire me and then they
33:40
said
33:43
we could probably live with that and
33:45
then they they took me on so yeah right
33:48
now we we've just made a move to the
33:50
evangelical covenant church as a
33:52
denomination so i've been moving away
33:54
from a kind of conservative
33:56
evangelicalism bible church kind of
33:58
environment towards a more i think broad
34:01
embrace of the christian tradition and
34:03
so the ecc
34:04
was founded as a denomination that said
34:08
a credible conversion is all we need for
34:10
membership and that's it no doctrinal
34:14
gauntlet to run that's it and so so it
34:17
tries to embrace lots of different
34:19
convictions in one
34:21
in one family so we're trying to live
34:22
that out with five or so other covenant
34:25
churches in portland and yeah i mean
34:28
it's a mostly white church so
34:30
that's just like i grew up and well just
34:33
like i went to school and uh just like
34:35
you'll die and just like old though
34:38
no it's i it's sad in some ways i i
34:41
after george floyd died i've been
34:44
wrestling pretty deeply with how much
34:46
racial trauma sameer and i have both
34:48
experienced growing up and uh what it's
34:50
like to be in a white evangelical church
34:52
ministering so the beautiful thing about
34:54
this denomination is that they have a
34:56
very
34:57
wonderful multi-ethnic ministry in the
34:59
nation i mean they they're one of the
35:01
most diverse churches in the country
35:03
even though they're a smaller
35:04
denomination and my
35:06
coaches and supervisors they're all
35:08
chinese korean we have a a lot of
35:11
influential black pastors in our network
35:13
and yeah the ecc is great
35:16
great denomination i i want to ask both
35:18
of you because i don't know about you
35:20
sharad but i've been doing a lot of
35:23
like
35:24
big emotional emotive thinking about the
35:26
church these days and what we see in the
35:29
church what we see going on it's crazy
35:32
it's like the wild west and the church
35:34
in america and
35:36
churches are like basically cut in half
35:38
of what they were pre-coveted in many
35:40
ways and people aren't interested in the
35:42
church or people who are interested in
35:43
the church are the crazies there's you
35:45
know there's there's just so much going
35:46
on right now as you look at the
35:48
landscape of the american church right
35:49
now
35:50
tell us your thoughts what you think
35:52
about what you pray about what you you
35:53
know keeps you up at night or not
35:56
well fundamentally
35:58
man what keeps me up at night is whether
36:02
whether christianity has anything to
36:03
offer
36:04
that's what keeps me up at night i mean
36:06
you know it's the most fundamental
36:08
questions and when i look at the
36:09
american landscape of religion and
36:12
spirituality
36:13
you know i see lots of hopeful things
36:16
you know i ministered among a lot of
36:18
a lot of younger folks portland's not
36:20
quite what portlandia and the whole you
36:23
know where 20 year olds go to retire
36:25
kind of thing that the reputation it
36:27
kind of gained but it's but it is it is
36:30
a lot of young folks yeah it's kind of
36:32
like that
36:33
and
36:34
what's amazing is that
36:36
the phenomena of deconstruction and
36:38
de-churching that people are going
36:40
through
36:40
is largely
36:42
kind of ironically out of a desire to
36:44
preserve elements of the of the vision
36:46
of jesus that says if it's between that
36:50
and my religion then kind of [ __ ] my
36:53
religion i'm done i'm i'm you know
36:56
and uh and the hopefulness of that
36:58
is that
36:59
those folks
37:01
they take their neighbors
37:03
pretty seriously
37:04
you know
37:05
and they don't view their neighbors as a
37:08
vehicle
37:09
to getting to god or in chalking up
37:12
their their neighbors or their
37:14
conversions
37:15
as a kind of like the work of the church
37:17
they they have a much broader type of
37:20
fundamental commitment to justice in the
37:22
world and i think those things are
37:24
actually very very hopeful but the
37:26
problem is of course that the work of
37:28
the church is to organize
37:31
our lives
37:33
around not just that work but our
37:36
commitments to each other
37:37
and that's where it's so scary and
37:40
difficult i mean you know as you're a
37:42
pastor like you're making calls about
37:44
masks and when and how we can gather and
37:47
you have half the people saying bro it's
37:49
fear it's fear what about faith and then
37:52
you have other people saying you know
37:54
like i said i'll see it in 20 years like
37:57
we're living in the mad max thunderdome
37:59
and i probably will be pissing out at
38:01
church for a long time because it's just
38:03
too dangerous and you're supposed to
38:05
navigate these realities and and i have
38:08
lots of you know younger folks in our
38:10
church whose parents are
38:12
very
38:12
very conservative and they are not you
38:15
know
38:16
and so this line that runs down the
38:18
middle of churches in the middle of
38:20
families that are dividing people
38:22
against each other and i think our work
38:25
is to figure out how to love your enemy
38:28
without abandoning the most vulnerable
38:32
that's though that's the work
38:34
churches are man they're right in the
38:36
middle of it because
38:38
we're supposed to be
38:40
constantly with one eye on the most
38:42
vulnerable in our communities
38:44
drawing together
38:45
these folks who really don't trust or
38:47
like each other very much yeah and so i
38:50
think forgiveness
38:52
is the biggest most practical
38:54
and powerful work of the church in this
38:58
era it's like we have to minister
39:00
forgiveness forgiveness of sins
39:03
and that starts with each other
39:05
and i know it sounds super pollyanna but
39:06
it's like we're supposed to be the one
39:08
place
39:10
in a person's life that they're gonna
39:12
sit with the with such radical
39:15
difference that the only thing that
39:16
brings them together
39:17
is jesus so
39:20
i love seeing the ways in which that's
39:22
true in my church and i i cry and i stay
39:25
up at night thinking about all the ways
39:26
it's not yeah so me or any thoughts my
39:29
experience was
39:31
with students it very much echoes what
39:33
what chart's saying about what is
39:35
driving people away from church and what
39:38
is hopeful about even some of the exodus
39:41
is a is what's hopeful about it is is
39:44
reform or or some kind of recon
39:47
reconstruction
39:48
of christianity and what it what it's
39:51
about most basically about that that i
39:53
think we should have some hope in but i
39:56
also think that
39:57
i mean i guess who was it with sociology
39:59
like robert with now maybe who who talks
40:02
about american religion as really
40:05
uniquely
40:06
indexed to political affiliation
40:09
such that
40:11
you have a more strong predictor of
40:13
unity and disunity across political
40:16
rather than religious lines even even
40:18
than racial lines
40:20
yeah
40:21
right exactly so it's in a lot of ways a
40:23
unique kind of situation
40:26
in america the american church but it's
40:28
also in a lot of ways a hangover from a
40:30
kind of past that we're not really
40:32
willing to confront yeah
40:34
what keeps me up at night is just the
40:36
thing we were talking about earlier
40:38
about
40:38
whether the truth of christianity can be
40:40
sustained by the existence of
40:41
communities
40:43
that show that it actually isn't just bs
40:46
you know yeah yeah
40:47
and all it takes in order to
40:50
to be despairing about that is proximity
40:52
to the to
40:54
christians
40:54
[Laughter]
40:59
yeah and so and so the kind of hard work
41:02
that i think sharad's talking about the
41:03
hard work of forgiveness the hard work
41:05
of reconciliation that it's like when i
41:07
when i think about reconciliation
41:08
forgiveness and reparation which i think
41:10
has to be part of what we are talking
41:12
about we talk about reconciliation amen
41:13
amen we're talking about all that kind
41:14
of work it's like
41:16
some people hear that and they hear what
41:18
like what what sharad described as kind
41:20
of pollyannish kind of like oh
41:22
sentimentality of kind of whatever i
41:25
hear those words and i think of like
41:27
dismantling a nuclear weapon you know
41:29
what i mean like the shaking hands and
41:31
the plutonium you know not wanting
41:33
something to explode wow you know what i
41:35
mean um because
41:37
because the work of interpersonal
41:39
relationship
41:40
when it's sort of ramified by the kind
41:43
of context of polarization and so on
41:46
that work is something that is so
41:48
there's so much incentive that runs the
41:50
other way to give up on it and just to
41:52
draw up the battle lines and say no you
41:54
know because
41:55
i think one of the things that the need
41:58
for mutual forgiveness recovery mutual
42:00
submission to the the way of jesus you
42:02
know the mutual discernment about the
42:04
way of jesus you know
42:06
that work is so threatened by the both
42:09
scientism by the kind of like okay so
42:11
now let's come together and then here's
42:13
why we have to acknowledge
42:15
your
42:16
viewpoint and my viewpoint and they both
42:18
have to be preserved so that so that our
42:20
fundamental sense of security in our own
42:22
views can be preserved in order to as a
42:24
condition for for this discernment um or
42:27
or conciliation or whatever it is which
42:30
is uh which is why i think it's so
42:31
important to talk about the a minimal
42:33
constraint of attention to those most
42:36
vulnerable that's exactly right that's
42:38
the barometer
42:39
for
42:40
not this is not a kind of
42:42
washed out libertarian i mean jesus is
42:45
not a moderate the sermon on the mount
42:47
is not moderate so you you know
42:50
the idea of bringing together
42:52
conservatives and liberals in some
42:55
unified family together is not a kind of
42:58
live and let live compromise it's a it's
43:00
a mutual call to a deep repentance
43:04
that actually rejects much of their
43:06
shared project together in a vision as
43:09
catastrophically beautiful as the sermon
43:11
on the mount man yeah man you guys are
43:15
dropping gold right here i mean this
43:17
idea of that work that hard work of
43:19
unity in the church not being some
43:22
pollyanna bs but it's actually like fear
43:24
and trembling and shaking hands and it's
43:27
almost like it's not even just any bomb
43:28
it's a time bomb it feels like it's
43:30
about to explode right so you got to do
43:32
it quick and you got to do it really
43:34
carefully and then this this idea of
43:37
jesus isn't just asking us to all be
43:38
moderates politically jesus is asking us
43:40
to put all that bs to the wayside and
43:43
unite under the mission in the way of
43:45
christ i mean yeah yeah we just we just
43:47
solved all the churches problems right
43:48
there
43:51
and then the trick is you know doing it
43:53
and that's what you know like i love
43:55
that uh it's funny i i i was just
43:57
scrolling through the show notes on it
43:59
so i saw that you had that quote from a
44:00
facebook post and i actually didn't know
44:02
i said any of that
44:04
because i i didn't really i was skimming
44:06
and then i saw that coat and i was like
44:07
man that is that's [ __ ] that guy yeah
44:11
that is dead on and then i saw that i
44:14
said it and i was like oh
44:16
so
44:17
yeah i but but it's
44:19
i think the the call to come and die and
44:22
the call to sort of take our own
44:25
the words that we we say on a sunday
44:28
morning even when we do our routine
44:30
confession of sin together for what
44:32
we've done and what we've left undone
44:34
all of the kind of routine stuff that
44:37
has such vapid content in our minds you
44:40
know
44:40
like what you just said it's harrowing
44:43
work it's like it's a lot less like a
44:47
group therapy session and a lot more
44:49
like south africa circa 96 you know
44:52
truth and reconciliation and that that
44:55
work is it's just
44:57
it's you've got to be willing to have a
44:59
lot of your life upset by it
45:02
you know
45:03
so and that's why i think the
45:04
kierkegaard connection with you guys
45:07
that that's why i vibe with him so much
45:09
because his way of talking about
45:11
christianity will not let us off the
45:13
hook for that stuff you know right and
45:16
it's probably i mean one of the things
45:17
that i was going to say actually it's a
45:19
very nice connection to that which is
45:20
like the kicker guardian kind of
45:22
anti-hegelianism yeah and and one one
45:25
dimension of that is this kind of idea
45:27
that uh you can go with the grain of the
45:30
social and
45:31
moral and cultural context
45:33
in order to in order to enact this that
45:36
and so
45:37
the profound ways in which very
45:39
determinative features of our lives that
45:42
are not that you know have whether it's
45:44
neoliberal economic policies or whatever
45:47
it is
45:48
might have to be really basically and
45:50
fundamentally challenged just by a
45:52
certain kind of form of life which means
45:53
it it can't be sentimental because it's
45:56
kind of damned yeah i mean like there's
45:59
no way to enact something like this
46:00
without expecting failure failure in any
46:04
sense of
46:05
uh sort of the ability to go on the kind
46:08
of ability to sort of make your way and
46:10
to kind of make peace with the ordinary
46:13
course of life as it is handed to you
46:16
and that's what's so challenging to me
46:17
is that one of the distinctions between
46:19
a kind of protestant way of embodying
46:22
some recognition of this and a the roman
46:24
catholic way of western tradition is is
46:26
to think about and at least in the in
46:28
the roman catholic context there's
46:30
always been an acknowledgement of of
46:31
what charles taylor would call different
46:33
speeds you know like that is to say the
46:35
monastic community bears the work of uh
46:38
monastic communities compare the work of
46:39
doing this in a certain way in a sense
46:41
on behalf of a wider community and as a
46:44
part of a project that is a realized
46:46
eschatology that's doing battle for the
46:48
sake of the kingdom with powers and
46:49
principalities and so on that simply
46:51
cannot be realized by everyone because
46:54
it's not and
46:58
but the priest of all believers in a
46:59
protestant kind of vision attempts to
47:01
radicalize and democratize a certain
47:04
kind of vision then the question becomes
47:05
whether that also requires a weakening
47:08
of the picture and a kind of collapsing
47:10
back into something that can actually be
47:11
enacted because it can go more easily
47:13
with the way of things you know and and
47:15
so um and so that kind of tension of how
47:18
do you enact something radical in the
47:20
life of a christian community that
47:22
actually lifts up the life death and
47:23
resurrection of jesus and re-performs it
47:25
in the world faithfully is is just if
47:28
it's if it's a question that's not just
47:30
a conceptual question or one that you're
47:32
working out because you want to write a
47:33
beautiful book that sells eight copies
47:35
to other people who work on those
47:37
theological questions
47:38
and then you can put it on your cv and
47:40
then you know like live a normal middle
47:42
class or upper middle class life of the
47:44
professoriate if you want if that's if
47:46
that's not what you want but you want to
47:48
actually figure out how to do it and see
47:50
if it's doable and then if it's not then
47:51
give up on christianity and if it is
47:53
then have hope that god is in christ is
47:56
reconciling the world to himself then
47:58
you have to figure out how how that
48:00
performance is supposed and that's
48:01
that's the kind of thing that keeps me
48:02
up at night that's why you go to church
48:04
sameer that's why you go to church i mean
48:06
i know that's like like there's a lot
48:09
you have to swallow to do that but the
48:11
church lumbers towards that vision in a
48:16
sort of drunken wayward lumbering
48:18
towards but and i think the role of a
48:21
minister is you know kind of like eugene
48:23
peterson in the apocalyptic pastor says
48:25
that the job of a pastor is to ruin
48:28
people's lives and so
48:30
you stand on the back of the room amen
48:32
and people leave and say oh that was a
48:34
nice sermon and you're shaking hands and
48:35
you're like i'm trying to ruin your life
48:37
i'm trying to ruin your life i'm trying
48:38
to ruin your life and that i think what
48:40
that means is that pastors have
48:43
they have to have the vision
48:45
from
48:46
the eyes to see god enacting those
48:49
realities inside the lives of their
48:51
people and then call attention to when
48:54
they see it happening they say look at
48:56
this brother who just gave his car away
49:00
to this other brother who needed one or
49:02
look at this brother
49:04
or sister who whose family their house
49:08
just burned down they need a place to
49:09
live like all these different all these
49:11
different ways you see in not in macro
49:14
scale
49:15
socioeconomic upheaval but inside the
49:17
life of our community disruptions of the
49:20
normal course
49:22
of of this neoliberal picture of
49:24
happiness there are disruptions that
49:26
actually show
49:28
that tear little windows into the world
49:30
that you can look through those and say
49:33
this actually i'm seeing something
49:35
you know
49:36
the kingdom of god is near and and
49:38
pastors draw attention to that stuff so
49:41
that
49:42
because we're not going to see these
49:43
things enacted in wholesale
49:45
revolution although i do have i'm having
49:47
whiskey with a guy in a couple weeks who
49:49
all of his facebook posts are like uh
49:51
like so when are we gonna burn these
49:53
buildings down i mean he's like
49:55
he's
49:56
like because he we connected over the
49:58
fact that we're both christian
50:00
anarchists we both say that we're
50:01
anarchists but he's like he's like ready
50:04
to to you know he's ready to do it sure
50:07
do not go burn these buildings down with
50:09
this guy do not know
50:17
uh but but uh but you know he i think
50:20
you can get impatient with small-scale
50:23
change my friend pastor john lemon says
50:26
most of the time you want to experience
50:28
the magnificence and majesty of god it's
50:30
going to be on such a minuscule scale
50:33
that if you don't have eyes to see it
50:35
you because you're always looking for
50:37
some
50:38
sort of major eruption you know it's
50:40
kind of like elijah in the cave you know
50:41
what i mean yeah yeah yeah it's like the
50:44
god of the mundane there are whispers of
50:45
that stuff
50:47
happening
50:48
and that's that'll you know that should
50:49
keep us from killing ourselves
50:52
so before we continue we want to thank
50:55
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50:58
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51:00
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51:01
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51:10
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51:12
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51:16
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51:17
storyhillbkc.com for menu and more info
51:19
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51:21
yourself for visiting story hill bkc and
51:23
if you're not remember to support local
51:26
one more time that's storyhillbkc.com
51:28
[Music]
51:30
one thing that you've written about
51:31
sameer is
51:33
apophatic theology and the ineffability
51:36
of god and i'm curious to get your
51:37
thoughts on this as well sharad
51:38
how does how does that fact if we can
51:41
call that a fact that that god is in a
51:43
deep sense unknowable
51:45
how does that
51:47
challenge or contextualize the stuff
51:50
we've been talking about about living
51:52
this thing out we're living it out for a
51:54
thing that fundamentally is beyond our
51:55
kin so and before you do that sameer just
51:59
contextualize for listeners what
52:00
apophatic theology means yeah yeah okay
52:03
well i mean i think we could we don't
52:05
have to get super high falutin here i
52:07
mean the fact is that um
52:09
apophaticism at the at the end of the
52:12
day is a way of recognizing
52:14
that the object of our worship if you
52:17
are worshiping god then the object of of
52:19
worship is beyond all creatures and
52:23
beyond all finite capacity for
52:26
comprehension and guess what we are a
52:28
creature with finite capacities for
52:29
comprehension and therefore god must be
52:32
beyond us
52:33
right and so it's the the augustinian
52:35
line he says in a sermon he says it
52:37
really clearly it's a c comprehendus not
52:39
as deus right if you can understand it
52:41
it ain't god oh that's right
52:44
um
52:45
that's something i think that is so
52:47
intuitively plausible you know it also
52:49
reminds me the groucho marx kind of line
52:51
about about not wanting to be a member
52:52
of any club that would admit him
52:55
right yeah humans should not want to be
52:57
a member of any club about god in which
53:00
god remains comprehensible can fit
53:02
inside the club right i mean like
53:04
that's that's apophaticism apophatic
53:06
just means to speak away from and the
53:08
idea of speaking away from is the idea
53:09
of being able to speak in negative terms
53:12
about god that is to say to mark
53:15
one's relationship to god by distance
53:18
by by the way in which god is at a
53:20
remove from us and then so now this
53:22
leads to puzzles like different kind of
53:23
puzzles about language and stuff like
53:25
that how can we talk about something we
53:26
can't talk about because look i just
53:27
talked about it right so uh when i say
53:30
uh you can't talk about god then you
53:32
should ask the question you can't talk
53:33
about who who did you just say right
53:35
like what are we talking about right now
53:37
yeah yeah yeah and there's always some
53:38
smarmy analytic philosophers who's gonna
53:40
be saying that and then you're going to
53:42
want to slap them but then you can't
53:44
because you're a pacifist
53:46
oh wait oh sorry and that's why you walk
53:48
into a bar with your passenger correct
53:51
so
53:52
instead i mean peter van illsby is a
53:54
philosopher of language who's done some
53:55
really great work interesting work i
53:57
think he's got an article that's going
53:58
to be coming out on meta-linguistic
54:00
negation what he means is to say look
54:02
what we're trying to say when we talk in
54:03
apophatic terms is we're not trying to
54:05
say that our language doesn't doesn't do
54:07
anything with respect to god or that it
54:09
doesn't can't express truths or stuff
54:11
like that it's that
54:12
we're when we
54:14
to be an abathist is to express a
54:16
certain kind of reluctance towards your
54:18
own speech so it's meta-linguistic it's
54:20
a way stepping back towards your own and
54:22
looking at you your own speech and going
54:25
i guess
54:26
i don't know i guess kind of right um
54:29
and
54:30
because it's a form of recognition a
54:32
form of reluctance about the capacity of
54:34
your language to accommodate what it's
54:36
about right yeah and that's i think
54:39
that's like that's a
54:42
wildly relevant
54:44
approach
54:46
to
54:46
the
54:47
overconfident technocratic uh american
54:51
religious ways of talking about god i
54:53
mean uh you know kierkegaard is
54:54
obviously all over this and so is pascal
54:56
and and the this sort of different
54:59
existential strains within the christian
55:01
faith but of course maybe most famously
55:04
augustine is this has this attitude that
55:06
says
55:07
that god should not be instrumentalized
55:09
you know he makes the uti fruity
55:11
distinction and he's like there are
55:13
things to be enjoyed and then there are
55:14
things to be used and our way of talking
55:17
about god
55:18
if we don't want to instrumentalize him
55:21
and turn him into a a weapon or a tool
55:24
in our own hands we have to constantly
55:26
recognize that we do not grasp we are
55:29
grasped by god you know and so in my
55:33
mind the apophatic attitude to use
55:35
sameer's phrase and the wonder requisite
55:39
to
55:39
christian epistemology
55:41
that all of that is a way of affirming
55:45
the most fundamental aspect of christian
55:47
conversion which is that it's god that
55:49
grasps us
55:51
you know um not we that that grasp him
55:54
and language is a huge part of the way
55:57
we we exercise categorical control over
56:00
the world you know so when when i think
56:04
you know ministers particularly have to
56:06
be very very careful to consistently
56:09
remind people through our liturgies the
56:11
shape of them the way we do them and
56:14
through the kinds of words we speak that
56:16
we are
56:17
lunging desperately at realities way
56:21
bigger than we can comprehend yeah and
56:23
what we're not doing is cataloging a
56:27
creature in a jar you know when we talk
56:30
about god so i think yeah you know what
56:32
will he what willie jennings calls like
56:33
speaking from the commanding heights yes
56:35
the command oh what a cool phrase where
56:37
eagles dare how the misfits would put it
56:39
um but um um yeah which of the choruses
56:43
i ain't no goddamn son of a [ __ ] and i
56:45
uh
56:46
i think that's a great way
56:48
yeah it's a great way of avoiding the
56:50
commanding heights is to recognize i i
56:53
have no conceptual
56:56
spiritual
56:57
emotional capacity to bear
57:01
something as
57:02
fundamental as god in my language that's
57:05
right and that and you know of course
57:07
that's what the experience of worship is
57:09
that's what wordless wonder is you know
57:11
wonder is at its at its
57:13
apogee when we have nothing left to say
57:17
you know so so yeah it's got
57:19
physiological sort of manifestation
57:21
right the slack jaw the wide eyes right
57:24
exactly yeah
57:26
on your face
57:28
we're really going back to that sort of
57:30
hick southern thing a lot here
57:32
sorry like uh
57:33
hanging fruit but some of my best
57:35
friends are from the south
57:37
yeah
57:37
[Laughter]
57:39
um so
57:41
the other thing i want to say is like
57:42
the inevitable thing about this right is
57:44
what about revelation what about like
57:45
aren't there truths that we know about
57:47
god and what about jesus i think is the
57:48
biggest what about jesus right oh man
57:51
but so here's the beautiful thing about
57:52
calcidonian formulations of jesus and
57:54
about trinitarian theology in general
57:57
region that the more you understand
57:59
about these realities the deeper your
58:02
incomprehension goes so mysteries are
58:05
not placeholders for knowledge we don't
58:08
have yeah that's not what a mystery is a
58:10
mystery is something that as you
58:12
approach it and you grow in the
58:15
understanding of a thing it opens even
58:17
wider fields of absolute
58:21
yeah so gregory incomprehension nissa
58:22
calls a peck to see right there they're
58:23
screening and stretching in which yeah
58:25
so what i was going to say though is
58:27
that like um so what about truth values
58:28
of the of the claims we make about
58:30
trinity and you know all this kind of
58:31
stuff about about the incarnation and
58:33
whatever no and how does no ability and
58:36
unknowability kind of connect to one
58:37
another and
58:38
i like this little paper of bill
58:40
alston's called two cheers for mystery i
58:43
don't know if you ever read that one
58:45
i like the title it's a good title and
58:47
i think he says he just gives an analogy
58:49
that i think is really apt and uh he
58:52
says look you know i explained to my
58:55
i don't remember how old he said his
58:56
granddaughter like three five four five
58:58
year old granddaughter what i'm doing
59:00
when i go to work i might do that in a
59:02
way that i have to accommodate my
59:05
explanation to the limits of her
59:07
comprehension and so i have to be able
59:09
to say something within terms that are
59:12
graspable for her because i'm trying to
59:15
express something
59:16
that i know can only be expressed
59:20
and received if it's accommodated right
59:22
right
59:23
and so the accommodation is like okay so
59:25
hey you know how you color with crayons
59:27
on your
59:28
on your i mean and i extend the analogy
59:30
in a little way but he's like you know
59:31
you know how you call her on crayons and
59:33
on your paper and then when we really
59:34
like it you know if it doesn't suck we
59:36
put it on the refrigerator like this is
59:37
like a really meritocracy kind of a
59:41
little cry while you're explaining yeah
59:42
yeah right this one that's what i do you
59:44
know i go to work and i and i write i i
59:47
think of uh i think of arguments and
59:48
whatever and i write them down and i and
59:50
then peer review and publication really
59:52
is just they get put on the refrigerator
59:53
or whatever right
59:55
so the the basic idea is he says well
59:57
look
59:58
it's it's not the case that um
60:00
that she doesn't know anything i that
60:02
she hasn't been sufficiently informed it
60:04
has truth values and you know and and
60:07
whatever
60:08
but she can't stand back and see how the
60:10
analogy works
60:12
in order to see what the correlations
60:14
are right because she only has one half
60:16
of it she only has her standpoint right
60:19
and if that's what we're saying about
60:22
whatever about you know and calvin says
60:24
this this is what this is very
60:26
traditional it's standard to said to say
60:28
god stoops you know to reveal
60:31
and even even god's self-revelation in
60:35
christ in the incarnation is a veiling
60:38
of god
60:39
through
60:39
the manifestation of
60:41
of the humanity of jesus
60:43
god comes through the humanity of jesus
60:44
and so
60:45
that's a kind of veiling of god and
60:47
through manifestation right and um and a
60:50
kind of ultimate accommodation to us and
60:54
foreign is also the revealing right it's
60:57
like the veiling is the revealing and
60:59
the stymieing wonder
61:02
of that indescribable union of god and
61:05
man in jesus is the most profound and
61:09
direct knowledge we can have of god
61:12
this incomprehension
61:14
is actually what is the only pathway to
61:16
any comprehension you know what i mean
61:18
so that's kind of the i think the the
61:20
relationship between mystery and
61:23
knowledge yeah the other thing i'll say
61:25
about this is that oftentimes in these
61:28
contexts the talk about the the relevant
61:31
kind of ignorance involved the relevant
61:33
kind of mystery involved because in in
61:36
philosophy religion context this this
61:38
talk often happens around the
61:41
metaphysics and epistemology questions
61:43
and the questions about the semantic
61:45
content of propositions and stuff like
61:47
that it it often gets separated from the
61:50
question of appreciation
61:52
so there's a certain way in which
61:54
mystery is a normative concept it's
61:56
something that is to be appreciated as a
61:58
mystery so it's not just a a knowledge
62:00
gap or an information gap or something
62:02
like that that's what that's the kind of
62:03
the the way in which like which i was
62:04
talking about earlier and so
62:06
that's the sense in which mystery the
62:08
kind of mystery involved is what leads
62:11
people who think and reflect on it
62:12
theologians who have reflected on it to
62:14
to want to put the modifier in to call
62:16
it like a holy mystery you know
62:18
because it's a kind of something that's
62:19
supposed to generate
62:21
its own sense of sacredness or
62:23
separateness you can't just be like oh
62:25
that's interesting i mean it's arrest
62:27
it's a resting yeah it's interesting
62:30
it's actually it's not curiosity it
62:31
grabs your face and pulls it in in fact
62:34
i think one of the most animating
62:36
convictions in my own vocation is the
62:38
deep belief
62:40
that human beings are inexhaustible
62:44
wells of mysterious glory and goodness i
62:48
mean
62:49
if you are that's why you know in
62:51
characterizing what a pastor does saying
62:53
that it's about paying attention
62:55
means
62:56
that you if you are not arrested
62:59
by
63:00
the glory resident in other human beings
63:04
however you find them you can't do this
63:07
work
63:08
you know yeah
63:10
no matter who they are you know and you
63:12
can name test cases of people who are
63:14
particularly difficult to do that with
63:16
but it's not sanctimonious or saccharine
63:20
to say
63:21
that in that person is
63:23
depths of profound wonder that if only
63:25
they knew you know they probably
63:26
wouldn't be such an
63:29
yeah that's [ __ ]
63:29
howard thurman calls the uh altar in
63:32
every human in every heart
63:33
the way of the heart that's in the way
63:34
of the heart yeah yeah
63:36
yeah yeah and i think if there is any
63:39
uniqueness or expertise to pastoral work
63:42
and if that does have something to do
63:44
with drawing attention to the presence
63:46
of god and drawing people into union
63:49
with god that means
63:51
not creating spaces
63:53
and experiences and language that's all
63:57
separate from the daily course of a
63:59
person's life
64:01
it means recognizing
64:03
all the stuff of being alive
64:05
is an encounter with god
64:08
and that's what i that's what i like
64:10
about the democratizing aspect of
64:12
protestant thinking is that it says that
64:15
is everybody's
64:17
spiritual vitality it's in their ability
64:20
to
64:21
perceive the presence activity
64:25
beauty
64:26
power
64:27
sustenance nourishment of god
64:31
in the basic features of the life you
64:33
already live you know
64:35
and to me that's that's why mysticism
64:38
is really also just another way of
64:40
talking about christian experience
64:43
yep it's not a special form or a
64:46
heightened plane
64:47
it's just
64:49
being a christian yeah i think yep yep
64:52
so maybe in the church we need a little
64:53
a few less bible studies and a little
64:56
bit more contemplative prayer
64:58
in silent retreats perhaps
65:00
yeah
65:01
and don't get me wrong bible studies are
65:02
important don't don't you know email
65:04
that i hate bible studies
65:07
why do you hate the bible i don't
65:09
understand why these guys hate the bible
65:10
so much
65:11
but yeah but i think maybe
65:14
you know generally speaking it's it's
65:15
probably accurate to say
65:17
uh anything augustine and gregory both
65:19
said gregory said it better but um but
65:23
the but i do like
65:25
sometimes especially in the confessions
65:28
the way that augustine talks about
65:30
the world almost as a kind of portal to
65:33
god i mean it's like the sacramentality
65:36
of the world is
65:38
i think the beating heart of christian
65:40
experience it's like you have to have
65:43
the imagination to be able to sit on the
65:46
max train
65:47
next to
65:48
you know some dude tweaking out on
65:50
mushrooms and
65:52
hear the the running of the rail under
65:55
the car of the train and smell the musty
65:58
odor of human beings packed like
66:00
sardines and look at this person sitting
66:02
next to you out of his mind because he's
66:05
running from who knows what and you have
66:07
to be able to look around and with your
66:10
senses apprehend
66:12
something more than what you're seeing
66:14
you know and that
66:16
that ability to do that is the ability
66:19
to experience god which is why
66:21
most of my atheist friends that we when
66:24
we have conversations and we do i you
66:26
know sit sit smoke cigarettes on his on
66:29
my friend's porch talking about his this
66:32
the stuff he's going through
66:33
what i'm hearing is this dude experience
66:35
god all day long you know
66:38
and and he and
66:40
what's what's interesting are ways in
66:42
which
66:43
he does and doesn't see that you know so
66:46
mysticism also blurs the line between
66:49
the believers and the unbelievers
66:51
it's like
66:52
everything and everyone participates in
66:55
the goodness of god and there's sliding
66:58
scale of apprehension of that but it
67:00
blurs those lines in uh exciting ways
67:03
yeah yeah that's really good
67:06
really good sharad should we be done or
67:07
do you want to talk about racism
67:12
that's actually a great uh motto for the
67:14
united states
67:18
do you want to talk about race
67:22
but it's a rhetorical question right
67:23
it's a rhetorical question
67:26
yeah
67:29
yeah let's be done but i think we need
67:31
to like whether it's in a year from now
67:32
or whatever it'd be fun if you guys are
67:34
willing to sit with uh another pastor
67:36
and another philosopher um and that's us
67:39
by the way uh to do it again do do this
67:42
again this is fun oh so great man thank
67:44
you guys so much for for giving us the
67:46
chance to do it yeah a lot of fun we
67:48
always enjoy the chance to be able to
67:50
sort of you know hang out and talk with
67:52
each other so this is nice anywhere
67:54
anywhere our listeners can find
67:56
your whether it's your papers your
67:58
sermons i don't know if you have any any
67:59
books or anything between the two yeah
68:01
you don't need to listen to my sermons
68:02
uh um really they're really no you
68:05
should you should they're not that great
68:07
but um if you ever want to come visit me
68:10
in person i'd love to chill and drink
68:12
coffee or beer or whiskey and just shoot
68:14
the breeze and our church is in uh
68:17
portland oregon it's called bread and
68:18
wine and you can find us at
68:20
breadandwine.org and we're on facebook
68:23
uh we have a bread and wine page on on
68:24
facebook as well or you could just
68:26
friend friend me on facebook i'm a um
68:28
i'm profligate on there i'm a real [ __ ]
68:31
anyone who's like uh it shows moderate
68:33
interest to me i'm like
68:35
yeah i'm your friend i'm your friend i'm
68:37
your friend so uh so i would you know
68:39
message me uh but yeah that's how you
68:41
can reach me there's the website and the
68:42
facebook page so sameer i i've got uh a
68:46
book with fortress press 2015 it's
68:48
called uh the problem of perception and
68:50
the experience of god amazing um
68:54
it's really it's really not but it's
68:56
it's a uh so it's about religious
68:57
experience about you know i the last few
68:59
chapters are about gregor of nissa and
69:01
it's about the structure of religious
69:03
experience and then i um also have
69:05
various papers and
69:07
articles and stuff on various topics
69:09
about religious experience and about
69:10
race i'm very interested in something we
69:12
haven't talked about the connection
69:14
between the stuff we were talking about
69:16
with respect to mysticism and um with
69:18
respect to the sort of vocation of
69:20
theology and also thinking about race
69:22
and racial formation and how how we
69:25
should think about the intersection
69:27
between race and religion so i have
69:29
written on some of that stuff in the
69:31
philosophy of religion as well as in
69:33
theology and i those are projects that
69:35
i'm still working on
69:36
so i you know i suppose somebody can
69:38
just i have a research gate and an
69:40
academia page and people could just
69:42
awesome yeah we'll put we'll put some of
69:43
that stuff in the show notes if anybody
69:45
wants to go deeper yeah having read some
69:47
of that i'd recommend it
69:48
yeah sameer also has some stuff on the
69:51
conversation i think right online don't
69:54
you um i have just like an article i
69:56
co-wrote with um helena cruz and
69:58
whatever but i you know yeah you can
70:00
just sort of google me if you're
70:01
interested or you know shoot me a note
70:03
i'm at westmont uh it's seota
70:05
westmont.edu and you can
70:07
send me send me any
70:09
questions
70:10
if you want to show up at his house this
70:12
the following is
70:26
[Applause]
70:28
well
70:29
thanks so much for being on the show
70:31
yeah thank you guys it's so fun awesome
70:42
thanks for listening to a pastor and a
70:44
philosopher walk into a bar we hope you
70:46
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70:48
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70:49
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70:51
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70:53
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70:54
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70:56
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70:59
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71:01
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71:03
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71:05
until next time this has been a pastor
71:06
and a philosopher walk into a bar
71:12
[Music]