CONTENT NOTE: This episode contains discussion of sexual harassment and abuse.
We interview author and podcaster Tiffany Bluhm about the depressing trend in the American church and the broader culture of ignoring, disbelieving, and actively silencing women who are sexually harassed or abused, often by church leaders themselves and often to protect institutions with oppressive cultures. Her book Prey Tell is a timely and important analysis of the sinister ways this trend is caused and perpetuated within the church and what we can do about it. If you've read and enjoyed the other recent books in the "Christian Thanos Gauntlet," you won't want to miss this one.
The beer featured in the episode is 2020 Black Gold from Central Waters Brewery. The whiskey we were drinking during the interview (not featured) is Evan Williams Kentucky Straight Bourbon. The Milwaukee sushi restaurant Tiffany mentions is (probably) Spicy Tuna. Special thanks to Story Hill BKC for their support.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
CONTENT NOTE: This episode contains discussion of sexual harassment and abuse.
We interview author and podcaster Tiffany Bluhm about the depressing trend in the American church and the broader culture of ignoring, disbelieving, and actively silencing women who are sexually harassed or abused, often by church leaders themselves and often to protect institutions with oppressive cultures. Her book Prey Tell is a timely and important analysis of the sinister ways this trend is caused and perpetuated within the church and what we can do about it. If you've read and enjoyed the other recent books in the "Christian Thanos Gauntlet," you won't want to miss this one.
The beer featured in the episode is 2020 Black Gold from Central Waters Brewery. The whiskey we were drinking during the interview (not featured) is Evan Williams Kentucky Straight Bourbon. The Milwaukee sushi restaurant Tiffany mentions is (probably) Spicy Tuna. Special thanks to Story Hill BKC for their support.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
NOTE: This transcript is for the unedited video version of this conversation, so what you see here will not match the audio-only podcast version exactly. For the video version, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMCWvdD3agg&t=1s&ab_channel=APastorandaPhilosopherWalkintoaBar
[Music]
00:05
so tiffany bluhm thanks so much for
00:07
joining us
00:09
it is such a pleasure to be here thanks
00:11
for having me
00:12
so part of our podcast theme is that
00:14
we're a pastor and a floss for walking
00:16
into a bar so we always have something
00:17
to drink
00:19
so if you guys aren't messing around you
00:21
happen to be drinking that you want to
00:22
tell us about
00:23
feeling there is you know what i feel
00:25
like a lightweight to the party so
00:26
forgive me for not coming with a fancier
00:28
drink but i have a
00:31
decaf fair trade
00:34
french press with some caramel nut pods
00:37
because you know got to hit up that nut
00:39
pod life and you what are you drinking
00:42
oh this is evan williams and he's
00:44
straight bourbon
00:46
where he's drinking bourbon yeah sorry
00:47
we're degenerates
00:49
i'm sorry where do you live is this
00:50
appropriate at whatever time of day it
00:52
is where you're at yeah we're in
00:54
milwaukee it is appropriate at every
00:55
time of day
00:57
okay
00:58
true story some of the best sushi i've
01:00
had was in milwaukee right right by the
01:02
stadium
01:03
you're from post and you're saying some
01:04
of the best sushi you've ever had is in
01:06
milwaukee the company was delightful so
01:08
let me just say that i and i was very
01:10
hungry and we have very good sushi here
01:12
and the place we went they fly in their
01:14
sushi every morning to this little place
01:16
in milwaukee you remember the name of it
01:19
i don't know but it's right across from
01:21
the stadium oh okay yeah and we can
01:24
process of elimination find that yeah
01:27
uh tiffany could you just tell us in our
01:28
listeners a little bit about yourself
01:30
and why you wrote this book
01:32
absolutely again my name is tiffany
01:34
bluhm i'm an author a speaker and a
01:36
podcaster i have a podcast called why
01:38
though with fellow author ashley
01:40
abercrombie and we answer the
01:42
existential questions we all ask
01:44
ourselves about systemic injustice and
01:46
our favorite frozen pizza and everything
01:48
in between i am a mama i've got two
01:50
little boys i live here in the pacific
01:52
northwest
01:53
and my
01:55
work is at the intersection of justice
01:56
women and faith and i wrote pray tell
02:00
after my own experience of speaking
02:02
truth to power and losing everything i
02:04
held dear in the process i was left to
02:06
grapple with the societal financial and
02:09
professional ramifications of speaking
02:12
up even when i wasn't the person who had
02:15
been victimized and i think for so many
02:17
of us we
02:19
see on cnn or christianity today of
02:21
these egregious acts and i would say
02:23
about every quarter a good man or quote
02:25
unquote good men falls um and abuses his
02:27
power at a woman's expense and we wonder
02:30
why
02:30
why did he get away with it for so long
02:32
why didn't anybody speak up why didn't
02:34
she say anything so my hope is to really
02:37
answer how these things happen why they
02:40
happen why they continue to happen and
02:42
how we can prevent them from happening
02:43
in the future yeah i um again the book
02:46
is pray tell
02:48
it's really good for those of you
02:49
watching on video
02:50
there it is
02:52
um
02:53
this we've interviewed a number of i
02:55
would say really important books in this
02:57
last probably six months or so um
02:59
kristen ko ko best du mei's oh
03:02
yeah i love him and uh
03:04
beth allison barr in the making of
03:06
biblical womanhood and a church called
03:09
tove from the scott mcknight and lauren
03:11
barringer really i mean if
03:13
what i've said a couple of times is that
03:15
it feels like we're at a moment of
03:16
reckoning particularly in the church
03:18
that right now there is this ground
03:20
swell that's saying we're not going to
03:22
pretend anymore we're not going to um
03:25
shove this under the rug even though
03:26
everyone's trying
03:28
we need to confront this and we need to
03:29
exercise this demon and there's a number
03:32
of
03:32
ways in which that's happening but i
03:34
would i would put your book in that camp
03:37
of it feels like there's this a bit of a
03:39
reckoning and your book is a little
03:42
different but i would like to hear what
03:43
do you think about this idea that maybe
03:45
the church is in a rec time of reckoning
03:47
right now time of even dare i say
03:49
reformation
03:50
for a lot of sins that we've just kind
03:53
of
03:53
winked and nodded at
03:55
yeah
03:57
in the past there's been this belief
03:59
that to speak up against
04:02
any infractions that have happened
04:03
within the church walls would be to hurt
04:05
the witness of the church
04:07
and we are finding that that's not the
04:09
case and that our god will not be shaken
04:11
we we're part of this unshakeable
04:13
kingdom and when we refuse to call out
04:16
the sin within the camp if you will we
04:18
are doing more harm than good and we are
04:20
protecting no good name or good gospel
04:24
when we are willing to sacrifice those
04:26
who call upon the lord those who are
04:28
faithful when we're willing to sacrifice
04:30
them to keep a reputation to keep a name
04:33
of a church we're really we're really
04:35
wading into some some dirty water and
04:37
more than that we are willing to protect
04:40
men who have
04:42
no
04:44
need for protection we're willing to
04:46
defend men
04:47
with some really faulty theology which
04:49
we can get into
04:51
and
04:52
it's dangerous it's harmful and in fact
04:54
it's one of the leading reasons that
04:56
women are leaving the church and beyond
04:58
that you know it's not a woman's
05:00
education resources
05:02
uh religious beliefs that will determine
05:04
her trajectory in life it is if a man
05:07
will abuse his power at her expense that
05:09
is the leading factor in how her life
05:12
will play out so with that knowledge we
05:15
have a role as bystanders as followers
05:17
of jesus we have a moral ethical and
05:20
christian obligation to stand up speak
05:22
up and address these issues that we have
05:24
decided are
05:26
completely acceptable to treat women
05:28
this way
05:31
well first of all i think tiffany you
05:32
need to put an extra
05:35
descriptor of what you do behind your
05:37
name author podcaster preacher because
05:41
that's good stuff um
05:43
this book i mentioned those other books
05:45
this book felt different for me right
05:46
from the jump and particularly because
05:49
you're not
05:50
coming at it from a historical
05:51
perspective
05:52
like do may you're not or in bar you're
05:54
not coming at it from a data statistical
05:57
perspective you're coming at it from
05:59
more even though there is data in
06:01
statistics and history in the book
06:03
it felt more like a your lived
06:04
experience as a woman
06:07
in the church and in this world that we
06:08
live in um that was what what you wrote
06:11
about and it was visceral and it did
06:13
something different to me as i read
06:15
through this book it it it made me
06:17
reflect on meetings that on staff
06:19
meetings that i have with an all-female
06:21
staff which i'm the only male on our
06:23
church staff
06:25
it made me reflect on things that i say
06:26
things that i just flippantly do and it
06:29
really kind of moved me a little bit and
06:31
disturbed me into thinking i'm guilty of
06:35
a lot of things in this book even though
06:37
i'd like to champion myself as an
06:38
egalitarian and feminist and the whole
06:40
deal um
06:42
was that your intent from the beginning
06:44
that experience lived experienced on
06:46
display of women today
06:49
yeah my lived experience but all through
06:51
modern stories that we all know of
06:53
everybody from monica lewinsky to anita
06:56
hill
06:56
to
06:58
you know victims of church abuse that we
07:00
know in the last couple of years i
07:02
wanted to illuminate it through these
07:03
common stories that we are familiar with
07:06
but we might not understand the nuanced
07:08
backstory and more than that i
07:10
specifically wanted to address and you
07:11
hit the nail on the head is how even
07:14
egalitarian spaces are guilty of this in
07:17
the context i was in it was egalitarian
07:20
through and through um
07:22
being uh choosing to work in faith
07:24
spaces for the majority of my career i
07:27
heard that women are equal to men that
07:29
was out the gate in high school women
07:31
were preaching and teaching and so i had
07:33
this model to me that you can do what
07:35
men do you are just as valuable
07:38
inherently worthy your word matters and
07:41
then when the girl who plays by all the
07:43
rules finds herself between a rock and a
07:45
hard place and realizes the people who
07:47
set the rules weren't there for her
07:48
benefit then what are we left with
07:51
it's really so uh disconcerting and and
07:54
disjointed and how we're treating women
07:57
when we can champion just as you said
07:59
egalitarian practices but if we aren't
08:01
examining how those play out in the
08:03
everyday lived experience we might hurt
08:07
and harm in ways we never intended to
08:11
yep and i want to say
08:13
this book is should be read by everyone
08:15
really important book particularly for
08:17
men and pre like if you if you feel like
08:20
oh i'm i'm really progressive and i
08:22
treat women great
08:24
read it because it's going to make you
08:26
reflect it's going to make you it's
08:27
going to just make you a better human
08:28
being
08:30
in the book
08:32
tiffany you bring us into a woman's life
08:33
perspective navigating a world that's
08:35
been designed to repress and corral
08:36
women but you articulate also how much
08:39
more pronounced that oppression and
08:41
abuse is for women of color
08:42
you as a woman of color as well can you
08:45
that was i liked that i liked reading
08:47
that again this is not my lived
08:48
experience but
08:50
um
08:51
differentiating white women and women of
08:54
color that that's a two different
08:55
experiences can you bring us into that
08:56
world a little bit yeah absolutely in
08:59
the last i would say 250 years we have
09:02
seen
09:04
varied responses when women come forward
09:06
with an inconvenient truth and you look
09:09
back at just as slavery ended there was
09:12
women who wanted to press charges
09:13
against former slave owners and they
09:16
were told by magistrates unless you can
09:18
prove that you didn't enjoy it you have
09:20
no case here and then you would see
09:22
white women come forward against black
09:25
men who they claimed had taken advantage
09:28
of their body or their reputation or
09:29
their time
09:31
and
09:32
those men were given severe consequences
09:34
and even as white men who harmed these
09:37
white women their
09:39
testimonies were heard consequences were
09:41
given out appropriately and so over the
09:44
years abuse of power against women is
09:46
happening equally to women of color to
09:49
white women but the response to it is
09:51
again so varied so now you look in our
09:53
modern day black women are two to three
09:55
times more likely in the workplace to be
09:57
harassed indigenous women are 2.5 times
10:00
more likely than any other people group
10:02
to be taken advantage of um harassed
10:05
manipulated abused
10:07
assaulted and you have latin women who
10:10
are the least likely to be believed
10:12
especially based on their immigration
10:14
status and and then of course you bring
10:16
in asian women like myself i'm south
10:18
asian we are seen to be meek or cold or
10:22
quiet or hypersexual black women also
10:24
have that
10:25
stereotype placed upon them and what
10:27
happens is these stereotypes by
10:29
themselves you think oh it's just a
10:30
stereotype but when both ministers and
10:33
magistrates get on board to believe that
10:35
these stereotypes are true about them
10:37
and then consequences are in line with
10:39
those stereotypes not only are those
10:41
women not heard the perpetrators of
10:43
power are not held responsible they're
10:46
able to use those stereotypes as excuses
10:49
and hold up their accolades over a
10:52
woman's accusations
10:56
yeah yep i mean i got nothing to say to
10:58
that but
11:00
yep it's depressing
11:01
yeah
11:02
so you write i think this is chapter two
11:04
about narcissism in the church and uh
11:08
not just in the church but i'm
11:10
interested specifically on your take on
11:12
why narcissists seem to thrive so well
11:14
in the church specifically and how many
11:17
of them end up at the top i remember
11:19
seeing a canadian study a few years ago
11:21
as like a shocking
11:22
percentage of
11:24
church leaders that they surveyed
11:26
ranked pretty high on a narcissistic
11:27
personality disorder scale you know why
11:29
is everyone staring at me
11:30
[Laughter]
11:32
um so say a bit about how the church
11:34
context might actually encourage
11:36
narcissistic
11:38
behavior and how
11:39
that can actually shield the abuser from
11:42
consequences
11:43
yeah so first let's give a baseline
11:45
definition of narcissism for those who
11:47
might be
11:48
wondering exactly quite exactly what
11:50
that means and when we're talking about
11:51
narcissism for this conversation we are
11:53
talking about a distorted view of
11:55
reality
11:57
where
11:58
the narcissist only exists to have their
12:01
agenda met and everyone around them
12:04
serves as supply they are
12:06
there to supply the demand of what that
12:08
narcissist wants to see it's their way
12:10
or the highway
12:12
unless you are willing to bend their way
12:14
on every issue on everything you're no
12:17
longer
12:17
needed necessary or you are an enemy so
12:21
that's just our baseline there of
12:22
narcissism now interestingly
12:25
those who
12:27
gain power in faith spaces it is because
12:30
of the fruit of the spirit in their life
12:31
it is because of the virtues that they
12:34
espouse and they it's been seen it's
12:36
been noticed it's been elevated and then
12:38
on their ascent to power they seem to
12:40
lose those virtues and replace them with
12:43
quote-unquote leadership qualities that
12:45
very much mere narcissistic tendencies
12:48
but we mask them in the language of the
12:50
scriptures will say you know
12:53
i'm the one god anointed and i'm the one
12:55
with the vision from god and if you're
12:57
not on board then get off the bus or
13:00
we will continue to say you know come
13:02
under my sector of
13:04
responsibility and come under my scepter
13:06
of power and and i'm going to take care
13:08
of you and
13:09
i i vividly remember somebody saying to
13:11
me i'm the daddy of this house i'm the
13:13
one who calls the shots and it's this
13:15
idea that it's their way or the highway
13:19
and without a healthy board and a
13:22
healthy staff
13:23
to keep someone like that in check it
13:25
can be easy to see that power continue
13:28
to grow
13:30
without any restraint and research shows
13:32
that men who continue to ascend to power
13:35
without healthy accountability see
13:38
themselves as more desirable sexually
13:41
relationally
13:42
that they are deserving of anything they
13:44
want and they will seek it out
13:46
regardless if it's consensual now i'm
13:48
just not talking about sexual hair i'm
13:50
talking about
13:51
you walk into somebody's office and say
13:52
you need to do this why because i'm in
13:53
charge knowing that there's such little
13:56
ramifications for themselves but that
13:57
middle management or lower management
13:59
person whether you're in a faith space
14:00
corporate america wherever
14:02
they're that person doesn't feel they
14:04
have the liberty resources or agency to
14:07
speak up because there will be
14:09
consequences for them so
14:10
when there is a lack of accountability
14:12
you see those narcissistic tendencies
14:15
really start to swell where perhaps they
14:18
weren't so prevalent in the beginning
14:19
and again it's without accountability
14:22
that it can really really go wrong now
14:24
do we think every leader is a narcissist
14:26
absolutely not
14:28
but the fact is narcissism is
14:30
comfortable
14:32
it is it feels good
14:35
and it gets the job done from that
14:37
person's point of view so they're
14:38
thinking well what's wrong with that
14:40
what's wrong with that they can see it
14:42
as this isn't me trying to control
14:45
everyone or everybody this is me
14:47
honoring the vision that god's given me
14:49
so being able to step back and and
14:52
really have a posture of humility is
14:54
required to hold that tension of
14:57
leadership
14:59
and servanthood
15:01
i mean we could do a whole episode on
15:04
what pastor means it's the shepherd of a
15:07
flock and
15:08
jesus call to serve in the last shall be
15:11
first and the first shall be less we
15:13
could do a whole thing we'll just we'll
15:14
just remind you listeners of that's what
15:16
a that's what a pastor that's what a
15:18
leader in the church is supposed to be
15:20
that's what the call from the apostle
15:22
paul
15:23
and man has it gone sideways um
15:26
and i do want to say this i want to give
15:27
this little mid episode disclaimer there
15:30
might be some men who are listening if
15:32
you're still listening and you're a
15:33
little turned off you've got this little
15:36
um i don't want to say little because i
15:37
don't want to belittle
15:38
us men but we've got this little fragile
15:42
ego where we're we're starting to say
15:44
maybe even
15:45
white men in particular were saying man
15:47
it's hard to be a white man today in
15:48
this world
15:49
you know like we're taking shots from
15:51
every which way
15:52
nang
15:54
nope you don't get to say that
15:57
yeah but yeah i mean have you heard in
15:59
the news how they're just killing us
16:00
nope
16:02
just
16:03
buy it here's our job here's your job
16:05
here's my job as a white man
16:07
listen
16:09
yeah that's the whole job that's it
16:11
that's the whole job listen and be an
16:13
ally and i think what a privilege to be
16:15
a white man in ministry in corporate
16:17
america in education and politics and
16:19
entertainment you have such an
16:21
opportunity
16:22
to leverage your platform and your power
16:24
and your resources to uplift so many and
16:27
i hope you do that i am the product of
16:30
good white male mentors who saw goodness
16:33
and capability and skill in me and
16:35
leverage not only
16:37
their
16:38
resources but their connections to
16:40
advance my space so i am just i think
16:43
honestly can i shout out to a good white
16:45
man is that okay absolutely in my
16:47
situation when i spoke truth to power
16:49
the first person i called was a mentor
16:51
of mine who i had had since i was 18
16:55
and i said this is the situation this is
16:57
what i know and i am terrified i know i
16:59
have everything to lose if i speak up
17:02
and he said to me you don't have to do
17:04
something about this we will do
17:06
something about this he included himself
17:08
in the solution and it's something i'm
17:10
so grateful for because i think for so
17:11
many of us abusive power can feel like
17:13
it's happening in a vacuum and it's very
17:15
much not others are likely affected by
17:17
that abusive power but when another
17:19
chooses to lend their strength when
17:21
another chooses to share that burden who
17:23
might not have the emotional emotional
17:25
load that you might be carrying
17:27
there's something really beautiful to
17:28
that to be able to walk that out in
17:30
wholeness and healing and justice and
17:32
resurrection
17:33
yep and second disclaimer just in case
17:36
you're like uh we've been talking about
17:38
women and feminism and oppression a lot
17:40
on this podcast can we be done or the
17:42
world's been talking about feminism for
17:44
a long time can we just we've we've
17:46
changed some laws we've done the things
17:48
let's let's move on sorry that's not the
17:50
way it works something that is millennia
17:53
in in taking
17:54
roots for millennia means that we're
17:56
going to have to spend a long time
17:58
disassembling it and burning it and
18:00
sweeping the ashes aside so just get
18:02
used to it it's okay so tiffany um
18:05
in the in chapter three you talk a lot
18:07
about the silencing of woman
18:09
and
18:10
i had one of those out of body
18:12
experiences when you were talking about
18:13
the clarence thomas and anita hill
18:15
hearing and then the brett kavanaugh and
18:17
what's what's the woman's name dr
18:19
kristen blasey ford doctor dr kristen
18:21
blasey ford and i felt i had this
18:24
realization that we've grown up and i th
18:26
we all look like about the same age
18:28
you're younger than us for sure um
18:30
good skin care guys
18:34
but i'll speak for myself i feel like
18:36
i've grown up in a generation that's
18:37
watched um
18:39
trial after trial for sexual harassment
18:41
whether it be for supreme court justices
18:43
or um other politicians where a woman
18:46
says he did this to me and
18:49
she's brought brought front and center
18:51
asked all these questions grilled and
18:53
then every time i mean pretty much every
18:56
time
18:57
we believe the man
18:59
thanks give ourselves a pat on the back
19:01
that we did our due diligence and then
19:02
we walk away
19:04
now
19:05
i'm just realizing as you wrote that
19:07
tiffany that i've been conditioned
19:10
culturally to just
19:12
that's the process that we do and then
19:14
we walk away and it's no big deal right
19:16
like there's no consequences at all we
19:17
just went through an election with a
19:18
famous
19:20
abuser and then the other candidate that
19:22
we thought was a good grandpa who had
19:25
had accusations thrown at him as well
19:27
and we heard about it for about two
19:28
weeks and then it just went away don't
19:30
care anymore
19:31
this is the world we live in
19:34
can you speak to what this does what
19:36
this cycle of silencing tells other
19:39
victims the multitudes of victims that
19:42
are out there wondering if they can
19:43
raise their voice and tell their story
19:44
and have somebody held accountable
19:47
yeah i think specifically when i think
19:48
of dr kristen blasey ford for
19:51
many of me and my friends it was
19:53
watching are we safe is it safe to come
19:55
out and be honest and the answer is no
19:58
uh tina chen the ceo of the time's up
20:01
legal defense fund she said women
20:07
come forward and speak truth to power
20:08
and men are forgiven
20:11
and that's what we've seen and what you
20:12
just perfectly described is
20:14
women feel so unsafe because we still
20:17
will hold up a good man and his
20:20
character or perceived character and how
20:21
he makes us feel
20:23
over a woman's honest experience she is
20:26
disposable and you've had incredible
20:28
people on that you can tell you why
20:31
historically we believe that women are
20:32
disposable and from the first century to
20:35
our modern day this belief that women
20:36
are inherently evil and they're
20:39
tertilian my favorite of the early
20:41
church father they're the gateway the
20:43
gateway to the enemy
20:44
you know there's this belief that women
20:47
aren't capable of telling the truth and
20:49
you know in the first century
20:51
one historian says that women could not
20:54
hold testimony in a court of law
20:57
because it was either for personal gain
21:00
or
21:01
for fear of punishment they were quite
21:03
literally incapable of telling the truth
21:05
so that's permeated our culture today in
21:07
this course in the last 20 years of the
21:09
cases you just mentioned this idea that
21:11
women aren't trustworthy and women are
21:14
incapable of telling the truth therefore
21:17
we can interview them we can ask those
21:19
questions but we will continue to employ
21:21
confirmation bias of what we believe
21:23
about these quote unquote good men and
21:26
continually affirm who we believe they
21:29
are even if there's clear evidence
21:31
otherwise because if we don't
21:33
we have to address our own bias of how
21:36
we treat women and we have to realize
21:38
that we've given allegiance and trust to
21:40
a man who doesn't deserve it and we
21:42
would rather dispose of a woman in her
21:44
testimony her honest testimony
21:46
than believe that the whole structure
21:48
needs examination and restructuring yeah
21:51
and that's not to even to think about
21:54
the trauma that she went through even
21:56
thinking about coming forward and
21:58
testifying before the whole world about
22:00
this trauma that happened to her i can't
22:02
imagine and then to be discarded like
22:05
you're disposable and your story isn't
22:06
real
22:08
it makes me like viscerally angry yeah
22:11
let's poke into that for a second
22:13
because one of the reasons they decided
22:15
to dismiss her case and i say this
22:17
because it's a perfect example for so
22:18
many cases is that she couldn't recall
22:20
accurately the events in chronological
22:23
order which in fact research shows is
22:26
evidence of trauma where the brain
22:28
almost like a scrambled egg will
22:30
scramble those events because it is so
22:32
traumatic to even think of them and the
22:33
body will react in such a way in such an
22:36
inflammatory response that to protect
22:38
the body it will scramble it because
22:39
it's so painful to relive yet we put a
22:42
woman on the stand or we put a woman
22:44
before a church board or we put a woman
22:47
on blast because she can't accurately
22:50
string those events together and in
22:52
reality that is actually proof of her
22:54
harm
22:56
yeah
22:58
and i'm not even convinced honestly that
23:01
a lot of the people that voted to
23:02
confirm didn't believe her
23:05
plenty that did
23:06
but couldn't
23:09
couldn't make themselves
23:11
see it as evidence that counted towards
23:13
something they were obligated to do yep
23:16
yeah
23:16
just it didn't fall into that category i
23:18
remember seeing
23:20
while the trial was ongoing they stopped
23:22
oren hatch in the hallway and asked him
23:24
what his thoughts were
23:26
and he said literally
23:28
i think she's an attractive nice woman
23:32
like you could see you almost see the
23:34
wheels like trying to process what was
23:35
happening
23:36
in a way that he just didn't have the
23:38
the tools for and so it just
23:40
bald sexism yeah yeah 100
23:44
worry of relevant to my decision making
23:46
and that
23:48
i was i'm going to tiffany oh no take it
23:51
away i was just i was just gonna say
23:52
let's let's not you know
23:55
try to vilify
23:57
politicians who are scumbags and don't
23:59
care i mean
24:00
we had a 2016 election where the the
24:04
republican candidate talked about and we
24:06
had every single person heard this
24:09
coverage of him talking about grabbing
24:10
women by the genitals and bragging about
24:12
it
24:13
and we had about a half a day like a
24:16
12-hour moment where everyone's like
24:17
maybe i can't vote for him anymore and
24:19
then turns out 82 percent of
24:20
evangelicals voted for him and probably
24:22
what upper 60 of catholics voted for him
24:25
i mean let's let's just be real honest
24:27
it seems like none of us really care
24:30
about women's stories it seems like
24:33
very few of us care about taking abuse
24:36
harassment assault rape all of this
24:39
seriously one bit because
24:42
82 percent and 60 i mean that's just the
24:45
numbers
24:47
and that's where
24:48
you get into this understanding that
24:50
it's all about proximity to power why
24:52
will we exchange
24:55
first-hand knowledge between billy bush
24:58
and 45 knowing what happened on that
25:01
access hollywood bus why would we
25:02
exchange that for why because we want
25:04
power and if this person will advance
25:07
our place in the system then we'll take
25:09
it we will always care about number one
25:11
which is so anti-gospel as we know but
25:14
this idea that we will stay silent we
25:16
will continue to let abuse of power at a
25:18
woman's expense continue if
25:21
we can have our proximity to power this
25:23
was a phenomena that really was on
25:24
display at fox news with roger ailes
25:27
when gretchen carlson had audio
25:29
tape of
25:31
roger ailes abusing his power and
25:32
speaking poorly about her and her body
25:34
and her reputation and her ability and
25:36
her skills just so so degrading
25:39
and even with that audio women came out
25:42
of the woodworks to support roger
25:45
and i've seen it again and time and time
25:47
again in research for pray tell women
25:49
are the first line of defense why
25:51
because they have internalized their
25:53
proximity to that power and if they want
25:56
to stay in any sort of inner circle then
25:59
they are going to protect the number one
26:01
at all costs because they don't want to
26:02
lose their place in the hierarchy and
26:06
it really is a is a dark day when women
26:10
turn on other women to protect men to
26:12
protect men who don't deserve to be
26:14
protected and to protect men who abuse
26:16
their power and so you see how not only
26:18
abusive power women's expense harms the
26:20
women
26:21
you are quite literally dividing people
26:23
and i'm specifically talking of women
26:25
here but all of us like you said over 80
26:27
percent of americans who follow jesus
26:31
decided that this was still the man for
26:33
the job and so just this idea that we're
26:35
willing to exchange
26:37
power willing to exchange well this
26:39
person's disposable if you can advance
26:41
what i believe should happen or what i
26:43
want or where i want to be and so pray
26:46
patel is really it's not about the 10
26:49
who are absolute monsters it's about the
26:50
90 of us who we all are watching these
26:54
things play out in our churches in our
26:56
workplaces every place we work and
26:58
worship the gym the play group i don't
27:00
care where you at we witness this abuse
27:02
of power and we think not my circus not
27:04
my monkeys i don't need to handle this
27:06
and in reality
27:08
we it is your job it is not
27:12
the the onus is not on a woman to escape
27:14
abusive power it is on all of us to
27:17
stand up for her and it's on men to
27:18
behave justly
27:20
yep and let me just say i'm just gonna
27:23
pause for a second
27:24
try to pastor the moment again like
27:25
listeners i'm sure you're listening
27:27
right now and you're like this is heavy
27:29
because i'm feeling it like i don't
27:31
think i've ever felt this kind of
27:33
physical heaviness and weight to into an
27:35
interview um
27:37
i would call that maybe
27:39
as a good charismatic like the the
27:40
grieving of the holy spirit perhaps
27:42
um but i'm encouraging you don't give up
27:44
on this uh if you got to put push pause
27:46
to take a time out because it's
27:48
heaviness do it but then come back
27:50
because we need to talk about these
27:52
things yeah yeah so let's talk about
27:55
some some more specific ways that women
27:58
are silenced in the church
28:00
uh talk a little bit about ndas and how
28:02
those get used and your feelings about
28:04
those because i know you have some
28:07
in other ways i suppose that uh the
28:09
church leaders and boards
28:11
find very creative ways to keep these
28:13
stories from coming out yeah
28:15
interestingly ndas have been
28:17
one of the only saving graces for many
28:20
women when they've been harmed and feel
28:22
any sort of redress or restitution for
28:24
their harm but in reality what we're
28:26
doing with non-disclosure agreements
28:28
secret settlements whatever you want to
28:29
call them is we're saying that
28:31
especially within
28:32
church settings we're saying that this
28:34
harm happened but you can't tell anybody
28:37
because we don't want to hurt the
28:38
reputation of this church because that's
28:41
more important than what's happened to
28:42
you and your restoration process and
28:45
it's in our church and the name of our
28:47
church and the reputation of our church
28:49
and the reputation of our leaders and
28:51
the reputation of those who might have
28:52
committed that harm is more important
28:54
than seeing you walk out that
28:56
restoration now do we need to protect
28:58
women who've been harmed does their name
29:00
need to be released absolutely not but
29:02
do we need to still be honest about what
29:04
has happened because if we don't if we
29:07
don't two things number one
29:08
when you aren't completely honest about
29:10
any sort of abusive power that's
29:12
happened especially in faith settings
29:13
you are leaving it up to the abuser of
29:16
power to determine the narrative and i
29:18
will guarantee you
29:19
he will and i say he because 80 of these
29:22
issues are unfortunately um lead
29:26
secondly with ndas you can come into a
29:29
work environment or a church environment
29:32
and think this is the
29:33
they have the ethos i've been waiting
29:35
for this is the kind of place i've
29:36
always wanted to work and worship the
29:37
lord in and help build the kingdom and
29:40
in reality you are dropped into a fish
29:43
tank of piranhas and you have no idea
29:45
because every woman who's been eaten
29:47
alive before you hasn't had permission
29:49
to tell hasn't had permission to tell
29:51
her story and again it negates any
29:54
further examination of the system and
29:56
how it might be enabling and protecting
29:59
an abuser of power because it's that
30:01
ring of enablers who do all that dirty
30:03
work they're the ones writing payoff
30:05
checks they're the ones you know erasing
30:08
calendar events that when an
30:10
investigation comes oh well i didn't
30:11
happen i didn't have that meeting there
30:13
they're the ones doing the digging and
30:14
erasing emails and clearing servers
30:16
they're the ones doing all those things
30:17
more than likely so it's that second
30:19
ring who are
30:20
really really really need some
30:23
examination to see
30:26
what is harming those who are here what
30:29
is helping those and what does justice
30:31
actually look like because justice
30:33
doesn't look like an nda
30:35
um i can think of so many women
30:37
who've signed ndas
30:39
ones that i've researched for pray tell
30:41
ones that i know personally who
30:43
legitimately thought this is my only way
30:45
to have any sort of closure and in
30:47
reality ndas they're so
30:50
so
30:51
tightly
30:53
written in like fort knox that you
30:55
likely can't talk to a therapist a
30:57
mentor your spouse any future pastor
31:01
about what you have encountered now when
31:03
we look at scripture
31:05
scripture invites us to bear our burdens
31:07
with one another scripture invites us to
31:09
walk out our restoration in community
31:11
and we are saying in a very house of
31:13
faith you'll do no such thing
31:15
yep i just want to say if you're looking
31:17
if you're listening and you're looking
31:18
for a job at a church and you
31:20
come across an nda a non-disclosure
31:22
agreement go find a job at another
31:24
church and if you're leading a church
31:26
you're listening and you have ndas
31:28
that's your that's a common practice
31:29
that you do at your church
31:31
man submit that before the lord and uh
31:34
burn those up because that is not the
31:36
gospel
31:37
isn't it yeah a verse about nothing
31:39
hidden that shall not be revealed or
31:41
maybe maybe
31:44
even more on that just one last thing
31:47
eve the ndas
31:50
are even scarier that if you don't sign
31:53
this nda we will sue you we will sue you
31:56
for character defamation
31:58
i can't tell you how many pastors have
32:00
whispered that across the boardroom
32:04
in their congregation sign this or will
32:06
sue you for coming after us how talk
32:09
about a rock and a hard place and that's
32:12
why these ndas again i know i've tried
32:14
to give as much context as possible but
32:16
at the end of it
32:18
you will struggle in silence or will
32:21
destroy you yep yeah yep
32:26
so
32:27
what do you say too because i know there
32:28
are probably listeners out there
32:30
thinking this what what do you say to
32:32
people probably men probably white men
32:35
who are concerned about false reporting
32:37
and they might say something along the
32:39
lines of look i agree abuse is bad it's
32:41
awful women shouldn't be treated that
32:43
way we shouldn't sweep it under the rug
32:44
but character assassination is bad too
32:46
false reporting is bad too
32:48
that's something you're not going to get
32:49
off your you know that's going to be
32:51
with you for the rest of your life
32:53
and now we have this movement after me
32:55
too of this you know believe women
32:57
slogan something you talk about
32:59
in the book um and and some men will
33:01
want to say well sure we should believe
33:03
the honest women
33:05
right we should or we should uh you know
33:07
believe the ones that are telling the
33:08
truth but
33:09
maybe not take it so far as like a
33:11
blanket this is our disposition to
33:13
believe all women
33:15
what is your response to that that kind
33:17
of concern why do you think
33:18
legitimate concern
33:20
you know it's interesting this is one of
33:21
the most common questions of the 80 plus
33:23
interviews i've done around pray tell
33:25
and it's been mostly from white men
33:26
asking so i'm glad you're staying on
33:28
that streak and
33:29
my answer is i hope one of encouragement
33:31
and it's this first it's around one
33:34
percent of any sort of case that goes to
33:37
trial or or is reported with local
33:40
police that turns out to be false one
33:42
percent that is very low so the
33:44
likelihood that a woman would willingly
33:47
sacrifice herself on the altar to ruin a
33:49
man very unlikely because she's very
33:51
aware as we just talked about as we
33:53
talked about dr christian blasey ford
33:55
she's the one who will never be able to
33:57
get a job again she's the one who won't
33:59
be able to carry on she's the one who
34:00
will have the scarlet letter for the
34:01
rest of her life not the man
34:04
furthermore it is the role of a man in
34:06
those situations if you think man i
34:08
don't want to be accused of false
34:09
reporting i can help you prevent that
34:10
and it's just a few little ways first
34:12
consider the power dynamics race
34:15
obviously genders we're talking about
34:16
between men and women
34:18
physical size that's an often overlooked
34:20
power dynamic between men and women that
34:21
women very much are aware of when
34:23
they're having an exchange with a man
34:25
and then of course uh reputation do you
34:28
have a reputation as someone who's kind
34:30
benevolent generous and if something
34:31
were to happen people will you know
34:33
they're going to believe you over her or
34:35
is what's her reputation like so being
34:37
conscious of that in every situation you
34:39
know i remember i was speaking at a
34:42
church
34:43
um
34:44
and
34:45
the senior pastor followed me into the
34:47
green room and he shut the door behind
34:48
him and that man meant no harm i can
34:50
guarantee you he meant no harm but he
34:52
wanted to talk to me he was like oh tell
34:53
me more about this story or this point
34:55
that you shared but when he closed that
34:56
door behind him here i am
34:58
a 30-something brown woman a guest in a
35:01
city that i've never been to and then
35:03
i'm flying out that afternoon
35:06
and this man who is got a well-known
35:09
reputation and here we are and anything
35:12
could happen and he's taller than me
35:14
he's older than me
35:15
he's got a platform larger than mine and
35:17
i was so aware like
35:19
he could say anything or do anything and
35:21
i i i felt like the sitting duck and so
35:23
if we want to talk about we don't want
35:25
false accusations i would encourage you
35:27
to consider those dynamics in every
35:28
interaction that you have with women
35:30
again physical size reputation
35:33
obviously gender
35:35
and uh and class as well just knowing
35:38
that there's a difference there and
35:39
there's how women will be seen or how
35:41
they perceive you so if you don't want
35:43
to be accused of making a woman
35:44
uncomfortable well before we're to
35:46
harassment and assault if you don't want
35:47
to be accused of making a woman
35:48
uncomfortable consider those dynamics in
35:51
every exchange and think about man from
35:53
her point of view i wonder what this
35:55
feels like here i am a foot taller than
35:56
her i'm speaking
35:58
louder than her i have more power than
36:00
her maybe i'm telling her to do
36:02
something or go somewhere just to be
36:04
wary of those dynamics
36:06
that's good
36:08
tiffany we hit on this in the beginning
36:09
of the art the interview um this
36:13
the idea of male allyship and i want to
36:16
read an excerpt from your book because
36:18
it was just
36:19
like all over the place in your book so
36:21
startling and and clear you say
36:24
gendered oppression will continue so
36:26
long as women are the ones tasked with
36:28
solving the issue
36:30
when in reality this issue exists in
36:32
large part due to abusive power rooted
36:34
in toxic masculinity not weak feminine
36:37
femininity
36:38
this issue is a man's issue as much as
36:40
it is a woman's issue if not more so it
36:43
is decidedly not enough for men not to
36:45
harass assault silence slander and
36:48
destroy
36:49
woman you're calling me men
36:51
into allyship and can you describe
36:55
this reality that says well i don't i'm
36:57
not sexist i i don't assault woman you
37:00
know i i do good enough um
37:03
can you describe what is needed for men
37:06
our responsibility and what it what a
37:08
male ally looks like
37:10
sounds like acts like
37:12
yeah what a great question you really
37:15
illuminated this about about 20 minutes
37:17
ago and you said first we just must
37:18
listen
37:19
we must
37:20
listen because we'd like to assume we
37:23
know what other people are going through
37:25
but the reality is we filter everything
37:27
through our own family of origin lived
37:29
experience religious upbringing
37:31
so on and so forth all of our power
37:32
dynamics and different you know our
37:35
different identities that we hold
37:36
together intentions so being able to
37:38
simply listen to a woman's point of view
37:40
and being willing to hear what she has
37:42
to say
37:43
and doing so without judgment of
37:44
thinking that's not how it that's not
37:46
how it happens here i don't see it like
37:48
that withholding judgment is key
37:51
and we must consider our facial
37:52
expressions we must consider our body
37:54
language in that simply listen and then
37:56
secondly we have to be willing to not
37:59
only listen to a woman's account and
38:01
listen to what she thinks might be
38:02
necessary for change or for restoration
38:05
but then enact that and allow her to be
38:07
part of that process not think we know
38:09
what she needs but continually
38:11
have that dialogue with her what does
38:13
this look like now that can swing two
38:15
ways one we can either shut her down or
38:16
two
38:17
a man can be put on a pedestal because
38:19
he'll give women of even a shred of time
38:21
and that's not what we're going for
38:23
either this is not the idea of like look
38:25
at me i'm this awesome feminist man
38:27
who's out to help women it's like no i
38:30
am going to use my place whatever that
38:32
may be whatever semblance of power i
38:34
have to ensure that women are heard
38:38
women are valued women are believed and
38:41
women are uplifted and that's
38:42
outrageously practical and if you're at
38:45
work and you are getting opportunities
38:47
and promotions and maybe you haven't
38:49
even worked for them that hard who knows
38:51
maybe you have i believe your hard work
38:52
or whoever's listening but you can think
38:54
of jade in the next cubicle who's just
38:56
as capable being willing to sacrifice
38:59
yourself so jade can have advancement in
39:01
her career advancement in the workplace
39:03
or advancement
39:05
in church if there's women who are
39:07
clearly capable for leadership positions
39:09
within the church but they're
39:10
continually giving to
39:12
x number of men being like you know what
39:15
i do believe i'm qualified for that but
39:16
you know who's also qualified is so and
39:18
so if you want to talk about allyship
39:20
that's what it looks like and we have to
39:22
put our money where our mouth is because
39:25
this will not change unless men see
39:27
themselves as part of the answer in fact
39:29
they're half of the answer if not more
39:32
and
39:33
one other thing that i think
39:36
we sometimes
39:38
psychologically overlook is that men in
39:41
the workplace who are overtly
39:43
egalitarian
39:45
are on the whole seen as weak research
39:48
shows
39:48
they're seen as pandering to women by
39:52
men
39:53
in the workplace that they work with but
39:55
also other women
39:56
i want to illuminate that because it
39:58
points to the societal influence of how
40:01
we believe men who practice egalitarian
40:05
ways in the places that they work and
40:07
worship are being treated so you can see
40:08
how they might
40:10
continually step back from being an ally
40:12
or advocate in any manner because when
40:15
they do they've been treated as weak
40:18
so we have to step this back and think
40:21
it isn't enough to simply as i mentioned
40:25
you know refrain from harassment or a
40:28
soul or a cat calling or
40:30
you know locker room talk we have got to
40:33
be willing to be seen as weak as men
40:36
we've got to be willing to be seen as
40:38
maybe i am helping women but not at the
40:40
expense of men it's because we're in
40:41
partnership partnership is always the
40:43
goal this isn't some feminist manifesto
40:46
this is truly
40:48
let's all work together because this is
40:49
going to destroy us all yeah this is the
40:52
gospel
40:54
the other person viewed as weak jesus
40:56
yeah you you had to get all jesus z and
40:58
say like we have to be willing to be
41:00
seen as weak tiffany
41:01
you burst my bubble because right in
41:03
that moment i was thinking
41:04
oh egalitarian men are seen as weak come
41:06
at me bro like whatever but then you
41:09
brought jesus yeah the solution is not
41:10
to make yourself appear tough
41:14
allow yourself to be perceived that a
41:15
great example is uh my own personal
41:17
moral exemplar fred rogers who comes up
41:19
in your book uh somebody that yeah
41:22
everybody thought he was weak and
41:23
feminine
41:24
okay a little behind the scenes i legit
41:27
wanted to pitch to my publisher my next
41:28
book be about
41:30
what does masculinity look like in
41:31
french basically writing a biography on
41:34
fred rogers because feelings are
41:36
mentionable and manageable and
41:39
you know it's wild how from the age of
41:41
13 13 is when boys start to realize if i
41:45
want to be seen as a quote unquote man i
41:48
have to demean women it's hard to find a
41:50
middle school girl who hasn't been
41:51
harassed it's almost impossible
41:53
why because he wants to be seen as a man
41:56
to the boys in his class but also to the
41:58
girls
41:59
and so we start this culture and this
42:02
abuse of power so young and then we see
42:04
it in fraternity culture and then we
42:06
take that into adult life and we take
42:07
that into the places we worship and we
42:10
see how we've normalized a culture of
42:12
abuse and it's one that we can fix oh
42:16
man i mean tiffany you just right there
42:19
drop this bomb that's going to change
42:20
the way i parent i've got a 12 year old
42:22
son
42:23
who
42:23
[Music]
42:24
like is petrified of girls
42:26
but
42:27
i mean it's an innocent thing it seems
42:30
like but uh it quickly could go into
42:33
demeaning girl meaning girls woman and
42:36
like you just
42:38
changed a little bit of the way i'm
42:40
gonna parent my boys so thank you
42:42
like
42:43
parents listen up
42:44
13 year olds that's crazy
42:47
yeah
42:49
so coming to the end of our time here we
42:51
we talked to a lot of people about some
42:52
dark heavy stuff this is one of those
42:55
conversations we've had see why you
42:56
drink while you do this it makes more
42:58
sense now exactly it's not an accident
43:00
that we have alcohol next to us so we
43:02
decided that at the end of most of our
43:04
interviews we're going to ask a version
43:06
of the question what's a better way
43:09
to try to
43:10
end on a hopeful note if possible and
43:12
there is some hope in your book in the
43:13
midst of all of the
43:15
the uncomfortable facts and the darkness
43:17
i mean you talk about building a culture
43:18
in which women are believed and boys are
43:21
taught respect and kindness and
43:23
ownership of their own desires and
43:25
stewardship of their emotions
43:27
so
43:28
what's a better way yeah we first must
43:30
lament
43:31
we must lament that this is happening so
43:33
many of us are still in denial we don't
43:35
want to believe that good men are
43:36
capable of bad things but if we can
43:38
lament and consider our proximity to
43:40
power and how we have personally
43:42
benefited when women have been taken
43:44
advantage of whether it's in the
43:45
workplace whether it's at our church
43:46
whether it's in politics when we first
43:49
see how we've been part of the problem
43:50
then we can begin to be part of the
43:52
solution
43:53
and then we have to listen as we've
43:55
talked about and then we have to learn
43:56
how these things happen or they will
43:58
continue to go unchecked and finally
44:00
we've got to love and love is not
44:02
divorced from justice don't believe
44:04
anyone who tells you otherwise we often
44:06
are
44:07
forcing women into this quick
44:08
forgiveness of you know you're you're
44:10
not spiritually mature if you aren't
44:12
willing to forgive what's happened to
44:13
you and forgive this man without
44:15
repentance and the reality is that this
44:18
woman is entitled to justice why because
44:20
my bible tells me so
44:22
and it's our honor it's our honor to
44:25
walk out that justice with her just as
44:27
for not just the perpetrator but for
44:29
those who've been harmed
44:31
that's good tiffany as you talk i'm
44:33
inspired because
44:35
if anyone can do that the church the
44:37
people who follow jesus the people of
44:39
the gospel we've got to be able to do
44:40
that right that's what we do lead the
44:42
way that's restoration redemption let's
44:44
go yeah
44:46
tiffany where can people find you where
44:48
can they buy their your books i mean
44:50
everyone knows where to buy books so i
44:51
don't even know why i'm asking this
44:52
question but we just want people to go
44:54
after like purchase your book and listen
44:56
to your podcast so tell us yeah
44:58
everything at
44:59
tiffanybluhm.com you can read or listen
45:02
to all kinds of goodies and of course
45:03
links to your favorite indie and
45:05
mainstream retailers and for the
45:07
everyday i hang out mostly on instagram
45:09
@tiffanybluhm nice well again the book
45:12
is pray tell and uh i i would put it on
45:15
the must read list especially after this
45:17
interview good grief if you're a fan of
45:19
those other books randy mentioned this
45:20
is definitely in your wheelhouse i have
45:22
to tell you something quite funny that
45:23
was called the christian thanos all
45:24
those books that you mentioned uh pray
45:26
tell and jesus and john wayne making the
45:29
womanhood
45:30
church called
45:31
i don't know if you saw that going
45:32
around on twitter but it said oh
45:34
christian thanos i've got all the books
45:38
that's awesome that's amazing you made
45:39
it you made thanos
45:41
you know what
45:42
someone's got to do it
45:44
like when you collect them all you can
45:46
equalize the universe come on
45:49
you just broke
45:50
with that
45:52
but yeah i'm going to be thinking about
45:53
that for a while
45:55
well tiffany bluhm thank you so much
45:56
for joining us it's been powerful and
45:58
it's been just a pleasure
46:00
oh the honor's all mine thanks for
46:02
having me
46:06
[Music]