We got to talk about the Bible with Pete Enns. This podcast thing can be a pretty good gig.
Pete is a biblical scholar, Old Testament teacher and expert, a host of The Bible for Normal People podcast, and (unfortunately) a Yankees fan.
We talk about what it means that the Bible is inspired, what it means that the Scriptures are authoritative, contradictions within the Bible, the universal work of the Spirit, and other light and easy topics.
The whiskey we tasted is Woodford Reserve's Wheat Whiskey. Get it in liquor stores everywhere.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
We got to talk about the Bible with Pete Enns. This podcast thing can be a pretty good gig.
Pete is a biblical scholar, Old Testament teacher and expert, a host of The Bible for Normal People podcast, and (unfortunately) a Yankees fan.
We talk about what it means that the Bible is inspired, what it means that the Scriptures are authoritative, contradictions within the Bible, the universal work of the Spirit, and other light and easy topics.
The whiskey we tasted is Woodford Reserve's Wheat Whiskey. Get it in liquor stores everywhere.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
NOTE: This transcript is for the unedited video version of this conversation, so what you see here will not match the audio-only podcast version. For the video version, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAb9Ro8iL0s
00:02
[Music]
00:05
well hello friends and welcome to
00:06
another
00:06
installment of a pastor and a
00:08
philosopher walking to a bar
00:10
we're happy to have you here excited to
00:11
share this time with you and
00:13
really really excited about our guest
00:14
today we get the treat of hearing from
00:17
uh pete ends who is an old testament
00:20
scholar
00:20
he teaches at eastern university he's
00:23
written numerous books
00:24
if you've listened to a pastor in
00:26
philosopher walk into a bar you've heard
00:28
his name particularly
00:29
in the bible uh bible episodes i
00:32
recommend
00:32
pretty much all his books and he is the
00:35
co-host of a
00:36
huge podcast that we love called the
00:38
bible for normal people so exciting
00:40
times
00:41
yeah in some ways they might have been
00:43
the inspiration for us to even start a
00:44
podcast jared was one of the first
00:46
people we talked to when we were
00:47
thinking of maybe doing this so
00:49
it's really exciting to have pete on
00:50
yeah super fun
00:52
and we have a fun we're kind of going
00:55
old school here with our tasting we did
00:56
woodford reserve i think for our first
00:58
tasting right
00:59
it was one of the early ones for sure
01:02
yeah and we are coming back around for
01:03
one of the variations so tell us about
01:05
it kyle
01:06
yeah so this is a wheat whiskey i've not
01:08
had this in fact i just saw it on the
01:10
shelf for the first time a little while
01:11
ago and decided to grab it just for the
01:13
podcast
01:14
so i don't know what to expect this is
01:16
not a bourbon it's not like anything
01:18
else we've had
01:20
according to the woodford website it's
01:22
52 wheat
01:24
followed by uh 20 barley 20
01:27
corn and eight percent rice so yeah we
01:30
tend to be sweeter i love weeded
01:32
bourbons
01:32
i've never had a wheat whiskey
01:38
smells mellow smells a little bit less
01:40
hot than their
01:41
bourbon i might say darker color than i
01:44
would expect for
01:45
i guess wheat i would just associate
01:46
with a light color because of wheat beer
01:48
but um
01:54
toasty sweet
01:59
mm-hmm yeah it tastes good
02:02
oak but it doesn't have as much
02:06
complexity as their bourbon i don't
02:07
think
02:07
no it's it tastes like a sweet cereal to
02:09
me with
02:10
a little bit of a barrel presence but
02:12
not as much as the bourbon
02:14
is it a low abv uh not as low as
02:18
i would have thought so this comes in at
02:20
45.2
02:22
okay i've had this before and this was
02:24
the same experience i had i had it
02:26
recently
02:27
and i was trying to come in as a blank
02:29
slate but um
02:30
i said i would say this is like a a
02:33
lesser
02:34
you know sibling of the actual woodford
02:36
bourbon personally
02:37
yeah it's a very different drink though
02:39
i don't know if it
02:40
you can hear that i'm gonna wear it to
02:42
bourbon
02:44
it's light and nutty and almost uh
02:48
nutty sure i get a little bit of banana
02:52
on the end i know i
02:53
find banana and everything but
02:56
more like banana peel this time it feels
02:59
almost sparkling
03:00
look at it it's effervescent sure yeah
03:02
there's a flavored
03:03
profile in there that i can't put a word
03:05
on i can't find it but um
03:06
it's it's in between like barn uh
03:09
library those are
03:10
go-to's for me but it's kind of flat on
03:12
my tongue do you know what i mean
03:14
it's not it's just not very complex
03:17
yeah flat is a fine word yeah i guess i
03:20
think i have to agree with you i'm a
03:21
little disappointed woodford
03:23
i mean i would still drink this happily
03:26
this is a good
03:27
burp or whiskey to have around a fire
03:29
with a cigar that you don't have to
03:30
worry about working
03:32
and not tasting everything you know but
03:34
not for
03:35
i want to show off a little bit yeah it
03:37
has almost no finish just kind of
03:39
falls off absolutely yep it's easy
03:41
drinking i would if you're going to try
03:42
this
03:43
friends try it neat and start there and
03:45
go
03:46
go from there probably when you say that
03:48
i'm probably going to mix the rest of
03:49
this bottle
03:50
i think it may be a great one and had an
03:52
old fashioned that kind of feel yeah
03:54
sure yeah i think i actually like it
03:55
more than you guys do it's it's a
03:57
different enough flavor
03:58
it would be one of those i'd grab for a
03:59
bit of variety if i was just sick of my
04:01
go-to's
04:02
all right one more time kyle what is it
04:04
this is the woodford reserve wheat
04:06
whiskey
04:06
and elliot you can have the rest of it
04:12
so over at our patreon page one of the
04:14
perks of being a top shelf
04:16
supporter is that you get name dropped
04:18
on the podcast occasionally
04:19
so we're going to start that with this
04:21
episode and we're going to name drop one
04:23
of our
04:23
top shelf supporters if you want to know
04:25
more about what that means head over to
04:27
our patreon page
04:28
and look at all the awesome perks that
04:30
you can get from that
04:31
but right now we want to thank
04:32
personally jake decitels for being
04:35
a dedicated top shelf supporter we
04:37
couldn't do this without you
04:39
thanks so much
04:43
so pete the the podcast is a pastor and
04:46
a philosopher walk into a bar
04:48
i'm the pastor i'm randy kyle
04:51
the hairy guy the g that's the
04:53
philosopher
04:54
okay and that's putin
04:56
[Laughter]
04:59
producer okay great yeah wonderful nice
05:02
to meet you guys
05:03
yeah you as well yeah absolutely just
05:06
say that
05:07
your podcast was probably the main
05:08
inspiration for us wanting to start a
05:10
podcast so we owe a lot of it to you
05:13
so competition huh i think i think
05:16
you're okay
05:18
there's not room enough on the internet
05:19
for both of us
05:21
are you guys you claiming to be god
05:23
ordained too like we are or uh
05:24
no there is only one god ordained
05:27
podcast it's the only one it says it
05:28
right there
05:30
yeah um you know how many people have
05:34
come to us and said
05:37
i mean you know what percentage of our
05:38
listeners i don't know but like
05:40
well i really like your podcast do you
05:42
really think you're the only
05:43
doctor so i just know how to answer that
05:48
because tell him yes
05:49
tell him yes you have to just lean into
05:51
it at that point
05:52
yes just have fun with that right yeah
05:54
didn't you read that in in uh
05:56
jonah 3 16.
05:59
yeah well we are so excited to welcome
06:02
you pete ends to the
06:03
podcast to a pastor and philosopher walk
06:05
into a bar thank you so much for joining
06:06
us pete
06:08
thanks so much i appreciate it good to
06:09
be here so pete for the 14 listeners
06:12
of ours who don't know who you are just
06:14
give a little bit of background as to
06:16
who you are um and here's here's one
06:19
little detail i'd love to know i haven't
06:20
heard i've listened to
06:21
you a lot i've read a number of your
06:23
books really enjoy a lot of stuff
06:25
and haven't heard anything blasphemous
06:27
so far but i'm looking on your shirt and
06:29
i see something blasphemous on your
06:30
shirt so also tell us why you
06:32
love the evil empire of the new york
06:34
movie
06:35
well he can't help what tribe you're
06:37
born into you know that's just it and i
06:40
grew up in new jersey
06:41
and um i when i was my parents were
06:45
immigrants when i was a kid
06:46
i was flipping channels i became a
06:49
baseball fan all my home and i was like
06:51
eight years old and i was flipping
06:52
channels
06:53
and i flipped onto channel 11 wpix and i
06:56
was watching a yankee game and i became
06:58
a yankee fan and i
06:59
always shudder to think what had
07:00
happened if i had stopped the channel
07:02
nine i would have become a mets fan that
07:04
would have been horrible
07:04
so um another moment of grace in my life
07:08
but yeah so that's well
07:10
all right you're freaking out and you
07:10
grew up in it okay yeah i can't help it
07:13
you know it's like you know when i lived
07:15
in boston for five years
07:17
i had sympathy for red sox fans i didn't
07:19
hate them i just felt so
07:21
bad for them you know and just they got
07:24
back with me anyway that's a long story
07:26
but um
07:26
so yeah i teach at eastern university
07:28
which is a christian
07:30
college outside of philadelphia and i i
07:33
also taught in a seminary for about 14
07:35
years
07:36
and um yeah i just got into this whole
07:39
field just because i'm very curious
07:40
and i wanted to know
07:44
more about what i said i believed in so
07:47
uh that got me into seminary and then
07:49
graduate school
07:50
and uh so we have a podcast and i write
07:53
some books and i teach and i
07:55
i do this sort of stuff too fun fun
07:58
so let's start out just going at some
08:00
hot button uh words
08:02
these are softballs for you but i think
08:03
they're going to be interesting for our
08:04
listeners
08:05
you're a full-blown scholar you've given
08:08
your adult life to the study of the
08:10
scriptures and
08:11
thinking about the scriptures talking
08:13
about the scriptures teaching the
08:14
scriptures
08:15
so i'm just going to ask you and can you
08:17
give me just a yes or no answer
08:19
do you believe that the bible is
08:24
inspired ask
08:26
ask somebody who's thought about this um
08:30
yes it depends on what you mean by
08:31
inspired okay so we've got a yes
08:34
no no i want you to qualify yes so i
08:37
mean because
08:38
can i it's a dumb question okay that's
08:39
what i'm saying it's just a really
08:40
really dumb question to open with that
08:42
makes no sense
08:43
it has to be so-called you know what i
08:46
mean
08:47
so uh so fine okay so now so we gotta
08:50
yeah
08:51
hating me on both sides
08:58
[Laughter]
09:00
please qualify and tell us what you mean
09:02
by you think the bible is inspired
09:04
well inspired meaning you know i i have
09:07
a view on that
09:08
where to be inspired doesn't mean it's
09:12
sort of
09:13
top-down dictation it's more
09:16
the mystery of god engaging humanity
09:19
in imperceptible ways so i think a bible
09:23
that
09:23
is at points contradictory or certainly
09:27
in tension with each other
09:28
where there are different portraits of
09:30
god different portraits of israel
09:31
different portraits of jesus
09:33
you can call that inspired meaning god's
09:37
presence
09:37
is in and with the text and people are
09:40
still connecting with
09:41
it people are struggling with it too but
09:43
it still works right so
09:45
i'd say it's more of a functional view
09:48
of
09:48
inspiration than let's say
09:52
a deeply like metaphysical or something
09:54
of you i just don't go for that because
09:55
it doesn't make any sense to me
09:57
yeah so that's as long as you allow me
09:59
to define my terms i can be very happy
10:01
with the whole
10:02
can you define the term functional yes
10:04
yeah what i mean is that it's
10:06
it we i i believe the writings
10:10
themselves were composed by people of
10:12
faith
10:14
who were
10:17
struggling with their relationship with
10:20
their god
10:20
relationship's a very modern word but
10:23
they're articulating their faith in god
10:25
and that works well and has worked well
10:30
for the history of scripture
10:31
both before christianity and after to
10:34
[Music]
10:36
function as a means of grace i think for
10:38
the church
10:40
so that's not like an ontological view
10:43
you know
10:43
of inspiration which to me is just too
10:46
abstract
10:46
and and all these abstract definitions i
10:50
think they sort of
10:51
wind up like crashing against the rocks
10:54
of the actual data of scripture
10:56
themselves which are very uncompromising
10:58
and not at all
11:00
um able to be accommodated i think
11:02
easily
11:03
to rather ethereal notions of
11:05
inspiration so
11:07
i guess i could say i have a very
11:08
anthropological kind of view of
11:09
inspiration it's sort of a bottom-up
11:11
thing
11:11
but god is a part of it and i don't know
11:15
how
11:16
but i know that it's working yeah so
11:18
maybe it implies
11:19
that there is an ontology we're just not
11:22
really confident about how to spell it
11:23
out would that be fair that could be
11:25
yeah that could be and and i might add
11:27
and without trying to be like snarky or
11:29
anything
11:30
i don't have a huge interest in trying
11:31
to figure that out but i'm glad other
11:33
people do
11:34
right so that's that's that that's their
11:35
interest and i just don't have an
11:37
interest
11:37
it's not your job you're a biblical
11:39
scholar i know i'm just a lowly biblical
11:41
scholar
11:42
so let me just scare me by the way i'll
11:45
try it i'll try not to
11:46
so one quick follow-up would you say
11:49
that
11:49
another sacred text like say the quran
11:52
or the bhagavad-gita could be inspired
11:54
in the same way
11:55
yeah we've inspired in the same way yeah
11:57
and i
11:58
i can't see why i can't say that but you
12:02
know what i mean i just i can't get out
12:03
of that
12:04
and i don't really want to get out of it
12:05
i think i think the world religions have
12:08
sacred texts and traditions
12:10
that i think god is behind all those as
12:12
well
12:13
and they kicked you out of
12:14
evangelicalism no
12:16
i left
12:17
[Laughter]
12:20
when you think aside i mean i know
12:23
evangelicals who will talk like that
12:24
right because i think people are coming
12:26
to grips with a shrinking world
12:28
and you know the more we have contact
12:31
with people we've never met before
12:32
and and the more we realize that you
12:34
know we're very much a product of where
12:36
we happen to be born
12:38
i think there are a lot of people having
12:39
conversations like that
12:41
and uh they just can't do it very openly
12:43
and you know i'm very glad that i'm
12:45
in a place just both professionally and
12:47
personally where
12:49
you know i can talk out loud and think
12:51
out loud about that i don't have
12:53
full conclusions on these things but if
12:55
you can't even utter the issue
12:57
or utter the question what are we doing
13:00
this for
13:01
right we're just playing a game at that
13:02
point and i just don't want to do that
13:04
so that's
13:04
i mean kyle that's where i am at this
13:06
point you know i'm happy to have my mind
13:08
changed at some point but
13:09
um you know that's where i am good so
13:12
pete when you say
13:13
um yes other sacred texts could be
13:16
inspired and you think
13:18
you said god mike could be behind them
13:20
explain that for
13:21
listeners so the people who have their
13:23
brains exploding out of their heads
13:25
right now
13:25
i know um explain that why did we start
13:28
with this this is what you end with this
13:30
is good
13:30
everybody's happy and they like me and
13:32
all that kind of stuff
13:34
yeah i guess what i mean by that i mean
13:36
what god is behind it
13:38
is i think any language i try to use to
13:41
explain that's going to be equally
13:43
inadequate i just think
13:44
the presence of god is fundamentally
13:47
spirit
13:48
that pervades everyone and everything
13:51
that's what i believe about god i don't
13:53
believe i can point to a place in the
13:55
sky and say that's where god is
13:56
i think god is fundamentally spirit
14:00
and um i hope
14:03
can handle the cosmos that we live in
14:07
right and and when i think of our tiny
14:09
little pale blue dot
14:10
planet as carl sagan says and the
14:13
different kinds of humans that live on
14:15
it
14:15
i i hope that god doesn't have a special
14:19
group
14:20
to the exclusion of everyone else right
14:23
so
14:23
so that's meaning god is you know c.s
14:26
lewis talked like this at the end of the
14:28
last battle of people who have read the
14:30
chronicles of narnia where
14:32
you know he um is talking to a soldier
14:35
of this god tash who's clearly a muslim
14:38
figure in the book
14:40
but he was convinced of you know the
14:43
truth of who aslan is and he was like
14:45
feeling really bad about not
14:47
following aslan and and aslan says
14:50
whatever you've done for tosh you've
14:51
done for me
14:53
and reading that in my early twenties
14:55
like okay i can live with this this is a
14:57
really interesting way of thinking about
14:58
it
14:59
and of course your next question should
15:01
be and if it's not it really should be
15:02
is what makes christianity unique
15:04
and all that sort of stuff and i think
15:06
all religions are unique
15:08
they're all they all have their
15:09
distinctive elements um
15:12
of course this is a five-hour answer
15:13
right i mean this is a big topic but
15:15
for me it really is the kind of story
15:18
that it tells about the way god shows up
15:20
with humanity
15:21
which is in a crucified humiliated
15:26
messiah and so to me that's a very
15:29
important element it's not the only
15:31
thing but it's a thing that i've latched
15:32
on to for a few years that
15:34
the whole honor and shame dynamic that
15:36
you have in antiquity
15:37
and certainly in the hebrew scriptures
15:39
and in greco-roman religion
15:42
that's just completely just obliterated
15:44
in the cross
15:45
where god willingly aligns
15:48
with humiliation which is what
15:50
crucifixion is
15:52
right it's not just it's not just a way
15:54
of dying it's it's humiliating it's
15:56
shameful
15:57
and you know if you want to start a
15:59
religion in the first century
16:01
your lead is not your founder was
16:03
crucified by the romans that that is
16:06
um rather absurd and so you know paul in
16:09
romans
16:09
has to say things like i'm not ashamed
16:11
of the gospel of christ it's the power
16:13
of god for salvation
16:15
why would he be ashamed well because of
16:17
how it started but he's saying that is
16:19
the power of god
16:21
that's the paradox and i think that's a
16:22
beautiful paradox to just sort of sit
16:24
with
16:24
and meditate with and and that's i mean
16:27
i would
16:28
so i would start with something like
16:30
that for understanding the
16:31
distinctiveness of christianity
16:34
but that the distinctiveness is the
16:36
mystery
16:37
right so we're sort of stuck there and
16:39
we can't really articulate it much
16:40
better so
16:40
that's great yeah i mean richard rohr
16:42
said if it's true somewhere it's true
16:44
anywhere
16:44
and if something is true it's of the
16:46
spirit and
16:47
the spirit is pursuing all people at all
16:49
times whether that's through their
16:51
sacred texts or
16:52
the stars or whatever yeah yeah i agree
16:55
with that yeah
16:56
i've got another i've got here's a the
16:58
lights flashing
16:59
obnoxious question coming okay another
17:02
one
17:02
um do you is the bible would you
17:05
consider the bible authoritative in your
17:07
life
17:09
it depends on what you mean by authority
17:12
yeah yeah i just
17:13
i know we'll qualify it in a second but
17:16
would you say yes or no to that
17:18
uh yes okay i would say definitely yes
17:21
to that
17:21
okay okay let's explain that
17:25
i think you know the way authority is
17:27
usually
17:28
assumed to be the case and let's say
17:30
popular christianity
17:32
is i would call it illegal authority
17:35
um here are the rules and it tells you
17:38
what to do and what to think i think the
17:39
bible's too diverse to handle that kind
17:41
of a model of authority
17:45
john goldengate for example he had
17:47
models of
17:48
um i think it's models of authority
17:50
actually the book is called something
17:52
like
17:52
30 years ago but you know there's also a
17:54
prophetic kind of authority
17:57
which is um calling for justice and
17:59
envisioning a new reality
18:02
vaguely just in in in um in a sketched
18:05
out sort of form well that's
18:07
that's a different kind of authority um
18:10
i think the bible's authoritative for
18:12
this in the sense that
18:14
when i think about god and when i think
18:17
about the nature of the christian faith
18:18
when i think about the gospel
18:20
i can't i don't make a move without
18:23
engaging
18:25
scripture the biblical tradition and how
18:27
the biblical tradition has been handled
18:30
so again we sort of come to let's say
18:32
functionally it certainly acts as an
18:34
author
18:34
authority and i i'm very much at peace
18:38
with that you know i
18:39
i think that's actually you can't you
18:42
can't
18:42
do this and say okay let's have a
18:45
christian conversation
18:46
well who cares about the bible you might
18:49
hate the bible but you can't
18:50
ignore it it's just it is what it is
18:52
with all its great stuff and all its
18:54
weird problems
18:56
in that sense it's acting as an
18:57
authority but it's an authority that
19:00
is not a um as i'd like to say a rule
19:04
book
19:04
authority it's more it sets a context
19:08
within which
19:10
we have this means of grace for um
19:14
engaging and experiencing the spirit
19:19
see that won't fly in like a tweet nope
19:22
right
19:22
good and i know and i won't but again
19:25
welcome to
19:26
being an adult and being in the
19:28
christian world and engaging
19:30
exceedingly complicated and
19:32
multi-layered answers
19:34
and um most of which aren't even a
19:36
handle that man i wish we had four hours
19:39
this is incredible uh yeah i'll go ahead
19:42
if you got any follow-ups or the next
19:43
one
19:44
well yeah so i personally wouldn't call
19:46
that authority
19:47
but again the word is super complicated
19:50
would it be fair to some other viewers
19:51
saying that
19:52
if you're going to make a decision as a
19:54
christian the bible will always be
19:56
relevant to that decision
20:00
yes um but i would say be careful and
20:04
i know you're not saying this but i
20:05
would say very careful not on the proof
20:07
texting level
20:08
sure but on let's say the metanarratival
20:11
level the big picture of scripture
20:14
taking into account debates within
20:16
scripture about very interesting issues
20:18
all that kind of stuff
20:20
yeah so yeah i mean i would i would say
20:21
that yeah so one more follow-up
20:24
um you just mentioned debates within
20:26
scripture just give us the the
20:28
three-minute version of like
20:29
wait there's debates within scripture
20:32
what do you mean yeah i mean there are
20:33
differences of opinion and i think the
20:35
classic
20:36
new testament example is that peter and
20:38
paul
20:39
and probably james clearly did not get
20:41
along
20:42
you know they had a very significant
20:44
debate
20:45
that you know paul says was eventually
20:47
settled the book of acts sort of papers
20:50
over it a little bit
20:51
but galatians doesn't and james
20:53
certainly doesn't because
20:54
james is essentially arguing the
20:57
opposite of what paul argues
20:59
and they're both in scripture and i
21:00
think you know paul won that argument i
21:02
guess
21:04
but at a loss for the kinds of things
21:06
that i think james was saying about
21:09
works and faith and the relationship
21:10
between those two things so you have
21:12
that
21:12
and in the old testament um you know the
21:15
book of job very briefly
21:18
uh he's having a bad day right things
21:20
are not working out and his friends are
21:22
sad for him but they say listen you're
21:24
suffering what did you do to deserve
21:26
that
21:28
um because you know the the righteous
21:30
are blessed and the work that are cursed
21:32
you're clearly cursed job what did you
21:33
do
21:34
and his friends are really espousing a
21:37
very
21:37
orthodox theology that you find you know
21:40
prevalent
21:41
and not all over the not everywhere but
21:43
prevalent in the old testament
21:45
of sort of a retributive justice kind of
21:47
theory
21:48
and yeah like deuteronomy is huge the
21:51
deuteronomistic history which is you
21:52
know first and second kings and first
21:54
and second samuel they
21:55
that's very much the case proverbs sort
21:57
of sits there
21:59
some psalms sit there you know psalm 1
22:01
there are two kinds of people the
22:02
righteous and the wicked the righteous
22:04
be planted the wicked will be driven
22:05
away like jeff
22:07
so they're not saying anything like you
22:09
can't look at job's friends and say
22:12
you've got horrible theology no they
22:13
have really good biblical theology
22:15
and that's probably something that job
22:17
espoused himself
22:19
because he had a lot of stuff he was
22:22
well off and he was like
22:23
super hyper worshiper of god you know
22:25
sacrificing for his children and stuff
22:27
like that
22:28
but then he starts suffering and
22:31
his friends say you know what did you do
22:33
to deserve that and job says
22:35
i didn't do anything and they said yeah
22:37
you did and he goes
22:38
i didn't and they said yeah you did and
22:41
job says
22:42
i didn't it goes on for like 30 chapters
22:43
like that
22:46
and then at the end the beautiful end of
22:48
job where
22:49
um god appears and sort of settles the
22:52
debate if it were only that easy
22:55
and he looks at one of job's three
22:57
friends and he said my wrath is kindled
22:59
against you
23:00
for you have not spoken rightly of me as
23:03
my servant job has
23:06
job is maintaining his innocence he was
23:08
he was
23:09
cutting off the classic
23:13
you know blessings come because you're
23:17
righteous
23:17
and and cursing doesn't and so you have
23:20
the book of job the climax of the story
23:24
not sitting well with you know
23:28
deuteronomy and other places and i and
23:31
the thing is that you know when the
23:32
bible was put together
23:35
probably after the babylonian exile and
23:37
who knows how much long after
23:38
but the those who were responsible for
23:41
making these kinds of decisions
23:43
were not idiots they knew what they were
23:46
reading
23:47
but all of it encompasses the experience
23:50
of israel
23:51
yeah and that's a good thing for us to
23:53
remember too
23:55
you know there's not just the triumph
23:56
there's also the pain and
23:58
and see having that debate i think gives
24:01
us permission
24:02
to to say okay
24:07
how am i perceiving god at this moment
24:09
and
24:10
and to be honest about that right and i
24:13
think scripture
24:14
scripture gives us that permission back
24:16
to authority in that sense there's an
24:18
authoritative
24:19
dimension even if you know kyle we might
24:21
want to use another word for that which
24:22
i'm fine with you know um
24:24
but that's how i think it works yeah so
24:26
like on any really simplistic view of
24:28
authority that you might find in a kind
24:30
of fundamentalism
24:31
you've got a problem here because the
24:32
authority is itself deeply internally
24:34
conflicted
24:36
yes exactly the authoritative text
24:39
is not on the same page and
24:42
you cannot have that right with certain
24:45
models
24:46
of see not just biblical authority but i
24:48
think actually certain models of what
24:50
god is like
24:50
i think it's that deep of an issue it's
24:52
not just the bible
24:54
it's the fact that the bible has to be a
24:55
certain way to protect god being a
24:57
certain way
24:58
and i just love how the bible just um
25:02
it keeps um
25:05
challenging theological systems
25:08
including my own
25:09
right not just the bad guys but it's
25:11
just it's not it's not an easily
25:12
systematized
25:14
collection of writings yeah and just
25:16
just to add on for our listeners you
25:17
might be wondering
25:18
you would agree that it's not an
25:20
accident that there is debate within the
25:22
bible correct pete
25:24
not at all i think it's again even just
25:26
from an anthropological human
25:28
point of view this is valued you know
25:30
when you have psalms that are like god's
25:32
the best
25:33
the other ones are saying uh you're
25:35
never around when we need you
25:37
you know and even psalm 89 which
25:40
basically calls god a liar
25:42
for sending the judahites into
25:44
babylonian exile because you
25:46
promised this would never happen you
25:47
said there would always be somebody
25:49
sitting on the throne one of david's
25:51
sons
25:51
and it hasn't happened right so
25:54
challenging god
25:56
is part of the scriptural tradition and
26:00
part of the life of faith and i think
26:01
the israelites in their wisdom
26:04
which let's call it an inspired wisdom
26:06
right in their wisdom
26:09
all of this belongs and you can't get
26:11
rid of it to smooth it over
26:13
yeah i think to me that's the beauty of
26:15
the bible that's what makes it worth
26:16
reading
26:17
sometimes you see these things and we
26:19
recognize our own struggles with it both
26:21
maybe collectively
26:23
but also individually there's something
26:25
there for everybody
26:26
yeah that's really great for listeners
26:29
that are wondering the
26:30
my preferred take on it as the
26:32
philosopher that's here in the podcast
26:34
is uh
26:34
the bible is evidence about what god is
26:36
like and
26:38
there's lots of different kinds of
26:39
evidence about what god is like and it
26:41
has
26:41
you know there are different methods of
26:42
assessing evidence that are appropriate
26:44
to the specific kind of evidence you
26:45
have but
26:46
we wouldn't consider that authority
26:48
because it doesn't have any more claim
26:50
on our attention than any other type of
26:52
evidence at least not
26:53
you know essentially so yeah
26:56
that simplifies the whole thing for me
26:59
philosophers are allergic to authority
27:01
it's like in our dna to buck against it
27:03
so
27:03
but we love evidence how about this how
27:05
about this not to make it even more
27:06
complicated but how about adding a
27:08
wrinkle to that
27:09
it's it's evidence right of
27:12
of god that's what you're saying
27:16
maybe a step before that it's evidence
27:19
of how people understood god given to a
27:21
certain context
27:22
yes but i would also add to the i would
27:24
also add to the story that there isn't
27:25
anything else
27:28
like so so one of one of my assumptions
27:30
is that how people have understood what
27:32
god is
27:33
is all there is to what god is
27:37
yeah i actually i think that's if i can
27:39
compliment you i think it's a very
27:40
profound and important point that you're
27:41
making because
27:43
it ensures that we not trap god
27:46
into a system of our own making you know
27:48
creating god in our own image
27:50
yeah i think i think that protects the
27:52
mystery of god which
27:53
in my life over the past 15 years has
27:55
become
27:57
not an escape route but just a
27:59
realization
28:00
that um like aquinas you know when he
28:04
died supposedly i mean you might have
28:05
better than i do
28:07
basically he said what the heck what was
28:10
that all about
28:12
i wish i had written all that stuff you
28:13
know and i think that's true
28:15
you know um well even but even when he
28:18
was
28:19
yeah even when he was writing the stuff
28:21
though like so
28:22
and lest a listener think oh my god this
28:25
is off the deep end liberal
28:26
this is squarely orthodox
28:30
philosophy he was very clear before his
28:33
revelation at the end of his life
28:35
that everything we've said about god is
28:37
an analogy
28:39
right the whole thing is a metaphor
28:42
and what that does is it might be scary
28:45
for people
28:45
to hear that but what that absolutely
28:48
protects is that no one can co-opt god
28:50
yes no one can attain god so to speak
28:53
and
28:54
and um be the ones who divvy god out to
28:58
others
28:59
right so pastors are freaking out all
29:02
over the country right now
29:03
and by the way however many two dozen
29:05
listeners you have i don't know what's
29:06
going on
29:07
yeah on a good day now but but like by
29:09
the way also
29:10
aquinas since he's you know we're
29:13
considering his view here loved muslim
29:16
philosophy
29:17
so let it be known oh that aquinas well
29:20
that was the age wasn't it that was the
29:21
age when there was a lot of maybe
29:23
engagement between
29:24
yeah you know christian catholic
29:26
philosophers and muslim
29:28
and and jewish philosophers too right
29:30
that was like the good old days where
29:32
people got along they weren't trying to
29:33
kill each other
29:34
[Music]
29:35
he loved the pagans he loved aristotle
29:37
he loved all of it and he
29:38
he found just as much truth in those
29:40
traditions as in his own
29:42
and hence is trying to synthesize these
29:44
right and and um
29:46
yeah boy we've we've definitely lost
29:49
that
29:49
haven't we i mean not not entirely but
29:52
it's not
29:54
yeah that's just not the way christians
29:55
are supposed to be you know that's
29:57
what's heretically
29:58
i think yeah yeah so so let's uh let's
30:02
roll this into
30:03
a brief discussion about exodus if we
30:06
can because you just wrote a book on
30:07
exodus came out earlier this year
30:09
exodus for normal people uh so
30:12
right off the bat in that book you lay
30:15
out some basics
30:16
about exodus that i want to ask you
30:18
about so you say
30:20
wasn't written by moses compiled
30:23
centuries after the events it describes
30:25
we don't know who compiled it
30:27
there's almost no evidence that any of
30:29
it happened at least as described in the
30:30
book
30:32
just kind of lay out this stuff right at
30:33
the beginning
30:35
so so given that given these facts
30:39
what do you think the significance of
30:40
that book is for modern christians why
30:42
does it matter
30:44
yeah i think you know they're probably
30:50
potentially very different answers to
30:51
that question and
30:53
um one is
30:56
i i i think the theology of a book
30:59
and let's say the truth of the theology
31:02
can actually transcend the history
31:05
or be a side of the history so um
31:08
you know i love the story of exodus and
31:11
this is how ancient israelites
31:14
understood god to be very genuinely very
31:18
authentically and it's stuck
31:19
you know it's like the core narrative
31:22
the whole sinai exodus thing is the core
31:24
narrative of the hebrew scriptures
31:26
for us today it really depends on who
31:28
the us is
31:29
um i used to have problems with
31:33
liberation theology's appropriation of
31:35
the exodus story because it's not really
31:37
sticking to what it originally meant but
31:39
that was many years ago i don't think
31:40
that way anymore i think
31:42
i think people have found oppressed
31:45
peoples have found
31:47
tremendous solace in the book of exodus
31:50
that
31:50
god ultimately champions the oppressed
31:55
and you know we can discuss the nuances
31:57
of that
31:58
and you know if god champions the
32:00
oppressed why is it okay to have slaves
32:02
you know later on in exodus i understand
32:04
that that's one of the many theological
32:07
conundrums in exodus but still in
32:09
principle i think it's a good idea
32:11
um i think you know for christians
32:13
there's the
32:14
broader like biblical theological
32:17
engagement with the text where like the
32:20
book of
32:21
hebrews does you know like jesus is
32:24
moses 2.0
32:25
and bringing us out of slavery into new
32:28
life
32:29
so i think it's it's that's a different
32:31
kind of appropriation more
32:34
what we often do with the old testament
32:36
which is not really stick to what the
32:38
story is but sort of take it to another
32:40
direction
32:42
and for me i mean again i think this is
32:46
sort of a more nerdy kind of answer
32:48
but i really want to understand
32:54
ancient hebrew israelite theology i want
32:57
to understand how they thought
32:59
even if i look at that and say
33:02
i just this doesn't make sense to me it
33:05
doesn't jive with
33:06
my experience of god it doesn't jive for
33:09
me very well with
33:10
certain things i read elsewhere in the
33:12
bible but
33:14
at one point in time this was an
33:16
authentic articulation of faith
33:18
and to struggle with that even if i then
33:21
say well
33:22
okay i i do think differently as do
33:24
other christians think differently
33:27
but i've done the hard work of
33:28
respecting the story and not just
33:30
glancing over it
33:31
and i think what that does ultimately is
33:33
it makes for a much richer
33:35
and much more nuanced theology we don't
33:38
just paper over these stories and make
33:39
them say whatever you want them to say
33:42
so follow-up question that pete i a
33:45
couple of years ago you had a scholar on
33:46
talking about
33:47
the reality that there's no
33:48
archaeological evidence that the exodus
33:50
actually happened um
33:52
and i talked to a family member that
33:54
evening and it kind of short circuited
33:56
things you know i got one of those
33:57
delicious emails where they're
33:58
questioning my faith because i
34:00
said you know the accidents might not
34:01
have happened you want to start doing
34:03
that by the way you need to
34:04
stop doing that but anyway that's
34:07
another
34:07
it wound up really wonderful it's great
34:09
okay um
34:11
however i think that person summed up a
34:14
lot of
34:14
christendom you know modern
34:16
christendom's question which is
34:17
basically
34:19
the bible is told us that the exodus
34:21
actually happened
34:22
which if you think of inspiration in
34:24
that certain simplistic way that means
34:25
that god
34:26
told us the exodus actually happened
34:28
that means that if it didn't actually
34:29
happen
34:29
god might be lying to us or the bible
34:31
isn't true and trustworthy
34:33
and then you can put other old testament
34:35
events in there whether or not jonah was
34:36
actually swallowed by a great fish or
34:38
whether or not a
34:39
global flood actually did happen or so
34:41
on and so forth
34:42
so can you tell us tell our listeners
34:44
why
34:46
exodus might be useful even if there's a
34:48
possibility that it didn't happen
34:51
well i think um there i think there are
34:55
some larger questions behind that that i
34:57
think
34:58
you can't get to that right without
35:01
clearing some
35:02
ground um i mean you said before and i
35:05
appreciate this the uh you know the
35:06
bible says it actually happened
35:08
the bible doesn't say anything people
35:11
interpret what the bible says
35:13
and that's that's again that's a subtle
35:15
point
35:16
and perhaps far too subtle for some and
35:19
i understand that and my job isn't to
35:20
get them to understand that subtlety i'm
35:22
just saying that for me
35:25
um you know the joke about the professor
35:28
who you know um is engaging a student
35:33
in seminary and the student says well
35:35
the bible says
35:36
he goes okay open open the bible to that
35:39
page
35:40
and don't say anything right so he sits
35:43
there for five
35:44
minutes and he goes well you know the
35:46
professor goes well and he goes well
35:47
what
35:48
what's it saying it's not saying you
35:51
have to read it and interpret it and
35:53
that's the hermeneutical
35:54
reality of the bible it always has to be
35:57
interpretive so
35:58
so you know those places where you know
36:01
exodus
36:02
is claimed as history well
36:05
see now we get into the genre issue
36:07
right we have to understand these texts
36:09
according to genre
36:11
and the problem is you know what kind of
36:13
literature is it
36:14
right um a historical narrative is
36:16
different than a poem is different than
36:19
a mythic retelling of something and the
36:21
question is
36:22
okay well what is the genre of exodus
36:25
good question
36:27
welcome to the conversation welcome to
36:29
the the um
36:31
the debate you know and and what most
36:33
scholars say
36:34
i mean i really do mean most scholars
36:36
say something like this
36:38
you have clearly a historical something
36:41
in this story it's things like
36:43
you're not going to make this up you
36:45
know
36:46
but the evidence makes the history very
36:49
complicated the evidence that we do have
36:51
even within the bible itself means that
36:54
whatever happened
36:55
probably doesn't line up with the story
36:57
itself the story is as i say in the book
37:00
it's mythicized history it's history
37:04
but it's given a layer of theological
37:07
meaning
37:08
in antiquity which is often expressed in
37:11
mythological terms which we get to find
37:13
that too but i don't mean
37:15
i don't mean fairy tale i mean just the
37:17
way ancient people thought about the
37:18
divine realm and how the divine realm
37:20
connects with the human wrong
37:22
so it complicates that question it would
37:24
be very hard for me
37:27
to to just answer that question let's
37:30
say in a tweet
37:32
for someone and i would try to i would i
37:35
would try not to go
37:36
into all this kind of stuff and maybe
37:37
ask some questions about
37:40
you know what kind of literature is
37:42
exodus well it's it's clearly historical
37:45
literature well
37:46
it there's much more going on there than
37:48
that than just historical
37:50
you know what we mean by historical
37:53
literature the ancient
37:54
israelites probably didn't right yeah
37:57
i'm not sure if they had a word for
37:58
historical literature
37:59
um and i'm not sure if they made
38:02
such a sharp division the way modern
38:04
people do
38:06
between history and
38:09
um creative engagement with
38:13
their own context you know i mean i'm
38:15
trying not to say myth again because
38:17
it's
38:17
i know it's a trigger word but myth
38:19
doesn't mean not
38:20
true in antiquity it means
38:24
deeply true in ways that transcend the
38:27
accidents of history so to speak
38:29
yeah and and you know but that's a hard
38:31
thing to wrap your head around because
38:33
you really have to spend time
38:35
to see that and to accept it and it's
38:38
not easy i don't i don't expect people
38:39
just oh yeah that's fine i get that
38:41
you know yep i mean it kind of fits with
38:43
a god who
38:44
incarnates and you know god comes in the
38:47
flesh and then just
38:48
starts telling stories that maybe might
38:51
might not have happened
38:52
seems consistent that's trying to con
38:54
communicate the deepest truths
38:56
human beings can ever wrap our heads
38:58
around and and
39:00
not just any human beings but the
39:01
ancient human beings
39:03
and who already had a world
39:08
and their their religious faith
39:11
is understood within the context of what
39:13
their understanding of everything else
39:15
right so you have genesis 1 which is
39:19
a wonderful story of creation of the
39:21
cosmos which
39:23
is really very fruitfully understood
39:25
within the context of ancient
39:27
you know babylonian and canaanite
39:29
stories
39:30
and because that's their world
39:33
right um we have assumptions too about
39:38
the nature of reality whether it's you
39:39
know
39:40
economic realities we don't have a
39:42
barter system anymore you know we
39:44
we think in terms of cash and credit and
39:46
we don't question that and
39:48
you know we use metaphors all the time
39:51
for talking about god
39:52
that makes sense you know god's the ceo
39:55
or something like that or you know
39:56
even you know god is deeply concerned
39:58
with family values
40:00
right that's that's bringing our own
40:03
values
40:03
into our discussion of god which is i
40:06
think
40:07
unavoidable right to to um
40:10
to create god in our own image i think
40:12
is part of doing theology you have to
40:14
hold it lightly
40:15
and let that be critiqued and and ready
40:18
to change but
40:20
you know kyle like you're saying our
40:21
language of god is always metaphorical
40:23
it's analogical or something it's not
40:25
direct we're we're just people and
40:29
you know then how do you know that you
40:31
know any of this is real
40:33
i don't know but there is the mystery of
40:34
incarnation too where god is deeply
40:37
embedded in humanity
40:38
so maybe these things have a truth to
40:41
them because
40:42
of its humanity and not despite it
40:46
you know it's good yeah let me ask you a
40:49
theological question i know you're a
40:50
biblical scholar but i know you also
40:52
have thoughts about this particular
40:53
question so
40:54
okay uh just from like a cursory read of
40:57
exodus the god of exodus
40:59
does not come off as what you might call
41:02
even tempered
41:04
so how do we square what we find in a
41:06
book like exodus with what we find
41:08
in the new testament teaching of god as
41:12
the kind of god who expects you to love
41:13
your enemies
41:15
yeah i mean um
41:19
first i mean just i agree with the fact
41:22
that that is a legitimate dilemma
41:24
um you do have the ananias and sapphira
41:27
story in the book of acts
41:30
and there's a lot of blood in the book
41:31
of revelation so you do have moments
41:33
right although some people would say
41:35
well those writers didn't get god either
41:37
but they have this view of god that
41:39
doesn't work which i think is a pretty
41:40
good argument but
41:41
um but yeah how do we square that and
41:45
for me again you're asking me for my
41:47
opinion um
41:49
i simply chalk that up to
41:53
watching the i don't want to use the
41:56
word progress but more just the
41:59
developing even evolving views of god in
42:02
scripture
42:03
where in a context that's fundamentally
42:07
tribalistic
42:09
where like the gods one of the gods
42:12
chief functions the head gods she
42:14
functions is to basically go to war
42:17
you know either with other gods up there
42:20
which is part of the flood uh
42:22
the um the plague narratives in exodus
42:25
there's a lot of that going on there
42:27
um but even you know with with um
42:31
with you know other gods like um
42:35
uh actually what i'm actually trying to
42:37
say is that the the warrior mentality
42:40
is your god is going out not just to
42:42
beat up other gods but to
42:43
beat up other people and your god is
42:47
great
42:48
by virtue of how successful god is
42:50
militarily
42:51
and i i will say without qualification i
42:55
do not believe that describes the way
42:57
god
42:58
is what did i just say a mouthful what i
43:01
know about god is but i don't believe
43:03
that
43:04
but i know that they did because if i
43:06
were living
43:07
in the iron age i would be thinking the
43:10
same thing so it's not a condescension
43:13
it's not even a disrespect it's to say
43:16
that the bible keeps moving
43:19
and god's always sort of out ahead of
43:20
people i think in the bible there's
43:22
always something
43:22
else there's always a surprise that god
43:25
is doing
43:26
that sort of critiques or even in some
43:30
cases shatters
43:31
other views of looking at god and i
43:33
think that's
43:34
that's not a new testament verses old
43:36
testament thing that's happening within
43:38
the old testament itself
43:40
and it's certainly happening in the new
43:42
where i think it's actually taken up a
43:43
notch
43:44
where there's very little in the gospel
43:47
story that you would really actually get
43:49
from reading the old testament story
43:51
there's something always being turned
43:53
around and flipped around and
43:56
even the honor and shame thing we talked
43:57
about before that's that's a totally
43:59
different kind of
44:01
um uh you know uh way of looking at god
44:05
that's
44:05
just changing i think in the new
44:07
testament so i would sort of look at it
44:09
as basically i mean i don't
44:11
i don't really like the term too much
44:13
it's fine but um
44:15
progressive revelation yeah that's not
44:18
anthropological enough for me
44:20
the way i think about the development of
44:22
the bible but there is
44:23
a progressiveness within the bible
44:26
itself
44:26
and that's how i basically look at that
44:28
and say
44:31
you don't have to you don't have to take
44:33
everything in the bible and make it all
44:35
fit and here's your picture of god sort
44:37
of a frankenstein that you've stitched
44:38
together
44:40
it's it's different i think it's more um
44:44
showing us that change is inevitable in
44:47
how we think about god and
44:49
i'm not sure if that just sort of
44:50
magically stopped at the end of the new
44:52
testament either yeah
44:54
yep brian zahn when we talked to him he
44:56
put it this way that i really enjoyed he
44:57
said
44:58
the bible seems to be on a journey of
44:59
discovery along with us
45:01
moving towards the incarnation and that
45:03
helped me
45:04
yeah yeah i would add though that even
45:06
with the incarnation
45:08
things have kept moving and kept
45:10
changing and developing right
45:11
because um the new testament has its own
45:14
context
45:15
right um but and fundamentally i agree
45:18
with that but
45:19
um the incarnate
45:22
the the mystery of incarnation hasn't
45:24
stopped yeah
45:26
it's just like the volume was turned up
45:29
you know in the new testament but it's
45:31
it's still going
45:32
and my my proof text for that is the
45:35
entire history of christianity
45:36
which has had philosophical movements
45:39
and changes and adaptations
45:41
and um some of them probably not great
45:44
but many of them probably fantastic and
45:47
inevitable
45:48
you know yeah on that theme of the bible
45:51
meaning different things now maybe than
45:52
it
45:53
used to given changes in context a very
45:55
recent application of
45:57
the book of exodus happened at that
45:59
conservative committee conference
46:01
earlier this year and back in february
46:03
you may know where i'm going with this
46:05
where they repeat it yeah i'm not sure
46:07
so this is the cpac conference i think
46:09
and somebody brought in
46:10
a giant golden statue of donald trump
46:14
and then christian twitter went crazy
46:16
through the comparisons to the golden
46:18
calf the next
46:19
now who knows if whoever made that
46:21
statue had actually
46:22
read exodus or intended that to be a
46:24
reference or not
46:25
not going to speculate on that but can
46:27
you maybe comment on the meaning of the
46:29
golden calf story and explain what if
46:32
anything you think it might have to say
46:34
about our current political climate
46:37
um well i guess let's take the second
46:40
one first um
46:43
people say why can't i apply the bible
46:45
this way
46:47
well i think this is where the the broad
46:50
prophetic tradition of the bible can
46:52
come in really handy because
46:55
when it's about self-aggrandizement and
46:57
power and political power it's critiqued
47:00
right so this is not something that is
47:03
for the let's say
47:07
the the movement of the gospel
47:10
speaking as christians it's
47:13
to baptize a political party
47:16
or one political figure and using
47:20
the bible in a biblical story perhaps to
47:22
do that
47:24
and um that's so much
47:28
that is so i think that is so
47:29
fundamentally contradictory
47:32
to the biblical witness whether it's for
47:35
the prophetic voice
47:36
or whether it's you know jesus in the
47:39
sermon on the mount or whether it's
47:40
paul calling jesus lord when there was
47:43
already somebody occupying that title
47:45
politically caesar
47:47
um so i mean i would look at that that
47:49
way but
47:51
the other one we know what is the golden
47:53
calf story about that's a really good
47:55
question um
47:57
basically it's with the absence you know
48:01
dad goes away
48:03
moses and he's off talking to god and
48:06
what the israelites do
48:07
is simply collapse into the natural way
48:11
in which people um
48:15
come into the presence of the gods which
48:17
is through some sort of a symbol an idol
48:19
we call it an idol something carved it
48:22
could be stone it could be wood
48:24
right it could be clay something and
48:27
they're doing what comes
48:29
sort of naturally to them as ancient
48:31
people
48:32
and it's that very thing that is so
48:34
roundly condemned by god
48:36
that see this is the thing god's out
48:39
ahead of them
48:40
right you don't worship me the way
48:43
other peoples worship their gods you
48:45
don't do this even though it's like the
48:47
most natural thing
48:48
you know relatively innocent really from
48:51
an ancient point of view
48:52
um but i think to me that's one of the
48:55
points at least of the
48:56
uh of the golden calf story which
49:00
um you know moses
49:04
has to calm god down after that
49:07
and that's one of those uh you know
49:10
sort of imbalanced deity kinds of things
49:12
like i'm just gonna kill everybody
49:14
moses says don't do that because the
49:15
nations will say what kind of a god are
49:17
you
49:17
dragging him into the desert just to let
49:19
him die god says you know you're right
49:21
but i want to still want some people to
49:23
die so they go through the camp and kill
49:24
three thousand israelites you know um
49:26
the levites go through and kill three
49:28
thousand israelites okay that's weird
49:31
but i can bracket that stuff
49:34
from other things in the story that i
49:36
think
49:37
has let's say more abiding value for us
49:40
to think through
49:41
and you know people will say well you're
49:43
just picking and choosing you don't
49:44
write on picking and choosing that's the
49:46
history of christian thought we pick and
49:48
choose
49:49
not all of the bible is equally ultimate
49:51
right we pick and choose
49:53
um the entire old testament isn't
49:56
alluded to in the new testament you know
49:58
the writers are picking and choosing
49:59
there too yeah yeah
50:01
yeah jesus did that jesus picked and
50:03
choose jesus didn't
50:05
cite all the all the old testament
50:07
scriptures the hebrew scriptures so
50:09
we started out this time with asking
50:11
those annoying questions
50:13
um i got another one for you all right
50:15
um
50:17
can you tell us where in the bible what
50:20
does the bible have to say
50:21
there's millions of people who believe
50:22
in biblical inerrancy millions of
50:25
christians
50:26
what does the bible have to say about
50:27
biblical inerrancy
50:30
um nothing
50:35
in my opinion i mean inerrancy is
50:39
i mean even like augustine talked about
50:41
how the bible doesn't have errors
50:43
but he didn't mean anything like what
50:45
has meant in the past say a couple
50:46
hundred years by the term it's really to
50:48
protect against
50:51
german higher criticism and the fact
50:54
that darwin's wrong
50:56
and the fact that archaeology can't
50:58
relativize the bible we're going to
50:59
protect it by this word inerrancy
51:02
and in doing so you're protecting god
51:04
right that's that's sort of what it's
51:06
about so
51:07
i don't think there's anything in the
51:08
bible that really
51:10
can be used to defend that i mean and
51:12
all scripture is
51:13
god breathed and all that and the thing
51:16
is i understand that
51:18
and anyone who thinks that that's a
51:20
proof text for inerrancy
51:22
all i can say is i mean gently read
51:26
read what how commentaries sort of
51:28
understand that and not because they
51:29
hate
51:30
jesus but because that's not really
51:32
saying
51:34
you know everything the bible says is
51:36
historically accurate
51:38
where there are no contradictions it's
51:39
not saying that at all and
51:42
whatever proof text you can find you
51:45
have to match that up
51:47
with the data you know how the bible
51:51
behaves you can make abstract
51:53
points out of a verse taken out of
51:55
context but when you watch what it's
51:57
doing you know the bible begins with two
51:59
creation stories you can't reconcile
52:01
yes you know you have four gospels
52:03
you've got two histories of israel
52:05
you've got
52:06
you've got laws in exodus leviticus
52:08
numbers and deuteronomy that are clearly
52:10
about the same thing but they don't
52:11
agree
52:12
you know what do you do with that if you
52:14
want to say inerrancy
52:16
and accept those things and that's fine
52:18
but you've really just redefined an
52:20
errand scene in a way that
52:22
it just renders null and void the reason
52:24
why the term was used in the first place
52:27
which is to protect the bible against
52:28
having those kinds of problems
52:30
which it clearly has right so i just
52:32
it's so
52:33
it's so flies in the face of it and a
52:36
face of the bible and
52:38
you know the way it's been said to me
52:39
like so p you think there are errors in
52:41
the bible
52:42
that makes you an errantist and my
52:45
answer is like
52:46
no the whole thing's a category mistake
52:49
those are not the words we use to
52:51
describe
52:52
this beautifully diverse very messy
52:55
disruptive collection of texts that
52:58
defies
52:59
our little taglines which are really not
53:02
meant to protect the bible frankly
53:04
they're meant to protect our theological
53:05
systems right because that's really what
53:08
it comes down to it's it's
53:10
there's one meaning it's true and by the
53:12
way we have it
53:13
that church down the street they don't
53:16
right
53:16
and it becomes more a combative thing
53:19
than
53:19
actually descriptive of the bible it
53:21
creates trauma for people
53:23
when you know they're 25 years old and
53:25
they sort of say i don't really have
53:26
anything to do with christianity
53:28
because i don't believe the bible's an
53:29
errand like well most christians don't
53:32
not the way you were raised there are so
53:34
many other ways of thinking
53:35
about this yep yeah and for those who
53:39
have been in that faith crisis
53:40
of needing being told that if the bible
53:44
isn't
53:44
inerrant it's not legitimate you can't
53:46
trust it
53:47
just welcome to this spacious place
53:49
where you don't have to have that tight
53:51
little theology that
53:52
where it's like a jenga tower and you
53:54
pull one thing out and it all crumbles
53:56
it's way more spacious way more
53:58
enjoyable way more delightful and
54:00
complex than that
54:01
and what if god enjoys that space yes
54:04
with us
54:05
right that's the thing is because i
54:06
think the the trauma is like god's gonna
54:08
be mad at me
54:11
and we're told not to be flipped but
54:16
then why did god give us this bible like
54:18
this
54:19
right i mean it's like
54:22
the problem is one of our own creation
54:25
it doesn't come from the bible it
54:27
doesn't come from biblical teaching
54:29
it comes from ways of reading the bible
54:31
within certain historical contexts
54:34
that
54:37
will work until i mean forgive me it'll
54:40
work until you start reading the bible
54:41
carefully
54:42
yes and really taking the details
54:44
seriously and then you see
54:45
this doesn't fit with that you know it
54:48
just doesn't fit
54:50
you know so look quick time check-in i
54:54
just realized you're on eastern time
54:55
right so you probably just have a few
54:56
minutes left
54:58
yeah i mean i can i can be a couple
55:00
minutes late so if
55:01
we can sort of maybe buy one o'clock my
55:04
time
55:04
like maybe another eight or nine minutes
55:06
or something like that all right
55:08
i'll ask one more question and then
55:10
whatever you have randy
55:11
um so your podcast the bible for normal
55:14
people has been super influential
55:16
amongst progressive christians including
55:18
us and a major strength of it
55:20
is that it introduces listeners to
55:22
non-christian biblical scholarship
55:25
which in many cases turns out to be
55:27
maybe better
55:29
christian biblical scholarship maybe
55:31
because they're not working
55:32
within some of the same kind of limiting
55:34
assumptions that christian scholars
55:36
particularly evangelical scholars
55:38
sometimes are
55:39
so you guys have this strong ecumenical
55:41
strong interfaith
55:42
you know aspect here to your podcast so
55:45
let me put the question to you this way
55:47
as a biblical scholar who runs a podcast
55:49
like that
55:50
somebody that's still a christian do you
55:52
think that christians have any special
55:54
insight
55:55
into understanding their own sacred text
56:01
um yeah i think they do
56:04
you know but i think others do as well
56:07
including
56:08
you know jews reading the new testament
56:10
you know especially jewish scholars
56:12
reading the new testament can give us
56:13
jewish background but you know i
56:15
certainly do and
56:17
you know i'd say most of the people we
56:19
have on the podcast
56:21
are christian of some variety although
56:23
we have many jews we've had one or two
56:25
atheists as well but
56:26
um but i think all of them can have
56:29
insights you know
56:30
into this text and sometimes we get you
56:32
know so close to it
56:34
that um as somebody once said we're so
56:38
committed to
56:40
having the truth that when the truth
56:43
actually shows
56:44
up we don't recognize that we don't see
56:45
it right and sometimes we need help
56:47
from outside of um our own
56:50
tribe to sort of see that but um yeah i
56:53
mean
56:54
the rich history of christian thinking
56:57
you know the history of christian
56:58
thought is
57:01
quite a beautiful and complex thing to
57:03
say that you know
57:04
those are devoid of insights even if
57:07
they're insights that people move
57:08
past there's still insights you know
57:12
and and we need to make our mistakes and
57:14
our missteps to
57:15
to keep moving on so yep
57:18
so pete last question then um i know
57:20
that there
57:21
we get messages from people who say my
57:23
faith was hanging on by a thread and
57:25
you know the conversations that you guys
57:26
open up have have saved that in some
57:29
ways so we know that there's some
57:30
people who are in the middle of
57:31
deconstruction maybe um our their faith
57:34
is or literally hanging on by thread
57:35
maybe they just said i
57:36
i don't identify as a price follower
57:38
anymore because of the bible because of
57:41
christians because of
57:42
the church because of all sorts of
57:43
things i love your take and your
57:46
perspective
57:46
what would you just have to say to to
57:49
listeners
57:50
in that place in their life and their
57:51
faith journey right now
57:54
um i think
57:57
as counter-intuitive as it might feel
57:59
i'd say you have to
58:01
be authentic in what you're thinking and
58:05
feeling
58:05
and i think god honors that and um
58:09
it's also okay and normal
58:12
to be in a place of being
58:16
disassembled you know spiritually
58:19
because
58:20
um you know i guess
58:23
what i've learned in my life from others
58:25
is that
58:27
you know when you see your your faith in
58:30
god sort of slipping away
58:32
it's it's really more maybe
58:36
how you've understood god to be which
58:39
has worked
58:40
great but there's always something
58:42
beyond that
58:43
and so you're not really abandoning god
58:47
again whatever we mean by that term
58:49
that's a whole of the risk
58:52
but um you may be more needing to get
58:55
past
58:56
equating our thoughts with god with god
58:59
and our thoughts are helpful
59:00
they're metaphors you know they're ways
59:02
of understanding god of communion with
59:04
god
59:05
but when we lock god into those words
59:07
and into those ideas that we hold so
59:09
closely
59:10
then then our ideas of god get in the
59:13
way and i think
59:14
it's actually a mercy of god
59:18
that we go through very dry times you
59:20
know because it's sort of hitting me set
59:22
a little bit that's why i look at it i
59:24
don't say that lightly because it's not
59:25
fun
59:26
you know it's it's very difficult you
59:27
know so
59:29
welcome to faith you know so yeah i
59:33
it feels like an obligatory question to
59:34
ask like where to find you but i feel
59:36
like if someone's listening to a podcast
59:38
they already know how to operate on the
59:39
internet so they know where to find pete
59:41
ends his books right and all the stuff
59:42
but
59:43
where can people find you pete we got to
59:44
ask well we have the bible for
59:47
normalpeople.com
59:49
which is our webs so
59:52
i told you you can find it with
59:52
petence.com as well but everything's
59:54
there you know we have like
59:55
classes we offer you know the books like
59:57
speaking stuff and the podcast you can
59:59
get there too
60:00
that's really it you know i mean i'm on
60:02
facebook and
60:03
also um twitter and instagram
60:08
because then i have a cat who's pretty
60:09
much the star of instagram right now but
60:11
anyway
60:12
uh who's not here she's always in my
60:15
face with her butt
60:16
right in my face because i'm doing these
60:17
things because she senses it so
60:19
anyway but one more thing if i can add
60:21
this this is very important
60:23
um it's been bugging me for like the
60:25
past half hour but now i get it
60:27
kyle i have something to say to you
60:30
um you look like paul mccartney in the
60:33
abbey road not the abbey road but more
60:36
you're more um let it be yeah yeah let
60:39
it be that's sort of where i was gonna
60:40
say maybe
60:41
maybe a little white album-ish too but
60:43
kudos to you
60:44
but i'm i'm googling as we speak you
60:47
need the lazy eye
60:48
a little bit but uh i'll work on that if
60:50
you play bass or piano or anything
60:52
because that'd be really guitar piano
60:54
yeah
60:54
are you left-handed no no well
60:58
maybe you were anyway so anyway that's a
61:01
compliment by the way
61:03
but i appreciate it okay good
61:07
excellent that's the most important
61:08
thing that happened today for me i just
61:09
i still feel like absolutely
61:12
what you're gonna that's how you're
61:13
gonna think of us now i know i will
61:16
well thank you so much for your time so
61:19
wonderful to talk to you
61:20
really excited about what you have next
61:22
on the bible for normal people but
61:23
you're going to write next
61:24
we're fans i appreciate that it's good
61:27
to be here guys
61:40
[Music]