What does it mean to be "saved"? We talk with Megan Westra about her book Born Again and Again, which offers a compelling reframing of the typical white American evangelical concept of salvation. We touch on everything from the role of racism in how churches present this concept, to her experience growing up as a southern fundamentalist, to the importance of dialogue with people who disagree, to financial stewardship, and more. It's a rich conversation.
The books Megan mentions are Religious Resistance to Neoliberalism: Womanist and Black Feminist Perspectives by Keri Day and After Whiteness: An Education in Belonging by Willie Jennings.
The beer featured in this episode is Shelter in Case by 1840 Brewing Company.
=====
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Cheers!
What does it mean to be "saved"? We talk with Megan Westra about her book Born Again and Again, which offers a compelling reframing of the typical white American evangelical concept of salvation. We touch on everything from the role of racism in how churches present this concept, to her experience growing up as a southern fundamentalist, to the importance of dialogue with people who disagree, to financial stewardship, and more. It's a rich conversation.
The books Megan mentions are Religious Resistance to Neoliberalism: Womanist and Black Feminist Perspectives by Keri Day and After Whiteness: An Education in Belonging by Willie Jennings.
The beer featured in this episode is Shelter in Case by 1840 Brewing Company.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
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00:11
a pastor and a philosopher now here's
00:13
the episode
00:20
so now on this podcast we talk a lot
00:22
about
00:23
evangelicalism we talk a lot about white
00:25
protestantism and the
00:27
the lack therein and today is going to
00:30
be another one of those and as i was
00:32
reflecting
00:33
i think you just can't talk about that
00:36
enough
00:36
and you can't unfold and unflesh that
00:39
enough this is
00:41
where people like us are in the midst of
00:43
a transformation
00:45
where we are recognizing that the faith
00:47
we've been given
00:49
doesn't hold its weight as much as we
00:50
had hoped and so we're in the
00:52
course right now we're in on this
00:54
journey of unpacking
00:56
and unlearning and taking things away
00:59
in a way that actually can build
01:01
something on top of a strong
01:03
good appropriate foundation and so today
01:06
we have
01:07
a person i call a friend who wrote a
01:09
book called born again and again her
01:11
name is megan k
01:12
westra and this book is one of those
01:14
must reads i think it's a book
01:16
about salvation but not in the way you
01:19
think it might be
01:20
she looks at salvation in a deeper more
01:22
profound more rich
01:24
complex and relationally rooted way than
01:27
you might imagine so
01:28
i'm excited for it and uh before we
01:32
before we do that what do we what treat
01:34
do you have for us here today kyle
01:35
so i'm so excited we are recording this
01:39
in person for the first time in i don't
01:41
know how many months last summer
01:43
i think was the last time too many
01:44
cheers so cheers here we are
01:47
and that's an actual clink
01:48
[Laughter]
01:51
um so because of that i've been sitting
01:53
on all this beer that i can't drink by
01:54
myself because it all comes in bomber
01:56
sizes
01:57
and i've been saving a bunch of stuff
01:58
for the podcast so
02:00
first time we're back to beer in a long
02:02
time so what i've got for us here is
02:03
something called shelter in case which i
02:05
think is hilarious
02:07
yeah yeah put it out during the pandemic
02:09
so this was bottled
02:10
in march of last year march 18th uh and
02:13
this is from 1840 brewing company
02:15
in milwaukee they're down in bayview one
02:18
of the best breweries
02:19
in the area in the state in my opinion
02:21
their motto is drink slow beer
02:23
they do a lot of uh traditional styles
02:26
and barrel age stuff so this is
02:28
a wine barrel aged saison
02:32
naturally fermented i believe and bottle
02:35
conditioned as well and it's been
02:36
sitting in my beer fridge
02:38
for like a year so um let's see what you
02:41
think about this i think it aged
02:42
beautifully
02:43
yeah i mean you a saison when i when i
02:46
think of a good saison
02:48
it makes my mouth water and when you the
02:50
instant you opened that bottle
02:52
and the steam rose up my mouth started
02:55
watering watering just smelling it yeah
02:57
i love it this is my favorite style
02:58
it's almost impossible for me to pick a
03:00
beer style but this is it
03:02
i think the best beer comes with corks
03:04
in it
03:06
that's just fantastic the flavors you
03:09
get in the barrel age stays on are just
03:10
far more complex
03:12
than anything else the yeast does some
03:13
amazing stuff in there
03:15
turns out being corked in a bottle since
03:18
uh march of 2020
03:20
do you well makes me yeah i wish i could
03:23
head out in a bottle that one
03:25
sounds like our culture it's so aromatic
03:29
oh man it's got such major
03:32
tartness in ways that like it reminds
03:35
you of eating that great tart berries
03:37
that's a great tart fruit
03:38
yeah that just like you you love it but
03:40
it almost feels like punishment at the
03:42
same time it's like
03:43
it's like makes your mouth water but
03:44
then it dries out you know what i mean
03:47
yeah it does have a drying finish but i
03:48
don't mind it at all no but i mean a
03:50
saison is like a pleasant summer
03:52
beer that also punches you in the mouth
03:54
at the same time
03:56
these are very unscientific
04:00
grapefruit multiplied by grapefruit yeah
04:02
but but the dry
04:04
finish i wonder if that's from the
04:05
because it's asian wine barrels
04:07
it it finishes like a wine yeah
04:10
chardonnay
04:12
yeah it doesn't say what kind of wine
04:13
they used unfortunately but
04:15
it definitely has a similar you have to
04:16
be a white wine right no i don't
04:19
imagine yeah this is the kind of beer
04:20
that i really enjoy i would enjoy it
04:22
more on
04:22
like a warm summer day but i can't enjoy
04:24
more than like a
04:26
a four ounce pour so if we drink it like
04:27
three days ago this would have been
04:28
perfect
04:29
yeah yeah yeah it's very good i should
04:32
explain we had a heat wave three days
04:33
ago
04:33
yeah it's back back to 50 the normal 50s
04:36
that it stays for eight months out of
04:37
the year
04:38
yeah well it's fun it's great yeah i
04:41
love it well done 1840 if you want to
04:43
send me more bottles i will be happy to
04:45
rate you
04:46
cheers to beer cheers
04:47
[Music]
04:49
well welcome everyone to a pastor and a
04:52
philosopher welcome to a bar
04:54
uh we're joined today by megan westra
04:57
who has spent her time doing a lot of
05:00
different things she was a pastor for a
05:01
long time
05:02
uh she's uh what would you consider
05:05
yourself now what's your role now um
05:07
i'm a hospice chaplain by profession and
05:11
i guess like itinerant writer
05:15
of sorts yeah
05:18
and and she's here to discuss with us
05:19
her book published last year
05:22
which has a title that i love born again
05:24
and again i immediately fell in love
05:25
with the book when i saw the title
05:26
because i had that exact experience
05:29
as as a nine-year-old so i know exactly
05:32
what you're talking about there
05:33
uh and this book covers a lot of
05:35
different things so uh this should be a
05:37
really fun chat
05:38
yeah megan i wonder with the title of
05:40
the book have you gotten any emails from
05:42
angry people who feel baited and
05:43
switched
05:44
they bought it because they thought it
05:45
was going to be this fundamentalist born
05:47
again book
05:48
and then it wasn't uh you know i have
05:51
gotten
05:52
zero angry emails which honestly
05:54
surprised me with some of the content in
05:56
this book and the fact that i'm
05:58
a woman trying to do anything in
06:00
christian spaces
06:01
uh but i haven't really gotten any any
06:05
bad email which maybe just means that i
06:07
have isolated myself from all the
06:09
fundamentalists enough that they aren't
06:11
even
06:11
checking up on my work anymore but uh
06:14
i'm
06:14
either way i'm grateful that they're
06:16
just not angry email good
06:18
good so far listeners megan who don't
06:20
know about your book or may not have
06:21
read it
06:22
born again and again can you just tell
06:24
us your background because you're really
06:26
personal in your book and you get really
06:27
down to
06:28
go through a lot of your history in the
06:30
church and in your family in the south
06:32
can you just bring us through and bring
06:33
our listeners into that world a little
06:35
bit
06:35
sure so i often will tell people that i
06:38
am like the stereotype if you want to
06:41
think of a
06:42
southern white evangelical especially
06:46
coming out of the trump era
06:48
i check all those boxes i grew up
06:51
primarily in the southern baptist church
06:54
i attended a baptist college
06:58
i was homeschooled for the entirety of
07:01
my
07:02
elementary middle and high school
07:03
education i
07:05
literally grew up down a holler and
07:06
across a creek uh you know all these
07:09
things that like if you just want to
07:11
create a little stereotype in your head
07:13
i i check all those boxes and so
07:16
what i do in the book is i kind of take
07:20
people through not just hearing my
07:22
thoughts about
07:23
life in the world in theology and god
07:25
and things like that but also kind of
07:26
how did i come to thinking
07:27
about things in that way because one of
07:29
the things i've noticed over the years
07:31
because i'm not still a southern baptist
07:34
living down a holler
07:36
and homeschooling myself or my child
07:39
i do none of those things uh and so
07:43
one of the questions i've been asked
07:44
over the years is like how did you get
07:46
here
07:46
because i don't make a lot of sense on
07:48
paper um you don't meet a lot of
07:50
former fundamentalists southern baptist
07:53
women
07:54
who became pastors um and
07:57
pastors in the in the city for for
08:00
that matter and so i i
08:03
have gotten a lot of questions over the
08:04
years like how did that happen
08:06
like no offense but how did that happen
08:09
and so i try to kind of trace that
08:12
not just to answer curious minds but
08:15
also because i think there are a lot of
08:16
people in that space
08:18
and increasingly more from the time when
08:21
i started writing the book to the time
08:22
that it
08:23
released and now people who are starting
08:26
to look
08:27
at their faith tradition the way that
08:29
they've always kind of thought about
08:31
things and it doesn't make it sense
08:32
anymore and so i really wanted to give
08:35
people
08:36
like the hand holds and footholds like
08:37
when you're rock climbing
08:39
not to get all the way to the top but
08:41
something to push off of and to
08:43
to keep to keep going to keep going
08:46
because i think often when we start
08:48
questioning things it's we get stuck
08:50
really easily
08:52
yep yeah i think so many uh
08:55
listeners who read this book are going
08:57
to resonate so deeply with your story i
08:58
mean whether you're from the south or
09:00
not
09:00
i think it's probably a little
09:01
exaggerated when you are from the south
09:02
and up the creek and down the hall or
09:04
whatever volume up a little
09:06
right right um but that story is such
09:10
a consistent and emerging story
09:13
of being born and raised and rooted in a
09:17
strong evangelical church and just
09:21
it didn't hold up and in your case the
09:24
beautiful thing is you didn't give up on
09:25
it
09:26
you could have instead you kind of
09:28
doubled down
09:29
and lived into it in an extreme way that
09:32
was really beautifully detailed in the
09:34
book yeah
09:36
i mean one of the biggest character
09:38
traits of my entire life which didn't
09:40
square very well with being like the
09:42
gentle quiet woman
09:43
that i was supposed to be in evangelical
09:45
circles was i'm
09:46
really stubborn um and so it kind of
09:49
became
09:50
this like i i can't let this go like i
09:53
have no choice but to double down and
09:54
figure this out and it's either going to
09:56
be all or nothing
09:58
and i have to figure it out yeah
10:01
so in chapter one megan let me just jump
10:03
right into it um i'm looking at the book
10:05
right now born again and again and then
10:07
it's
10:07
got saved save save so there's obviously
10:10
your graphic designer was trying to do
10:12
something with the theme and salvation
10:14
is all over it
10:15
um particularly as you get get right
10:17
into it and i
10:19
you got me in chapter one when you talk
10:22
about how you grow up thinking
10:23
salvation is about how it's all about
10:26
basically saving people from hell and
10:27
making sure that within six weeks or
10:29
less
10:29
you get them to have that fire insurance
10:32
basically and that's basically all the
10:33
whole thing is about
10:35
to now you say you describe salvation as
10:38
and i'm quoting you as a people to which
10:40
i belong and a practice to which i
10:43
submit
10:44
salvation is a people to which i belong
10:46
in a practice to which i submit now
10:48
i don't know if many soteriologists
10:51
would you know
10:52
uh i think actually there's probably
10:54
plenty of certain urologists who would
10:55
say that actually gets
10:56
to the point of it more than this thing
10:58
that we've created to be in the church
11:00
but
11:00
we don't think about salvation as a
11:03
people to which we belong in a practice
11:05
in a way to which we submit
11:07
describe in more words this new way of
11:09
what you're seeing
11:10
salvation being and how you got there
11:13
yeah so this really started to come
11:15
together for me
11:16
when i went back to seminary um i had
11:19
been in ministry for
11:21
gosh like seven years before i went to
11:23
seminary which i like highly encouraged
11:24
like
11:25
because then you kind of know as you're
11:27
in all these lectures you're like oh
11:29
that doesn't work
11:30
that's not gonna fly uh and also like oh
11:32
that's what good news sounds like
11:34
right because you're you're having to
11:36
put it into practice in real time and
11:37
when we were going through
11:39
uh soteriology in my theology classes
11:43
i was so struck and i'm like reading
11:45
these textbooks you know i'm reading
11:47
i'm reading torrents and i'm reading a
11:50
lot of the things i drew on from the
11:51
book was from
11:52
john sabrina who's a catholic theologian
11:55
and i'm reading
11:56
all these different things and then like
11:57
weeping into these theology textbooks
11:59
because i'm like oh my gosh it's just so
12:01
beautiful and this this is good news
12:03
that's actually good news
12:06
and as we're discussing it in my classes
12:09
with my classmates
12:11
so many of them are coming to the same
12:13
conclusions that i am just like
12:15
people in our congregations don't know
12:16
this they don't know that this is what
12:19
salvation can be and
12:20
and kind of to what you were just saying
12:22
randy like it's not
12:24
the way that most of us would think of
12:25
salvation as a as a people and as a
12:28
practice
12:28
and so i think the more that we can get
12:32
past this idea of like check backs jesus
12:35
the better um you know really we have
12:38
had that
12:39
understanding of salvation for a very
12:41
short amount of time in the
12:43
large scope of christian history and so
12:46
the idea that that would become
12:48
not just the predominant view but like
12:50
the only way to think
12:52
about it for so many people is just
12:54
asinine and really
12:55
arrogant um that we would ignore the
12:58
entire scope of christian history and
13:00
theology
13:01
and say like well this is this is it
13:03
billy graham fixed it
13:05
he arrived and like that's what
13:08
salvation means now
13:09
and so i i think that expanding it
13:13
right not diminishing it right that it's
13:15
salvation
13:16
is it is a choice it is a thing that we
13:18
that we opt into
13:20
and i talk in the book about how it's
13:22
kind of like you know when your friend
13:23
comes and knocks on the door
13:25
not when kovit is happening ben says
13:27
like hey will you come play outside and
13:28
you like
13:29
you have to say like come in right like
13:32
i grew up in the era of like come home
13:34
when the
13:34
when the street lights come on or we
13:36
didn't have street lights down the hall
13:37
or so it was like come in when the sun
13:38
goes down
13:39
uh but you had you you opt into that you
13:42
have to run out the door
13:44
um but i think so often we think about
13:46
salvation is like well i ran out the
13:48
door
13:49
and now i'm just sitting here on my
13:50
porch steps
13:52
i made it and it's like no
13:55
you're missing everything um
13:59
and so for me that has looked like
14:03
constantly being almost in process of
14:05
like every
14:07
day how am i learning to love god and my
14:10
neighbor
14:10
and myself more and more holistically
14:16
every day how am i being invited into
14:18
that
14:19
that cycle of death and resurrection to
14:22
different
14:22
parts of myself or to systems that i
14:25
participate in
14:27
my own imagination of what's possible
14:30
and it's much more complicated than
14:33
answering if i've checked a box or not
14:34
but it's also so much more beautiful
14:37
and and good that picture
14:40
of being invited in stepping into the
14:42
foyer and then living your life there
14:44
it's so barren it's so so uh
14:47
wasted and that's such a such a
14:50
brilliant picture for thinking about
14:52
our salvation and being what it means to
14:54
be saved what it means to
14:57
live into this faith that we're born
15:00
into
15:01
i love it i love that and the way you
15:03
flesh that out in the book is really
15:04
really brilliant that belonging to a
15:06
people in particular
15:07
that you open yourself up to is
15:09
something that's so lost in the church i
15:11
want to talk about that more but kyle i
15:12
think you have a question
15:14
yeah so you draw attention several
15:16
points in the book to
15:18
what i think you identify as the main
15:20
problem with
15:21
the sort of billy graham evangelical
15:23
view of salvation right
15:25
and you label it consumerism and then
15:27
you talk about it in a lot from a lot of
15:28
different angles
15:30
and you contrast consumerism with the
15:32
better thing which is
15:33
connection so can you flesh that out a
15:35
little bit for us what do you mean by
15:37
those
15:37
two terms why do you think that's the
15:39
way that we should think about
15:41
what salvation could be yeah so i first
15:43
came across this framework when i was
15:45
reading a book by dr carrie day
15:47
who's a womanist scholar the book is
15:50
religious resistance to neoliberalism
15:52
very good very dense uh and and she
15:56
starts to pull this this thread too of
15:58
saying like okay
15:59
but the the consumer aspect of culture
16:02
the the way that we have learned that we
16:04
are fundamentally
16:05
uh at the end of the day and first and
16:07
foremost we are consumers
16:09
right like that my life is i'm a
16:11
consumer
16:12
um and you exist only in terms of what i
16:16
can get from you
16:17
um so we have to reimagine that
16:21
we have to remake that within ourselves
16:23
if we're going to move into
16:25
a way of thinking that i i think is
16:28
more based in like the the kingdom of
16:30
god and what jesus is calling us to
16:34
but the church has done a lot to just
16:35
reinforce that kind of thinking
16:37
uh graham certainly wasn't the first one
16:39
to start that but he made it real
16:41
popular
16:42
uh and so this idea that like even the
16:44
language we use right that
16:46
oh have you gotten saved like are you
16:48
did you get saved
16:50
like it's something that we can go to
16:51
the store and then put on our shelf and
16:53
many of us treat our salvation
16:55
as though that's what it is it's a
16:56
trinket that we talk up there and people
16:59
notice it when they come over and they
17:00
say oh tell me about that thing and
17:02
we're like
17:03
well let me tell you that story but it
17:06
doesn't
17:07
move us in any meaningful way you know
17:10
you can see really clear examples of
17:11
this
17:12
particularly when you look at the way
17:15
that
17:15
gender has been played out in the church
17:18
the ways that
17:19
particularly like women and children are
17:22
treated almost as if they are consumer
17:23
goods
17:24
um to prop up the biblical men
17:28
in their lives but we've done that with
17:30
so many things we do it with where we
17:32
attend church
17:33
as christians you know how many times
17:36
have pastors
17:38
heard like well i'm just not being fed
17:41
i'm just not
17:41
getting what i need here and there is
17:44
room for valid critique of
17:46
like what a church is doing that's
17:48
usually not one of them
17:49
and and so to say like because i am not
17:53
feeling good right because i am not
17:56
feeling as though my consumer needs are
17:58
met my
17:59
dopamine response isn't being triggered
18:01
in this moment
18:03
then clearly this is not where god wants
18:05
me does not square with scripture
18:08
at all not to go like biblical
18:10
literalist on us
18:12
but that doesn't square with scripture
18:14
at all
18:15
and so this idea that like god exists
18:18
and salvation exists
18:20
and the other people who are claiming to
18:23
follow christ exist for the purpose of
18:26
me feeling good about myself
18:29
is the subtext of a lot of our
18:31
interactions within the church
18:33
and in a lot of christian circles we
18:34
would never explicitly say that
18:36
but if you look at like where are their
18:38
fissures in relationship
18:40
what are the things that are informing
18:42
the choices for what we do and don't do
18:44
that's humming underneath the surface of
18:46
a lot of things we
18:47
like you alluded to megan i mean we in
18:49
the church are
18:51
by and large responsible for it and but
18:52
by we in the church i mean we church
18:54
leaders
18:54
are by and large responsible for that
18:56
consumeristic culture that we have
18:58
particularly in the white american
18:59
church white american evangelical church
19:03
and it's like i don't think i know many
19:06
pastors
19:07
i know some but i don't know many
19:09
pastors who really love that dynamic
19:11
who thinks it who think it's healthy but
19:14
they know that that's what they've
19:15
created
19:16
and that's how they pay the bills that's
19:18
how they pay the mortgage
19:19
that's how they keep a salary and that's
19:21
how they feel validated to be honest
19:23
with you is butts in the seats right and
19:25
so we just
19:25
keep going around in this hamster wheel
19:28
even though we mostly know
19:30
it's just not right and we'd rather have
19:33
something more biblical it's kind of the
19:34
monster we've created
19:35
it's it's a huge huge bummer
19:39
and i'm wondering what it's going to
19:42
take for that to kind of
19:44
for that for that model to break because
19:46
it's breaking as we speak right
19:49
what are your thoughts on that megan uh
19:52
i mean i feel like i could pontificate
19:53
on that all day long especially since i
19:55
don't leave a church anymore
19:56
so i have clearly all the answers now
19:59
kind of like
19:59
when you don't have kids yet and you're
20:01
like well this is how you parent
20:03
um so i i think that
20:07
one of the challenges is that we need to
20:10
redefine what leadership
20:12
is and we need to find ways of
20:14
quantifying
20:15
good leadership in ways that aren't tied
20:17
to finances or butts in the seats um
20:20
that sometimes good leadership looks
20:22
like standing up and saying this is
20:23
breaking as we speak so you know what
20:25
we're gonna
20:25
we're just gonna smash it right now and
20:28
then i'm gonna walk you through
20:30
what it looks like to pick up the pieces
20:32
that we're gonna preserve
20:34
you know what we're going to do right
20:36
here is we're going to break this
20:38
and then we're going to look really
20:40
closely at all the shards of glass and
20:42
see which ones we can meld together to
20:44
make a new window
20:46
with you know beautiful you know art in
20:48
it that will you know just
20:50
all the things right and so i think that
20:52
you need that
20:53
but again there's this aspect of like
20:55
the monster we've created and if you're
20:57
in a denominational system then you're
20:59
being accountable further up
21:01
to people who are saying no you can't
21:03
break that like we need all of these
21:04
metrics from you
21:06
um and if you're not then uh then that
21:09
comes with its own sense of precarity
21:12
but i think that that there is a
21:14
responsibility for people who are
21:16
leading the church to tell the truth
21:18
and that right now particularly right
21:21
now
21:22
we see so clearly what happens when
21:24
leaders
21:26
massage the edges of truth
21:29
and that it really is one of the most
21:32
revolutionary acts to
21:33
just tell the truth and to stay with
21:37
people through it
21:38
yep it's good i feel like when people
21:42
start
21:43
taking part or coming to our church i
21:45
can tell the ones who are going to stick
21:47
and the ones who aren't and the ones who
21:49
aren't are usually the ones who use
21:50
the consumeristic words to tell you why
21:53
they're here you know i love the
21:55
preaching oh
21:56
it's so good i'm like okay the worship's
21:59
amazing
22:00
love it ah makes my heart sing i know
22:03
that's not gonna last
22:04
right the ones who last usually are the
22:06
ones who are like man
22:07
this feels like family wow i've never
22:10
felt like
22:11
known in a church so those are the ones
22:14
that are going to stick the ones who
22:15
stay because of the preaching or the
22:17
worship they're going to wind up being
22:18
disappointed in two years when my
22:19
preaching style changes or
22:21
you know our worship leader gets onto a
22:23
different group of songs that may or may
22:26
not like it's amazing how predictable it
22:29
is isn't it
22:29
um yep yep
22:33
so in chapter two of your book megan you
22:36
use this term that i was talking with my
22:37
wife about i loved it
22:39
and it's so simple i wish i have i i
22:42
wish i could
22:43
stake claim to that and say that i
22:44
created it but this idea of selective
22:47
liberation that you say
22:48
pretty much you start in chapter two and
22:49
then you go throughout the book
22:51
talking about how we in the church i
22:53
mean really it's
22:54
americans but let's just talk about the
22:56
church here the white american
22:58
evangelical church
22:59
um this idea of selective liberation
23:02
that we think that we're all about
23:04
salvation
23:05
and freedom and liberation for all
23:07
people who would say no to that
23:08
right the reality is is that that's just
23:11
not the way it plays out and that's not
23:12
what we fight for as a people that's not
23:14
what we stand for
23:16
and when you do talk about full and
23:18
total and complete liberation for all
23:20
people
23:20
that gets pretty rough i mean we just
23:22
had a summer where we saw what happens
23:24
when you actually advocate for that so
23:26
can you take us into this this
23:29
really this idea that you created with
23:31
this selective liberation concept
23:33
yeah well i i first have to acknowledge
23:36
that that is a concept
23:37
that i don't know if the exact term
23:39
comes through but probably at some point
23:41
but definitely the concept comes from a
23:42
lot of womanist theologians
23:44
which are black women who are doing
23:47
theology
23:48
uh and so this idea that like none of us
23:51
are free until all of us are free
23:53
uh which i think is audrey lord um who
23:55
is not a theologian but
23:57
is is worthwhile to read in her own we
23:59
can dispute that
24:00
i mean i'm okay putting her there i
24:02
don't know if she's okay putting herself
24:04
there i want her
24:05
she might not want it right um
24:08
but this idea that like the you know
24:10
whether it's
24:11
you know lords or whether it's uh if
24:14
we're going to look at martin luther
24:15
king jr and
24:16
letter from a birmingham jail where he
24:17
talks about all of us being part of a
24:18
seamless garment like
24:19
knitted together right and so uh
24:22
selective liberation
24:24
looks like me growing up as a white
24:27
woman coming into my own in my early 20s
24:31
and realizing like oh my gosh
24:32
like women are oppressed
24:36
this needs to stop and if i had only
24:39
focused on that and when i was only
24:41
focusing on that
24:42
it got kind of toxic and kind of shitty
24:45
i don't know if i can cuss on your
24:46
podcast or not
24:47
occasionally it's happened from time to
24:49
time cool i will try
24:51
to continue to not use those words but
24:53
sometimes it slips
24:54
um sometimes they're the best words and
24:56
content
24:58
just enough to not get us the e so many
25:01
freedom movements you can look at the
25:02
early suffragists who
25:04
were looking for the right for women to
25:06
vote and they neglected
25:07
the black and latinx and native women
25:11
among them bad things happen when we
25:14
only look for our own freedom um
25:17
you know you could argue that the
25:19
insurrection at the capitol was a group
25:20
of people looking for their own freedom
25:23
at the cost of ignoring
25:26
everybody else and so i think in the
25:29
church we have done that
25:30
looking at spiritual freedom and like a
25:33
purely spiritual
25:34
faith which that concept emerged like
25:37
during the reconstruction when all these
25:39
people were trying to like
25:40
form theologies that allowed them to
25:42
still oppress formerly enslaved people
25:44
so that's real fun
25:45
we shouldn't really talk about purely
25:46
spiritual faith with any sort of like
25:48
moral authority because that's just not
25:50
the roots of it
25:51
um and so to say that our our faith only
25:54
speaks to a spiritual liberation and
25:56
only for people like me
25:58
just leads us down some really dangerous
25:59
paths because that's not
26:01
how jesus operates that's not how the
26:03
holy spirit operates
26:05
um and if we look at you know even
26:08
like political histories or social
26:10
movements
26:12
it doesn't lead to good places there
26:13
either
26:15
yeah i loved how you um i think it's
26:18
chapter three
26:19
connection over consumption um detailed
26:22
how
26:23
white our religious world is
26:26
particularly as just white protestants
26:29
let's say
26:29
let's just say that uh
26:32
we're i'm completely unaware of how i've
26:35
been programmed
26:36
to live in a white religion that's been
26:38
programmed by white people that's been
26:41
given to white people that's been made
26:42
for white people and then i wonder
26:44
why my church isn't diverse right or why
26:47
why
26:48
i can't understand the way some black
26:51
people worship
26:52
or let that next people worship or lgbtq
26:55
people
26:55
fill in the blank that was so fun to
26:58
have that
26:59
that fleece pulled back and realized
27:02
this is really white
27:04
right here what we're dealing with and
27:05
we we transpose that onto the scriptures
27:07
and we transpose that onto
27:09
god god him or herself and
27:13
it's amazing how limited we are in under
27:17
understanding
27:18
because of our cultural experience it's
27:19
not our fault really i mean
27:21
when it's our fault is when we actually
27:23
say no that's not the case this is the
27:24
way things really are right but what
27:25
what ex
27:26
what pulled back the fleece for you
27:27
megan and seeing how just how white
27:29
of a religious world you grew up in uh
27:32
in the book i talked through one of
27:35
those watershed moments for me because
27:37
it was many
27:37
right just like uh just like salvation i
27:40
think that this realization
27:42
uh of one's own
27:46
social location and the space that you
27:48
occupy in the world
27:50
especially if you're coming from a
27:51
majority or dominant culture
27:54
it's a series of events that unfold over
27:57
time but one of them that i talk about
27:59
in the book
28:00
is watching president obama's
28:02
inauguration
28:04
in 2008 and i was still
28:08
very much like a card-carrying
28:11
evangelical republican at that point i
28:14
was working
28:15
at an after school program and the
28:17
majority of the
28:18
staff and the majority of the students
28:21
were african-american
28:22
and we watched the a replay of the
28:25
inauguration that day
28:27
while the kids were after school and i
28:29
was annoyed like i'm just gonna like own
28:31
the space i was in at that time i
28:32
thought it was a terrible idea i was
28:34
like these kids
28:35
are not gonna sit there and watch this
28:37
big ceremony like
28:39
this is such a bad idea i worked with a
28:42
first grade class that year and i was
28:44
like this is gonna be terrible and have
28:45
seven year olds
28:46
just losing their minds for however long
28:48
this takes
28:49
and i was wrong
28:53
and we sat in the auditorium and my
28:56
students and my co-workers were crying
28:59
and cheering and it was
29:02
this moment where i realized for the
29:05
first time
29:07
i think that's part of the way we can
29:08
kind of gauge our privileges like when
29:10
was the first time you realized that
29:11
something was going on that you weren't
29:12
an insider on
29:14
and for me i was 20. and
29:18
i realized like something is happening
29:20
and i don't know what it is
29:23
and that was kind of the first moment
29:24
where i started to to kind of dig i had
29:26
a theology professor that same year who
29:28
had me read james cohn
29:29
at my baptist college god bless that man
29:32
and
29:33
um so then it was just a series of
29:35
things after that you know when we moved
29:36
to milwaukee
29:38
the whole time that i've lived here i've
29:39
lived in predominantly black
29:40
neighborhoods
29:41
that has revealed more uh in my life
29:45
than many many things just living among
29:48
people and living in a neighborhood
29:50
where my neighbors don't look like me
29:52
and don't have the same life experiences
29:54
that i have
29:55
that when a police officer pulls them
29:57
over in our neighborhood do not have the
29:59
same interaction with that officer that
30:00
i do
30:01
um and so it's been a series of
30:04
unlearning
30:05
i talk in the book too about unlearning
30:07
and returning
30:09
and i'm still in that process of
30:12
of realizing what i'm missing
30:17
and what are my assumptions about the
30:18
world and
30:20
what am i imposing unto god and my
30:23
neighbor and myself
30:24
that isn't rooted in who god has created
30:28
us all to be
30:29
[Music]
30:32
so good if we could spend a lot of time
30:34
there also in chapter two you're
30:35
speaking of being connected to
30:37
to people being connected to people as
30:39
family being connected to people and
30:41
learning from one another and you talk
30:43
about the disciples as a model
30:45
which you're not the first to do but
30:47
it's um striking
30:48
in this time space moment we find
30:50
ourselves in right now right where
30:52
you articulate how jesus has politically
30:55
opposite
30:56
folks as part of his disciples as part
30:58
of his innermost
31:00
circle a zealot who's a complete liberal
31:03
and a tax collector who's a complete con
31:06
ultra conservative and they're still
31:08
following jesus and you say how that
31:10
must have been
31:11
some fascinating dinner conversation
31:13
right totally agree with you i wish i
31:15
would have was a fly on the wall
31:17
but that kind of runs against something
31:20
that we're starting to hear in our
31:21
culture and i even remember hearing
31:22
reading on twitter you posted on
31:24
election day this past
31:25
you know a couple months ago about how
31:28
basically
31:29
there are some people that we disagree
31:30
with that there are our values are so
31:33
off-center with one another that it
31:35
might be actually better to part ways
31:37
with that person that might be the best
31:39
choice
31:40
i understand that fully and i think
31:41
especially for oppressed people that's
31:43
that's that's the reality and
31:45
that's wisdom but it's also hard for me
31:48
to differentiate between
31:50
living in an echo chamber where i
31:52
surround myself with myself with people
31:54
that i just
31:55
agree with and who agree with me because
31:57
that's more and more of what we're
31:58
seeing
31:58
rather than saying even if you disagree
32:01
with me on something that i hold
32:02
really important i'm still going to hold
32:04
space with you and listen to you and
32:05
love you
32:07
how do you how do you hold all of that
32:09
intention megan
32:10
yeah i think that you're your note that
32:14
particularly for oppressed people this
32:17
is something that you need to do right
32:19
when i wrote my book i was writing for
32:21
people
32:22
coming from the same space i did so
32:24
white evangelicals or maybe i'm not
32:27
evangelical anymore i don't really know
32:30
you know people coming from that space
32:32
and so
32:33
i i will answer from that space too
32:36
that for people who are white
32:39
for people who are in dominant culture
32:41
for people who are
32:43
in majority culture however we want to
32:44
phrase that
32:46
there is both a responsibility to be
32:50
like the the landing place for folks
32:53
but in our responsibility to continue to
32:57
hold space for people
32:59
uh we need to continue to occupy the
33:02
space that we hold too
33:03
and i think that sometimes when we are
33:06
holding space for people when i have
33:08
held space for people i have disagreed
33:09
with
33:10
and maybe part of this is just that i
33:12
you know grew up in the south and
33:13
there's a whole lot of just like
33:15
southern nicety
33:16
uh but midwesterners are bad at this too
33:18
though of just
33:19
kind of shoving what you disagree with
33:22
down
33:23
and if somebody's saying something that
33:24
you disagree with you're like
33:27
okay and that's not holding space
33:30
that's not bringing both the zealot and
33:34
the tax collector to the table that
33:37
is the zealot going off and the tax
33:40
collector just like
33:41
biting the inside of his cheek until it
33:43
bleeds and
33:44
that's not relationship and that's not
33:46
coming together and so
33:48
i think that if we are truly going to
33:51
hold more space for one another
33:53
we're gonna have a lot more conflict in
33:55
our relationships but that that's not a
33:57
bad
33:57
thing that when we are in conflict when
34:00
it with one another
34:01
i'm angry at you and you know it it's
34:04
because i trust you enough
34:06
to like trust you with that big emotion
34:07
that i'm feeling
34:09
what we have a problem with is
34:12
indifference
34:13
and choosing to coexist alongside people
34:16
that we are indifferent to
34:17
and then retreat back to our own echo
34:19
chambers and then come together with
34:21
people that we are indifferent with
34:23
and that's what i want us to try to
34:24
avoid the other thing i will say on this
34:26
that like
34:27
has gotten really complicated in the
34:29
last year is i think there's a lot of
34:31
space
34:32
to disagree on how we go about fixing
34:34
problems
34:35
or how we go about navigating things we
34:37
disagree about
34:38
as far as like you know should uh
34:42
teachers or grocery store workers get
34:44
vaccinated first
34:46
you know should uh should we have
34:49
spaghetti or pizza for dinner right
34:51
things like that uh if we are
34:54
disagreeing on things that are
34:56
observable
34:57
facts then there needs to be less space
35:00
for that
35:01
because good things don't come from that
35:04
nothing creative comes from that
35:06
no good innovative solutions come from
35:08
that because all we're doing is circling
35:10
around like is it my version of reality
35:12
or your version of reality that we're
35:14
going to try to fix
35:16
and i think that we can get really
35:20
bogged down in trying to hold space for
35:23
for people or for viewpoints that it's
35:24
just like this is just not something
35:26
that
35:26
helps us move forward in any way it
35:29
doesn't help bring flourishing or
35:31
freedom
35:31
or hope for anyone and
35:35
and i don't think that the zealots or
35:37
the tax collectors would be bringing
35:38
that to the table
35:41
so quick follow-up so when you use
35:44
phrases like hold space for someone or
35:46
occupy the space that you're in can you
35:48
flesh that out a little bit
35:49
would that be analogous to um
35:53
just continuing a dialogue or what
35:56
specifically do you envision when you
35:58
use
35:58
phrases like that i think continuing a
36:00
dialogue or continuing in relationship
36:02
um i think that it looks different for
36:05
different people
36:06
and at different points in their journey
36:08
to hold space for someone that you're in
36:10
sharp disagreement
36:12
with may look like hey we can continue
36:15
to talk
36:16
once a month with these specific
36:18
parameters
36:19
for this amount of time and that's it
36:23
you know in the conflict mediation work
36:25
that i've done
36:26
you might even agree to those parameters
36:28
ahead of time and say hey this is really
36:30
hard right now
36:31
and i'm having a difficult time staying
36:33
in relationship with you but i
36:34
want to so here's what we need to do
36:38
right and can you agree to this can we
36:40
do we both value this relationship
36:42
enough that this is what we're gonna do
36:44
um you know i think that if it's in a
36:48
bigger setting um it can just look like
36:52
digging in and asking questions instead
36:54
of
36:55
presuming judgments i went to seminary
36:57
with somebody
36:59
who reminded me a whole lot of people
37:02
that i grew up with
37:04
and that was not a good thing by the
37:05
time i got to seminary i was like oh
37:07
no not this person and
37:11
we happen to both be from the same home
37:13
state
37:14
uh west virginia which automatically
37:16
meant that they were like oh hey
37:18
let's talk and i was like no no no no no
37:20
no no i don't want to
37:22
i came here to get away and
37:25
instead of deciding that i
37:29
was just gonna like totally shut down
37:31
block this
37:32
this person off in all ways
37:35
they would make pronouncements and they
37:37
were much more conservative than i was
37:39
they would make pronouncements before or
37:41
during class
37:42
and during breaks or after class i'd be
37:44
like hey can you
37:45
can you tell me more about why you think
37:49
that solves this problem
37:50
can you explain to me more about why you
37:53
think this theology is helpful for the
37:55
church right now
37:56
and we would go back and forth and after
37:59
you know after he would share with me
38:00
then he would usually return the
38:02
question
38:02
um to be like well well how do you see
38:05
this
38:05
and that really helped cultivate
38:09
a healthy respectful dialogue again we
38:11
weren't disagreeing on like
38:13
facts um but it was
38:17
it was hey we have two different ways of
38:19
looking at how this plays out in the
38:20
church
38:22
and in the world and i
38:25
got better my ideas got better and
38:28
sharper and more nuanced and
38:32
more clear the more i talk to him and i
38:35
think the same was true for him the more
38:37
he talked with me
38:38
um and so i think that it really depends
38:41
on the situation that people are in in
38:42
the context in which they're trying to
38:44
keep showing up for other people
38:46
but that work is important and it's
38:48
worth the energy
38:50
how about that when you engage with
38:52
somebody asking honest questions
38:54
in a humble fashion wanting to genuinely
38:56
know that what they think
38:58
things tend to work out how about that
39:00
you know it's it's kind of like
39:02
uh in youth group drama camps and stuff
39:06
when you just when you're doing the
39:07
improv exercises and you say yes and
39:11
uh it's a good guide post in all of life
39:14
i get the chills when i like actually go
39:16
back to those youth group skits
39:18
like in bad chills and like like not
39:20
good no no
39:21
lots of bad chills but the improv the
39:24
yes and is the thing we can take that's
39:26
the kernel of truth that we can take
39:28
with us
39:30
the one thing one of the only things
39:32
that i've kept from my old
39:34
like street evangelism days which i
39:36
really identified with certain parts of
39:38
your book
39:38
because of that uh was the the question
39:41
why do you think
39:42
that why do you believe that tell me
39:44
more it's so productive
39:46
it's a great question yeah so
39:50
your book has several chapters in it
39:51
that i got to be honest i didn't expect
39:53
to be in it when i
39:54
looked at the cover so there's a chapter
39:58
on politics there's a chapter on racism
40:01
there's a chapter on personal finances
40:03
there's a chapter on environmentalism
40:05
there's a chapter on gender
40:08
in a book presumably about salvation
40:11
so connect those dots for for the
40:14
listeners
40:14
if if you can why did you pick those
40:16
topics to be in a book
40:18
called born again and again i was trying
40:20
to choose the
40:21
least controversial topics that i could
40:23
talk about
40:24
in the church and that just seemed like
40:26
the list
40:28
um you know i think that if our
40:30
salvation is to mean anything then it
40:32
has to have implications in our
40:34
day-to-day life
40:35
i think that if our faith has any sort
40:37
of value then it has to be embodied in
40:40
some way and so i wanted to go
40:42
through some of the most
40:45
difficult kind of sectors of life that
40:49
we navigate
40:50
and say this is what that can look like
40:55
because i think that it's easy uh for me
40:58
to write a chapter like chapter two or
41:00
chapter three and like
41:01
connection over consumption and we
41:03
should be together and
41:05
i quote moana and i'm like the people
41:07
you love will change you
41:09
and that sounds really really good and
41:10
then you actually get around people
41:12
you're like i don't want to change like
41:13
that don't change me that way
41:15
and so i looked at different topics
41:19
that either have been kind of flash
41:21
points in my own life for
41:23
you know moments where you know looking
41:25
back i can be like oh that was really
41:26
where my
41:27
theology shook loose uh race gender
41:31
um this past year you know it going back
41:34
through the environment chapter now
41:36
uh is really interesting because i have
41:39
spent so much more time outside this
41:41
past year
41:42
um and i'm like oh there's i i would
41:45
write even more on that now if i was
41:47
writing it all over again
41:49
uh money is a is a thing that always is
41:52
tripping us up and what do you do with
41:53
your money and how do you manage your
41:55
money and
41:55
everybody's in tons of debt um at least
41:58
people in my generation i'm a millennial
42:00
so
42:01
um what do we do with that and what does
42:03
faithfulness look like
42:05
um that maybe doesn't look like you know
42:07
dead is dumb and cash is king and angry
42:09
white men on the radio
42:11
um that was that was dave ramsey it was
42:13
it was yeah it was dave ramsey
42:15
[Laughter]
42:19
yeah and so i i tried to choose topics
42:22
that were like the tough case studies
42:25
right where like if we were having this
42:26
conversation in real life
42:28
that somebody would raise their hand and
42:29
say yeah but what about
42:31
i tried to kind of say like okay but
42:33
this and this
42:35
and this yeah um and you know it's not
42:37
complete like i said
42:39
i was trying to write a book that would
42:41
be like footholds on a rock wall
42:43
um but hopefully there's enough there
42:46
that people can push off into into more
42:49
questions as they come up
42:50
yep and i want to say that is such
42:54
a better way to hold and to think of
42:57
our salvation that salvation isn't a
42:59
membership card into this exclusive club
43:02
salvation isn't like you said a trophy
43:03
or trinket to put on a
43:05
on our you know on our mantle for people
43:07
to look at and for us to brag on a
43:09
little bit
43:10
salvation is messy and it's a process
43:14
and it's dirty and nitty-gritty and it's
43:17
beautiful all at the same time
43:19
and it affects all of our lives and if
43:21
it doesn't
43:22
we gotta wonder if we've got this
43:23
trinket kind of salvation that really
43:25
doesn't
43:26
doesn't account for much in our daily
43:28
lives i like that
43:32
yeah so one more question about racism
43:35
but really it could be bigger than that
43:36
we could expand it to other forms of
43:38
social stratification as well so you
43:41
talk in chapter five a little bit
43:43
about the attempt by a lot of white
43:45
churches to develop a more diverse
43:48
putting that in scare quotes for those
43:49
who can't see me diverse congregation
43:51
and it reminded me of
43:52
reading ibram kindy's book last year how
43:56
to be an anti-racist and he talks about
43:57
this too
43:58
and kind of comes down on the side
44:01
somewhat surprisingly
44:02
at the time for me on the segregation
44:06
that happens on sunday mornings is not
44:07
entirely a bad thing
44:09
and that there's actually some some
44:11
necessary healing that's allowed in
44:13
those spaces that wouldn't be allowed if
44:15
we were
44:15
forcing the reintegration uh so
44:19
what's your view of this how do we we
44:23
everybody in this conversation well at
44:25
least randy and i and elliot for sure
44:28
uh attend predominantly white churches
44:31
and spend most of our time in
44:32
predominantly white spaces
44:35
how do we approach this because we want
44:37
diversity diversity is a good thing
44:38
right uh we want to give positions of
44:42
decision-making authority to
44:44
people of color that's a good thing it
44:46
would grow all of us if we did that
44:48
and yet we're hearing from people in
44:51
those spaces that
44:53
maybe that's not what they want so
44:56
what's your take on this i think
44:57
that white people need to do their own
45:00
work first
45:01
before we try to do any sort of
45:06
diversity work we need to take a really
45:10
long hard look at ourselves and
45:13
i don't trust any white people
45:17
to do any sort of diversity work if
45:19
they're also not willing to say in the
45:21
same breath that they're racist
45:23
um i would freely acknowledge that like
45:26
i
45:27
am a racist a recovering one
45:30
but just like a addict of any sort
45:34
who's in recovery would never say like
45:36
oh i'm i'm i'm not an addict anymore
45:38
like you'd be like
45:39
maybe you need to go back to that 12
45:41
steps meeting like maybe
45:42
maybe you need to go back for a
45:44
refresher uh
45:46
whiteness is similar to
45:49
an addiction to power and an addiction
45:52
to a view of self
45:54
that is uh inflated
45:57
and diminished at the same time we both
46:01
over inflate our station in the world
46:05
and what we can and cannot do
46:08
willie jennings latest book after
46:10
whiteness talks about this summon like
46:12
the the
46:12
plantation mindset plantation pedagogy i
46:15
think is what he
46:16
calls it um but it's been a little bit
46:18
so if you read
46:20
that book and it's not that exact phrase
46:22
then my memory is a little foggy but
46:24
it's a great phrase somebody should do
46:26
this that's what
46:27
um so but this idea that like at the
46:30
same time we are
46:32
presuming we have so much mastery and
46:34
control over the world
46:37
and because that doesn't actually exist
46:40
because that is a figment of our own
46:42
imaginations and our own creation it
46:44
diminishes our humanity because we're
46:46
trying to live outside of the space that
46:47
we are actually created to be within
46:50
and so uh you know
46:54
we don't ever completely get over that
46:57
no matter how well intentioned no matter
46:59
how many books i read no matter
47:00
how many people of color who i submit to
47:04
their leadership i'm never going to be
47:05
completely over that and so i think that
47:07
white people need to do that work to
47:10
begin with
47:11
themselves and kendy's book is great
47:14
there's i mean
47:14
after this past summer there's lists all
47:16
over the internet of books people can
47:18
read
47:20
but not just reading the the books on
47:22
racial equity but also reading
47:24
fiction and reading poetry like my god
47:27
yesterday we saw this
47:28
incredible young black poet just
47:31
take us all to church and leave us
47:34
weeping at the altar
47:36
um or maybe that was just in my living
47:38
room but it was
47:39
it was very good i don't think so but
47:42
for the listen
47:42
for for in case whenever this airs she's
47:44
referring to the
47:46
uh poet laureate at the inauguration um
47:49
yes amanda gorman amanda amanda gorman
47:52
yeah yeah
47:52
my friend texted me while she was
47:54
speaking just the the phrase
47:56
this is an exorcism yeah and i thought
47:59
yeah
47:59
i think it is and so reading black poets
48:02
poets of color
48:04
reading uh nk jemisin and octavia butler
48:08
and uh tony morrison and letting not
48:10
just
48:11
our imaginations of power structures be
48:14
redeemed and restored but also just our
48:16
imagination of like
48:18
how do we create worlds in our mind be
48:21
liberated from
48:22
from whiteness to and so i think that's
48:24
the first thing
48:26
and then i would also say that if
48:28
there's uh
48:29
if there are white christians who really
48:31
really want
48:33
diversity in their spiritual life you
48:35
can go to a black church
48:37
like do your own work first like don't
48:39
just show up with all your racism and
48:41
like decide that you're going to take
48:42
over black but no no that's not what i'm
48:44
advocating for
48:45
but if you like are doing your work and
48:47
you do your discernment
48:48
and you go and you sit in the pews and
48:51
you
48:52
don't there's zero critical feedback
48:55
nope you sit down you listen
48:57
you you learn you take it in you let
48:59
your mind be reshaped and reformed
49:01
i think you can do that and maybe you
49:04
volunteer to shovel the snow but you're
49:07
not leading stuff
49:09
i think that for many many years i
49:13
approached ministry trying to cultivate
49:15
diversity
49:16
by saying oh look i've done all this
49:18
work please come to me
49:20
and i think that there's still a lot of
49:22
whiteness wrapped up in that idea
49:23
that i'm going to give you the mic
49:27
when there are people of color who have
49:29
mics in their own corners
49:31
and we're just not listening to them
49:33
some people listening might might listen
49:34
to you and say man you're going a little
49:36
bit far
49:36
right like i got in trouble in a sermon
49:39
for say
49:40
with a few people for saying we're all a
49:42
little bit racist at least um
49:44
that's a sensitive thing for some people
49:46
particularly for for some white people
49:48
and
49:48
some people might be listening being
49:50
like ah man
49:52
like do i really have to apologize that
49:54
much for being white you know is that
49:55
what we're talking about here
49:57
um i'm sure you've had that conversation
49:59
multiple times just a little bit
50:02
take us into that like answer that
50:05
question from our listener who might be
50:06
thinking that
50:08
generally think that apologizing for
50:10
being white is not helpful
50:12
most people are not looking for your for
50:14
an apology for being white
50:16
um there's an expression white lady
50:19
tears
50:20
um where you'll have a woman in
50:23
particular but men cry too you know
50:25
whatever
50:26
non-binary siblings cry to um that
50:29
uh you know you're crying and then
50:32
you're trying to
50:33
subconsciously even get a response of
50:36
sympathy like oh no no you're not that
50:38
bad
50:39
it's it's okay which then puts
50:42
the burden of that interaction back on
50:45
the person of color
50:46
um and so i think that generally i have
50:50
learned to view that feeling of
50:53
fragility or that feeling of like oh
50:56
i i don't think so no randy i think
50:59
you're off there when you said it we're
51:01
all a little bit racist that
51:02
um i don't i don't think that doesn't
51:04
sit right in my spirit you know
51:07
that doesn't feel like it's from the
51:08
lord
51:11
i have started to view that feeling
51:15
as an invitation from the holy spirit
51:18
and the moments when i'm being corrected
51:21
particularly from somebody that i have
51:24
otherwise trusted and otherwise
51:26
respected their work
51:29
to view that correction as a gift like
51:31
oh what am i not
51:33
seeing about myself what am i not aware
51:36
of within my life that this person is
51:38
seeing
51:39
right now and they are giving me the
51:42
gift
51:42
of their viewpoint they are giving me
51:45
the gift of their eyes and their ears
51:47
and
51:48
and you know the way that this is all
51:50
hitting them right now
51:52
and like what a precious opportunity
51:56
to engage in that and to sit with that
51:59
and so
52:00
i think that there needs to be a lot
52:03
less
52:04
urgency to fix it that's another way
52:06
that whiteness tends to operate is
52:08
there's a lot of like but we just need
52:09
to fix it
52:10
like what do i need to do to make it go
52:12
away
52:13
instead of saying like this is 400 some
52:17
odd years
52:19
in the making a racial hierarchy
52:23
and so it's not going to be fixed in
52:25
this one apology or statement that i
52:28
issue that this is going to take
52:31
400 some odd years to
52:34
free ourselves from and so to
52:38
embrace the discomfort of that of
52:40
knowing that this is a work that will
52:42
be unfinished when i die regardless of
52:45
whether or not i apologize to you today
52:47
but i do have a responsibility for
52:50
the way that i react
52:53
and the way that i navigate systems and
52:55
particularly systems where people really
52:57
value what i say
52:59
um and i'm responsible for
53:02
what jokes that i laugh at or let go
53:05
unchecked in my presence
53:07
i'm responsible for the policies that
53:10
the
53:11
people i vote for run on and an act
53:15
and those are things that i can change
53:18
and i can shift and those are things
53:21
that don't require a apology
53:25
but they just require a different set of
53:27
actions and there are places too
53:29
for sure where repentance is in order
53:32
not to just like throw all the churchy
53:34
words out there like salvation
53:37
but apologizing and repenting are not
53:41
the same thing
53:42
um and and so there's a real difference
53:45
in saying like oh i'm sorry i did that
53:48
i'm sorry for being white uh versus
53:52
that feedback you just gave me what you
53:55
just told me about myself
53:57
has shown me something different and i'm
53:59
going to walk a different way
54:01
after this moment because of what you
54:03
shared with me
54:05
theology in everyday practice how about
54:07
that
54:08
so in most of the christian spaces i'm
54:11
in i'm the most liberal person in the
54:13
room i'm guessing that may not be the
54:14
case at this moment so i want to ask ask
54:16
this to a fellow liberal christian
54:18
um especially one that wrote a book
54:20
about salvation i haven't thought of
54:22
christianity in terms of salvation in
54:26
more than a decade probably it's if i if
54:29
i were asked by some
54:30
like some legitimately genuinely secular
54:32
person
54:33
to explain christianity to them the
54:35
concept probably wouldn't be a part of
54:38
my introduction to be honest uh and and
54:40
i would i would probably expect that i
54:42
would need
54:43
to explain it away if it did come up uh
54:45
i don't any longer really think of
54:47
christianity in those terms and i don't
54:49
see it as a particularly helpful way of
54:50
explaining
54:51
what i think the core of the religion is
54:54
so
54:55
do you really think that because in some
54:57
ways i think i feel like your
54:58
your book is kind of aimed at um
55:02
other people on the road to a more
55:05
progressive form of christianity
55:07
and in my experience that took me away
55:09
from the concept of salvation altogether
55:11
so
55:11
i'm just curious what your take on that
55:13
is how many progressive or liberal
55:15
christians do you think really
55:17
really think in those terms anymore a
55:19
lot of them it seems to me think of
55:20
being born again as a
55:22
i don't know almost a cliche something
55:24
that calls to mind a form of
55:26
evangelicalism we left behind a long
55:28
time ago yeah for sure
55:30
i i i mean i was writing for the people
55:32
that are on that journey
55:34
and trying to really think through where
55:37
am i trying to meet people
55:38
um and how do we how do i kind of like
55:41
hold their hand
55:42
and walk with them along the road and i
55:45
did not pick the title of my book
55:47
although it is good um i think that born
55:49
again is a huge cliche
55:52
and gosh i know that
55:55
there are things in my life that i'm not
55:58
in power
55:58
to control them right that i am
56:00
powerless over right like
56:02
gosh i know that and so if i think of
56:04
salvation in those terms
56:06
of there are
56:10
powers and principalities if you will or
56:13
there are mindsets
56:14
and thought processes that were handed
56:18
down to me
56:19
from my parents my grandparents my
56:21
ancestors
56:22
that i don't even know how to begin to
56:25
untangle
56:28
i am comfortable at this point of saying
56:30
like yeah i need to be saved from those
56:32
things
56:32
like i need i need some sort of
56:35
intervention there
56:36
i need some sort of uh
56:39
assistance from from the spirit
56:43
um to to guide me through that
56:47
i need to know that life comes out of
56:50
the grave
56:52
i need to know that a resurrected body
56:55
still
56:55
bears scars and that there's still an
56:58
invitation to walk in faithfulness
57:02
despite of and because of all of those
57:04
things
57:05
and so i would say i still hold to a
57:08
an understanding of salvation as
57:12
important um that's part of why i wrote
57:15
a book on it the
57:16
first season of my podcast is all about
57:18
what does it mean to be saved because i
57:19
do think it's still important
57:21
but in a very very different way
57:24
than how i used to think about it
57:26
salvation in that all of creation is
57:28
being redeemed and how do i
57:30
participate in that that'll preach
57:34
so one unique or maybe at least unusual
57:37
thing about the book was that you pepper
57:39
in each chapter
57:40
uh little stories from other people
57:42
people from your life that you know
57:44
uh to illustrate the points that you're
57:46
making in the book
57:48
and they're really compelling they're
57:49
some of my favorite parts of the book
57:50
were those
57:51
those little vignettes uh did you write
57:54
those were those written by the people
57:55
actually themselves they
57:56
were they were some were quite well
57:58
written right i they were written by
58:01
all of those people um all my friends
58:04
and i did i read some of them and i was
58:06
like also i hope you get a book deal
58:08
next because this is really good
58:11
yeah so why did you choose to to write
58:14
it that way to include
58:16
other perspectives it was really
58:17
important to me to
58:19
illustrate even in the structure of the
58:21
book this idea of connection over
58:23
consumption
58:23
right this idea that like i don't come
58:26
to the place
58:27
i am in my life or in my understanding
58:30
of god or the world
58:32
because i have lots of good ideas and
58:34
wow isn't megan westeros super
58:36
um and she's so smart and it's like no
58:39
i came to these conclusions i
58:43
am who i am now to to quote
58:46
uh dr cornell west i am who i am because
58:49
somebody loved
58:50
me and multiple people loved me
58:53
and then some of them even said sure
58:55
i'll write a thing for your book
58:57
um and so you know i included the voices
59:00
of people who have been
59:02
formative for me in one way or another
59:04
uh who were
59:05
willing to go along with this you know
59:08
kind of
59:08
odd idea of hey will you write a 300 to
59:11
500 word
59:12
vignette from my book um but i wanted to
59:15
really illustrate even in the structure
59:17
that like
59:18
you know the way forward is through
59:21
listening humbly and letting yourself be
59:24
formed by the voices of others
59:25
and and that the people you love will
59:28
change you
59:30
and they will change the way you think
59:32
about god and about the world and about
59:33
yourself
59:34
and it will be a more beautiful thing
59:36
because of that yeah one of the people
59:38
that who's
59:41
whose writing really challenged me was a
59:44
pastor of a church called tippecanoe
59:46
presbyterian he called her pastor karen
59:48
and um
59:49
it was in the context of talking about
59:51
the distinction between stewardship
59:53
and ownership seeing yourself seeing
59:55
your own possessions as something that
59:57
really
59:57
belongs to god and belongs to the world
59:59
and
60:01
not something to be hoarded and uh she
60:04
was describing how they
60:05
had taken the grounds around their
60:07
church and actually turned them into a
60:08
garden that they would open up to the
60:10
community and help feed people and
60:12
at one point she said it's not about
60:14
this church these ministries don't
60:16
belong to this church
60:17
and it struck me because i don't i don't
60:20
see my own projects that way i have
60:21
i have a hard time sharing this podcast
60:25
i don't i certainly don't don't view my
60:28
own possessions in that way so
60:29
how can we get better well i had the
60:33
i had the same reaction when i was
60:35
talking with her that was the one
60:37
everybody wrote their own vignettes
60:39
except for that when i interviewed her
60:40
and then typed up the the
60:41
interview um and even as we were talking
60:44
i was like dang
60:46
i don't okay
60:49
um and that church is in it's local it's
60:52
in bayview you can
60:53
drive down and see the see the gardens
60:55
it's quite the uh
60:57
the operation it's pretty cool um
61:00
i think it's one of those things you get
61:01
better by by doing it
61:03
uh it like riding a bike you don't just
61:05
like
61:06
will yourself into being a more generous
61:10
and uh open-hearted person
61:14
uh you know oriented to the world in a
61:16
way that he
61:17
is is in some ways like very much rooted
61:19
in particularly like the hebrew
61:21
bible um this idea that the the earth is
61:24
the lord's
61:26
and not ours and we don't permanently
61:28
own anything
61:29
uh everything goes back uh every 40
61:32
years right like
61:33
the whole concept of jubilee which is
61:36
really really opposite to how we think
61:38
about anything in the united states
61:40
um where it's like this has been in my
61:42
family for
61:43
200 years and we're just gonna keep
61:46
passing it down
61:47
it's so it's challenging for us but i
61:49
think that in in small ways
61:52
you know whatever that looks like for
61:53
people and it's hard right now during
61:55
the pandemic because so many of the
61:56
things when i think about
61:58
how did i kind of start reshaping that
62:00
well the first 10 years that i lived in
62:02
milwaukee
62:03
i lived in a duplex and
62:06
it was kind of considered common space
62:09
for both the church that i was working
62:11
for at the time and also the kids in the
62:13
neighborhood
62:14
who we were trying to minister to and so
62:18
there were just people in and out all
62:20
the time and there were kids on my porch
62:22
from
62:23
in the summer from like 8 a.m until nine
62:26
o'clock at night sometimes
62:27
and it was very formative to really like
62:30
this is
62:31
this is my home and it's not just my
62:34
home
62:35
it is a home and it is a safe place and
62:37
it's a space where people
62:39
feel and find belonging and
62:42
a snack and sidewalk chalk whatever
62:45
right and that's not just for me that's
62:47
for everybody but
62:48
right now it's not exactly advisable to
62:51
say like
62:51
just have an open door policy to your
62:54
house
62:55
so i think that there's there's certain
62:57
challenges in this moment but even the
62:58
idea of
63:00
how do we think about our public health
63:01
measures and is this just so that
63:04
i feel more confident about my own
63:07
health right i'm
63:08
halfway vaccinated right now as a health
63:10
professional
63:13
working in the chaplain settings that i
63:14
work in but that's not
63:16
just for me that's for my patients and
63:20
it's for
63:20
their families and it's for um all these
63:24
things and so i think
63:25
you know even catching ourselves when
63:27
we're doing that self-reflection work
63:30
if we're keeping a gratitude journal or
63:33
whatever that we're not just thinking in
63:35
terms of
63:36
this is how this benefits me but then
63:38
challenging ourselves to think
63:40
does this have a benefit to my neighbors
63:42
and if so what is it and if it doesn't
63:44
how could i hold it differently so that
63:47
it benefits more than just me how do i
63:49
make this a channel of blessing
63:53
and not a well that just
63:56
sinks down
64:00
so megan in your in the second to last
64:02
chapter i
64:04
i mean you got me basically like you you
64:07
slayed me
64:08
telling your story of growing up in the
64:09
church as a as a young woman
64:12
um and i think if i would have one
64:14
critique with the book of megan it was
64:15
that
64:16
that second to last chapter was so good
64:18
i wanted one whole chapter on gender
64:20
in on women in the church and i wanted
64:22
one whole chapter on
64:24
sexuality yeah um so there's there's my
64:27
there's my little
64:28
little beef i want more from you
64:29
basically but that's fair
64:32
yeah uh i'm just gonna read this you
64:35
telling your story of growing up in the
64:36
church
64:37
built some rage in me and it actually
64:39
brought me into your story a little bit
64:42
and helped me empathize a little bit
64:45
with what it
64:45
what it felt like and what it feels like
64:47
for a woman in the church and young
64:49
women in the church in particular
64:50
so you say this is on page 128.
64:54
i have always had the spirit of a leader
64:56
and an entrepreneur
64:57
a spirit that often in my growing
64:59
growing up years got me labeled as a
65:01
jezebel
65:02
that's a southern thing i don't know
65:03
about that that's my commentary
65:06
when it came to matters of faith i
65:07
quickly internalized the conclusion that
65:09
these impulses to create
65:11
dream and lead were problems and not
65:13
gifts
65:14
i prayed for hours that god would give
65:16
me the gentle and quiet
65:18
spirit that good christian girls were
65:20
supposed to have
65:21
yet my big ideas opinions and dreams
65:23
continually disrupted my attempts
65:26
to become quiet and serene i'm going to
65:28
go on the waves of me too in church 2
65:31
survivor accounts resurrected familiar
65:33
feelings in my body
65:35
prickling shivers rushed from head to
65:36
toe and twisted my belly into nuts
65:39
they were as familiar as the pounding of
65:40
my heartbeat that i remember from my
65:42
years as a middle schooler and high
65:43
schooler
65:44
when church leaders would pull me aside
65:46
on a regular basis to tell me
65:47
that i was causing boys to stumble or
65:49
that i was being too much
65:51
quote unquote i didn't know at the time
65:53
how to name those feelings as
65:55
shame and a response to manipulation
65:57
instead i accepted the responsibility of
65:59
protecting the boys around me from
66:01
temptation
66:02
and tried to shrink myself to fit the
66:04
ideals presented to me
66:06
i feverishly wrote out a personal list
66:08
of do's and don'ts for my wardrobe in my
66:10
journal
66:11
i learned to hate my body i convinced
66:14
myself that policing it was a form of
66:16
love
66:17
i learned to hate my voice to see my
66:19
brains in ambition as a liability
66:21
i knew that no amount of praying and
66:23
asking friends to hold me accountable
66:25
was going to produce the quote unquote
66:27
gentle and quiet spirit that a true
66:30
woman of god should possess
66:32
but if i disparage myself as i spoke up
66:34
perhaps i would at least
66:36
signal that i was trying that right
66:39
there
66:41
is an indictment bring us into that
66:44
world what was it like to
66:46
live in that world and to feel like you
66:47
had to be an imposter
66:49
even though you've been created to be a
66:51
certain way
66:53
i think that i wouldn't have even called
66:57
it an imposter
66:59
because labeling yourself as an imposter
67:01
implies that you know
67:02
that you have a different identity a
67:05
different
67:07
solid self outside of that and
67:10
i thought i was defective
67:14
which is different than imposter i
67:16
thought that that was
67:17
my sin you know particularly in that
67:20
circle
67:21
it was my sin that was still holding a
67:24
grip on me that it was
67:27
satan who is stirring these things up
67:30
for me
67:31
and you know making it so impossible for
67:34
me to
67:35
just be quiet and meek and modest
67:38
and um
67:42
have less opinions i i've never
67:45
i've never really been good at any of
67:47
that and
67:50
i just assumed that it meant that i was
67:51
flawed
67:53
and that there would be a certain
67:55
measure of faithfulness that would never
67:57
be accessible to me
68:00
because of that
68:03
there was also a big lie in in the
68:06
circle as i grew up in and i don't think
68:08
i talk about this in the book but this
68:09
idea of like a switch would flip
68:11
when i got married or when i had a kid
68:14
and like well when you do these things
68:16
that make you really a woman
68:18
then a switch will flip and you'll just
68:21
want all these other you'll want to be
68:22
quiet you'll want to be in your
68:24
home and be the the homemaker and you
68:26
know cook and clean whatever and i do
68:28
like to cook
68:29
in part because i like to eat good food
68:32
but
68:34
the switch never flipped there was never
68:36
a switch
68:38
uh if anything i i had my daughter
68:42
and all of a sudden was like oh shoot
68:44
now i have another girl
68:46
i have to figure out how to teach her to
68:48
navigate the world
68:49
so i better figure this out um so i
68:53
you know i had a big blog post that got
68:56
pretty big when blogging was still
68:57
popular about how motherhood made me
69:00
into a feminist
69:01
um so i
69:04
i don't know how to exactly
69:07
bring you into the world anymore than
69:10
than what i wrote i think that that's
69:11
part of the reason why
69:14
uh it is so important for people who
69:18
have one lived experience to
69:23
really approach people with different
69:24
lived experiences with utmost humility
69:26
and respect for that
69:27
and that if somebody is sharing this is
69:31
what i
69:31
have gone through and you know if you
69:33
continue going through that chapter you
69:34
read
69:35
a vignette from a friend of mine who is
69:38
single
69:38
and a friend who is gay and celibate and
69:42
a friend
69:42
who is trans and a friend who right
69:46
and so like all of these different lived
69:48
experiences
69:50
are so important um to listen to with
69:53
the utmost
69:55
humility and just the deepest amount of
69:57
the sacredness of that because i will
69:59
never know
70:02
what those experiences are like and so
70:04
if i'm going to walk in a way that
70:06
demonstrates love for my neighbors who
70:10
have those lived
70:11
experiences then i need to understand
70:14
that i'm never going to get the whole
70:15
depth of it i'm never going to master
70:18
my understanding of what they've lived
70:20
through
70:22
any more than anybody would would master
70:24
their understanding of what i've been
70:26
through as a woman in the church but i
70:28
think it compels me to
70:31
listen carefully and humbly to others
70:35
and it compels me
70:38
to make sure that we're making shifts
70:42
so that we stop causing harm
70:45
um and and i'm encouraged sometimes like
70:48
i have a sticker on my laptop that's
70:52
from
70:52
uh the happy givers um and it says
70:56
something about like
70:57
jesus loved women and protected women
70:59
and listened to women and
71:01
lists all these things that jesus and
71:02
then at the bottom it says
71:04
our turn and i was like yeah a good
71:06
feminist christian sticker yeah
71:08
and my daughter who's almost nine saw it
71:11
like
71:12
this was like last year when i first got
71:13
it and she was like reading it
71:16
and i could tell you her eyes get all
71:17
squinty and she's like reading it
71:18
through and she's like
71:20
yeah and just like it was just like not
71:23
even a thing
71:24
and so then we had a conversation she's
71:26
like why did you put that stupid sticker
71:28
on your laptop like
71:29
why do you why does that need to be said
71:32
and so then we had a conversation about
71:34
it and i was like well
71:35
this is how i grew up and and this is
71:38
what i learned
71:39
and she got so i mean her little fist
71:42
balled up and she started shaking and
71:46
uh and and just this visible
71:49
right like whole body rage of just like
71:52
no and so in those moments
71:56
i feel hope because i'm just like oh
72:01
i have only thought this as long as
72:03
she's been alive
72:05
and she already is getting a different
72:07
story about what it means
72:09
and what other stories could we just say
72:12
you know what
72:13
that story's done we're not telling that
72:15
one anymore if there were more of us
72:17
willing to and going back to what i said
72:20
earlier about leadership willing to just
72:21
say no we're going to break that
72:23
right here we're not going to massage
72:25
around the edges
72:27
we're not going to talk about how okay
72:29
well in some instances god calls deborah
72:32
but usually it needs to be a man
72:34
you know we're just gonna break it right
72:36
here
72:37
um because how much more
72:41
quickly can we tell a different story
72:42
when we're willing to do that
72:44
stories equal power i mean
72:48
it's easy to have a theology that's nice
72:51
and neat and tight and
72:52
you know you have your list of bible
72:55
verses that can
72:55
corroborate said theology and then you
72:58
just
72:59
hear somebody's story then you hear what
73:01
that theology produced
73:03
and what happened you could have even
73:05
easily been a
73:07
gay or lesbian man or woman who had
73:09
those same exact conversations with
73:11
their youth group leaders and had to
73:13
suppress certain things and it's easy
73:16
for us to have these pet verses and to
73:18
have these theological claims
73:20
and then you just start listening to
73:22
people and
73:24
it's not only that a lot of that
73:26
theology starts crumbling or
73:28
it's not that like your view of
73:30
scripture has to change it's just that
73:32
you start seeing different scriptures
73:34
even right i mean i wouldn't advocate
73:37
for anybody giving up scripture because
73:39
it doesn't work
73:40
i would just say we're not seeing the
73:41
right scriptures and that stuff is there
73:43
in plain
73:44
sight but it's kind of hiding because we
73:46
haven't been taught to see it
73:47
right this stuff is christ-like
73:50
all the way through from beginning to
73:52
end what we're talking about
73:53
liberation not selective liberation but
73:56
the whole
73:57
beautiful full deal well done megan i
74:00
loved it
74:01
thank you are you working on anything
74:03
now do you have anything in your brain
74:04
or in your computer hard drive that's uh
74:07
developing
74:08
i do i have a few things that are in my
74:10
computer hard drive and in my brain this
74:12
year has not been great for having
74:14
time to work on creative pet projects
74:18
um but there are some out there if
74:20
people are
74:21
interested in following along and
74:22
finding out what i'm working on like you
74:25
said twitter is a great place for that
74:27
my website is good too and so we'll see
74:31
i really think that like spiritual
74:34
formation is still really really
74:36
important to me
74:37
which is weird for a liberal christian
74:40
or a progressive christian uh neither of
74:43
which are like
74:44
labels that i love but that seems to be
74:45
the the space that people like to land
74:47
me and
74:48
just own it it's okay it doesn't sound
74:49
as bad
74:51
it's more like i know too much about
74:53
church history and theology i'm like
74:54
well
74:55
actually there's this person that was
74:56
writing things like a thousand years ago
74:58
that
74:59
are pretty close to what i'm saying so
75:00
it's not really progressive
75:02
yep it's pretty old but then by that
75:04
point their eyes just kind of glaze over
75:06
and i don't want to hear anything
75:07
about like obscure people that were
75:09
writing in greece or ethiopia totally
75:11
it's fine
75:12
you can call it progressive theology as
75:14
long as it's ancient as well
75:16
yeah yeah um so
75:19
i i think that spiritual formation is
75:21
really really important
75:22
and most of the things that i kind of
75:24
have like humming around in the back of
75:25
my mind or what does it look like for
75:27
there to be like daily spiritual
75:31
practices or like small practices that
75:34
people who aren't necessarily looking
75:36
for like the sit down and spend 15
75:38
minutes in your bible and praying kind
75:40
of quiet time model but still want some
75:42
sort of like daily grounding practice
75:44
like
75:44
what are ways that we can think about
75:46
those things
75:48
um and and kind of writing about
75:51
that more there's lots of things that
75:53
are written on that already
75:55
but i could add my voice to the to the
75:57
chorus there
75:58
do it um so we'll see we'll see what we
76:00
come up with but
76:02
there are certainly things kind of
76:03
bouncing around in my brain
76:07
thanks for listening to a pastor and a
76:08
philosopher walk into a bar we hope you
76:10
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76:11
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76:13
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76:15
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76:18
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76:20
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76:23
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76:25
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76:26
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76:29
until next time this has been a pastor and
76:31
a philosopher walk into a bar
76:34
[Music]