Does the idea, or the very phrase, "Biblical Womanhood" make you shudder a bit? Us too.
In this episode, we interviewed Beth Allison Barr about her book The Making of Biblical Womanhood. Beth is a Historian at Baylor University, and her book makes a brilliant case that the idea of "Biblical Womanhood" is more of a product of the patriarchal world that the Bible was written in than it is a product of the Bible itself, much less God. Dr. Barr shares from her perspective as a historian, and as a woman who's been marginalized by the church herself in painful ways.
This is an important book that needs to be featured in the Church as we journey towards equality and the empowerment of women.
The scotch we sample in this episode is Oban Distillers Edition. It's a delightful treat.
As usual, if you share us on social media and/or leave a review, we'll love you forever.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
Does the idea, or the very phrase, "Biblical Womanhood" make you shudder a bit? Us too.
In this episode, we interviewed Beth Allison Barr about her book The Making of Biblical Womanhood. Beth is a Historian at Baylor University, and her book makes a brilliant case that the idea of "Biblical Womanhood" is more of a product of the patriarchal world that the Bible was written in than it is a product of the Bible itself, much less God. Dr. Barr shares from her perspective as a historian, and as a woman who's been marginalized by the church herself in painful ways.
This is an important book that needs to be featured in the Church as we journey towards equality and the empowerment of women.
The scotch we sample in this episode is Oban Distillers Edition. It's a delightful treat.
As usual, if you share us on social media and/or leave a review, we'll love you forever.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
00:00
welcome to a pastor and philosopher walk
00:02
into a bar
00:03
we're excited to share this time with
00:05
you friends and we're excited about our
00:06
interview tonight
00:07
beth allison barr is the associate
00:10
professor of history and associate
00:11
dean of the graduate school at baylor
00:13
university in waco texas and beth
00:16
wrote this pretty remarkable little book
00:18
called the making of biblical womanhood
00:20
and the subtitle is how the subjugation
00:23
of woman became gospel truth and i think
00:25
that subtitle just says it all right
00:27
there
00:28
it's a pretty astute book that mixes
00:31
biblical scholarship in looking into
00:34
what were the writers of the bible
00:35
thinking when they talked about women in
00:37
the bible and then it goes into her area
00:38
of expertise which is
00:39
church history particularly medieval
00:41
church history and then it mixes in just
00:44
our biases and culture and patriarchy is
00:46
everywhere
00:47
and the idea of the book is abolishing
00:50
patriarchy yeah in the church can i get
00:52
an
00:52
amen yeah yeah and this is a really
00:54
great book to get the historical
00:56
perspective on this issue
00:58
i've read a lot about gender
00:59
complementarianism i'm sure you have to
01:01
a lot of biblical scholarship
01:03
a lot of theology about
01:06
complementarianism and that whole debate
01:09
but i hadn't read much history and and
01:11
that's it's a really
01:13
interesting take to contextualize this
01:15
movement and realize
01:17
gender complementarianism is fairly
01:19
young in the history of the church
01:21
and in some ways kind of parochial and
01:24
so seeing
01:25
seeing it in the context of all of
01:27
church history is really really valuable
01:28
and that's what she does here
01:30
yeah yeah it's fun i mean history is
01:32
like peeling back an onion
01:33
and you get to see what really happened
01:35
and we've lo and behold women have been
01:37
serving and leading in the church for a
01:38
long time
01:39
and uh we kind of have a revisionist
01:41
history that we have but we'll let beth
01:43
get into that because that's her
01:44
area of expertise kyle speaking of area
01:47
of expertise
01:48
we have a scotch before us yeah yeah so
01:51
we're trying for only the second time so
01:54
far
01:54
in the history of our podcast a scotch
01:57
whiskey this time
01:58
so i have for you guys one of my
02:01
favorites
02:02
i brought this back from scotland so
02:06
this is i mean instantly how can we not
02:07
like it i know right so this is an oben
02:10
distillers edition oban
02:14
is a little town on the western coast of
02:17
scotland just north of
02:20
most of the big whiskey producing
02:22
islands
02:23
uh and there's that there's a town
02:24
called open and it kind of grew up
02:26
around the distillery it's actually one
02:27
of the smaller distilleries in the
02:28
country they have only got a couple of
02:30
stills
02:31
but they make some some damn good stuff
02:33
uh and this is their distillers edition
02:35
so it's a little extra special it's
02:37
i got a second maturation in sherry
02:39
casks after
02:40
i was about a 14 year maturation and
02:43
ex-bourbon casks
02:44
so that's about a 15-year-old scotch
02:47
the nose is already overwhelming yeah
02:49
just like
02:50
so smokey and complex yes but way more
02:54
nose than amusing so i picked this one
02:56
specifically because i knew you guys
02:57
weren't super on board with the
02:58
smokiness
03:00
and being centrally located in the
03:01
country this is a pretty good midway
03:04
point between the island dry smoky stuff
03:06
and the totally unpeated highland
03:08
sweeter stuff
03:10
this has a very very low peat level so
03:12
you might get a little bit of smokiness
03:14
but but shouldn't be much
03:16
see this is the trouble with doing
03:18
scotch i want i could go for about 15
03:20
minutes i want to hear like what it
03:21
looks like
03:22
could you see the the coast oh yes see
03:24
this so literally
03:26
walk out the door down the street maybe
03:28
a block or two and you're on the bay
03:30
and on the bay uh you can get fresh
03:33
caught
03:33
um langoustines which is like a little
03:36
lobster basically and fresh caught
03:39
scallops that they cook right in front
03:41
of you
03:42
it's the freshest seafood some of it
03:43
i've ever had it was amazing
03:45
wow okay so this is the the
03:48
weirdness here is that the the nose is
03:50
very sweet you get those sherry casks
03:53
it tastes like that dark cherry you get
03:55
some of the brininess of the
03:57
like it almost smells like the ocean a
03:58
little bit and then you taste it
04:00
and you lose the sherry for me yeah it's
04:03
maybe on the after
04:04
after taste but it's it's still you get
04:07
the peat
04:08
you get the leather you get the smoke
04:10
you get the brine
04:12
it tastes like there's this word called
04:14
terroir which i think really matters
04:15
with scotch
04:16
and wine a lot and it tastes like i'm it
04:19
tastes like i imagine it looking
04:21
you know what i mean yeah yeah it's very
04:24
imaginative uh
04:25
setting in a very imaginative feel
04:27
profile
04:29
for me again it's a little bit of berry
04:30
on the end yeah it's really fruity
04:32
to me like pear was another one that
04:34
came to mind
04:36
a little bit uh like licorice mint like
04:39
some of those
04:40
that that's the way my tongue feels
04:43
yeah i mean scotch for me has that this
04:46
sounds terrible but antiseptic
04:48
uh flavor even it's not a negative it's
04:50
just the way i'm trying to describe it
04:52
but you're right it is a good mix of
04:54
lowland and highland i think
04:56
yeah i really enjoy this this is like a
04:57
gateway scotch i think
04:59
i chose scotch for the when when it was
05:01
like scotch or bourbon because
05:03
i'm so much less experienced with scotch
05:07
yeah yeah this is a real treat coming
05:09
from bourbon it's just it's a different
05:10
realm yeah it really is
05:11
it's fun i mean i think scotch is just
05:13
much more sophisticated than bourbon
05:16
and i say that as somebody who prefers
05:18
bourbon in general but yeah
05:19
there's just so much work to do with it
05:21
because they can age it so much longer
05:22
and as randy said the terroir is so
05:24
different like
05:25
there's kentucky and pretty much
05:26
everywhere in kentucky has the same
05:27
basic climate
05:28
but in scotland the climate ranges
05:30
wildly depending on which region you're
05:32
in so
05:32
you can just do so many different things
05:34
do you ever mix with your scotch
05:36
well with like blended stuff yeah but i
05:38
don't mix single malts
05:41
yeah nor should you the peeting process
05:45
tell us briefly about the peeting
05:46
process uh so basically they take the
05:49
barley
05:50
and they take pete which is like
05:53
sod that grows naturally in scotland and
05:56
they burn it
05:57
under the barley and it the smoke rises
06:00
up
06:01
and they burn it okay so do they have
06:04
the barley in like cheesecloth or
06:05
something like how do they contain
06:06
they have floors um that they lay it on
06:08
that are like perforated floors and so
06:10
they burn so it's within the building it
06:12
just rises up through
06:13
when you tour the distilleries they'll
06:14
take you into these
06:16
uh heating floors and you can actually
06:18
see how it works and it just smolders
06:20
right i mean it's not on fire it's just
06:21
smoking
06:22
well yeah the pizza on fire but not the
06:24
not the barley there's actual
06:25
fire like flame it's full on it's like
06:28
bonfires
06:29
yeah there's like stoves that they burn
06:30
the peat in wow okay
06:32
wow so they peat the barley and then
06:36
they distill it
06:37
and they malt it and distill it yeah
06:39
yeah yeah so great and it's just like
06:41
they do it because they have the stuff
06:43
to do it like it's just
06:44
where they are in the world just
06:46
naturally occurring like
06:48
yards thick like square miles
06:51
of just naturally growing peat you gotta
06:54
do something with it yes
06:55
i mean i bet they like tried cooking
06:57
numerous things and then
06:58
we're like this would be good on some
07:00
whiskey and what would happen if we
07:03
yeah right can you get this in the
07:05
states you can
07:06
i just googled before we got on here to
07:09
see if it was
07:09
available locally and apparently total
07:11
wine has it
07:12
it's a little pricier than i remembered
07:14
it being this is a while ago when i
07:15
bought it but
07:16
but it's available all right well tell
07:19
us what it is again kyle
07:20
so this is the oben distillers edition
07:23
check it out cheers
07:32
well welcome beth allison barr thanks
07:34
for being on the podcast we're happy to
07:35
have you yeah thanks for having me
07:37
so i really love this book uh and this
07:40
is a book that comes out in april is
07:41
that right
07:42
that's right april 20th right so if you
07:45
listen to this around that time
07:47
definitely go out and find it the making
07:49
of biblical womanhood
07:51
really excellent i don't know anything
07:52
about history i'm a philosopher
07:54
i read i read history just for the sake
07:55
of finding out what the arguments were
07:58
so it's it's always nice for me to
08:00
immerse myself in some history that i
08:01
don't know anything about
08:03
and contextualize things from my own
08:05
experience which is definitely what this
08:06
book did
08:07
so thanks for writing it it's super
08:09
important you're welcome thank you
08:11
thanks for reading it
08:13
beth this book uh draws from your
08:15
perspective and expertise in a number of
08:17
areas
08:17
your expertise is a church historian
08:19
which comes out loud and clear
08:21
your biblical study and theological
08:23
reflections
08:24
and then your personal experiences so
08:26
much of the book each chapter you
08:28
highlight
08:29
some stories and what you really bring
08:31
us into what it was
08:32
what it felt like to be ostracized from
08:35
the church that you loved and
08:36
you know worked in and sacrificed for so
08:39
could you
08:40
just bring our listeners into
08:43
where this book came out of on a
08:45
personal level in particular let's start
08:46
there
08:47
yes this book came out of the fall
08:50
of 2016 which was a calamitous moment
08:54
for many many women throughout the u.s
08:57
um
08:57
in fact one of the first people that i
09:00
talked with
09:01
the morning of the election was kristen
09:04
we were emailing each other uh but it
09:06
was but it wasn't just that that fall
09:08
that fall was also when my husband and i
09:11
had come to a moment in our ministry we
09:15
had
09:15
been in complementarian churches all of
09:18
our life my husband's an ordained
09:19
southern baptist
09:20
pastor and he had gone to a
09:23
complementarian cemetery
09:25
i mean cemetery a seminary
09:28
yes maybe that was there uh he had gone
09:31
to a complementarian seminary
09:34
um and we had grown up
09:37
in this understanding that women are
09:40
divinely ordained to be under male
09:42
leadership
09:43
and it was sort of a slow evolution for
09:46
us and i
09:47
talk about some of that evolution in the
09:49
book but we had come to a moment
09:51
in our ministry where we realized we
09:53
could no longer
09:54
support completely support
09:56
complementarianism and in fact
09:58
um we realized that for all of the all
10:01
of the women and men that we the young
10:02
women and men that we worked with
10:04
that we needed to show a different way
10:08
and so we had begun to
10:11
see if we could move the needle in our
10:14
very complementarian church
10:16
my husband and i were pretty reasonable
10:19
people
10:20
and logical and so we you know we're
10:22
like well if we just show them the
10:24
evidence
10:25
you know the evidence is just
10:27
overwhelming let's just show them the
10:28
evidence and so
10:29
that was that didn't work out well um
10:32
but we had asked to have a woman teach
10:36
high school sunday school and we
10:39
received a hard no
10:40
on that and we decided that
10:44
we couldn't live with that and we
10:46
decided at that point we were going to
10:48
challenge it our goal was to try to get
10:52
the church to have a
10:53
constructive conversation about male
10:56
female roles
10:57
and ever and actually people in the
10:59
church understand where the church stood
11:01
on this issue because
11:02
it was very hidden where they stood on
11:04
this um lots of people had no idea
11:07
so that was our goal uh didn't work out
11:09
so well three weeks after that my
11:10
husband was fired
11:12
and it was a pretty traumatic event for
11:14
us uh
11:15
partially because we were silenced um
11:18
they held our severance
11:20
f uh our severance pay sort of doled it
11:22
out
11:23
over the month so that with and it was
11:25
told to us that it was
11:26
based upon our good behavior which meant
11:30
we had we couldn't tell anyone what was
11:32
going on
11:33
and in fact any event before we left any
11:36
event that we had
11:37
we would always have you know the the
11:39
guards would come
11:40
to watch us and make sure i mean it was
11:43
it was very
11:44
horrific the way that we were treated by
11:46
the by the leadership
11:48
and it is and we were both in trauma
11:50
because
11:51
we really didn't quite expect it to be
11:54
as bad as it was going to be as it
11:55
turned
11:56
out to be and then in the midst of this
11:59
donald trump gets elected by my friends
12:01
that i go to church with
12:04
and it was really those those events
12:07
that came together and i'm
12:08
i'm not um i would still consider myself
12:10
in the evangelical
12:12
camp people keep trying to push me one
12:14
you know push me out in other ways but
12:16
i this is where i grew up this is this
12:18
is what i'm comfortable with
12:19
my tradition and so i it seems to me
12:23
that for the election to hit somebody
12:25
like me the way that it did
12:27
that it just really shows the trauma
12:29
that this caused and in fact
12:30
beth moore is a really good example of
12:32
the trauma of this
12:34
um but so i
12:37
i had this moment and in fact i start
12:39
the book off
12:40
with the moment where i broke and it's
12:43
the moment that i
12:44
suddenly realized that what was
12:46
happening to us
12:47
was not only wrong but it was damaging
12:50
to the gospel of jesus
12:52
and it contributed to the abuse and harm
12:56
of both women and men
12:57
and something had to be done and i
13:00
didn't really know what i was going to
13:01
do at that point
13:03
but i began writing in fact i posted not
13:06
too long ago
13:07
on the anxious bench where i still write
13:08
i posted uh over christmas i said the
13:11
christmas beginning of the making of
13:12
biblical womanhood and it's the post i
13:14
wrote that day
13:15
when i broke and it was sort of my
13:18
manifesto
13:19
that i stood for jesus
13:22
and i was going to fight for jesus and i
13:25
was not going to
13:27
fight for this church anymore for these
13:29
complementarian roles
13:30
and so i began writing several posts on
13:33
the anxious bench that began
13:35
combating from a historical perspective
13:38
complementarian ideology and that was
13:40
when i got contacted by
13:42
an acquisition editor who asked if i had
13:44
considered writing a book
13:46
and so that was really how how the
13:48
making of biblical womanhood began
13:50
wow let me just pause there for a second
13:52
for our listeners beth said something
13:53
really profound right there she said
13:55
i had to stand for jesus i couldn't
13:57
stand for this church anymore and
13:59
um i want to say listeners many of us
14:02
if not most of us are probably going to
14:03
come if you're a person of faith
14:05
particularly in the evangelical church
14:07
particularly in a more
14:09
i want to say conservative background
14:11
you're probably going to come if you
14:12
haven't
14:12
come already you're going to come to one
14:14
of those points where you have to choose
14:15
between following
14:16
christ and the gospel or following the
14:18
tradition that you've been a part of
14:19
and man we bless you to make that right
14:21
decision because there's only one right
14:23
decision there
14:24
there is no two decisions there is no
14:26
two options there there's
14:28
one decision to make and that's jesus
14:30
and beth let me just as a quick
14:32
follow-up
14:33
one of the most appalling stories to me
14:34
in your book you've got all these
14:35
personal stories which are
14:37
so profound and powerful the one that
14:39
just blew my doors off was when you
14:41
talked about your husband who's the
14:42
youth pastor
14:43
being often some conference and then the
14:46
backup
14:47
to to your husband or something being
14:48
away or sick or something
14:50
and so you were just like hey i can fill
14:51
in you're you're phd
14:53
either student or you could uh
15:04
and you had to convince the pastor to
15:06
let you teach and that couldn't happen
15:08
can you just tell us quickly about that
15:09
story it blew my doors
15:10
yeah so i mean it was pretty standard um
15:14
this was something i'd had to do more
15:16
than once uh it's just this moment
15:18
was at the point in my life where i was
15:20
really beginning to realize how wrong
15:22
complementarian theology was
15:25
and my husband was he was away uh he was
15:27
at it was
15:28
our youth mission trip and usually we
15:30
had we had a teacher who
15:33
taught the youth sunday school there
15:34
weren't very many youth left most of
15:36
them had gone off on the mission trip
15:38
but there were a few and so he was
15:40
supposed to teach
15:41
and he called in sick his whole family
15:43
was sick he called in it was like
15:45
15 minutes before i was on my way to
15:48
church i was driving
15:50
and i was just like i you know there's
15:53
i have to do it there's no one else to
15:54
do it we can't pull anyone else in
15:56
and i'm pretty good at i knew i could
15:59
teach something
16:00
pretty quickly it wasn't a big deal you
16:02
know i could i could handle a classroom
16:04
of students
16:04
uh for 35 minutes uh so i wasn't worried
16:08
about it but i had to call the pastor
16:10
and officially get permission
16:12
to do this because um we had been told
16:16
my husband had been i don't he had been
16:19
reprimanded for allowing i i don't know
16:22
if reprimands the right word he had been
16:24
warned about how often i
16:27
taught and was in the classroom and that
16:30
you know this reminder that this
16:32
wasn't you know we had been given clear
16:34
reminders that this wasn't where this
16:36
church stood
16:37
so i had to call the pastor
16:40
and ask and it was this moment because
16:43
i'm a
16:44
pretty easy going person lose my temper
16:47
all that often i can count on my fingers
16:49
the times that i've really lost my
16:51
temper with people
16:52
and i just had this ball inside of me
16:55
where i was like i can't believe
16:57
i have to do this i can't believe i have
16:59
to call and ask the pastor
17:01
for permission to teach
17:04
to talk about the bible with high school
17:07
students
17:08
because they believe that because i'm
17:11
a woman that i am under the authority of
17:14
13 year old boys
17:16
come on i mean that's essentially it it
17:19
argues i mean if you
17:20
if you think about this is what it says
17:21
it says there is something about the
17:23
body of a 13 year old boy
17:25
that can teach the bible but the body of
17:28
a woman
17:29
can't and i mean this is this is insane
17:32
and if we
17:32
if we think about abuse in the church
17:34
and we think about what young boys are
17:36
being i mean i have a 16 year old son
17:38
so i'm totally i mean if you if my
17:42
16 year old son had grown up in a church
17:44
believing there was something about him
17:47
that enabled him to teach a lesson
17:50
that a his mom couldn't teach
17:53
or that an adult i mean that
17:55
psychological
17:57
impact is just i mean no wonder we've
17:59
had so many abuse scandals in the church
18:01
i mean it just really is it teaches
18:03
boys that women are not as human as they
18:05
are
18:06
yeah and so that moment i think it just
18:09
really i suddenly
18:10
realized that and it was you know i have
18:13
all these moments that i talk about in
18:14
the church where
18:15
it the complementarian world began to
18:18
break for me
18:19
and this was one of those that's just
18:21
really stands out yeah
18:22
and we're not talking about an average
18:25
mom
18:26
even though an average mom would be more
18:28
qualified than to teach
18:29
than a 13 year old boy let's be honest
18:31
but we're talking about a mom
18:32
with a phd in church history who they're
18:35
saying
18:36
a 13 year old boy is more qualified to
18:38
teach i mean and i want to say
18:39
friends for some of you who might be
18:41
listening think this is just an
18:42
aberration this is just this is just a
18:44
little
18:44
minority it's not this is this is
18:47
normal in the baptist denomination in
18:50
many baptist denominations in the
18:52
evangelical church
18:53
in the complementarian world this is not
18:56
an aberration this is way more normal
18:58
than we think and
18:58
this needs to come to the surface it's
19:01
presbyterian
19:02
it's you know opc presidentarian it's
19:05
southern baptist
19:06
it's independent baptist ibf it is bible
19:09
churches bible churches
19:11
really often trend complementarian and
19:14
what's scary about bible churches is
19:15
they have
19:16
absolutely no structures over them
19:19
that help you know that help keep the
19:21
pastors in line
19:22
so bible church is it's really dangerous
19:25
because there's no sort of structure at
19:26
all
19:27
and then uh i what is john macarthur
19:29
whatever john macarthur is i actually
19:31
don't
19:32
some form of baptist that i'm not is he
19:34
baptist anyway so
19:35
pentecostal um it's in pentecostal it's
19:38
also in conservative catholicism
19:40
there's been this sort of odd which to
19:42
me as a catholic historian is
19:43
is really interesting but there's been
19:45
this sort of conservative resurgence
19:47
and um concern conservative catholicism
19:49
too
19:51
yeah so a major strength of your book is
19:54
that it reveals the historical
19:56
contingency of complementarianism
19:58
uh so for example women leaders and you
20:01
point this out with example after
20:02
example in the book women leaders were
20:04
common in early christianity they were
20:06
much more common than i realized in
20:07
medieval christianity
20:09
but this contingency is often hidden
20:11
from the people inside the
20:12
complementarian traditions that you just
20:14
named having grown up in one i had
20:15
no idea that it wasn't just the essence
20:18
of christianity you know
20:19
it's just in the soil so how did this
20:22
history get lost
20:23
to complementarian traditions can you
20:26
say a little bit about the historical
20:27
roots of say a piper grudem style
20:30
of complementarianism or patriarchy
20:33
and maybe another way to put the
20:34
question is what was the most recent
20:36
version of christianity that didn't have
20:38
that
20:40
okay so on the one hand there is not a
20:42
version of christianity that doesn't
20:44
have some sort of patriarchy that has
20:46
infiltrated it because almost from the
20:48
very beginning
20:48
because we live we because patriarchy
20:53
in many ways and part of what i my
20:55
argument is is that it
20:56
it came out of the fall itself this idea
20:59
of building
21:00
hierarchies and one per one simply
21:03
because the way we are born somebody's
21:04
better than somebody else
21:06
which is why complementarians argue that
21:09
their understanding of gender roles
21:11
is written into the stars i'm thinking
21:13
of elizabeth elliott i think she's the
21:14
one who had that metaphor you know it's
21:16
divinely created it's divinely ordained
21:18
but the problem with that is that
21:20
complex even though patriarchy is
21:22
consistent
21:23
in that big thread the way patriarchy is
21:26
implemented is not consistent
21:28
i i'm sorry i have to teach with my arms
21:29
i know people listening can't see it but
21:31
um the way patriarchy is implemented is
21:34
not consistent it depends upon the
21:36
historical factors around it so
21:38
in the in the ancient church the reason
21:40
we start seeing women being pushed out
21:41
of leadership if we look in romans 16
21:44
it's full of women leaders i mean
21:46
there's just when
21:47
once you see it you totally see how
21:49
prevalent women were
21:50
in the early church as leaders teachers
21:53
deacons
21:53
apostles etc the early church also
21:58
lived in this greco-roman world that
22:00
argued that women's bodies are
22:03
not equal to men's bodies and this
22:05
infiltrated the church pretty early on
22:07
and we begin to see some of the early
22:08
councils in the fifth and the sixth
22:10
century start saying that the reason
22:11
women
22:12
can't be priests and officiate at the
22:14
altar anymore is because their bodies
22:16
are inferior to men that there's
22:18
something corrupt about their bodies
22:19
but the loophole with this and this is
22:21
what develops in the medieval tradition
22:23
is that the medieval world um sort of
22:26
different
22:26
understanding of gender and women's
22:29
bodies were seen to be
22:30
corrupt male bodies which aristotle says
22:34
it's a good thing they're corrupt
22:35
because that's how we have procreation
22:36
but nonetheless they're corrupt male
22:38
bodies
22:39
and that women can overcome the
22:42
corruptness of their bodies
22:44
and move closer to god and so women who
22:48
forsake their female bodies forsake
22:52
being a wife and a mother for say child
22:55
bearing
22:55
that they can actually overcome the
22:58
limitations of their bodies
23:00
and speak with the authority of men and
23:03
so this is why we have female preachers
23:05
in the medieval world
23:07
in fact some medieval theologians argued
23:10
that
23:10
that paul's directives when they talked
23:13
about paul they said
23:14
paul's directives don't apply to women
23:16
who aren't wives
23:18
because it's only about sort of that
23:19
legal covering that it has nothing to do
23:22
you know that women outside of that can
23:24
overcome their sex and
23:25
preach and teach like men so
23:28
so this was very prevalent and in fact
23:31
up until the
23:32
the cusp of the reformation the 15th
23:34
century is actually a time period where
23:36
we see a whole lot of women
23:38
living serving leading preaching
23:41
teaching
23:42
playing pretty prominent roles in the
23:44
church even in the ordinary parish we
23:46
see a lot of women who are very
23:47
active and this comes to a relatively
23:51
abrupt
23:52
halt after the reformation and
23:55
part of what you know and what i argue
23:57
is that the
23:58
historical conditions change and
24:01
we have the beginning of a teaching
24:04
emphasizes the authority of the
24:06
household
24:08
and the subordination of women within
24:10
that household
24:11
and even though that as i try to argue
24:15
in the book
24:15
there's a lot of nuance in here it is
24:17
not solely because of reformation
24:19
theology reformation theology really
24:21
should have allowed women to be
24:22
preachers and teachers
24:24
but it was tied to these changes these
24:26
social and economic changes
24:28
that were emphasizing this household
24:31
order and
24:32
which mimicked the order of the state
24:34
and so
24:35
women patriarchy kind of defeats
24:38
theology
24:39
and for modern like piper and grudem
24:42
today
24:43
i don't think they would in fact i know
24:45
this i've read a lot of uh church
24:47
history curriculum
24:48
but most protestants of this nature
24:51
would
24:51
don't really consider catholicism to be
24:54
part of i mean in some ways part of the
24:55
christian tradition or they're a very
24:57
corrupt form of the christian tradition
24:59
so we don't teach about catholicism i
25:01
mean if you look at a lot of sunday
25:03
school material and history
25:04
you know books that are written for the
25:05
church we go through
25:07
like the nicene and the calcidonian era
25:10
and then we kind of have this weird
25:12
there's some monks
25:14
and nuns who maybe knew jesus but nobody
25:16
else really did
25:18
and then we have the reformation and
25:19
then everything else is reformation
25:22
and so that's really a big problem of
25:24
why is because we start our history
25:26
with the male leaders of the reformation
25:29
and the people who wrote that history
25:31
for us were mostly 19th century scholars
25:34
um the history we tell in books today
25:36
the history we tell
25:37
in our seminary textbooks follows almost
25:40
exactly the layout of 19th century
25:43
historians
25:43
i mean 19th century scholars and so i
25:47
mean
25:47
this this is why we because the
25:50
histories we tell now are histories
25:51
written by men
25:53
told about men emphasizing male
25:55
leadership
25:56
and and then we repeat that over and
25:59
over and over again
26:01
so is that help you yeah and and that's
26:05
that's seminary textbooks imagine the
26:07
dumbed down version of that that you're
26:09
getting in a church sunday school class
26:12
yeah i've read some of it and i it's
26:15
it's very hard for me to get through it
26:17
yeah yeah
26:18
can you say a little bit more because
26:20
this part really intrigued me it's it's
26:21
kind of a tangent but i think it's an
26:22
interesting tangent so in chapter three
26:25
you describe some stuff that's happening
26:27
in the medieval church
26:28
and you make the claim that the celibacy
26:30
of the priesthood which was mandated
26:33
at a certain point in the catholic
26:35
church was in a lot of ways
26:37
influenced by or maybe even motivated by
26:41
what we would now call misogyny at least
26:42
like a fear of women's bodies as being
26:44
sexually threatening or something like
26:46
that can you
26:47
explain in a little more detail that
26:48
history yes so that's an interesting um
26:51
convergence
26:52
and it's i tried i can't tell you how
26:55
many times i rewrote that section
26:56
because it's so complicated actually and
26:58
so trying to
26:59
try to explain it in a very concise way
27:03
but essentially what we see happening is
27:05
by the time we get to the 10th and the
27:06
11th
27:07
centuries christianity has taken over
27:10
europe
27:11
and it has become quite a stronghold it
27:13
has allied itself with the political
27:16
powers
27:17
you know and this isn't necessarily a
27:18
bad thing at this time it's it's
27:20
bolstering christianity itself it's
27:23
helping to certainly make it very secure
27:25
and and so it we see the church starting
27:28
to reorganize itself and more tightly
27:30
organize itself
27:31
and anytime we see the church
27:32
reorganizing itself we often
27:35
can predict that women are going to
27:36
start being pushed out and so anytime we
27:38
see leadership
27:39
being clearly defined and so this is
27:42
also the time that we start seeing
27:43
ordination
27:44
being you know ordination wasn't really
27:46
a big deal until now
27:48
where we start defining who gets to be a
27:50
priest
27:51
and part of this is motivated part of it
27:54
is a concern about the female body
27:56
that there's something wrong with the
27:58
female body that we that women's bodies
28:00
are impure
28:01
it's kind of interesting because on the
28:03
one hand it was a woman's body
28:04
that brought jesus into the world but
28:07
yet here we have this
28:08
a woman's body is too impure to handle
28:12
the the eucharist you know the body of
28:14
christ at the altar and so
28:16
it's kind of it's very much we see how
28:18
much this aristotelian idea has snuck
28:20
back into the christian world
28:22
definitely as misogyny but this misogyny
28:24
was
28:25
amplified by a really big problem the
28:28
church was having and
28:30
that was who gets to say
28:33
who's in charge of the church who gets
28:34
to appoint the leaders of the church who
28:36
gets to appoint the bishops and the
28:37
priests
28:38
and up until this time oftentimes the
28:40
bishops and the priests and the leaders
28:42
were appointed by the political
28:44
leaders and this and the church is
28:46
trying to break away from that
28:49
and at the same time the church is also
28:50
having a problem because of many of the
28:52
leaders who are getting appointed
28:54
are actually the children of priests and
28:56
so instead of people being called into
28:58
ministry
28:59
it's you know it's nepotism it's the
29:01
children of
29:03
and and part of this problem is too is
29:05
that the church is wanting to maintain
29:06
control over its property
29:08
and when you have a clerical leader who
29:11
is
29:12
over a parish and has a child who then
29:15
becomes the next leader
29:16
in there that property begins to stay
29:19
with the family
29:20
it does not stay with so you see all of
29:21
these pieces that are tied up in this
29:24
and a really great solution for all this
29:26
was to enforce clerical celibacy
29:28
because what that did is that would make
29:30
it where priests couldn't marry
29:32
their heirs were not legitimate which
29:34
means that they couldn't have control
29:36
over that property it also meant that
29:38
their children
29:40
were less likely to enter the priesthood
29:43
which meant that the church would be
29:44
able to choose the successors
29:47
and then this also enabled the church in
29:49
keeping control over the property
29:51
and establishing that being chosen as a
29:54
priest or a bishop or
29:56
whatever that this is actually something
29:58
ordained by god
30:00
and it is part of the spiritual power
30:02
not the temporal power which is earthly
30:04
power
30:04
that political leaders shouldn't do it
30:06
either so it was a way that the church
30:08
was kind of resting control
30:10
away and getting to appoint its own
30:11
leaders and part of this story
30:14
women got pulled into this story to help
30:17
enforce clerical celibacy and
30:20
it it worked really well
30:24
and clerical celebrities can take a long
30:26
time for it to
30:28
really take root and it doesn't always
30:30
take root in many places
30:32
but women associated with these priests
30:35
and women who have the children
30:37
of these priests are not treated well
30:39
and
30:40
are often always considered you know to
30:42
to be
30:43
i mean i mean they're often referred to
30:45
as as concubines and even as prostitutes
30:48
the status of these women was
30:49
significantly lowered
30:52
do you think that because the the same
30:55
kind of celibacy thing didn't happen in
30:56
the east or
30:57
or in protestantism yeah how is the
31:00
situation of women in those traditions
31:02
comparatively yeah
31:04
so you know it's interesting that you
31:06
bring up and i'm not as much
31:08
when i think about medieval christianity
31:10
i very much am focused on the west but
31:12
what we do know
31:13
in the eastern church we know that
31:15
women's leadership in the church
31:16
actually lasts
31:17
longer and we see a lot more women very
31:20
active in the church we also know that a
31:23
lot you know we can think about people
31:25
like john chrysostom
31:26
who was very much a champ of
31:29
women as leaders i mean he he talks
31:32
about women deacons
31:34
and doesn't i mean he doesn't really
31:35
have a problem with any of these women
31:37
in these types of roles and so we
31:39
certainly see that
31:41
what is happening in the east is not
31:43
being as
31:44
influenced by these greco-roman
31:48
ideals and that is allowing there to be
31:51
more room for women to be in
31:54
leadership positions and to have
31:56
influential positions in the church
31:59
this also is going to begin to disappear
32:02
in in the eastern orthodox church as
32:04
well in byzantium
32:06
so there's a lot of reasons for that but
32:08
it is
32:09
there is more we have a lot of the very
32:11
powerful stories of early female saints
32:14
are from the east and in fact i have a
32:16
student who
32:18
she followed a tradition called the
32:20
golden legend which is a book of saints
32:22
that became very very popular in the
32:24
west and it
32:25
a sort of a version of it it went to
32:28
ethiopia
32:29
and what she began to notice is that
32:32
those ethiopian women
32:34
carried a lot more authority and their
32:36
authority wasn't based upon their
32:37
virginity their authority was based upon
32:39
their motherhood
32:41
and that we have these really powerful
32:43
female
32:44
mothers who become religious leaders
32:48
in africa and so it's a very different
32:51
story
32:52
isn't that some of the same traditions
32:54
that maintained a
32:56
femininity of the holy spirit tradition
32:58
for longer than the others oh yeah
32:59
well and i mean medieval catholicism did
33:02
too in fact that's one of the things
33:03
that we see
33:03
this resurgence this greater emphasis on
33:06
the
33:07
the suffering body of christ and the
33:09
suffering and the suffering body of his
33:11
mother
33:12
and the body of of women and this
33:14
feminine characteristics i mean we see
33:16
this with many of the monastic
33:17
traditions
33:18
that actually would align themselves
33:21
with the feminine side of jesus and even
33:24
the feminine side of paul
33:26
and would associate themselves as the
33:29
brides of christ
33:30
which so yes so there is this strong
33:33
emphasis on the female body
33:35
and there's even these images in the
33:37
late medieval world that i've worked a
33:39
little bit on and they're amazing images
33:41
and they're essentially these statues of
33:43
the virgin
33:45
and they're split down the middle and
33:47
when you open them up the entire trinity
33:49
is in her room
33:51
and i mean they're really they're
33:53
amazing
33:54
because it's sort of it's like the body
33:56
of the body of a woman
33:58
carries the the trinity embodies
34:02
god i mean it's they eventually were
34:05
declared heretical
34:06
because you could see something because
34:07
i was thinking that sounds so much more
34:09
orthodox to me than southern baptists
34:12
well you know it is very but i think
34:14
part of this i mean you can think back
34:16
you can think of um
34:17
one of the things that really got me
34:18
started on this journey and i can't
34:20
remember when it was like 2010 or 2011
34:23
or something but
34:24
john piper was at this men's conference
34:27
i think it was a pastoral leadership
34:28
conference or something and he gave this
34:30
infamous talk where he said christianity
34:33
has a masculine feel
34:35
and that as a medieval historian i was
34:38
like
34:39
if you read medieval texts christianity
34:42
has a
34:43
feminine feel this emphasis on
34:46
mary this emphasis on body of this
34:49
emphasis in fact one of the things that
34:50
i
34:51
see in medieval sermons is that women
34:54
are more receptive
34:55
to the gospel women are more receptive
34:57
to jesus
34:58
this is actually something you also see
35:00
in the gospel accounts and medieval
35:01
people
35:02
picked up on it and so it's just it
35:04
tells us that this emphasis on
35:06
masculinity versus femininity
35:08
is not driven by the bible itself but
35:10
it's a cultural
35:11
it's a cultural thing the shift to the
35:13
masculine idea of jesus
35:20
friends before we continue we want to
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just in case we got any listeners who
35:57
are glazing over because we're talking
36:00
history here sorry
36:01
no no no because i know there's a lot of
36:02
listeners who are like yes we're talking
36:04
about history
36:05
but then there are some who are probably
36:06
like wow we're talking about history and
36:07
i'm playing over
36:08
this stuff matters what dr barr is
36:12
talking about is pulling off the lid
36:14
of our very modern church history and
36:16
saying let's look a little bit deeper
36:17
in finding here's the here's a crazy
36:19
thing she's she's speaking to
36:21
the medieval church which was shrouded
36:24
in patriarchy intense patriarchy
36:26
was probably more empowering to women in
36:29
the medieval church
36:30
than many of the churches are in 2021
36:32
today
36:34
that we need to sit with and then she
36:36
just said john chrysostom who is
36:38
probably
36:38
the greatest preacher in the early
36:40
church in the 4th century
36:42
was affirming that women are deacons
36:44
women are when we're in our apostles
36:46
women are leaders in the church
36:47
this is just a thing that he was
36:48
affirming these things matter they do
36:51
and mary magdalene in the medieval
36:53
church was actually called the apostle
36:55
to the apostles
36:56
yeah and was considered you know and
36:58
this doesn't go away
37:00
until like the 17th century where we see
37:02
this where she stops being referenced
37:04
as the apostle to the apostles so you
37:08
know
37:08
i think what happened sort of the shift
37:10
from the medieval world to the early
37:12
modern world even
37:13
in the modern world even though
37:14
patriarchy is a constant there was this
37:17
loophole
37:17
in the medieval world that went away
37:20
after the reformation
37:21
where women were now our highest calling
37:24
instead of
37:25
serving god as our highest calling our
37:27
highest calling was being wives and
37:29
mothers under the authority of men
37:32
and that is really what has given birth
37:34
to modern biblical womanhood yeah
37:36
probably burst out of these
37:37
complementaries and cemeteries right
37:40
oh i totally didn't mean to say that i'm
37:42
not going to leave that down i'm not
37:43
going to live that one down
37:45
as like a sound bite and release it on
37:47
its own
37:48
i'm going to get in trouble for that one
37:50
uh um so randy i'm i've been hogging the
37:53
conversation here but i have one more
37:54
question and then i swear yeah
37:56
so let's think about the bible for a
37:58
little bit i know randy has some things
38:00
to ask about the bible
38:01
i love categorizing things i'm a
38:02
philosopher that's what we do so
38:04
i want to categorize you if i can and
38:06
then you can regulate oh
38:07
yeah wiggle out of it you're gonna have
38:08
a hard time that's fine i'm gonna do my
38:10
best
38:10
um so when i when i look at people
38:13
commenting on issues like gender and the
38:15
bible or race and the bible or lgbtq
38:17
issues in the bible
38:19
seems like to me people generally fall
38:21
into one of four categories right
38:22
so category one would be those who think
38:25
the bible supports let's just call it
38:26
traditional views
38:28
of those topics patriarchy supremacy etc
38:31
and also the bible is authoritative and
38:33
therefore we ought to do what the bible
38:34
says and we should be patriarchal and
38:36
supremacist and whatnot so that's
38:37
category one
38:39
category two would be those who think
38:40
the bible supports progressive views
38:42
on those issues and they agree that the
38:44
bible is authoritative
38:46
so we should do what the bible says and
38:47
we should be progressive category three
38:49
would be those who think the bible
38:50
supports traditional views so they
38:52
agree with category one but they reject
38:54
the authority
38:55
of the bible so we don't need to follow
38:57
it because it's an ancient book
38:58
and then category four would be those
39:00
who think it's both progressive and also
39:02
not authoritative so it's just an
39:03
interesting historical example it's nice
39:05
that it agrees with us but we don't have
39:06
to put any weight in it
39:07
so where would you fall in that schema
39:10
and what do you think of the other ones
39:11
i'll let you categorize me a little bit
39:13
i can tell you what i'm not
39:14
all right i am not four and i'm not
39:16
three okay
39:18
so if that maybe helps you a little bit
39:20
yeah i would have guessed you were
39:21
two based on the book well
39:24
you know i'm i don't know if i'm going
39:26
to let you put me in a box
39:28
and part of this is my personality
39:30
people keep trying to make me do the
39:31
enneagram
39:32
and i just won't do it hold on
39:36
i i am i'm told people are like what's
39:38
your number and i'm like i have no idea
39:39
it doesn't matter
39:40
um i i don't really like and i think
39:43
this is part
39:44
of this where what do i believe i
39:47
believe the bible is completely
39:48
trustworthy
39:49
i believe that the bible is inspired by
39:52
god by r but written by people
39:54
and what's miraculous about the bible is
39:56
that the message of jesus comes through
39:59
despite the fact that human flawed
40:01
people
40:02
wrote the words of god and and i believe
40:06
that you know i think what i think is
40:09
important is this
40:10
what i would consider to be the the
40:12
primary issue that all christians
40:14
can agree upon is what we believe about
40:16
jesus which is also why complementarians
40:19
i think are starting to go outside that
40:20
camp because of their emphasis
40:22
on eternal subordination of the sun
40:24
which makes them not actually orthodox
40:26
christians
40:27
so but beside that so i but at the same
40:30
time
40:32
i'm very comfortable i suppose in what
40:34
you would consider to be the
40:35
you know uh christian i love the way
40:37
kristin dumay does this is the imagined
40:40
evangelical
40:41
i like imagined evangelicalism
40:44
because i like this emphasis on the the
40:47
the crucifixion of jesus the crucifixion
40:50
and resurrection of jesus this
40:51
christocentrism which is also very
40:53
medieval
40:54
which is another reason i like it you
40:55
know this chrysocentrism
40:57
it's a medieval ideal i love it in
40:59
evangelicalism
41:00
i love the emphasis on the bible too i
41:02
think the bible is a
41:04
wonderful miraculous book i don't think
41:07
that
41:07
it is i think human translators over
41:10
time
41:11
have messed some with the text and that
41:13
might get me into trouble but it's but
41:15
it's historically it's very clear that
41:18
that has happened but i think jesus
41:20
still comes through regardless it
41:21
doesn't matter that much
41:23
so i like the biblicism i like the
41:25
christocentrism i like the
41:27
um the the conversionism impulse you
41:30
know even
41:30
like as a medievalist reading a lot of
41:33
augustine i mean here's this fantastic
41:34
conversion moment you know take up and
41:36
read
41:37
and where he says oh my god you know and
41:39
then he converts i love that a lot of
41:41
medieval saints have those same types of
41:42
conversion stories
41:44
so i really like that and then i also
41:46
like telling people you know i
41:48
i'm not ashamed i i like telling i i've
41:51
been a christian all my life
41:53
and so i like the imagined
41:55
evangelicalism
41:56
what i don't like is how encumbered it
41:58
has become
42:00
by cultural issues that keep us from
42:02
doing the work of the gospel
42:04
and the work of the gospel it has seemed
42:06
the same from the old testament to the
42:07
new testament it's caring for those
42:10
who we don't usually care for those
42:12
people who are on the outside of society
42:14
the people that jesus always shows love
42:16
to
42:17
and and so if that social gospel then
42:20
yes
42:20
i do i do bring that into my theology
42:23
but that's because jesus does
42:25
and i don't think we can go away from so
42:26
is that helpful a little bit
42:28
where are you gonna put me oh you
42:30
wriggled out of it
42:31
no you're you're enneagram eight just so
42:34
you know
42:34
[Music]
42:36
you know people have told me that i've
42:37
also been told i'm a one i've been told
42:39
i'm a four
42:40
i've been told i'm a five which i don't
42:42
really understand you're probably
42:45
randy and i just had a recent
42:46
conversation about this then
42:48
if our listeners are interested it's
42:49
available on our patreon
42:51
i might go listen to that to see what
42:53
you'll say about the enneagram
42:55
no so beth a recurring name that comes
42:59
up in
42:59
in your book the making of biblical
43:01
womanhood
43:02
is uh wayne grudem god bless him and
43:06
uh wayne grudem you know is responsible
43:08
for
43:09
the biblical manhood and womanhood with
43:11
john piper and he's also
43:12
in large part responsible for the esv
43:15
translation of the bible which a lot of
43:18
for sure reformed but a lot of people
43:19
who you know hold a
43:21
scare quote's high view of the
43:23
scriptures think that the esv is the
43:25
holy grail
43:26
of translations and you do a lot of
43:28
really good work
43:29
of unearthing some biases within both
43:32
the esv but also numerous
43:34
modern biblical english translations of
43:37
the scriptures
43:38
and talk about how maybe wayne grudem
43:40
and people like him
43:42
translators because of their
43:44
complementary biases
43:46
have kind of just changed some words in
43:48
the scriptures that make a
43:50
big big difference for example we talk
43:53
about the book of romans and how
43:55
paul says phoebe was a deacon and she's
43:58
not only a deacon but she's the one who
43:59
took the book of rome
44:00
the letter to the church of rome takes
44:02
it to them reads it out loud to them
44:04
that's a
44:04
that's a leader in authoritarian
44:06
position then
44:08
or so phoebe then in this in these
44:10
modern translations
44:11
is looked to as a servant or that word
44:13
deacon is turned into servant the only
44:15
time in the
44:16
new testament the word deacon in greek
44:18
is turned into the word servants
44:20
maybe some agenda there then you look at
44:22
junior who it says paul says in romans
44:24
16
44:25
junior is prominent among the apostles
44:27
right so she's an
44:28
all-star among the apostles junior it's
44:31
a woman
44:32
and then all of a sudden in the last i
44:34
don't know 40 years in these modern
44:36
translations all of a sudden junior
44:37
starts becoming junius
44:39
a man out of the blue go figure
44:42
tell us a little bit about the
44:44
translation problem that we find in
44:46
these modern translations that make it
44:47
so that nobody questions
44:49
whether or not there were women leaders
44:50
in the church because obviously there
44:52
wasn't because it was junius was a man
44:54
and phoebe was a servant so i think a
44:57
part of this today is americans
45:02
in western christianity we don't learn
45:04
other people's languages
45:06
so our understanding of how translation
45:09
works
45:10
is very limited if you really think
45:12
about it i mean we might all stumble
45:14
through our high school and college
45:16
classes and get some but very few of us
45:18
actually read
45:19
and can really read so i think that's
45:21
part of it is that we just don't
45:22
understand
45:23
we also have grown up with this idea
45:27
that english
45:28
is the you know everybody should learn
45:29
english because we have english
45:31
english is the most excellent language
45:34
and so
45:35
the bible you know it's like nobody it's
45:38
thinking that maybe english wasn't a
45:40
really great
45:40
language for translating the bible is i
45:43
think is also alien to many of us
45:45
um because all we've ever known and for
45:47
us the reformation
45:48
is this time of celebration where our we
45:51
believe
45:52
this is not true but we believe that
45:54
that's the first time that it became
45:56
available to ordinary people
45:58
in in the english language and so it's
46:00
something that should be celebrated
46:01
but what we don't realize is that the
46:03
english language itself
46:04
by the time that we get you know really
46:07
time of shakespeare moving forward the
46:09
english language itself has become very
46:11
gendered and it's become very gendered
46:13
towards men
46:14
this masculine masculinization of the
46:17
of the english language and so i mean if
46:19
you think about it in the english
46:21
language we don't have
46:22
there's no word the only thing we have
46:25
for both men and women like together are
46:27
like they
46:28
you know there's not a pronoun that we
46:29
can use that's really gender neutral
46:31
except for
46:32
you know saying they and so
46:35
what happened when the when these early
46:38
english translators
46:39
16th 17th century translators when they
46:42
translated the bible they translated it
46:44
using these
46:45
masculine nouns and pronouns they also
46:48
walked to the bible with this assumption
46:50
that men were in charge
46:52
and so they translated the leaders all
46:55
from this
46:55
masculine perspective and this is not
46:58
actually something that's in
47:00
in the greek the greek actually has
47:02
words that are gender inclusive
47:04
that's you know that mean brothers and
47:06
sisters that mean
47:08
men and women and all of these words get
47:11
translated as men
47:13
and gets translated as masculine
47:15
pronouns
47:16
and so some bibles some english bible
47:19
translations it's worse
47:20
than in others they have gotten
47:22
significantly since the 20th century
47:25
there has been many of the translations
47:28
that have come out in the 20th century
47:29
have become significantly more gendered
47:33
where women are really written out of
47:35
the text
47:36
you can see this the esv is a very
47:38
strong example of this
47:40
where even places that most early
47:42
translators would have agreed are
47:44
brothers and sisters
47:45
it gets translated or men and women it
47:48
gets translated
47:49
primarily from a masculine perspective
47:51
we see it's in the 19th century that
47:53
junia
47:54
really starts begins to be translated as
47:57
junious
47:58
we see this actually does start earlier
48:00
there are some folk
48:01
reformation martin luther is very famous
48:03
for this you know it's
48:04
essentially no a woman can't be an
48:06
apostle so therefore it's a man
48:09
and so but it's not common until really
48:12
it's the 19th century where we begin to
48:14
see this
48:14
push to translate her as junius and in
48:17
fact the esv i think it still does i
48:19
haven't looked at the most recent
48:20
version
48:21
but i think it still says junious and
48:23
then it has a footnote that says maybe
48:24
junia
48:25
but who looks at the footnotes the
48:27
problem with that is that
48:29
there is no you know if we look actually
48:32
at the
48:32
at the ancient the first century world
48:34
there's not men running around with the
48:36
name junius
48:37
but there are a whole lot of documented
48:39
juniors
48:40
so there's very little evidence at all
48:42
that this could even be a masculine name
48:44
so i didn't realize the the esv was a
48:47
direct response to the tniv
48:49
yep it is i i remember this because as i
48:52
said it happened at a time when there
48:54
were lots of things going on in my life
48:56
and it sort of embedded itself and part
48:58
of it too was because
48:59
not really even knowing and of this my
49:01
husband got me a tnip i like the niv i
49:03
grew up baptist i grew up reading the
49:05
niv and so he actually got me my first
49:07
gender inclusive language bible and i
49:09
didn't realize
49:10
and i remembered the fur about it all
49:12
the people who were like
49:13
oh my gosh you have a tniv and you know
49:16
i mean it was
49:17
really fascinating to me to see this and
49:20
then of course the esv
49:21
which comes out in 2002 it was created
49:24
as a direct response to reclaim the
49:27
bible
49:27
for its traditional emphasis on male
49:31
leadership
49:31
and as i said as a medievalist this just
49:34
cracked me up
49:36
as long as your tradition only goes back
49:37
like 100 years exactly
49:39
i was like i was like well you know that
49:41
certainly says something um
49:43
maybe let's kick it back to the 15th
49:44
century and let's see what they do there
49:47
and you know gender inclusive language
49:50
yep you you say in it's the chapter
49:54
writing woman out of the english bible
49:56
which is what we're talking about you
49:57
say piper and grudem accuse the
49:58
translators of the tniv
50:00
of intentionally quote obscuring
50:02
biblical texts to make it more gender
50:03
inclusive
50:04
and i know there's the reformed person
50:06
who listens to this
50:08
who's going to write the a bad review
50:09
just because of this so go for it i'm
50:11
going to give you some ammunition right
50:12
now but
50:13
i want to say so what and i want to also
50:17
say
50:17
praise the lord that someone's trying to
50:20
take our faith back to its roots into
50:21
the gender inclusive roots that we have
50:23
like if if somebody said oh man we're
50:26
going
50:26
we're getting too gender inclusive i
50:29
don't want anything to do with that
50:30
faith
50:31
to be honest with you you know this is
50:34
actually really a crazy argument to me
50:36
and i never really
50:37
what was funny to me about it is that
50:39
the argument i'm thinking about the
50:40
world magazine articles which are just
50:42
really really enlightening i encourage
50:45
everybody to go look them up and read
50:46
them
50:47
but their response was is that this
50:50
this is what's crazy to me is that they
50:52
argue that this is a response to the
50:54
feminist
50:54
movement which is trying to eradicate
50:57
differences between men and women
50:59
yet they're arguing that the way to
51:00
combat this feminist movement that's
51:02
trying to eradicate differences between
51:04
men and women
51:05
is by instead of having men and women
51:08
specified
51:08
in the text and gender inclusive we're
51:10
going to eradicate it and make it all
51:12
masculine
51:13
and that i mean i'm just like the logic
51:15
behind that
51:16
is crazy unless your goal
51:19
is actually not to emphasize the
51:22
differences between men and women but to
51:24
emphasize the power
51:25
of the man and that i think is what
51:28
actually is behind the esv
51:31
so i'm going to ask you two questions
51:32
these are strong ones now okay
51:34
offend some people and possibly some
51:36
friends of yours you can
51:37
plead the fifth if you want but you say
51:40
this in your book and i completely agree
51:41
with you over and over again
51:43
it seems like the view of biblical
51:44
inerrancy is at the root of the problem
51:46
to me
51:47
as you read it biblical inerrancy if you
51:50
see the bible as inerrant you find
51:52
yourself having to justify treating
51:54
everyone besides
51:55
males and in our world white males in an
51:58
antiquated and
51:58
oppressive way if we can just be honest
52:01
right
52:02
it wasn't that long ago that inheritance
52:04
were were arguing for a biblically
52:06
endorsed form of slavery it wasn't that
52:08
long ago
52:08
nope not because of the bible so would
52:10
you agree that an
52:12
an inheritance view of the bible forces
52:15
christians to hold oppressive
52:16
unloving and dishonoring views towards
52:18
the human family is that going too far
52:20
so i think you know inerrancy is such a
52:24
loaded word
52:25
and i actually think it's part i mean
52:27
this is also funny to me for people who
52:29
hang our hats
52:30
on the bible the bible alone why do we
52:33
hang our hats
52:34
on an interpretation of the bible called
52:36
inerrancy
52:37
and aaron sees not in the bible it's not
52:39
it's nothing that the bible actually
52:41
claims
52:42
there is not i mean you know god says
52:43
that his word is
52:45
fully trustworthy and that it leads to
52:48
salvation
52:49
which it does but there's nothing in it
52:51
that says
52:52
inerrancy that you have to believe it
52:54
the way that i believe it
52:56
in order to be christian and that's what
52:58
inerrancy does today it's
52:59
you know barry hinkins who's he's a
53:01
friend of mine at baylor he's also a
53:03
really good 20th century scholar
53:05
and he has this great book called uneasy
53:07
in babylon that i would recommend if
53:09
anybody wants to know sort of all of
53:10
this and he talks about
53:11
you know that inerrancy really has a lot
53:13
of different meanings
53:14
but what it came to mean in the 20th
53:17
century
53:18
is that you have to believe that the
53:20
bible is interpreted
53:22
through the lens of these
53:24
fundamentalists
53:25
you know these people arguing this these
53:28
fundamentalists
53:29
and that this you know that it is
53:31
completely without error
53:33
which you know as i said the bible never
53:35
i mean never says this
53:37
it's it's crazy to me but completely
53:39
without error
53:40
in every sense of the word incl you know
53:42
including science
53:44
all of these things and that the way
53:45
that they interpret error
53:47
or not is by how they read the bible
53:50
so if you don't read the bible the way
53:52
they read it then you
53:53
are not an inerrantist and you're
53:55
outside of christian orthodoxy
53:57
reading it that way with that very rigid
54:00
lens
54:01
that makes it very that creates a very
54:03
fragile faith
54:05
yes is oppressive and harms people
54:08
i can speak of this of somebody who
54:10
served in the trenches and youth
54:12
ministry for 20 years
54:13
and the kids that were most likely to
54:16
lose their faith in college
54:18
were the ones whose faith was most
54:20
fragile
54:21
because they believed that if they
54:22
didn't literally believe
54:24
the first three chapters or seven
54:26
chapters of genesis that if there was
54:28
any evidence that
54:29
countered that you know that they saw
54:31
that might shake that
54:33
that that meant nothing else in the
54:34
bible was true
54:36
and that to me was always terrifying
54:38
when i watched those kids
54:40
because i knew i mean their face
54:43
faith was so fragile and it wasn't
54:46
it wasn't going to make it out of their
54:49
parents household
54:50
because you know that that's not the
54:52
gospel
54:54
that's what we have added to the gospel
54:57
yep
54:58
so i'm going to ask you a similar
54:59
question beth and this is about again
55:00
evangelicals and if you're a good
55:02
evangelical listen listening to this
55:04
i hope you don't fit into this 52
55:06
percent here i hope that's not you i
55:07
hope that you're
55:08
you're better than that but you cite the
55:10
barna research group which is a very
55:12
reputable
55:13
research group as saying that
55:15
evangelicals are the most
55:17
quote most hesitant group in america in
55:19
supporting women's work outside of the
55:21
home
55:22
that's saying a lot women evangelicals
55:25
are the most
55:26
hesitant group in america in supporting
55:28
women's work outside the home
55:29
only 52 percent of evangelicals are
55:32
comfortable with the future possibility
55:33
of more women
55:34
than men in the workforce which is a
55:36
full 20
55:37
lower than the general american
55:39
population i mean that's shocking
55:42
it is so here's my question in light of
55:43
all of this
55:45
are is evangelicalism going to have a
55:47
problem that
55:48
evangelicals might be seen as a fringe
55:50
religious group that endorses oppression
55:52
and other
55:53
like other fundamentalist religious
55:54
groups in the world that we can think of
55:57
whether it's fundamentalist islam and
55:59
that we look down upon
56:01
so so strongly could and this is your
56:04
you're identifying as the evangelical
56:06
beth
56:07
could evangelicalism be headed that way
56:09
as a fringe group that supports
56:10
oppression
56:11
yes i definitely think that i think that
56:15
that is if we look at the newspaper
56:18
accounts
56:18
over just the past you know the we think
56:20
about the houston chronicle
56:22
with the southern baptist you know more
56:24
than 700
56:25
i mean abused sexual abuse cases i mean
56:27
that's just horrific
56:29
if and i'm sure there's more you think
56:31
about ravi
56:32
zacharias i mean i mean
56:36
horrible we can't i don't even want to
56:37
read some of those stories and i'm a
56:39
historian
56:40
because they're just so demeaning to
56:42
women and women of
56:44
color so and and
56:47
clearly this is one of the things that i
56:48
love about christian kobez dumas book
56:50
is that it pulls away there is no
56:54
you cannot argue any longer that there
56:56
is not a connection
56:58
between complementarian theology and the
57:02
oppression
57:02
and abuse of women you cannot argue that
57:06
you know i mean i'm thinking about john
57:07
piper went on and had that very
57:10
vigorous sort of that you went on
57:12
youtube i mean not well it went on
57:13
twitter but
57:14
he put it on youtube and where he
57:17
defended where he said
57:18
complementarianism doesn't lead to this
57:20
it's just sin that leads to this and
57:22
he's like well
57:23
yes it is sin that leads to this but it
57:25
is sin that is enabled
57:27
by this particular theology that says
57:29
that some humans
57:30
simply because of the way they are born
57:32
are better than other humans it's
57:34
amazing how sin flourishes easier in
57:36
some contexts than others isn't it
57:38
exactly i mean it enables that and and
57:41
so we're seeing the fruit of that
57:42
and so i think this is also what we're
57:44
seeing like with the backlash like you
57:46
know as i said i'm in a
57:47
i like the imaginary version of
57:48
evangelicalism but if you actually look
57:50
at my husband and i
57:52
you know i think we clearly are not
57:55
identifying
57:56
with the svc with these independent
57:59
baptist
58:00
churches with these with the cbmw
58:03
we're not identifying with any of these
58:05
complementarians and we just watched
58:07
beth moore walk away
58:08
and i mean i think this says yes this
58:11
type of evangelicalism
58:13
is going i think may go the way of
58:16
fringe groups because
58:17
everyone's going to jump ship because
58:20
we're realizing these that this has
58:22
nothing to do with jesus and has more to
58:24
do with power
58:26
yeah yeah yeah we were both wondering at
58:29
the end of this
58:30
knowing that you still identify at least
58:31
in the book
58:33
as proudly baptist yeah
58:36
so over and over in the book you tell
58:38
heartbreaking stories
58:40
like soul-crushing stories about things
58:43
that have happened to you things that
58:44
have happened to your family harms that
58:46
were done to
58:47
the students under your care who didn't
58:49
get to hear from you didn't get you know
58:51
the benefit of your wisdom when they
58:52
should have
58:53
there are many reasons to leave
58:55
oppressive
58:56
structures we could list some right not
58:59
just the harm to yourself
59:01
and to other marginalized groups but
59:04
staying in these structures tends to
59:05
prop them up
59:06
we recently spoke with scott mcknight
59:08
about culture
59:09
and the influence of culture on personal
59:11
formation and how you tend to become
59:13
more like the culture you're a part of
59:14
so this is like threatening to your
59:16
virtue
59:17
to stay all sorts of reasons to leave
59:20
right why do you stay
59:23
yeah so i don't i didn't
59:26
completely stay because we did walk out
59:30
of um we did walk out of the
59:32
complementarian
59:34
part i mean that's one of the things and
59:36
you know part of my story i sort of
59:38
i sort of weaved this end because i i
59:40
try to
59:41
i'm talking about real people and so i'm
59:44
not trying
59:44
i'm not trying to call out real people
59:47
i'm trying to call out a system
59:49
and something that we need to change
59:51
during our whole journey we weren't
59:52
entirely in baptist churches
59:54
we kind of we went from baptist to a
59:56
non-denominational back to a baptist
59:59
and so there was sort of this movement
60:02
in
60:02
our in our ministry and what we found
60:05
what we have done now
60:06
is we have walked out we identify with
60:09
in texas it's called the baptist general
60:10
convention of texas
60:12
which supports women in ministry and
60:15
actually supports what you might
60:16
consider to be a more progressive
60:18
understanding of the bible you know
60:20
there's there's on both spectrums of the
60:22
bgct there are some who are probably
60:24
still
60:24
more conservative and there would be
60:26
some who are more reluctant about
60:27
women's
60:28
roles and then there are also some who
60:29
would be is very progressive
60:32
what we would with the cooperative
60:33
baptist fellowship and so
60:35
the thing is that baptist is a spectrum
60:37
what i love about being a baptist
60:40
is that it's not it's not creedal i mean
60:42
that's the sort of it's one of the funny
60:44
things to me about some of these
60:45
southern baptist churches that have
60:46
become really reformed
60:48
is that they start having creeds that
60:50
people sign and i'm like
60:51
you're not baptist baptists don't sign
60:54
things
60:54
uh you know people i work at a baptist
60:56
institution and people are like oh did
60:58
you have to sign a statement of faith
61:00
and i'm like
61:01
no i'm baptist it was like we don't
61:04
sign things uh so it's sort of funny so
61:07
i think within the baptist tradition
61:09
there actually is a lot
61:10
of room and i think
61:13
by walking away from the sbc
61:16
i mean that is actually saying we will
61:18
not stay in and that's what beth moore
61:19
just did and i am just
61:21
so amazed and so in awe that she
61:25
did this but i mean what she said is she
61:27
said i will not stay in a denomination
61:29
that holds on
61:30
to these oppressive pieces of our past
61:34
and that's not jesus and i would i align
61:36
with her
61:37
and so if the system that we were in now
61:40
if
61:40
it kept aligning if we were forced
61:44
to um to be aligned with some of these
61:46
more oppressive structures then i
61:48
we would we would have to reconsider
61:51
that
61:51
too but one as i said one of the
61:53
wonderful things about being baptist is
61:54
you can still stay
61:55
baptist and still be on there's a wide
61:59
spread
61:59
spectrum of room on on being baptist and
62:02
so
62:03
i think that's one of the things that
62:04
attracts that attracts me to it
62:07
and also the fact that you know it's
62:09
it's where it's where my heart is i
62:11
really
62:12
understand beth moore it's it's where i
62:14
grew up it's where i became a christian
62:16
it's where i went to church with my
62:18
grandparents
62:19
you know this is part of who i am and
62:22
jesus is there it's just we've tried to
62:25
bury him
62:26
and so i'm all about resurrection so i
62:29
think we can resurrect
62:31
so i you know i'm always half full
62:33
person
62:34
despite the things that have happened to
62:35
us and so i'm like let's just
62:37
let's resurrect this broken system
62:40
because that's what jesus does he brings
62:42
the dead back to life
62:44
yep you're an enneagram eight
62:48
i don't know all of my students will be
62:50
happy to know that because they keep
62:52
wanting to make me
62:53
something that's fantastic i don't know
62:55
what that means but i find
62:57
that very hopeful and i have very little
62:59
hope for any aspect of the evangelical
63:01
church these days
63:02
particularly the baptists here's the
63:04
bible here's the baptist cheers yeah
63:06
yeah yeah now now i've made you think a
63:09
little more differently about baptists
63:11
but you know i'm also a historian so you
63:13
know historically
63:14
i like what baptists have stood for
63:17
although i will tell you i made a bunch
63:18
of baptists mad with an article i wrote
63:20
where i argued that catholic women had
63:23
more freedom than early baptist women
63:25
and i got i got a whole lot of emails
63:26
from a lot of upset baptists
63:28
good good well you're talking to a
63:30
couple guys who our favorite kind of
63:31
baptist are anabaptists so
63:33
but we won't go into that yeah um
63:36
yeah do we want to end it here kyle or
63:37
do you want to ask i don't know
63:39
we're doing we've actually kind of sped
63:41
through our outline which is kind of
63:43
amazing would it be okay if you nerded
63:45
out with me about the trinity for a
63:46
minute
63:48
sure and then we can call it call it a
63:50
day before i do that i do want to say
63:52
we're a pastor and a philosopher walking
63:54
to a bar so alcohol is a major theme of
63:56
our podcast
63:57
and it really hurt my heart when you
63:59
talked about how medieval women were
64:01
pushed out of
64:01
the brewing really yes so okay i have a
64:04
funny story for you
64:05
you know i am baptist but i'm also a
64:07
medieval historian
64:09
and we don't have as many hang-ups
64:12
about you know some of those old baptist
64:14
things we don't carry those
64:16
so i my advisor at chapel hill
64:19
worked a lot on brewing women and so i
64:22
actually learned a whole lot about
64:23
medieval
64:24
brewing and even how they did it and all
64:27
sorts of things so i had when i first
64:28
started teaching i had a class
64:30
that i would talk about medieval brewing
64:32
and i would bring to
64:33
my students loved my lecture on beer it
64:35
was my beer i had two days and we talked
64:37
about beer
64:38
they loved it and i brought
64:42
recipes to them on how to make medieval
64:44
beer
64:45
and you know i didn't really think about
64:47
it about
64:49
four or five weeks after one of those
64:50
lectures i had a kid show up at my
64:52
office
64:53
with the thermos and he
64:56
and his roommates had made beer for one
64:59
of the medieval recipes in their bathtub
65:02
how was it how was it you can he
65:05
declined
65:06
you declined oh my gosh i have never
65:10
i i took the specifications out of the
65:13
recipes that i
65:14
handed out after that point so that it
65:16
would it would take more effort to
65:18
actually
65:19
do it so anyway i want some ladies who
65:21
are listening right now to our podcast
65:23
who love beer
65:24
and love jesus to start a podcast called
65:26
the alewives i just want that to happen
65:28
oh
65:28
yeah that's so good that would be
65:30
actually
65:31
really good that would be really funny
65:33
wow absolutely we need to post pandemic
65:35
have you on again
65:36
just to talk about beer and maybe we'll
65:38
get yesterday i have to pull out that
65:40
lecture i haven't taught that in a long
65:42
time but i still have it
65:43
that would be i'm not even kidding that
65:45
would be an amazing special episode
65:49
okay okay so question about the trinity
65:52
so you you make the case in the book
65:54
that complementarianism is
65:56
shockingly unorthodox and you actually
65:59
call it
66:00
aryanism yeah so
66:03
first of all i want you to explain that
66:04
but also are there any complementarians
66:06
that you're aware of who openly own the
66:08
label
66:09
arianism or openly own the fact that
66:11
their eternal subordination view is at
66:13
least heterodox
66:15
so that's part of it but also couldn't
66:18
it be easily enough avoided
66:20
for the complementarian couldn't they
66:22
say something like
66:24
look the son is begotten by the father
66:28
and the son plays his role in processing
66:30
the spirit
66:31
but the son is still co-eternal with the
66:34
father
66:35
consubstantial with the father so we
66:38
avoid the aryanism thing
66:39
but nonetheless subordinate enroll
66:41
that's what i remember elizabeth elliott
66:43
arguing for example
66:44
that seems like an easy enough way to
66:46
avoid the arianism thing
66:48
but you quote somebody in the book as
66:50
saying and this was shocking to me
66:52
a complementarian document that actually
66:54
said
66:55
that the sun is subordinate not only in
66:57
economy but in essence
66:59
yep like what is that that's not
67:02
christian
67:03
that's not christian i'm not an orthodox
67:05
person i don't care at all about
67:06
orthodoxy or trinitarianism but that is
67:09
shocking
67:10
that is not christian i mean it's it is
67:13
it's very shocking
67:14
so okay so let me see which part of your
67:16
question to answer first
67:17
contextualize it for us beth what is
67:20
arianism
67:21
and what is the that root of the
67:23
internal subordination of the sun okay
67:24
so arianism
67:26
arose in the 3rd century and i always
67:28
tell my students the story that it arose
67:30
with a priest in alexandria
67:32
who um begin to convert the sailors when
67:35
they would come to the shore essentially
67:37
by inventing one of the world's first
67:38
jingles
67:39
and there was a time when the sun was
67:41
not is what his little phrase was and
67:44
what he argued is that jesus was a
67:46
created being
67:47
and that jesus was under the authority
67:48
of god the father because jesus was
67:51
created by god the father and so
67:54
essentially what he argued was
67:56
for two gods and this is what got
67:58
everybody upset
67:59
now the thing about arianism is that it
68:01
actually
68:02
caught on because people it made more
68:06
sense than a triune god
68:07
you know people understand hierarchy
68:09
people in the ancient world weren't as
68:11
afraid of polygamy
68:12
i mean i'm yeah you know of um so
68:16
um polytheism i don't know i said
68:18
polygamy but there you go
68:20
you can put that up there with cemetery
68:22
too
68:24
um but anyway so they weren't afraid of
68:27
they weren't as afraid of multiple gods
68:28
so
68:29
it caught on and and really what it came
68:32
down to
68:33
is that if jesus only died on the cross
68:37
because jesus was told by his father who
68:40
was above him in authority and so jesus
68:42
is only obeying
68:44
then what that means is that that
68:46
salvation
68:47
is contingent upon god it's because god
68:51
came and you know gave himself
68:54
up for us that willingness is actually
68:58
what
68:58
brings about salvation opens the door
69:01
for salvation so if
69:03
jesus wasn't actually a willing
69:05
participant in this but was just simply
69:07
being obedient
69:08
completely to this father's will it
69:11
brings salvation into question and so
69:14
this is actually
69:15
what's going on and so everybody got
69:17
very upset
69:18
and they declared they enantiomized they
69:21
said anybody who believes this is
69:22
heretical
69:24
it keeps popping up a little bit
69:25
throughout church history every time it
69:26
pops up
69:27
everybody's like no that's not christian
69:30
it is heretical that's two gods not one
69:32
god
69:33
and then we see it popping up again in
69:35
the 20th century
69:37
and the reason it popped up in the 20th
69:39
century was because
69:40
i really think they were getting
69:42
desperate about gender i mean if you
69:44
look and see what's happening this is
69:45
something too that we've really
69:47
stamped down in evangelical churches
69:50
nobody knows that there were actually a
69:51
lot of women preaching
69:52
in the 60s and the 70s and that we had
69:55
women getting ordained
69:56
if you look outside the white church and
69:59
you look at the black church
70:02
you know i mean it completely changes
70:03
the landscape go read anthea butler
70:06
go re you know go read daughters of
70:07
thunder um i mean so
70:09
there are women preaching and there are
70:12
women leading
70:13
churches so i think in the 60s and 70s
70:16
with the conservative resurgence where
70:17
they're really trying to
70:19
and part of this is connected to world
70:20
war ii where women
70:22
were in men's jobs and so everybody
70:25
tries to like push women out of men's
70:26
jobs so that men
70:27
can psychologically be okay after this
70:29
really hard war
70:31
so we see this sort of concerted effort
70:35
to push women out of places
70:38
and this eternal subordination of the
70:41
sun
70:43
became a way to really push women out
70:47
you know the reason that i think one of
70:50
the things that egalitarians had been
70:51
arguing for a long time
70:53
and i mean we can see this in women's
70:55
writings uh you know in the 19th century
70:58
for for one example is they argued that
71:00
the gender hierarchy was a result of the
71:02
fall that patriarchy was a result of the
71:04
fall
71:05
that that was when when eve was cursed
71:08
with your
71:08
desire will be for your husband and he
71:10
will rule over you not because god
71:12
wanted it that way
71:13
but because of the fall this is now
71:15
what's going to happen is this
71:16
implementation of patriarchy
71:18
so that means that patriarchy is sin
71:21
it's part of the sinful world
71:22
so what the complementarians needed to
71:24
do was push it outside of that
71:27
and so by embedding complementarianism
71:30
into the trinity it makes it now not
71:34
not a result of the fall but actually a
71:37
part of the created order
71:40
so that is why they need it that is why
71:42
i think
71:43
wayne grudem was going to fight for it
71:46
for as long as he could
71:48
because it makes it makes
71:50
complementarianism gospel truth for the
71:52
title of my uh
71:54
my book so is that helpful yeah yeah
71:57
i mean it's easy to subjugate women if
72:00
the sun is subjugated and within the
72:02
exactly
72:02
yeah that's just the way it is yeah and
72:04
it's it's just a plain old heresy
72:06
ethanasius would be screaming and pop
72:09
pounding on tables if he heard what
72:11
these good old boys are saying today
72:13
there are so many
72:14
church um leaders who would be screaming
72:17
and pounding on the table if they knew
72:18
what they were saying
72:19
to be fair aries probably wouldn't love
72:21
it either
72:23
no it's actually different from you know
72:25
arianism
72:26
uh in the way and that's what some
72:27
people argue they're like it's not
72:28
arianism because it's not it you know
72:30
it's not exactly the same
72:32
it's like it's subordination of the sun
72:34
that is what the heresy is
72:36
um you know whether or not because
72:38
complementarians don't argue that
72:40
god created jesus they just argue that
72:42
jesus is supporting it
72:44
but it's simple it's essentially the
72:46
same thing
72:48
well thanks for nerding out with me
72:49
there i appreciate it yeah i hope that
72:51
was enough for you
72:52
oh i could go for hours but that's
72:54
probably enough for our listeners
72:56
yeah well so beth allison barr
72:59
the making of biblical womanhood this
73:01
book is incredible and everyone in the
73:03
church needs to read it it's one of
73:04
those i think we're at a reckoning
73:05
moment we've had
73:06
so many books within the last year
73:08
whether it's jesus and john wayne or a
73:10
church called toe over now
73:11
the making of biblical womanhood that is
73:14
i think
73:15
this breaking point where we're going to
73:17
find people saying i can't do this
73:19
anymore
73:20
i've i've i'm discovering what's under
73:22
the hood
73:23
and i don't want to align myself with it
73:24
and i think this book falls in line with
73:26
it and it's an important book
73:27
thank you for having the courage to
73:29
write it and we're excited to just see
73:30
what happens beth
73:31
thank you for having me
73:34
[Music]
73:36
as i've been reading this book the
73:38
making of biblical womanhood i've had
73:39
this
73:40
conversation with my wife sitting at the
73:42
table we were talking about
73:43
the way christians treat minority groups
73:46
let's say
73:46
and in particular we were talking about
73:48
the lgbtq community here
73:50
and my wife just said why do
73:52
non-christians get to be more loving
73:54
than christians
73:57
and that was it and it's just a question
74:00
that i've had in my head
74:02
since then for about a month and as i
74:04
read the making of biblical womanhood it
74:06
makes me ask the question
74:08
why are non-christians more loving than
74:11
christians
74:12
that's a problem so i want to go into
74:14
this a little bit more i'm going to do
74:15
that on our patreon so if you're
74:17
interested in that idea of why
74:19
do non-christians get to be more loving
74:20
than christians
74:22
subscribe to our patreon and you'll get
74:24
to hear me go on a little bit about that
74:30
thanks for spending this time with us we
74:32
really hope that you're enjoying these
74:33
conversations as much as we are
74:35
and if you are help us get the word out
74:38
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74:39
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74:41
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74:42
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74:44
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74:45
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74:47
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74:49
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74:49
you can also find us over on patreon at
74:51
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74:53
a pastor and a philosopher thanks again
74:55
for listening
74:56
until next time this has been a pastor
74:58
and a philosopher
74:59
walk into a bar
75:12
[Music]