In this bonus episode, we share an Ash Wednesday gift with you. Mark Werner is Randy's Spiritual Director, and is well acquainted with contemplative spirituality and is a bit of an expert in the ways of the Enneagram. In this episode, Mark shares about his "dark night of the soul" and having a faith crisis while in pastoral ministry, and the more ancient practices that brought him into a more spacious and centered faith journey.
Also, we finish our time together by having Mark lead us in some contemplative and centering prayer. You're welcome.
The beer featured in this episode is the Tropical Slush by the always fantastic Eagle Park Brewing Company.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
In this bonus episode, we share an Ash Wednesday gift with you. Mark Werner is Randy's Spiritual Director, and is well acquainted with contemplative spirituality and is a bit of an expert in the ways of the Enneagram. In this episode, Mark shares about his "dark night of the soul" and having a faith crisis while in pastoral ministry, and the more ancient practices that brought him into a more spacious and centered faith journey.
Also, we finish our time together by having Mark lead us in some contemplative and centering prayer. You're welcome.
The beer featured in this episode is the Tropical Slush by the always fantastic Eagle Park Brewing Company.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
00:00
hi friends this episode is a bit special
00:03
it's one of the first episodes we
00:05
recorded back when we were still getting
00:06
our bearings
00:07
and we've been waiting for the right
00:08
moment to release it ash wednesday seems
00:11
like that moment
00:13
we talk with mark werner who is randy's
00:15
spiritual director
00:16
i guess you could say he's kind of a
00:18
pastor to our pastor
00:20
mark guides us through a tour of
00:21
contemplative spirituality
00:23
spiritual direction and even leads us in
00:25
a meditative centering practice
00:28
we touch on several other topics as well
00:30
including the enneagram
00:32
experience in god and the christian's
00:34
relationship to power
00:36
we're breaking our normal bi-weekly
00:38
schedule to get this to you as we begin
00:40
lent
00:40
because we think it can minister to you
00:42
the way mark ministered to us
00:44
that night last summer we'll return to
00:47
our normal schedule next week
00:49
thanks for listening
00:55
welcome to a pastor and philosopher walk
00:57
into a bar
00:58
the podcast where we mix a sometimes
01:00
weird but always delicious cocktail of
01:02
theology
01:03
philosophy and spirituality
01:07
we're so excited you joined us today for
01:09
this episode of a pastor and philosopher
01:11
walk into a bar
01:13
today we are going to take a walk down
01:15
the road of
01:16
contemplative spirituality that's a
01:20
spiritual journey that too few of us
01:22
take and i'm excited to share a guest
01:24
with you but before we get into that
01:26
kyle what are we drinking well today i
01:29
have another
01:30
treat for you guys so this is another
01:32
instantiation of the eagle park
01:34
brewing company slushy series
01:37
what a treat for the i know for the uh
01:40
the beer snobs in the audience you
01:42
either hate these things or you love
01:43
them
01:44
so this one is called tropical slush
01:47
it is a mixture of mango passion fruit
01:51
and pineapple and this is another one of
01:53
those that has so much fruit in it you
01:55
have to roll it so we're going to roll
01:56
our cans before we open them here
01:58
rolling as we speak off the top of your
02:01
desk there
02:02
i never thought i'd see the day where i
02:04
rolled my damn beer
02:08
but here i am yeah only only for these
02:10
flushes is that actually
02:12
important so this one is going to pour a
02:14
little bit thinner
02:15
than the one we had before it's going to
02:18
be lighter in color so you see a nice
02:21
golden kind of mango color ellie it's
02:23
spilling all over the studio here
02:25
it looks like a wheat ale it does it
02:27
looks like a weed or a sour
02:29
yeah so it is a sour base sour ale which
02:32
most of these slushies are they're
02:33
usually some kind of berliner vice or
02:35
sour or something like that
02:36
then with thousands of pounds of fruit
02:38
just dumped in
02:40
so that's what we're getting here all
02:42
right we'd love to hear from any
02:43
listeners who are slushy fans
02:45
i i'll bet there's like four out there
02:48
it's more than you think i won't name
02:51
any names but there there are several
02:52
breweries who specialize in this style
02:55
that uh their beers sell for shocking
02:58
amounts of money on the secondary beer
02:59
market not that i would know anything
03:01
about the secondary beer market because
03:03
that's not legal
03:04
um but i've heard stories all right so
03:07
these
03:07
these uh slushie beers tend to be lower
03:10
abv often they don't even put it on the
03:11
can so this one doesn't even have the
03:12
abv on the can
03:14
uh but usually less than eight percent
03:16
and sometimes as low as four or five
03:17
percent
03:18
but i'm not certain about this one this
03:21
is something that people that don't like
03:22
beer
03:23
really might still enjoy so you could
03:25
easily get a four pack and give some to
03:27
your spouse who
03:28
isn't into beer and they'll probably
03:29
like it well
03:31
eagle park you rocked it this is
03:34
delicious tropical slush
03:35
i highly highly recommend it i'll be
03:37
getting some our gentleman post
03:43
well friends i'm so excited to introduce
03:45
to you a person who has become
03:48
really just a beautiful part of my life
03:50
he is my spiritual director
03:51
has been for about the last year and
03:54
mark is
03:54
a brilliant brilliant person and trusted
03:57
friends so mark warner
03:58
welcome to a pastor and a philosopher
04:00
walking to a bar
04:02
i like i like the title and i'm glad to
04:04
be here mark can you just tell us
04:06
maybe your role right now first of all
04:09
my role
04:10
is that i seek to accompany or companion
04:13
with those who are in ministry
04:15
particularly in the role of spiritual
04:18
direction
04:19
been doing that for about seven years
04:21
now brilliant
04:23
and can you tell us a bit about your
04:26
journey what
04:26
where were you vocationally where you
04:29
start
04:29
and how did you get into being a
04:32
spiritual director for people in
04:33
ministry
04:34
yeah i've been in ministry 36 years
04:38
uh 11 of those years we're on staff with
04:41
crew
04:42
and then 21 years as a pastor in a local
04:46
church here in the area
04:47
in the in the last few years in my role
04:50
within grace bridge alliance as
04:52
spiritual director
04:54
what led me into the vocation that i am
04:56
in right now
04:58
was actually a a prolonged period of
05:01
spiritual
05:02
dryness or as as some
05:05
refer to it now as as a dark night
05:08
a dark night of the soul where i'm
05:10
crying out to god wondering if god is
05:12
even
05:13
there because that level of dryness for
05:16
me
05:17
i i was no longer experiencing god as i
05:19
as i thought i had in the past
05:22
can i interrupt you quick mark how long
05:24
did that last that season of that dark
05:25
night of the soul
05:26
dryness yeah i think uh about from
05:29
from my early 40s until uh
05:32
my about 47 48 so a period about seven
05:37
years of
05:38
of struggling to do the things that i
05:41
felt called to but doing it from
05:44
what for me felt like a very dry or an
05:47
even even empty place
05:48
at times and and that's the hard
05:52
part about sometimes when you are in
05:54
ministry
05:55
is you're called to function in a way
05:58
that gives
05:59
spiritually even at a time when you may
06:02
not be
06:03
terribly filled spiritually and so you
06:06
rely upon things
06:07
borrowed you rely upon things from the
06:10
past
06:11
and you try to present them as new but
06:14
you
06:15
know internally that this isn't taking
06:18
you to the same place and so
06:22
in that time what began to mark my life
06:25
is that i
06:26
i was feeling fraudulent it's like
06:29
i'm i'm trying to say here's how to walk
06:32
with god
06:33
and yet i know it was taking me only so
06:35
far and
06:36
there's not there was nothing more i
06:38
could point people to
06:39
and where i was i didn't think was
06:42
necessarily that attractive but it's all
06:45
i had to offer
06:46
so that was that was for me a really
06:48
disorienting time
06:50
so what was the the bump in the road
06:52
that
06:53
brought you down that new direction what
06:54
was that spark yeah so so
06:56
uh there was a couple things so i looked
06:59
at
06:59
myself in ministry and and didn't feel
07:02
terribly
07:03
successful i looked at my marriage and i
07:06
didn't feel
07:07
like i had the most the perfect marriage
07:11
i looked at my children i have four
07:13
children
07:14
my oldest at the time was going off to
07:16
college
07:17
i didn't feel like a terribly good dad
07:19
and so i guess what i'm saying is
07:21
is the bump in the road is in all those
07:24
things that i had marked myself
07:27
and a lot of my sense of identity
07:31
marriage work parenting i felt
07:34
very much almost like i would say a
07:36
failure and i was
07:37
i felt like a failure and so i remember
07:40
my son at the time
07:41
was about seven or eight and i was
07:44
at his bedside in and i'm praying with
07:47
him as i did with all my children
07:50
and in the middle of my prayer i
07:52
internally i'm saying
07:54
why are you even praying right now
07:57
you know you're it's it's like my
07:59
prayers were bouncing off the ceiling
08:00
and just coming right back on top of me
08:03
and i uh i knew something had to change
08:08
and i knew i couldn't continue
08:11
in what for me felt that i'm not being a
08:14
person of integrity
08:16
and so the sense of failure and then
08:20
asking for a week off of work to
08:23
to get a loan and i i asked for a cabin
08:26
in
08:26
in rhinelander wisconsin and i went up
08:29
to that cabin
08:30
not knowing if i was going to come back
08:32
staying in ministry
08:34
or or just kind of relinquishing it all
08:36
and just say
08:37
i have to find something else to do and
08:40
so the the long and short of that
08:42
i won't go into all the details is uh i
08:45
can't say god met me in a powerful way
08:47
but god met me in a real way
08:49
and where i was questioning do i even
08:52
have
08:53
faith what i sensed both affirmed from
08:56
god
08:57
is that faith is all that i've ever had
09:01
and all the other stuff was really
09:04
secondary or tertiary
09:07
can can we dig into that just a little
09:08
bit what do you mean by
09:10
the claim that faith is all that you
09:12
ever had
09:14
yeah i think i equated faith
09:17
by by look at what i do
09:20
okay look at my achievements looks look
09:23
at the identifiable markers the the
09:25
roles i have
09:27
and i used to tell people you know
09:29
follow me as i'm following christ look
09:31
just like me and yet
09:33
uh i felt like all those things that i
09:36
pointed to
09:37
were not what was most important about
09:39
me
09:40
what was most important about me was
09:43
this this place
09:44
of faith of trust as
09:48
i want to say as weak as it was it was
09:51
something that i
09:52
i couldn't let go of and that's all that
09:55
seemed to
09:56
to me to really matter is that
09:59
there was a a call to trust or a desire
10:03
not even
10:04
a call that sounds too religious a
10:06
desire to trust
10:07
in the midst of what for me was uh
10:11
uncertainty and so
10:14
for me faith was not going to be now
10:16
tied to i'm a pastor
10:18
i'm a christian dad it was going to be
10:20
tied to this
10:22
this place of of me and you god
10:25
whether i ever experience in you again
10:27
god
10:28
this for me is the call of faith for me
10:31
does that make sense
10:33
yeah a lot so would you say that
10:37
your faith after this experience or
10:39
after this realization that you had
10:41
in the cabin would you say your faith
10:43
experience changed
10:45
after that or would you would you and i
10:47
guess a related question
10:49
would you see it as a continuation of
10:51
the same faith before that you're just
10:53
more aware of or would you see it as a
10:54
kind of discontinuous thing where your
10:56
faith took on a totally different nature
10:58
does that make sense yeah i don't yeah i
11:00
don't think it's it can ever be
11:02
discontinuous i think it's always
11:04
whatever it is
11:06
it's something that marks how you
11:08
understood it at that time in
11:09
in your life and so for me when i say
11:13
faith for the first time i was able to
11:16
hold on to or at least embrace that i
11:19
don't have to be certain on everything
11:21
and that i don't have to be perfect on
11:24
everything
11:24
that i can live with mystery and
11:28
really it's actually in not being
11:31
certain
11:32
that that faith is understood
11:35
it's like the to use the the
11:38
the relationship that we have with our
11:40
spouses it's in the absence of our
11:42
spouse
11:43
that faithfulness is shown
11:47
yeah and and i saw that for me with god
11:50
is it's in the absence of experiencing
11:53
this relationship that faith is shown
11:57
for me
11:58
so i know i no longer needed like i had
12:01
in the past
12:02
god you have to meet me in this way then
12:04
i'll know what faith is
12:06
it was now able to live with that sense
12:08
of mystery
12:10
or uncertainty so was it
12:13
could you say that before you got to
12:15
that cabin in rhinelander
12:17
you saw your faith as certainty and that
12:19
was almost a big part of the struggle is
12:21
you couldn't be certain because you
12:23
didn't feel it but what you actually
12:24
transitioned into and graduated into an
12:27
actual real understanding of what faith
12:28
is
12:29
yeah a a deeper or it definitely seemed
12:33
more real to me you know how many times
12:36
have we said
12:37
oh god if you just show yourself to me
12:39
this once
12:40
in reality i will never doubt you again
12:44
and so
12:45
and maybe god in his grace gives you
12:47
that visionary moment
12:49
but as time goes on our distance from
12:51
that moment we begin to say
12:53
was that real did it really happen
12:56
yeah and and we long for it again and i
12:59
guess what i'm saying is
13:00
it's in the absence of now demanding
13:03
that god
13:05
show himself in those ways i knew
13:09
what i longed for was to continue on in
13:13
faith and and for me my understanding of
13:17
that is what marks me as a spiritual
13:20
person
13:21
because i believe that is received i
13:23
don't think
13:24
i think that is and i can't explain it
13:27
it's it
13:27
in some levels it's this is inexplicable
13:30
for me to be able to say
13:31
that i i receive faith but all of a
13:34
sudden
13:34
faith is was all that mattered to me
13:38
but it was no longer tied to how much i
13:40
knew about god
13:41
how much i knew about building church
13:43
how much i knew about the role of being
13:45
a pastor
13:46
i understood as faith as that which is
13:49
something that
13:50
marked my relationship with god
13:54
would would it be fair to say
13:57
that faith as you're speaking about it
14:02
was a kind of willful
14:05
continued commitment to god in the face
14:08
of uncertainty
14:09
and maybe doubt and maybe the absence of
14:12
a spiritual experience
14:15
or yeah would would faith as you're
14:18
describing it
14:19
require some kind of experience of the
14:22
presence of god how are those things
14:24
related
14:26
yeah it's like the the more we pursue
14:30
the experience of god the more elusive
14:32
it sometimes it becomes
14:33
yeah and so i don't want to ever reduce
14:36
faith for me as to an experience of god
14:40
a sensation of god or an argument
14:43
or a theological view does it
14:46
incorporate some of those things
14:48
yes so for me
14:51
it's almost about being less willful and
14:54
more surrendered
14:56
less uh less conviction and more trust
15:01
and again that's the the hard part for
15:03
me to explain
15:04
is i i remember at one time
15:08
going and saying to god i no longer want
15:10
to defend you god
15:13
i don't want to argue for you anymore
15:15
all i want is to know you
15:17
and when i remember saying that all of a
15:19
sudden how i knew
15:21
god changed
15:24
it's like uh i had all the arguments and
15:27
i had all the theological constructs for
15:29
god
15:30
but they could not bring me intimacy
15:33
with god
15:36
and what brought me intimacy with god
15:39
was now this place of
15:40
i trust you to do with me to lead me
15:45
as as you desire
15:49
my posture is now just going to be one
15:51
of trust
15:53
did your uh what you described as a dark
15:56
night of the soul that kind of absence
15:57
did that continue or did that
15:59
lift at the moment of this realization
16:02
yeah you know you know you you look back
16:04
and you say these things and it's like
16:06
oh yeah it just happened
16:07
no that for me took a long time
16:10
there was this steady place of
16:14
recognizing my longing for god wanting
16:17
to experience him
16:19
and saying i will trust you whether i
16:22
experience you or not
16:24
i will i i i will i will move towards a
16:28
place of trust
16:30
and and the oddity if this could be
16:33
called odd is
16:34
in in when i got to that place
16:37
of not trying to control my experience
16:39
of god
16:41
then i began to see god i began to see
16:45
god in many different ways and in many
16:48
different places
16:50
the jesuits speak about the joy of
16:53
their lives is to see god in everything
16:57
and there was this reality that i began
17:00
to see
17:01
god in things that i never saw
17:04
and i can't say it was willful as much
17:07
as it was postured
17:09
to trust posture to be open
17:13
and that's why i struggle a little bit
17:14
kyle with the word willful
17:16
because i it does it doesn't adequately
17:19
cover it for me because it doesn't feel
17:21
i never want to say to somebody it's
17:23
about mustering up
17:25
trust it's it almost feels the opposite
17:28
it felt
17:29
more relinquishing that's fair yeah
17:32
so what i'm after is there was a moment
17:35
of decision
17:36
there there was a willful in the sense
17:39
that you you exercised your volition
17:41
in the absence of an experience in the
17:43
absence of certainty
17:44
you decided i'm going to trust this
17:48
right yeah correct yeah
17:51
i'm going to i'm going to trust this and
17:53
and then there was there was some for me
17:56
addressing some things in my life at a
17:58
little bit more profound level
18:00
uh a deeper level there were patterns in
18:03
my life
18:03
of how i was relating to others there
18:05
was behaviors in my life that weren't
18:08
changed from my 20s
18:09
that i wanted to address and not just
18:11
understand that in terms of
18:13
a moral imperative do this don't do that
18:16
but understand what what's going on in
18:18
me
18:19
and learning to take what's going on
18:21
with me and and bringing that
18:23
to god and just saying god what is that
18:25
about
18:26
in me and so that for me
18:30
became the intentional part of learning
18:33
new practices
18:34
that allowed me to be present with my
18:38
whole self
18:39
within god and allowing god to do what
18:42
god alone can do
18:44
it's good so mark because i know a bit
18:46
of your journey
18:47
you didn't last at that church
18:49
leadership position how how many
18:51
how long did it take for you to leave
18:53
that yeah well there were some practices
18:55
for me
18:56
that were were becoming really central
18:58
to my life and
18:59
uh both the practice of solitude
19:03
the role of silence uh of learning
19:06
practices of stilling or centering
19:08
prayer
19:09
that i didn't want to teach in the
19:11
church until they were fully integrated
19:13
into my life
19:15
and so after about two to three years i
19:18
i
19:18
finally felt freedom to begin to speak
19:21
of some of these things
19:22
and as i spoke of some of the things
19:24
that for me were central
19:26
to to continuing on in this journey i
19:29
my view of leadership changed i became
19:32
more of a sense of discerning will
19:35
together
19:36
rather than saying this is what i want
19:39
i'm i'm the leader
19:40
everybody follow me it began to to focus
19:44
on
19:44
let's let's discover this and discern
19:47
god's will together
19:48
so my view of leadership change and it
19:51
changed because of those practices
19:53
that i began to build into my life of
19:55
learning to be alone with god
19:57
in solitude and quiet and that sounds a
20:00
whole lot like
20:00
ruth haley barton yeah yeah she was you
20:03
know
20:04
kyle you had mentioned what were some of
20:05
the things that that were really
20:07
essential
20:07
i knew i needed to change but i also
20:09
needed to recognize
20:11
that i needed somebody to help me and so
20:13
the transforming center
20:15
out of wheaton illinois with ruth haley
20:17
barton was central to that
20:19
so that was a gathering at the time of
20:21
of about 65
20:22
different people men and women in
20:24
ministry to learn about
20:26
what are the practices that we can
20:29
develop
20:30
in our lives that create not
20:33
burden some rhythms to our life but
20:35
natural rhythms that keep us present to
20:38
god
20:38
so i was a part of a transforming
20:40
community with
20:42
these 65 people with her receiving
20:45
instructions in spiritual practices and
20:47
disciplines
20:48
but very different than how i understood
20:51
spiritual disciplines
20:53
they were much more whole person much
20:55
more integrated
20:56
and in in doing that there was this
21:00
now learning again how to posture myself
21:03
to be present to god rather than
21:06
orchestrating the experience to be
21:08
something so you you you want you tried
21:10
to bring those practices those spiritual
21:12
practices
21:13
into the ministry and i'm guessing that
21:15
didn't
21:16
fly well with some people there was
21:18
there was great reception towards
21:20
and for other people that was it was
21:22
concerning
21:23
uh there was concerning of introducing
21:25
meditative practices into the life of
21:27
the church
21:28
so even though the church has a has a
21:30
long long history in ancient history
21:32
with meditative practices for for some
21:35
people meditation
21:36
seemed to to hearken unto things that
21:39
are that are more eastern in nature
21:41
eastern religions and so there was a
21:43
fear that i was teaching
21:45
things that began to really introduce
21:48
people to eastern
21:49
religious practices and there are some
21:52
things that mark similarity but there
21:54
are also
21:54
things that mark i think really
21:56
uniqueness and as i did that that that
21:59
created
21:59
us for some people some some concern
22:02
for the things that i was asking people
22:05
to participate in
22:06
so frustrating was that you're finding
22:08
life finally
22:09
right you've gone through this dark
22:10
night of the soul you're finally coming
22:12
out of it
22:13
and coming alive in those very practices
22:16
and ancient traditions that you are
22:19
holding to and discovering and
22:20
finding life in are you now you're being
22:23
told you might be a heretic because of
22:24
them
22:25
yeah all i can say is it's hard
22:29
there is what marks for me the spiritual
22:31
journey that we're all on
22:33
of moving from an external authority to
22:36
a true internal
22:38
so because i i understand spirituality
22:41
as the embodiment of the godhead within
22:44
me
22:44
to learn to trust that which is god
22:47
doing in me
22:48
rather than simply the voices that are
22:50
outside of me
22:52
but as i began this journey i realized
22:54
how much
22:55
people pleasing how much relying upon
22:58
the authorities really gave me
23:01
confidence but it was a false confidence
23:05
because i never learned to trust really
23:08
what is god at work doing within me
23:12
and is that work demonstrated or shown
23:15
by
23:16
the fruit of his spirit in my life and
23:19
so that became for me
23:20
what allowed me to continue on is to say
23:24
i i see you god i see the fruit of this
23:27
spirit in my life
23:29
and so i began to trust that and moved
23:32
away from needing to please others or to
23:35
only listen to others and i'm not trying
23:37
to say that i live in a vacuum here i
23:39
still have good counsel in my own life
23:41
from
23:42
from godly people but i learned to to
23:44
move from that
23:45
over reliance or over dependence upon
23:47
what is external
23:49
to a true internal where the spirit of
23:50
god dwells
23:52
and lives within me when you refer to
23:55
the authorities
23:56
or the external things what specifically
23:58
do you have in mind
23:59
yeah well you know it can be many
24:01
different
24:02
authorities external i've always been
24:05
impressed with scholarship
24:06
so i i loved reading commentaries on
24:10
on scripture and so that trusting of
24:13
what
24:14
they were understanding about scripture
24:17
became what i presented to others
24:20
regarding what scripture is saying
24:22
and i distrusted my own sense of what is
24:24
god
24:25
speaking through this in me so
24:28
there was this reliance upon scholarship
24:30
i think there was reliance
24:32
upon a variety of authority figures that
24:35
mark our lives
24:37
both parental and in in the workplace
24:40
our pastors that we trust and again i'm
24:43
not saying these are aren't necessarily
24:45
by any means
24:46
wrong but if we never get to a place of
24:49
integrating
24:49
this this place of the spirit dwelling
24:52
in us
24:53
and and learning to trust that because
24:56
god dwells there
24:58
then we can constantly move from one
25:00
place to the next
25:01
always looking for something to say i
25:04
can trust that that's authoritative in
25:06
my life
25:08
sometimes i think people do that even
25:10
with the word of god
25:11
i think they can look at the word of god
25:13
as being authoritative and i do
25:16
but they're always looking for somebody
25:17
to tell them what the word of god
25:19
says and uh
25:22
and they take great confidence or
25:25
assurance
25:26
in this person can tell me what god's
25:29
word says
25:30
and never get to that place of saying i
25:32
have read this for myself
25:34
and this logos this living word is
25:37
speaking to me
25:39
and it it shows itself not in
25:42
everybody flying off in all these
25:44
different directions saying the bible
25:46
can mean whatever we wanted to mean
25:48
but it really shows itself in a people
25:50
who have a studied
25:51
measured and a spirit reflected posture
25:54
towards life so that's i guess if that's
25:57
helpful
25:57
to say how what were the authorities
26:00
so for the other cerebral people in the
26:03
audience like myself
26:04
what is spiritual direction can you just
26:06
define that for us
26:07
yeah great no i i love it when people
26:10
ask that
26:11
because it's i need to compare it to how
26:14
i understood my role as a pastor as a
26:16
discipler of men and women and so if
26:19
being up for me pastor and a discipler
26:22
was about
26:23
here's what i've learned and let me pass
26:26
it on to you
26:27
the learner spiritual direction says i
26:30
seek to be in a
26:31
posture of prayer with you with god
26:36
honoring the work that god is doing in
26:38
your life
26:39
i don't pretend that i know all that god
26:42
has been doing in your life
26:44
but i do want to be with you
26:47
as you are seeking to respond to the
26:49
call of faith in your life
26:51
so it's less about teaching or talking
26:54
about theology as much as what is your
26:57
experience
26:58
of your theology teaching you about
27:01
you and god and that's the hard part
27:05
because the role is not to teach even
27:08
though there's elements of teaching in
27:09
it
27:10
the goal of spiritual direction is to
27:12
help this person
27:13
honor the call of faith in their life
27:17
and and to do that through a posture of
27:19
prayer and
27:20
and listening and and being present with
27:22
somebody as they are speaking
27:24
and talking about their what is their
27:27
experience of god
27:29
yeah so what you just said has shed some
27:31
light on my next question but i want to
27:32
ask it anyway just to make it concrete
27:34
so how would you say that spiritual
27:37
direction or maybe spiritual formation i
27:39
don't know if that's an okay substitute
27:41
how would you say that is like or
27:42
different from
27:44
moral formation or moral growth growth
27:47
as a person of character
27:49
yeah so uh yeah that's that's that's a
27:52
great question
27:53
because i think there are things that
27:55
mark similarities
27:57
obviously when i think of spiritual
27:59
direction and moral
28:01
values shape our our choices
28:04
i think for me what marks spiritual
28:07
direction
28:08
from moral development is
28:12
spiritual direction ties all that
28:15
is going on to its source which is god
28:19
i don't think you necessarily have to
28:21
believe in god or be
28:22
a christian to be moral it would be good
28:24
news for all our atheist listeners
28:26
yeah plenty of people who who just look
28:30
at
28:30
human beings relating to other human
28:32
beings develop a very high standard
28:35
moral living but for me the spiritual
28:39
formation
28:40
ultimately has its source within god and
28:44
its
28:44
culmination within god and so
28:47
it sees the direction moving towards
28:50
communion with god
28:52
and so if my source and my means
28:55
and the culmination of faith is
28:57
communion with god
28:59
then living out of that communion i
29:02
believe
29:02
we reflect back upon this world
29:05
that which is from that communion
29:09
and and that is moral in nature but
29:12
it's it's not trying to be moral it's
29:15
simply
29:16
i believe drawing close to that which we
29:19
are called into communion with
29:21
or community with yeah it's not merely
29:23
moral it involves
29:25
connection with a person a divine person
29:28
in a way that morality wouldn't require
29:30
so would you say that that communion
29:33
that you're describing
29:35
what is the experiential component of
29:37
that communion
29:39
does that make sense yeah yeah that's
29:42
really great
29:44
i believe the experiential part of it
29:47
is a sense of belonging a sense of
29:51
connection
29:52
a sense of unity or of union
29:56
a sense of participation
29:59
i think all those things for me
30:03
are the overflow of
30:06
my what i believe is the communion that
30:09
i have with god
30:10
so it's it's it's a knowing god that
30:13
isn't reducible
30:15
to me to a single definition like i can
30:18
tell you
30:19
i experience love but every time i try
30:22
to produce that to say how do you
30:23
experience love from god
30:25
it makes it become really trivial to me
30:28
and and yet i i will say that i know god
30:32
and in knowing god i love god and i am
30:35
known by god and loved by god there is a
30:38
sense of connectedness that i have
30:40
that i continue to live my life
30:43
in light of that connection so that's uh
30:47
i don't know if that answers your
30:48
question it's there's there is for me
30:50
there is a mysterious element or a i
30:53
want to say a very
30:55
mystical element to all relationships
30:58
i don't know if you're a married guy but
31:00
even when you begin to say
31:02
how do you know your wife or your spouse
31:04
loves you
31:05
when you begin to reducing it to things
31:07
they do
31:09
or say all of a sudden it goes
31:12
wow it it it kind of almost trivializes
31:16
a little bit
31:17
in the same way when i when i try to
31:19
describe this with god
31:22
it it trivializes it to me when i move
31:25
into saying
31:26
too much that i know god because he
31:29
loves me and how do i know he loves me
31:31
yeah what i really like about your
31:34
answer
31:35
is is that the description that you gave
31:38
of the experiential aspect
31:40
everything you said could be embodied in
31:42
a community of humans
31:44
it could all be experienced through
31:47
other people
31:48
and nothing you said requires like
31:51
hearing god's voice
31:53
or experiencing a tangible presence of
31:55
like jesus
31:56
in your room because many christians as
31:58
you yourself experience go their whole
32:00
life without ever experiencing anything
32:01
like that
32:02
and it would be very sad if the kind of
32:05
communion you're talking about was just
32:06
unavailable to those people so i really
32:08
loved your answer actually because it
32:10
didn't require that kind of
32:11
qualitative experience great yeah mark
32:14
can i ask because
32:15
i've just been kind of listening and
32:17
coming from an evangelical background
32:20
uh you know the evangelical free church
32:22
was my my upbringing
32:24
and all of this the notion of spiritual
32:27
direction the sound it sounds beautiful
32:28
and this type of
32:30
input into one's life feels like it
32:32
could be a really necessary thread
32:34
and yet i never heard of this this
32:36
wasn't you know it was the
32:38
centrality of the word and involvement
32:41
in church and
32:42
there's there's all of the the
32:43
structures that are very familiar why
32:45
isn't this
32:46
one of them particularly in the context
32:48
of the evangelical tradition
32:50
yeah well the the evangelical churches
32:54
that is the newest kid on the block
32:56
they are the they are the the newest
32:58
branch within the long and
33:01
and uh wonderful tree of the church
33:04
and so we we are the kind of the
33:06
youngest and then even then
33:08
it has been further so there's there's
33:10
not a lot of things that that mark
33:12
what really is the evangelical tradition
33:16
uh and so uh it's not a part of what has
33:19
been
33:20
how we have practiced and yet i would
33:22
say almost intuitively
33:24
that those who both walk with god and
33:27
continue to walk with god
33:29
for a lifetime begin to be able to be
33:32
present with people in a posture not
33:34
simply of only
33:36
teaching or pointing to the same old
33:38
things we always were pointed to
33:40
but learning to help people to discern
33:43
the work of the spirit in their lives
33:45
for themselves
33:46
and and that to me ties it to something
33:49
that is very
33:50
ancient so yes it is new to
33:53
it's not within our tradition it is
33:56
curious to me though as
33:57
now i love watching what's taking place
34:00
in both seminaries and bible colleges
34:02
all over and
34:03
and so the rave when i was in both
34:06
college
34:07
and university was all about disciple
34:09
making
34:10
and now the the language is moving
34:12
towards understanding formation and
34:14
spiritual formation
34:16
and quite a few seminaries now i know
34:18
are offering coursework
34:20
in spiritual direction as part of how
34:22
they are training those who are entering
34:24
the ministry
34:25
uh so it's new you've talked about
34:28
something
34:29
you know the evangelical tradition is
34:30
the youngest as far as the way of jesus
34:33
in the last 2000 years can you trace the
34:36
thread for us
34:37
of what i would call i don't know what
34:39
you would call i'd be interested in what
34:40
you would call it but
34:41
a contemplative journey the
34:43
contemplative way
34:45
more of a mystical approach to god
34:48
in a journey with god yeah can you give
34:50
us a little bit of a framework for that
34:52
yeah yeah i don't know if i can quite do
34:54
that but i'll try to try to explain it
34:56
as
34:56
as best i can when i think of both a
34:59
contemplative spirituality or are those
35:02
who look at the world in a contemplative
35:04
way
35:04
or uh understanding spiritual formation
35:08
contemplation is is for me
35:11
i think it was richard rohr who said a
35:13
long
35:14
loving gaze at what is real
35:17
and and looking at what is real
35:21
is not just simply looking at this from
35:24
god
35:24
being most real it is that
35:27
but it's looking at other human beings
35:30
as being real
35:32
and looking at the world that we live in
35:34
as being real
35:36
so a contemplative spirituality is a
35:39
long
35:39
loving gaze at what is real
35:43
and when we do that what we find is
35:46
not our difference but our
35:49
communion with that which is real
35:53
and in finding that communion now our
35:56
posture moves from saying
35:58
i'm not about simply being present with
36:01
you
36:02
so i can convert you change you teach
36:04
you
36:05
it's so that i can practice ultimately
36:08
a form of compassion or communion with
36:12
another person
36:13
yeah before you go on i just want to
36:15
take a moment to just take that in
36:17
a long not just a long gaze but a long
36:20
loving gaze at that which is real um
36:24
because all of most of my gazes are
36:27
along judgmental gaze at something or
36:31
along critiquing gays whether it's
36:33
myself
36:34
right first and foremost in the world
36:36
around me the other political party the
36:38
other
36:38
religious traditions atheists whatever
36:41
it is it's
36:42
critiquing it's judgmental and can as i
36:44
say that as you said
36:45
a long loving gaze at that which is real
36:48
and then i think about
36:49
long critiquing gaze along
36:52
cynical gaze along judgmental gaze it
36:55
just tells me
36:56
how depleted are our souls
37:00
when something like a long-loving gaze
37:02
at that which is real seems so striking
37:04
do you know what i mean yeah it is it is
37:07
striking
37:08
it allows us to say i can be with
37:11
somebody
37:11
recognizing difference but never
37:14
separation
37:15
and that that gets tested every time we
37:18
recognize somebody has a very different
37:20
either theological view or world view
37:23
than us
37:24
is to say can i recognize there is
37:26
difference or distinction
37:28
but never separation from this person
37:31
that's that long loving gaze at what is
37:33
most real and what is most real is
37:36
however i see this person is that we
37:39
share
37:40
a great deal in common with
37:44
and uh for me that's that's the hard
37:48
work
37:49
so to speak of spiritual growth is to be
37:52
able to say
37:53
i don't always have to be right i don't
37:57
always have to be in control
37:58
and i don't have to be the one in power
38:01
because
38:01
when i think i have to be right my gaze
38:05
towards someone is judgmental or when i
38:08
have to be the one who is in control
38:10
it's because i see these things going on
38:12
and i'm going to change them
38:14
but when we learn to relinquish power
38:16
control
38:17
and even being on the right side we
38:20
begin to allow ourselves to
38:22
see other people would you stop scolding
38:24
me mark and that's enneagram eights
38:29
so i have a really hard question that's
38:32
not on
38:33
the outline we sent you we can totally
38:36
cut this out if you're unhappy with how
38:38
this goes
38:39
um but what you were just saying made me
38:41
think of it
38:42
i mean it's something i admit i
38:44
personally struggle trying to understand
38:46
it's one of the
38:47
one of really the core aspects of
38:48
christianity that i that i have a hard
38:50
time with
38:51
these days and that is how does that
38:55
i don't know if you'd want to call it an
38:56
obligation or an injunction
38:58
or something that's normative for the
39:00
christian that thing that you just
39:02
described
39:03
of relinquishing power how does that
39:05
apply
39:06
to people who are already socially
39:08
disempowered
39:10
yeah so for example there have been some
39:12
feminist philosophers
39:14
and feminist theologians who have
39:15
written about the harm
39:17
that that kind of teaching does and this
39:19
teaching is found in the scripture
39:20
itself so this is a core aspect of
39:22
christianity you can't just remove it
39:25
the harm that that does to people who
39:28
are already in a position of weakness to
39:30
be told that they have to
39:31
somehow make a virtue out of
39:35
the kind of weakness that's already been
39:36
forced upon them and give forgiveness to
39:39
the powerful
39:40
that sort of thing but this is actually
39:41
harmful the feminist theologians put it
39:44
much more eloquently but hopefully you
39:45
get the the sense of the kind of issue
39:47
that i'm struggling with here so
39:49
could you speak to that at all
39:51
everyone's that's really heavy and
39:52
difficult but
39:54
yeah let me see if i can try to what
39:56
you're asking is
39:58
to those who are disempowered right now
40:02
how does this language of seeing
40:06
in common empower them
40:09
yeah and that and also how does it avoid
40:12
continuing to disempower them
40:15
yeah yeah yeah i i don't know if i have
40:19
a great answer for
40:20
for that to be quite honest uh but i but
40:24
i like that
40:24
you're making me really think i think on
40:27
my feet
40:28
so again so much for me of
40:31
understanding spiritual growth is tied
40:34
towards this
40:35
understanding of myself within god
40:38
and in living in that place from a place
40:40
of communion
40:41
in a place of communion connected to my
40:44
source
40:45
i stand on that which is my true ground
40:48
in which i live and move and have my
40:50
being
40:53
now are there other things that as i
40:57
grow
40:57
that i have learned to stand on as well
41:02
and the answer to that is yes i've
41:04
learned to stand upon being right
41:07
of acting in power of controlling what i
41:10
can
41:12
and it to some extent for me all those
41:16
are tied to very much what is
41:20
my my ego being defined
41:24
by that which marks right or
41:27
power or control for me the spiritual
41:30
journey
41:31
in relinquishing that to finding all
41:33
that within god
41:35
doesn't mean that i don't exercise
41:39
power i just no longer default to it
41:43
or default to take control
41:46
what i do is in that place of being
41:48
within god
41:49
i recognize those who are
41:51
disenfranchised and disempowered
41:53
and i seek to do those things that would
41:55
empower them
41:57
but i know that their journey is
42:00
a similar one to mine that they too
42:03
will need to let go of power of control
42:07
and and that ability to to change things
42:11
or to be on the right side of things
42:13
if they are going to continue in the
42:15
journey
42:16
does that make sense so so there are
42:20
there are times when
42:21
my my language is really strong against
42:23
things that mark people who are
42:25
exploited
42:26
or people who are dismissed or judged to
42:30
be inferior
42:31
my language can be really strong but
42:34
it's not
42:34
just defaulting to what i used to rely
42:38
upon to say
42:39
i'm right here and you need to think
42:42
exactly like i do and you too can be
42:44
right
42:45
what i'm defaulting to instead or
42:49
seeking to is from that place of sharing
42:51
in common with all people
42:53
both empowering people stepping aside
42:57
and also at times stepping forward
43:00
and for me now that you're saying this i
43:02
think the the imagery for me
43:04
is is is of christ because
43:07
it says that that all authority had been
43:09
given to him by god
43:11
to lay down his life
43:14
and to take it back up again and so the
43:17
call
43:18
for all of us in who follow in his
43:20
footsteps is to say what does it mean to
43:22
lay this down
43:24
and what does it mean to take it back up
43:26
again but when we lay it down
43:29
we're laying it down from a place of
43:33
of seeking or reflecting communion with
43:35
him
43:36
and when we pick it back up this life we
43:38
do it from a place of communion
43:41
with god as well so it has allowed me to
43:44
to be more courageous at times than i
43:47
ever have been in my life
43:49
and it has allowed me to be silent at
43:51
times
43:52
and i don't need to say anything whereas
43:55
both of those
43:57
being bold i would have said that's
43:59
going to tell everybody
44:00
what i think and how i'm right and
44:02
that's going to really make me an
44:04
important person
44:06
some of that i've had to let go of in
44:08
fact all of that i've tried to let go of
44:10
in some sense
44:12
mark uh switching directions a little
44:13
bit um i know firsthand that you use
44:16
the enneagram as part of your spiritual
44:18
direction practice
44:19
why is that yeah yeah great yeah i love
44:22
this question
44:23
really that you ask why and also i
44:25
suppose what is it for for listeners
44:27
that might not be familiar
44:29
yeah an oversimplification of it if the
44:31
enneagram
44:32
is is a tool that helps us to understand
44:35
ourselves
44:36
one of the one of the things that has
44:37
historically been a part of the church
44:39
the early church on to the present day
44:41
is how
44:42
a knowledge of self is actually a
44:46
complementary means for understanding
44:48
god
44:49
or understanding something of god not
44:51
all of god but something of god
44:53
augustine said oh lord grant me that i
44:56
would know myself
44:58
that i may know the and you go oh wow he
45:01
was saying something really
45:02
profound there about knowing ourselves
45:05
and you see that all throughout the
45:07
church that a strong
45:09
self-awareness a strong knowledge of who
45:13
i am
45:14
corresponds to an awareness of god
45:17
they're complementary they go together
45:20
and that makes sense when we understand
45:22
that we are imago dei when we are made
45:24
in his image created in his image
45:26
that something by even just looking at
45:28
how human beings interact
45:30
is going to say something true of god so
45:33
why i like the enneagram is because i
45:36
believe it
45:36
helps us to become aware of how we
45:39
act how we think how we feel
45:43
and it does it by shining i think four
45:46
kind of lenses
45:48
on an individual and it asks you to look
45:51
through those lenses when you look at
45:53
yourself
45:54
and so if the first lens that we can
45:55
look at in a four-pane window
45:58
is the lens of what everybody sees when
46:00
they look at you
46:02
and what you see when you present
46:04
yourself to others
46:06
the enneagram helps you to see how you
46:08
present yourself to others
46:10
and how others generally see you but
46:13
there's another pain that we don't often
46:15
like to look at
46:16
and that is that pain that window pain
46:19
or that lens that says
46:21
uh these are things that i'm blind to in
46:23
my life
46:25
that i don't see about me but others do
46:29
see in me if you're familiar with the
46:31
navigators ministry dawson trotman said
46:34
years ago
46:35
to his co-workers when he was founding
46:37
the navigators if you could tell me one
46:39
true thing about me
46:41
and you were assured that i wouldn't get
46:43
defensive what would you tell me about
46:45
me
46:46
and he asked it with a great deal of
46:48
humility and i loved it because he's
46:50
trying to get at that idea of
46:52
what he was blind to because he
46:56
recognized that there are things that
46:58
mark his life that he's blind to
47:00
well that's the first there's the open
47:02
lens the the blind lens there's also a
47:04
third lens and that's the things that we
47:07
hide
47:07
about ourselves that we know about us
47:10
that other people don't see
47:12
we don't let them see it and then the
47:15
fourth lens is the lens that really
47:17
marks our undergoing that we may not
47:21
even have language for
47:22
that is still unknown to us what the
47:25
enneagram helps us to do
47:27
is to see ourselves in all those lenses
47:30
things that we're blind to things that
47:32
we're open to and things that we hide
47:35
and begin to dialogue with somebody on
47:38
those
47:39
as a way of understanding the self
47:42
and knowing ultimately god that's why i
47:45
love the enneagram
47:47
it's not a it's not a a pick-me-up type
47:50
look at yourself it has you understand
47:53
yourself not in terms of just simply
47:54
your virtue
47:56
but also the other side of it your vice
47:59
and explore that in a way that's largely
48:02
i think non-judgmental but helps you to
48:05
see yourself accurately
48:07
well i took it yesterday and i feel
48:09
great about myself
48:12
it told me i'm inquisitive and
48:14
investigative
48:15
and funny it was great be a five
48:20
how'd you know uh
48:24
so kyle is a
48:27
proud skeptic and uh hater of the
48:30
enemies
48:32
it's just a fact that i am a skeptic so
48:34
before before he fires
48:35
fires a few uh shots at it let me ask
48:39
this is just an observation tell me if
48:40
you think i'm right mark but there seems
48:42
to be a lot of
48:43
pop culture enneagram engagement and by
48:46
that i mean there's all these free
48:49
assessments out there that may or may
48:50
not be good and then you learn your
48:52
number and it's cool and it's a
48:54
conversation piece but that's all you
48:55
ever do with it
48:56
and there's it's this very shallow
48:58
experience with the enneagram
49:00
is that actually can that be destructive
49:04
rather than actually doing it yeah well
49:06
i you know i
49:07
i guess i'm kind of in favor of of any
49:10
tool that helps us to understand
49:11
ourselves
49:12
okay so whether it's the myers-briggs or
49:15
a disc test or strength finders or any
49:17
number of different tests
49:18
i love those things that raise our level
49:21
of awareness
49:22
so the the the danger for me of the
49:25
of the of of what i see popularized
49:28
right now with the enneagram
49:29
is people are defining themselves by
49:32
their number
49:33
uh and what the enneagram really at its
49:35
core is trying to say is
49:37
you know you're you're this number but
49:40
you're not this number
49:42
you are actually something more all
49:45
right
49:45
and so to be in that place of imago day
49:49
of created new in christ is to step into
49:53
that
49:54
so what the enneagram will show you
49:58
is not only how you have learned to
50:01
navigate
50:01
life but also how you're limited by it
50:06
and if you are to continue in this
50:09
journey
50:09
of growth in your life at some points
50:12
you have to
50:13
address those ways that it limits you
50:17
and uh i love it for its dialogue
50:20
so you know do i do you have to use it
50:23
no i just love it as a tool that helps
50:25
me to
50:26
to talk to people about three core
50:28
passions
50:29
and to do that without judgment and so
50:31
to talk to people about
50:33
anger anxiety and fear
50:36
wow and and to do that freely is
50:39
one of the things that i love about it
50:43
i think randy wants me to tear into you
50:44
now no i don't want you to tear into him
50:47
i love mark too much but do you have any
50:48
questions kyle
50:51
um believe it or not randy i hate to
50:53
disappoint you here but as mark has just
50:54
presented this
50:55
i have no objections actually i actually
50:59
really respect this
51:00
um yeah i'm skeptical about other
51:02
aspects of it but you haven't exhibited
51:05
or
51:05
asserted any of those aspects and so uh
51:08
i don't have any direct
51:09
uh objections to you and i don't want to
51:11
necessarily turn the podcast into uh
51:13
say what's wrong with the enneagram in
51:14
general yeah
51:16
i mean it's a tool and i i use it as
51:20
a as a tool for dialoguing the question
51:22
for me is
51:23
often when you talk to people uh
51:26
about themselves the human capacity to
51:30
be deceptive
51:31
to to not look honestly at ourselves is
51:34
is pretty profound and so sometimes it's
51:37
nice to have
51:38
a little bit of a tool that can say you
51:41
know that this core
51:42
quality or core passion for five six and
51:46
sevens on the enneagram is fear
51:48
i'm wondering where you have fear in
51:50
your life or how much fear is directing
51:53
your desire to get more
51:56
yeah and so long as so long as in in an
51:59
exchange like that
52:00
the person is free to get to a place
52:03
where they
52:04
recognize that there isn't any fear so
52:07
long as that is
52:08
still a legitimate option that's on the
52:09
table then i'm okay with it
52:12
it's not like the let me give you an
52:13
example of what i would not be okay with
52:15
the sort of church context that i used
52:18
to exist in
52:20
within a certain kind of pentecostal
52:21
form of evangelicalism
52:24
any time someone exhibited something
52:26
other than what was viewed as
52:27
the paradigm of faith and and
52:31
and often there were evidences that were
52:32
supposed to go along with that like your
52:33
life was supposed to exhibit certain
52:35
characteristics if you were faithful
52:37
and then if they didn't exhibit those
52:38
characteristics there was something
52:39
wrong with you
52:40
and all of the focus of the church then
52:42
was to figure out what it was that you
52:44
did wrong
52:45
why you don't have enough faith in these
52:46
specific concrete ways etc
52:48
so the kind of abuse that i see in the
52:51
area of this
52:52
this aspect of the enneagram could be
52:54
that if i
52:55
as a five don't actually see any fear in
52:59
my life
53:00
then i should be allowed to just move on
53:03
without trying to find where the fear is
53:04
you know what i mean
53:05
yeah exactly and even when i look at the
53:08
role of spiritual direction but the role
53:09
of spiritual direction is not to create
53:11
fear
53:12
it but it is to say okay when there is
53:14
fear how are you responding to it
53:17
how do how when when you name your fears
53:21
or your desires to god
53:22
how do you hear god speaking or how do
53:24
you sense god leading
53:26
uh in light of those fears or desires so
53:30
my whole interaction with it is to say
53:32
if it's not broken don't fix it
53:34
i mean if it's broken let's let's
53:35
address it so
53:37
what is your experience of god what is
53:39
your experience of
53:41
of really your theology where is it
53:44
taken to you
53:45
and if it's taking you to good and
53:46
wonderful and high and beautiful places
53:49
super yeah but if it's also taking you
53:52
to a place of of sometimes
53:53
feeling trapped stuck
53:57
not free at some point we have to
54:00
to say to continue this journey we have
54:02
to address that
54:04
what's interesting kyle is that
54:07
if you have asked me a year ago before i
54:09
encountered the enneagram and received
54:10
spiritual direction
54:12
um what are what's my main areas of
54:13
brokenness i would have
54:16
listed a few areas that were obvious
54:18
that are
54:19
you know i would have mentioned you know
54:22
lust or maybe i have a few too many
54:24
drinks sometimes
54:25
or you know whatever the standard i
54:28
swear
54:29
i have a struggle with that you don't
54:31
struggle with it you're great at it
54:33
thank you yeah yeah very proficient
54:36
but i would not have mentioned anger as
54:39
as a main primary area of brokenness i
54:42
would have said i'm a very loving person
54:44
actually
54:45
now i can get a little hot but no i'm a
54:48
loving person
54:49
and what i've discovered in this
54:52
year-long journey
54:53
that is just the beginning is that
54:56
probably my main area of brokenness is
54:58
anger
54:58
and i just wasn't aware of it and i'm
55:00
becoming more and more aware of it
55:02
and i see it more and more and it's so
55:04
blaring so damn obvious
55:06
you know now that but i would have never
55:08
i would have never
55:09
seen it and now i can actually see and
55:12
sense and
55:13
feel and hear invitations out of it even
55:16
in the moment when i'm giving myself to
55:18
it so
55:18
i will say even if it doesn't feel like
55:20
maybe fear is a thing
55:22
air it out let it let it let it come to
55:24
the surface a little bit sure
55:26
yeah so to be clear i'm not claiming
55:27
that i have no fear in my life right
55:29
there might be some that's subconscious
55:30
or whatever
55:31
i'm just make using that as an
55:32
illustration of i don't want to shoehorn
55:35
people into you have to find this
55:36
specific thing about you or you're
55:38
missing something right
55:39
yeah yeah and and and and the goal of
55:42
that then would be able to try to help
55:44
that person in spiritual direction to
55:46
understand
55:47
and see some things that mark patterns
55:50
of how they are relating to others
55:52
relating to god
55:53
relating to this world that you can now
55:56
say okay what is that bringing to you
55:59
and where also may it be limiting you
56:02
yeah uh because it's it's not hard to
56:04
look at any of the nine
56:06
virtues that make up the enneagram and
56:09
and go wow those are really good things
56:13
so you call them virtues that's
56:14
interesting in most of my
56:16
admittedly brief research um they're
56:19
they're variously
56:20
called i mean sometimes virtues but more
56:22
often than not they're called
56:23
just types they can be good or bad in
56:25
various circumstances and sometimes
56:27
they're called sins
56:28
yeah yeah so it's just really
56:31
interesting how people approach it so
56:32
differently
56:33
yeah and and so for me my when i was
56:36
trained with it
56:37
to be in the image of god is to be able
56:39
to say that god
56:40
there is a moral nature that marks being
56:42
human
56:44
and so how do we see that manifested in
56:46
those nine
56:47
virtues and why there are nine that's
56:49
that's a complicated thing why
56:51
sure it's an interesting thing but it is
56:54
you're right complicated but to be able
56:55
to say there are virtues that market but
56:58
but to be able to see our virtue and and
57:00
we've known this
57:02
intuitively that the thing that often
57:03
marks our strengths
57:05
is often our weakness as well are we
57:08
able to face that
57:10
in my in my life i i would never have
57:13
told you that i was an
57:15
anxious person i would have told you
57:18
that i'm practicing
57:19
self-control and that's how i kind of
57:21
always got through
57:23
when i felt anxious i always use the
57:25
energy of my anxiety
57:27
to do something remarkable or to attempt
57:30
to do something remarkable
57:32
but i was not aware of my own sense that
57:35
what i'm experiencing here
57:36
is anxiety and then the deeper reality
57:39
of that anxiety was
57:41
how much i relied upon both people
57:43
pleasing
57:44
or people telling me i have value to
57:47
know how to navigate life
57:49
and even to be able to go back to what
57:51
you initially asked me randy
57:52
of when those things that we have
57:56
used throughout our life to tell us who
57:58
we are
57:59
all of a sudden get exposed
58:02
then we have to ask the question well
58:04
who am i really
58:06
and to me that's when we step into the
58:08
true ground of our being within god
58:13
friends before we continue we want to
58:15
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58:17
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58:31
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58:32
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58:33
and 375 selections of wine
58:36
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58:39
info
58:39
if you're in milwaukee you'll thank
58:41
yourself for visiting story hill bkc
58:43
and if you're not remember to support
58:45
local one more time that's
58:48
storyhillbkc.com
58:51
so mark as we wrap up this time together
58:54
i want to turn
58:55
towards our listeners two things what
58:57
are just a couple of practices
58:58
disciplines ways methods
59:02
that anybody can use to to kind of
59:05
become more aware of our inner lives and
59:07
our soul and care for our soul and
59:09
become aware of our soul even
59:11
what would you say yeah i think one of
59:13
the first ones is
59:15
to recognize how beautifully and
59:16
wonderfully we are designed by god
59:19
just in living uh in a body on this
59:22
planet
59:23
and so learning to pay attention to
59:25
ourselves in the body
59:26
is a wonderful exercise and a spiritual
59:30
practice that anybody can practice
59:32
at any time during the day and to do
59:35
that is to just allow ourselves to be
59:37
still
59:38
and to pay attention and this time we're
59:41
paying attention to
59:43
and if we could just put it into three
59:44
categories just for the sake of
59:46
simplicity
59:48
what is my body sensing what am i
59:52
feeling and what am i thinking
59:56
there is a reality that all of us go
59:58
through every day
60:00
sensing thinking and feeling but we
60:02
don't recognize the speed at which we
60:05
move through a sensation or a feeling
60:08
into a thought and how they give either
60:11
stimulus or birth to the other
60:14
and so the simple practice of slowing
60:16
down
60:17
and paying attention to our bodies what
60:20
am i sensing on my body right now
60:23
i i love the idea of just simply
60:26
recognizing that i have
60:28
five senses and what are the senses
60:30
experiencing right now
60:32
and seeing that as a spiritual practice
60:35
that god has gifted me with senses
60:38
but then to know where my thoughts begin
60:41
to drift towards when i become aware of
60:43
my senses where they begin to focus on
60:46
and does that thought create a feeling
60:50
and then when you have that sensation
60:52
that thought and that feeling
60:54
to learn to just be that with god and
60:57
ask god what's that about
60:59
and as you learn to do that you'll be
61:01
surprised at
61:03
how much god i believe leans
61:07
and pushes and and prompts within you
61:11
regarding the things that are really
61:13
vital to living life
61:14
well so that's that's one that i would
61:17
say is learn to pay attention to your
61:19
own
61:20
life in the body that god has given to
61:22
you it's good it's really good yeah
61:24
i found myself today even
61:27
i had we had our staff meeting today and
61:30
i was
61:30
a little bit overwhelmed by all the
61:32
things on my to-do list and all the
61:33
things that i have to
61:34
you know weeks down the road think of
61:36
and plan for and found myself getting
61:38
very anxious and my thoughts were
61:42
bouncing around it was i felt
61:44
schizophrenic but having the practice of
61:48
being able to
61:49
slow pause breathe
61:53
releasing those things and then even
61:57
being able to take a walk and do a
61:58
checklist of no that's okay
62:00
and oh no that'll be that'll be fine to
62:03
be able to
62:04
still and be aware of what's going on
62:06
inside is just
62:08
that's that's a that's a fun time that's
62:10
yeah and that's really
62:12
an interesting thing randy because you
62:13
know if a person is extroverted and
62:16
feels
62:16
overwhelmed generally they let people
62:19
know around them
62:21
they verbalize that they bring that into
62:23
the external world
62:24
whereas an introvert maybe say you know
62:27
uh
62:28
i'm feeling overwhelmed and nobody needs
62:30
to know that
62:31
but the key is are we aware
62:34
that that's what we're experiencing all
62:37
right
62:38
so that this this patterned response of
62:40
when i
62:41
overwhelm here's what i do i'm learning
62:44
to say
62:45
oh i have more than one choice here
62:48
i i can actually be aware of it and move
62:50
to do something that reflects i think
62:52
being in step with the spirit of god
62:55
and i love that you were able to do that
62:57
yeah so as we finish our time
62:59
mark you usually begin and end our times
63:03
with what you call spiritual direction
63:04
where you're
63:06
directing me to calm and still myself
63:09
could you do that for us right now
63:13
yeah so it's a it's a stilling prayer or
63:16
a centering prayer
63:17
and if you'd let me do that with you i'd
63:19
like to do that
63:20
and so what i'm going to ask you to do
63:22
is first just to be really comfortable
63:24
in your chair with your your feet on the
63:26
floor
63:27
and then to close your eyes
63:33
and then to allow yourself to take a
63:35
deep stilling
63:36
or a centering breath
63:40
to breathe deeply
63:49
and as you are breathing to let your
63:52
breath be an affirmation
63:57
of your life
64:01
and that god wants you here
64:13
and so as you breathe to hold
64:15
thankfulness
64:16
for that breath and for your life
64:29
and as you are breathing to pay
64:31
attention to the life that god has given
64:33
you
64:33
in this body
64:37
and what your body is sensing right now
64:41
and if there's any places of tension or
64:43
tightness
64:46
or even pain
64:51
to not to push that away
64:55
but to connect your breath to your body
64:59
and just allow those places to come to
65:01
ease
65:02
or to be relaxed
65:13
and sometimes it's easier
65:17
to steal our body and much harder
65:21
to steal our thoughts
65:27
and so just for this moment i want to
65:30
ask you
65:33
just to allow your thoughts to be either
65:35
handed over to god
65:42
or to allow them just to move on
65:46
and to let it be enough to be still
65:50
before god with nothing to fix
65:55
nothing to solve
66:05
and if you find yourself your thoughts
66:07
taking
66:08
captive again and running in a certain
66:10
direction just
66:11
gently allow yourself to focus in on
66:14
your breath
66:20
and to be thankful
66:38
amen amen
66:42
oh man we were planning to do record
66:44
another episode after this but i may
66:46
just go to bed now
66:50
it's a remarkable thing that even when
66:53
they've done study on on the human body
66:55
and what is
66:56
actually it begins to produce when when
66:58
thankfulness is held
67:00
within the heart that there's actually
67:02
healing agencies and serotonin and
67:05
all these beautiful things that begin to
67:07
circulate through your body
67:09
because you held thankfulness and so
67:12
it's just not a mind thing
67:14
it's it's a reality of embodied
67:16
spirituality that we can move into the
67:18
presence of god and be thankful
67:20
and that can have wonderful i think
67:23
healing effects on our own bodies
67:26
good well mark werner
67:30
thank you so much for taking time and
67:31
joining us and letting me share you with
67:33
our listeners
67:34
it's been a pleasure yeah well thank you
67:37
for letting me be here with you guys
67:38
it's it's been
67:39
been fun for me i was a little anxious
67:42
about
67:43
how how this was gonna go but you guys
67:45
made it pretty delightful
67:46
thank you thanks for spending this time
67:49
with us we really hope that you're
67:51
enjoying these conversations as much as
67:53
we are
67:54
and if you are help us get the word out
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you can find those links on our social
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at patreon.com a pastor and a
68:12
philosopher
68:13
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68:24
time this has been a pastor and a
68:26
philosopher
68:26
walk into a bar