What is the Bible? How should we read it? What does it mean for a text to be authoritative? Do I have to believe the Bible is inerrant in order to be a Christian? In this episode, we discuss the beautiful messiness that is the Bible and talk about our relationships with this incredible and ancient text.
Catch Part 2 of this conversation here.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Wathen's Single Barrel.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
What is the Bible? How should we read it? What does it mean for a text to be authoritative? Do I have to believe the Bible is inerrant in order to be a Christian? In this episode, we discuss the beautiful messiness that is the Bible and talk about our relationships with this incredible and ancient text.
Catch Part 2 of this conversation here.
The whiskey featured in this episode is Wathen's Single Barrel.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
[Music]
00:13
welcome to
00:14
a pastor and a philosopher walk into a
00:16
bar the podcast where we mix a sometimes
00:18
weird but always delicious cocktail of
00:21
theology
00:21
philosophy and spirituality
00:26
[Music]
00:28
so in this episode we are discussing the
00:30
bible uh we knew we would have to get to
00:32
this topic eventually
00:34
i have to he says he knows now it's as
00:36
good a time as any
00:38
we're affectionately calling this the
00:39
b-i-v-l-e uh just so that song will be
00:42
stuck in your head
00:43
after you hear this in the same way that
00:44
it's been stuck in mine all day you're
00:46
welcome
00:46
you're welcome for that well i don't
00:48
know about you but i
00:50
could use a drink agreed
00:53
so for today's tasting we have a bourbon
00:56
that was gifted to us by our friends
00:58
here in milwaukee
00:59
at story hill bkc which i got to be
01:02
honest was my main hope for doing a
01:03
podcast
01:05
if nothing else comes out of this i'm
01:07
totally satisfied with where we have
01:09
landed already
01:10
we made it uh so this this offering from
01:12
story hill
01:13
is called wathens straight bourbon and
01:16
this
01:17
is the single barrel version which comes
01:20
in at 94 proof
01:21
i googled and the mash bill apparently
01:23
is 77
01:24
corn which is pretty good that's
01:26
highlighted in corn yeah 10
01:28
rye 13 barley
01:32
why'd you choose to say 10 before 13
01:36
i'm reading it off the internet got it
01:40
so no age statement on this um
01:43
probably somewhere between four and
01:44
eight years but that's
01:46
speculation it's not as hot as i would
01:48
expect it to be for us
01:49
um barrel proof not in the mouth it goes
01:52
down a little warm but yeah i was gonna
01:54
say it's
01:54
very clean i mean it's not as complex as
01:57
a lot of bourbons but that's not in a
02:00
bad way it's it's
02:01
i kind of like it reminds me of like an
02:03
eagle rare kind of clean flavor where
02:05
it's not super complex but it's really
02:07
easy drinking do you know what i mean
02:09
yeah it's really smooth it's not as
02:11
sweet as i would expect it to be for
02:13
that much corn
02:15
which actually might be a good thing
02:16
depending on your palate need some
02:18
simple syrup or something
02:22
randy is currently choking on his
02:23
bourbon for those who can't see that
02:26
strong vanilla yeah not a ton of oak in
02:29
there
02:30
yeah not not a ton i get some dark
02:32
berries in there some dark fruit
02:35
i'm a fan i've never i'll be honest i've
02:37
never even heard of wildens before
02:39
story hill bkc brought it to us i love
02:41
trying new things and this is fun
02:43
awesome so woden's kentucky bourbon
02:45
single barrel from story hill bkc if
02:47
you're in milwaukee
02:48
go to storehealth bkc if you're not in
02:50
milwaukee support your local restaurants
02:52
and bars
02:53
[Music]
02:55
um so we're going to discuss the whole
02:58
range of things
02:59
what is the bible how do we use it how
03:01
should we not
03:02
use it maybe what are some good ways to
03:05
approach it some not so good ways
03:07
what are the problems with the ways that
03:08
a lot of christians have used it and
03:10
continue to use it
03:11
so this might end up getting split into
03:13
a couple episodes we have kind of a lot
03:15
to say
03:16
randy you wanna you want to launch us
03:18
off well
03:20
so let's talk about first what is the
03:22
bible
03:23
so that we can get on an even playing
03:24
field here i'm i'm hoping that we have a
03:26
few atheists listening or
03:28
former you know christians
03:31
that are interested in this so let's
03:33
let's get into what is the bible and
03:34
what isn't the bible
03:35
yeah well from a just sort of very basic
03:38
unbiased average secular person could
03:41
even say this what the bible is it's
03:44
it's a sacred text which which means
03:47
it's a it's a collection of documents
03:50
really old documents that a lot of
03:53
people
03:54
in the world view as having some kind of
03:56
religious significance
03:57
that's all it means to be a sacred text
03:59
and there's there's a whole class of
04:01
sacred texts and so
04:03
in that very basic sense the bible is
04:05
one book among many other similar books
04:07
like the quran
04:09
or the bhagavad gita or the book of
04:12
mormon i suppose or
04:14
you know fill in the blank so it's a
04:16
it's a text
04:17
that lots and lots of people have found
04:20
to be
04:20
spiritually significant in their
04:22
religious practices
04:24
and it's a text that both jews and
04:26
christians would claim
04:28
is a unique place where god has been
04:31
revealed to humans
04:32
now the thing that i that i find
04:35
interesting about
04:36
christianity's sacred text the the bible
04:39
and correct me if i'm wrong kyle or or
04:42
elliot but it
04:43
i don't know of any other sacred text
04:45
that has included
04:46
another faith's sacred text into its
04:49
sacred texts did you follow the the line
04:52
there
04:53
yeah we don't think of this often
04:55
because the old testament to us
04:56
is the old testament it's christian's
05:00
sacred text but really it's
05:03
the jewish people's sacred text that we
05:06
as coming from the jewish heritage
05:08
have taken into our own and that is
05:10
utterly as far as i know utterly unique
05:12
and really fascinating to me
05:14
that we have two religions sacred texts
05:17
that we
05:18
claim as our own uh so i don't know if i
05:20
don't know enough about
05:21
uh world religion to know if if
05:23
christianity's
05:24
sacred text is unique in that aspect i
05:26
mean i know
05:28
buddhism and hinduism have a lot of
05:29
overlap in a lot of ways
05:31
buddhism is a reaction against a certain
05:34
a certain version of hinduism and so
05:36
it's
05:36
it's sacred texts probably do
05:38
incorporate a lot of the hinduistic
05:40
brahman sacred texts but probably not in
05:43
the same way that
05:44
jewish judaism and christianity are
05:47
related so
05:48
we have all of their sacred scriptures
05:51
inside of our sacred scriptures and
05:54
we interpret almost all of it very
05:56
differently than they do
05:58
[Music]
05:59
which is that that probably is unique
06:01
yeah and i mean it's worth
06:03
noting that we are christianity is one
06:05
of three abrahamic religions right and
06:07
so the quran also has
06:09
we share prophets we share leaders we
06:12
share
06:13
spiritual leaders with islam as well
06:16
in in with the quran but i just find it
06:18
fascinating that we
06:20
in christianity have the jewish sacred
06:23
text within our sacred texts it's
06:25
fascinating to me
06:26
and you know i've i've tried to move
06:29
away from referring
06:30
to that portion of the bible as the old
06:33
testament
06:34
because that's a a very
06:36
christian-centric way to look at it you
06:37
know it existed a long time before
06:39
christianity existed
06:40
it's the hebrew scriptures yeah i prefer
06:42
the hebrew scriptures hebrew bible
06:44
yep and the thing that when we think of
06:46
the bible we often think
06:48
of the bible as a book which it isn't
06:51
the bible is not a book the bible is
06:53
this ancient library of books
06:55
and our bible by our i mean protestants
06:59
our bible has 66 books it's a library of
07:01
66 books written over the course of
07:04
let's say 1500 years there's
07:06
disagreement whether it's 1200 years
07:07
1500 years but
07:08
around 1 500 years and then it was
07:10
passed down orally even before that for
07:12
centuries
07:14
i have no idea how long it's a library
07:16
of books that were written in different
07:18
times different centuries different
07:20
cultures different situations
07:23
all sorts of different contexts and we
07:26
bring them together in this one library
07:29
we call the holy scriptures
07:31
all of this still i'm still fascinated
07:33
just saying you know
07:34
like this this has got me this is super
07:37
fascinating super interesting even if i
07:39
wasn't a
07:39
christian this would be fascinating to
07:41
me that this is how the sacred text came
07:43
together
07:44
because i think that's a pretty unique
07:46
story as well
07:48
and so so far it doesn't seem like
07:50
you've said anything
07:52
controversial or i mean this is all
07:55
basic facts right that
07:56
anybody could wikipedia and find out but
07:59
just calling it a library
08:01
already probably would be enough if if
08:04
the implications were understood
08:06
would be enough to make a lot of
08:08
fundamentalists
08:10
pretty uncomfortable i think so because
08:12
because you don't read a library
08:14
you you walk into a library and you see
08:16
all the books there and you pull one off
08:18
the shelf and you read it
08:19
you don't you're not going to read every
08:20
book there the same way and you're not
08:23
going to approach each book there with
08:24
all the same expectations
08:26
you're going to recognize that in a
08:27
library there are all the books that are
08:29
organized by sections
08:31
yep and they have genres they have types
08:33
and the types are
08:35
importantly different from each other
08:37
i'm not going to pull down
08:38
the his the history factual history
08:41
section
08:42
and read that book the same way as i
08:44
would a book i pulled out of the poetry
08:46
section
08:46
i would i would take have very different
08:48
expectations of those books
08:50
and yet it's very common among
08:52
fundamentalist christianity
08:54
to approach the bible as though all the
08:57
books had the same kind of significance
08:59
and were of the same type and intended
09:01
all the same things but that's just not
09:02
the case i mean you have
09:04
a whole range of different types of
09:05
literature contained within the bible
09:09
and let's be i would say let's go
09:12
you know not just single out the fundies
09:13
but i would say just
09:15
in general christians who take a more
09:18
simplistic
09:19
approach to the scriptures would just
09:22
read the bible for the
09:23
the same way whether you're reading
09:25
genesis or whether you're reading you
09:26
know for a lot of them
09:27
that's that's perfectly understandable
09:29
because
09:30
nobody's ever told them they shouldn't i
09:32
mean the bible is presented to us
09:34
usually in sunday school contexts in
09:36
american christianity as
09:38
a book a book that we can read from
09:41
beginning to end and we can even have
09:42
like a year-long plan where we read this
09:44
part and then we skip over to this part
09:46
and then you know we read a couple
09:47
chapters here in a couple chapters there
09:48
totally ripped out of their context and
09:51
and we read it through like we would
09:52
any any text that didn't have all of the
09:55
differences that this one has
09:56
right and that's something you mentioned
09:58
sunday school that's that's something
09:59
that i've been thinking about these last
10:01
couple days today in particular as i
10:02
thought about
10:03
what we're going to talk about which is
10:05
i feel like
10:06
most a vast majority of christ followers
10:09
of
10:10
christians let me say have a
10:13
sunday school this is so condescending
10:16
so forgive me
10:17
community but most of us have the way we
10:21
see the scriptures the way we think
10:22
about the scriptures the way we engage
10:23
the scriptures the way we
10:25
read the scriptures most of that is
10:28
formed in sunday school
10:29
and it doesn't go too far beyond that to
10:31
be honest with you
10:33
a lot of our understandings are shaped
10:35
by
10:36
very simplistic understandings of the
10:38
scriptures and
10:39
we get stuck there and then we think
10:41
that that's the gospel truth because so
10:43
many of us just think that this is the
10:44
way you handle and approach and read and
10:46
apply the scriptures
10:48
yeah about i have a whole set of
10:50
thoughts about sunday school
10:52
i'm gonna get started on that all right
10:54
we'll keep understanding there's
10:55
something fundamentally wrong
10:57
with uh supposed educational
11:02
program where the teachers are chosen at
11:04
random
11:05
[Laughter]
11:07
or or they rotate based on uh you know
11:10
who's in the class which is every sunday
11:12
school class i've ever been in
11:13
no expectation whatsoever there's no
11:15
expectation whatsoever for any kind of
11:17
qualification or training or expertise
11:19
for sunday school teachers in any church
11:21
i've ever been to or heard of
11:23
yep um so so automatically we know
11:26
something has gone wrong
11:28
it's true and but to let church leaders
11:30
off the hook
11:31
being a church leader sometimes you just
11:33
got to take what you get
11:34
because not a whole lot of people want
11:36
to be sunday school teachers let's just
11:38
be honest so
11:39
sure fair enough so so we have a
11:42
library ancient library of books
11:46
let's say with including the oral
11:48
tradition
11:49
a couple of millennia old with all sorts
11:52
of genres
11:53
all sorts of writers all sorts of
11:54
authors more authors than we
11:56
think and by we i mean common you know
11:59
christians
12:00
people in the church and let's let's
12:03
think about what the bible is for
12:05
us as christians for most
12:08
christians what how people see the bible
12:10
what the bible is
12:11
for us right and i would say mostly for
12:14
many christians many protestants well
12:17
only protestants catholics wouldn't have
12:19
this view of the scriptures but
12:20
for most of us good protestants the
12:23
scriptures are
12:24
pretty much can i say everything for our
12:26
faith
12:27
it's the thing that the whole thing is
12:30
based off of
12:31
it's the only place where we get our
12:33
theology it's the only place where we
12:35
get our formative picture of who god is
12:38
it's it's this thing that we hold up and
12:41
esteem as our final authority solo
12:43
script tour we've been given for martin
12:44
luther god bless him what does that mean
12:46
randy
12:47
scripture alone right it means that and
12:50
this is at a really good place
12:52
martin luther rejected this um idea that
12:56
clergy could tell us what to do out of
12:59
something that's not based on scripture
13:00
and taking the scripture out of the
13:02
church's hands is a bad idea and so
13:04
martin luther probably overswung a
13:06
little bit right where
13:07
solos scripture is a great idea but
13:11
i would say we protestants put a little
13:13
too much weight and sometimes a lot too
13:15
much weight
13:16
on this on the authority of scriptures
13:18
and i'm just talking as
13:19
somebody who because i believe in the
13:21
holy spirit and the the right now word
13:23
of the holy spirit so
13:25
but you get this picture i'm painting
13:26
right that for many christians for most
13:28
christians the bible is
13:29
the whole dang thing and i would say
13:32
sometimes it's
13:33
like the third member of the trinity we
13:34
forget about the holy spirit and it's
13:36
father son and holy scriptures sounds
13:39
like you think that's bad
13:42
i do i do yeah i've um
13:45
i mean really a lot of my background
13:48
spiritual background is
13:49
in this camp and
13:52
it breaks down over time to be honest
13:53
with you uh doesn't
13:55
doesn't last and also it's it lends
13:58
itself to this thing that scholars would
14:00
call
14:00
bibliolatry bibliolatry being that we
14:03
make
14:04
an idol out of the bible and we hold it
14:05
above even god himself
14:08
and we bow down and worship the bible
14:10
and we have all sorts of
14:12
strains of christianity where we call
14:14
ourselves berean
14:15
or we call ourselves you know the the
14:17
true church who follows
14:19
we we have this the way we interpret the
14:21
scriptures
14:22
is the way to interpret the scriptures
14:24
there's all sorts of brands within
14:25
christianity that
14:27
that talk like this and it makes me
14:29
super uncomfortable i'm sure you're not
14:30
super comfortable with it either kyle
14:33
i'm not how could you tell yeah
14:36
i mean that that's that's every
14:38
christian tradition as far as i can tell
14:40
i mean
14:41
there is no there's no denomination
14:43
without this is the correct
14:45
interpretation of the bible
14:47
sure sure at least within catholicism it
14:50
seems to be
14:51
there's more room for argument about
14:53
some things
14:54
well yeah because they would say their
14:57
main authority isn't the church it's the
14:58
pope
14:59
and it's the the priesthood basically
15:02
but it's i guess you're free as a
15:04
catholic you're free
15:05
to argue with the pope uh in most
15:09
contexts
15:10
you know if the pope says something
15:13
about the bible
15:14
like it's important and you have to
15:15
listen to it but the the range of
15:18
contexts in which it is your duty to
15:20
just accept it and obey yes it's fairly
15:22
small
15:23
it's kind of a kind of a that a lot of
15:26
people have about catholicism
15:27
well for crying out loud i mean there's
15:29
there's all sorts of catholics who want
15:30
to assassinate
15:31
francis right now as we speak and i'm
15:33
vlogging about this
15:36
well well somebody like me that's almost
15:39
secular it's
15:40
like super excited about uh this current
15:42
oh i hope francis lives for a really
15:44
long time
15:45
it's funny to me it's ironic that that a
15:48
lot of protestants view
15:49
the catholic church as more rigid
15:51
because of the pope and because of the
15:53
really
15:54
clear hierarchy but their ability to
15:57
process and interpret scripture together
15:59
as a community is a lot freer
16:01
than what i've observed in a lot of
16:02
protestant traditions sure as far as
16:04
scripture
16:04
i would definitely say the clericalism
16:06
and the the authority
16:08
of tradition and papal authority
16:11
is much much higher in in the catholic
16:14
church i mean we protestants have been
16:15
taught to so the
16:17
religious structure obviously sets it
16:19
apart from
16:20
protestant dominations but i mean
16:24
some a microcosm of that exists in a lot
16:26
of protestant denominations too i mean i
16:28
i came from a particular brand of
16:31
pentecostalism
16:33
where the leader of the local church
16:35
might as well have been the pope
16:36
yep yep because i mean you and
16:38
everything he said was ex cathedral
16:41
it was it wasn't like uh you're free to
16:44
question any of it i mean
16:45
the the hierarchy was every bit as rigid
16:48
and even less free
16:50
in that tradition that's fair yep which
16:52
i'm not sure if we'll keep any of this
16:53
because we could talk about the catholic
16:54
yes for another time yeah
16:58
yep so decide what you want people to
17:00
get mad at you for exactly
17:02
yeah so for many many christians
17:06
the the bible is the end-all be-all it's
17:08
everything it's the authority it's the
17:10
final word it's the final authority
17:12
and then for many others the bible is
17:15
actually the main reason why they left
17:16
the christian faith
17:17
right yeah i mean i've met quite a few
17:20
of these people
17:21
i've come close to being one of these
17:22
people part part of it i think a big
17:25
part of it
17:26
is that it's not so much the text itself
17:28
that drives people
17:30
out of the church sometimes it does and
17:32
we can talk about some of the reasons
17:34
for that as we go on
17:35
uh but it's the the certainty about the
17:38
text
17:38
yes that a lot of these traditions
17:42
exhibit that the text has to mean this
17:45
that we're totally sure that it means
17:46
this and that if you see it a different
17:49
way
17:50
you're somehow deluded or deceived or
17:52
maybe even sinful
17:53
something like that and often in those
17:55
kinds of contexts what the text has to
17:57
mean
17:58
is something really judgmental and
17:59
really exclusivist
18:01
and so you know the text might have to
18:03
mean
18:04
for example that somebody who exists in
18:08
a certain
18:09
socioeconomic position
18:12
is automatically more prone to sin
18:15
or somehow second class or somehow
18:18
marginal
18:20
and if you happen to exist in that space
18:22
whatever it is
18:23
and you don't read the bible in that way
18:25
then there's just not room
18:27
for there's no room in that tradition
18:29
that kind of tradition for you to
18:30
express what the bible is to you
18:33
and and to to be someone who is
18:35
passionate about god
18:37
who is even really in love with
18:40
the way god is presented in the new
18:42
testament through jesus
18:44
but then to be given a really
18:47
rigid paradigm for what the bible has to
18:49
be it's very difficult in a tradition
18:51
like that
18:52
to love the bible it's very difficult to
18:55
love
18:56
god because you're told that what god
18:57
has presented in this text and here are
18:59
the ways that you must read this text
19:01
and those ways are exclusionary to
19:02
people like you and so
19:04
for lots and lots of people people from
19:06
my generation and later ones in
19:08
particular
19:09
if if that's what god is like then we're
19:11
just
19:12
not interested and we end up leaving all
19:15
together
19:15
i feel like what by and large what the
19:18
church gives
19:20
you know the leaders in the church give
19:22
everybody is this idea
19:24
that it's all or nothing right you have
19:26
to believe
19:27
everything it's all literal it's all
19:29
infallible it's all
19:30
inherent it's all correct and
19:34
everything has to stand everything has
19:37
to work together
19:38
everything has to build on it each
19:41
one bit built on the other and if you
19:43
don't believe this one thing about it or
19:45
if you have a problem or an issue with
19:46
this other thing about it
19:48
then you're out of the church then
19:50
you're out of the club then now you're
19:52
in dangerous territory right and so i
19:54
think that's what a lot of people have a
19:55
hard time with
19:56
i know plenty of people who love jesus
19:59
who love the gospels
20:00
who like lots of the new testament who
20:02
like a decent amount in the old
20:04
testament but there's stuff that they
20:05
just can't get around
20:06
for one reason or another and they're
20:08
told it's kind of all or nothing
20:10
love it or leave it and i think that's
20:11
the reason why a lot of people have left
20:13
the church is because they've been given
20:14
this ultimatum
20:16
that they just can't buy anymore and i
20:18
know there's
20:19
there's probably a good amount of more
20:22
conservative christians who are
20:24
already you got your hackles up already
20:27
you're already on
20:28
on the edge of your seat getting ready
20:29
to write us off as heretics you can do
20:31
that
20:32
the first thing i want you to do i'm
20:33
going to ask you is to listen to this
20:35
episode and probably the next episode
20:36
because it's probably going to be
20:37
two-parter
20:38
just listen to the whole thing before
20:39
you write us off before you hear one
20:40
little thing that makes you think that
20:42
throw throw that h word at us so that's
20:44
for us in particular
20:46
and then if we get to the end of these
20:47
two episodes and you think we're
20:48
heretics god bless you we love you
20:50
you know let's go our separate ways or
20:53
you can keep listening and send us awful
20:54
emails and
20:55
that's great too but here's what i'm
20:58
i've got an ulterior motive
20:59
in some ways with this episode i would
21:02
love
21:03
to paint a picture of a more inclusive
21:06
way to hold the scriptures
21:08
that isn't going to make a whole
21:10
generation
21:11
of the church leave the church i believe
21:14
that the way
21:15
the way the church by and large the
21:16
protestant church
21:18
is passing down our understanding of the
21:20
scriptures is actually
21:22
turning most young people off they don't
21:25
have room for it they can't get their
21:26
minds around it they have
21:28
they don't buy the the sales pitch that
21:31
prior generations have and they're
21:32
leaving like the the stats are just
21:34
obvious this is i'm not talking any
21:36
biases here i'm just talking
21:39
stats i'm talking data young people are
21:41
leaving the church in droves and i'm
21:43
fairly convinced that one of the main
21:44
reasons is because the way we tell them
21:47
to approach the scriptures and to handle
21:48
the scriptures and to believe about the
21:49
scriptures
21:50
and so here's my ulterior motive could
21:53
we
21:54
actually in the church present a
21:56
different way for engaging with
21:59
and in in applying and living out
22:02
the scriptures in a way that actually
22:04
allows for some space for people
22:06
to be themselves to ask the hard
22:08
questions
22:09
and to approach the bible from an
22:11
authentic vulnerable
22:13
honest place rather than have it forced
22:15
on our throats in a way that we just
22:17
are going to gag up and walk away
22:21
yeah and if it had been presented to me
22:25
in that way when i was a kid
22:28
i think my relationship with it now
22:30
would be quite different
22:31
how so i don't have what a lot of
22:35
christians like to call a high view of
22:37
scripture
22:39
anymore there are as many problems i
22:42
have with it as
22:42
as things i love about it and i don't
22:45
read it regularly i haven't read it
22:47
regularly for years
22:49
and i i don't feel in any way guilty
22:51
about that
22:52
i still remember all the things i knew
22:54
about it and all the things i learned in
22:55
sunday school and i can carry an
22:57
intelligent conversation
22:58
about just about any part of it because
23:00
i've read it many times but
23:03
yeah i can't say i really respect it as
23:05
a
23:06
as a sacred text that much anymore
23:09
and i think it's probably because of
23:11
what you just described it was
23:14
presented to me in a really rigid way uh
23:16
in a really exclusionary way
23:18
the interpretation i was given of it
23:21
didn't withstand scrutiny even
23:22
even the barest most sort of
23:25
introductory level amount of scrutiny
23:28
i mean it's not hard to figure out that
23:30
there are contradictions in the bible
23:32
like even a just sort of unbiased
23:34
reading of the gospels
23:35
you just notice things like well here it
23:37
says there were two angels
23:39
and here there were three or whatever it
23:41
is and and then you ask about that and
23:43
it's either shut down
23:44
or they explain it away but not in a
23:46
really convincing way
23:48
and deep critical discussion about that
23:50
is not usually welcomed
23:52
and at least in the evangelical context
23:54
that i grew up in
23:55
you're never allowed to get to the place
23:57
where you admit
23:58
that this text is not perfect and not
24:01
only is it not perfect it has some like
24:03
serious flaws
24:04
that if it were any other text we would
24:07
notice those flaws immediately
24:10
like we're going to talk later about
24:12
violence in the bible
24:13
like a christian can read the quran
24:15
notice all the violence
24:17
and be horrified but somehow they read
24:19
the old testament
24:20
and they don't notice or they feel like
24:23
they can
24:23
easily explain it away when it's just as
24:26
bad
24:27
i mean from a totally unbiased
24:29
perspective there's no difference
24:31
and so if there had been more like
24:34
willingness to engage those questions as
24:35
i was learning what the bible was
24:38
i'd probably have a lot higher respect
24:39
for it now yeah yeah that
24:41
i mean i appreciate your honesty and it
24:43
also makes me sad to hear
24:45
you say the words you know you don't
24:47
have much respect for it as a sacred
24:49
text so
24:50
um but i appreciate the honesty so we've
24:53
talked about what the bible is
24:54
and the bible is different things to
24:55
different people let's talk about what
24:57
the bible is not because this is a
24:59
really important
25:00
thing to think about i think what what
25:02
the bible is not because we
25:04
we make it into all sorts of things that
25:06
things that it is not which you've been
25:07
speaking to a lot kyle but
25:09
um i think something good to hear here's
25:12
a way that i think
25:13
many christians see the bible
25:16
and when you say how did how did the
25:18
bible the inspiration of the bible
25:20
happen how did god give us his word
25:22
i'm going to just start talking in some
25:23
churchy language i think most people
25:25
when you close your eyes and you imagine
25:27
it
25:27
you imagine it being this like
25:30
beautifully
25:31
lowered book that's gift wrapped in the
25:34
most dazzling
25:35
white gift wrap you could ever imagine
25:37
with a golden
25:38
golden ribbon on it that's from heaven
25:40
itself you know and
25:42
it just slowly lands on the altar
25:45
before abraham and there's angels
25:48
singing
25:49
and there's a voice from god saying this
25:51
is my eternal word
25:53
read it and follow everything this is it
25:57
right i mean like i'm putting a little
25:59
cheese behind it a little drama
26:01
behind it but i think that's basically
26:02
what we think is that the bible is this
26:04
clean tidy perfect
26:06
word given from god to mankind so that
26:08
we can know everything that we need to
26:09
know about god everything that's in the
26:11
bible is
26:11
everything about god that that's to be
26:14
known right
26:15
and that's just not the case not even
26:18
close
26:18
i mean the bible is this messy
26:22
book that is has human hand prints
26:26
all over it every single page from front
26:27
to back it's
26:29
it's this book that is complex and
26:32
it's it's kind of a mess in some ways in
26:35
some places you're wondering what's
26:36
going on and in some
26:37
places you're wondering what god is
26:39
doing and what god isn't doing and why
26:40
he's doing something and why he's not
26:42
doing
26:42
another thing in some places you're you
26:45
actually have to actually say
26:47
if you have an honest reflection on the
26:49
bible if you have an honest approach to
26:51
the bible what the hell is going on here
26:53
this seems i've said this before and
26:55
i've gotten heat for it
26:57
but it seems in some ways more like a
26:58
game of thrones episode than it does
27:00
a holy scripture or holy text right
27:03
it's a messy thing this bible that we
27:05
have
27:07
yeah i mean it's funny if if if the old
27:09
testament in particular were
27:10
serialized in a television show it would
27:13
definitely be mature audiences
27:15
it would be like hbo level absolutely
27:18
yep
27:19
i remember my daughter was with some
27:22
family
27:23
who was reading some scripture reading
27:25
in genesis the account of cain and abel
27:28
and you know i haven't hadn't introduced
27:30
my daughter to the story of cain and
27:32
abel yet
27:33
for this reason of what happened but the
27:35
story of cain and abel is written
27:37
and my daughter's into it she's probably
27:40
nine at this point eight or nine and the
27:43
part comes where cain
27:44
kills abel and my daughter is horrified
27:48
she's she has brothers she loves her
27:51
brothers
27:52
and she she hears the story read and
27:54
she's she has this
27:55
vitriolic response to it of like he
27:57
killed him
27:58
and she's disturbed by it i love
28:02
watching kids response to things because
28:04
we get so anesthetized
28:06
and so used to the the the crazy
28:08
scandalous nature of some of these
28:09
stories
28:10
and then you watch a kid hear it for the
28:11
first time and you see oh yeah
28:14
that's a wild violent story i remember
28:16
the first time
28:17
well i don't remember like specifically
28:19
where i was or anything like that but i
28:20
remember it being like
28:21
a kind of shocking realization when i
28:24
thought
28:25
without the sort of blinders that i was
28:27
given about
28:29
the flood story and noah and what
28:32
actually happened
28:34
and because you know in in sunday school
28:36
or vbs or whatever
28:38
that's a that's a really common theme in
28:40
like
28:41
vacation bible school curricula and it's
28:44
always presented with rainbows and
28:45
happiness and the animals on the ark
28:47
so fun delightful and they just skip
28:50
right over the part where god
28:51
kills everybody he didn't have to
28:55
he chose to uh and then he picked
28:58
seemingly arbitrarily one family it's
29:01
like
29:01
you know build the boater you're gone
29:03
too so
29:05
recently a few years back my one of my
29:08
favorite film directors
29:09
darren aronofsky directed the the film
29:12
noah and i was super excited about it
29:14
both because i knew that he was into
29:16
like
29:16
jewish midrash and kabbalah and would do
29:19
it in a really interesting historical
29:20
way
29:21
but also because he's not a christian
29:24
and that is a terrifying story
29:26
and i would really like to see a
29:27
visualization of it that that keeps the
29:29
terror intact
29:30
and it really does so it was a really
29:32
successful film if you haven't seen it
29:34
and the bible's full of stuff like that
29:36
that we just don't notice anymore
29:38
because we were given a particular way
29:39
to read it
29:40
yep my only beef with it is that they
29:42
cast russell crowe as noah that was a
29:44
bit
29:46
i won't argue with you there but i love
29:49
you what i loved about that movie what i
29:51
really loved was
29:53
even knowing the story as well as you do
29:55
it was suspenseful
29:57
like i i didn't know what was going to
29:58
happen at the end yeah he's a great
30:00
filmmaker and that
30:01
i thought that was a good trick so when
30:03
we talk about what the bible isn't
30:04
let's also get this kind of out there
30:07
and this is just all our opinion
30:09
but the bible isn't a book that will
30:11
give you an answer to every single
30:12
question
30:13
or problem i feel like this is what many
30:16
christians
30:17
how many christians see the scriptures
30:19
as well is that it's this guidebook it's
30:21
a textbook
30:22
and everything that we have to know
30:24
about science everything that we know
30:25
have to know about ethics everything
30:26
that we have to know about morals
30:27
everything that we have to know about
30:28
life itself
30:29
how to handle ourselves during anything
30:32
it's got all the answers right in that
30:34
that's how what it was designed to be
30:36
actually that's what god meant it to be
30:38
as a book book of answers
30:40
for every human problem or question and
30:43
that's just not the case either
30:44
if the bible is way better than that
30:46
let's just be honest the bible is way
30:48
better than a book of answers and
30:49
solutions in
30:50
a textbook it's way better and way more
30:52
interesting thank god it's not that but
30:54
it's just not that
30:57
yeah i mean it's more like a novel than
30:59
it is like a textbook
31:00
oh it's not a novel but it's closer to
31:02
that yes
31:04
i mean the idea the way that we even
31:06
think about a textbook
31:08
as this like source manual for objective
31:10
facts about the world
31:12
those ideas didn't even exist like
31:14
people didn't think in that way
31:15
at the time of the writing of the bible
31:19
though those are all post-enlightenment
31:21
ideas the idea that
31:23
the world is this objective thing out
31:25
there that's represented in our minds
31:27
and that we can approach to find out how
31:29
it actually is
31:31
not the way that we look at it but how
31:32
it actually is with a method
31:35
which is which is what gives us the idea
31:37
of a textbook
31:38
that didn't even exist prior to about
31:40
the 17th century
31:42
yep yeah we introduced all sorts of
31:44
problems with our relationship with the
31:45
bible in last two to three hundred years
31:47
i would say
31:47
and let me just say as i say the bible
31:49
is messy the bible's not clean
31:52
tidy neat descended from heaven
31:55
with doves surrounding it i actually
31:57
think that's way better
31:59
i actually love that the bible is messy
32:01
i have some issues with some things in
32:02
there and that makes it a little more
32:04
a lot more complicated but the fact that
32:06
the bible is messy just speaks to the
32:07
way that god works
32:09
in reality as best i know it
32:12
in all ways and shapes and forms being a
32:15
human being is a messy
32:16
experience reality as we know it
32:20
is just one big mess it's beautiful
32:23
it's complex but it's messy it's not
32:27
clean
32:28
in our faith journey if you're honest
32:30
for most of us
32:31
it's a messy and complex thing our faith
32:34
journeys are
32:35
are nuanced and they change and they
32:38
morph
32:39
in what i believed five years ago i have
32:42
a nuance to it now or maybe i don't
32:43
believe that at all anymore
32:45
that's just reality for some of us we
32:47
have to keep it nice and
32:48
boxed in and tightly wrapped and you
32:51
know take all the edges off
32:52
and i would say mo for most of us that's
32:54
you'll come to the end of that
32:56
you gotta you gotta at least work really
32:57
hard to keep that nice tightly wrapped
32:59
theology
33:00
to make that work and you gotta believe
33:02
all sorts of different things about the
33:04
world but
33:04
for me the fact that the bible is messy
33:07
just speaks to the way
33:08
god works with humanity in general it's
33:11
kind of messy it's dirty it's gritty
33:13
but it's beautiful yeah and we're not
33:16
saying
33:17
anything super liberal here either so
33:20
unless it'd be you know understood as
33:22
this
33:24
sort of pie in the sky liberalism or
33:25
something like that i mean
33:28
we're not saying that the bible isn't a
33:30
good source of information
33:32
about a lot of things about god and that
33:34
you know it actually does have some
33:36
important insights on how to relate to
33:37
god
33:38
and maybe even what the world is like
33:39
fundamentally but it's not
33:41
it's not a source text to learn any the
33:44
answer to any question you might have
33:46
and this is not a liberal view in fact
33:49
if i can
33:50
quote here a well-known theologian who
33:52
is certainly no liberal
33:54
so n.t wright recently published an
33:56
op-ed
33:57
in time magazine which i loved it was
33:59
called christianity offers no answers
34:02
about the coronavirus
34:03
and a quote from that he says it is no
34:05
part of the christian vocation
34:07
to be able to explain what's happening
34:10
and why
34:10
in fact it is part of the christian
34:12
vocation
34:14
not to be able to explain and to lament
34:17
instead now we could dig in that could
34:20
be a whole episode on its own what he
34:21
means
34:21
by lament but i mean this is a paragon
34:24
of
34:24
conservative biblical scholarship now
34:27
many conservatives would say
34:28
mentee wright is absolutely liberal but
34:30
that's whatever okay
34:31
fine but to the rest of the world he's a
34:33
conservative
34:35
saying look that's just not what this
34:37
text is for
34:38
to treat it that way actually does
34:40
damage to the kind of document that it
34:42
is
34:42
yep yep absolutely so let's just brush
34:45
on
34:46
the eye words right do you know what i'm
34:48
talking about
34:49
the what in aaron c versus infallibility
34:51
right come on kyle
34:52
jeez you have you've gone way too far
34:55
into academia dude
34:58
that that's a distinction without a
34:59
difference as far as i'm concerned so
35:01
the fact that there's a debate about
35:03
that is kind of silly to me but but go
35:04
ahead
35:05
it's amazing actually yeah that's that's
35:07
a raging debate
35:08
but here's here's where we're going to
35:10
disappoint all those uh people who are
35:12
just like chomping at the bit wondering
35:13
where we land on inerrancy versus
35:15
infallibility
35:16
here's where i am i don't care
35:21
i just don't i feel like that's one of
35:23
those
35:25
old and mostly useless debates
35:28
that a lot of people in the church or a
35:30
lot of people who are done with the
35:32
church
35:32
are really just bored with it's just one
35:34
of those
35:35
things to argue about among christians
35:37
to separate ourselves to differentiate
35:39
ourselves to
35:41
judge one another to try to be right and
35:43
it's one of those arguments that i feel
35:45
like
35:45
you go so far down the rabbit hole you
35:47
don't even believe what you're saying
35:48
anymore but you're trying to actually
35:49
still prove your point right and i just
35:51
think that what is the
35:52
what is the argument what's the
35:54
difference inerrancy would be best
35:56
described as the bible is without
35:58
error in its original texts and it's an
35:59
original manuscripts
36:01
infallibility would be that the bible is
36:03
infallible
36:04
in communicating the purposes of god and
36:06
what god wanted what god wanted the
36:08
bible to communicate it does so
36:10
infallibly
36:11
right so let me see if i understand so
36:13
if you're an inerrantist on that
36:14
definition that you just gave
36:16
you could also admit that the bible was
36:18
not transmitted such
36:20
that its original message was perfectly
36:23
communicated
36:24
i think so probably i mean i'm far
36:26
enough out of that camp
36:27
that i don't remember exactly but i
36:29
think so that's the big caveat
36:30
is in its original manuscripts it's
36:32
inerrant it's without
36:33
error so yeah so from my
36:37
perspective totally outside these
36:38
debates that's almost not different
36:41
at all it's like a hair splitting kind
36:44
of thing but here's another good eye
36:46
word right
36:47
inerrancy infallibility but here's the
36:48
the real
36:50
the real nut to crack inspired or
36:53
inspiration
36:54
right first timothy says that all of god
36:57
all of the scriptures
36:58
is god breathed is inspired and useful
37:01
for correcting and rebuking and teaching
37:04
and all that stuff
37:05
what it what do you think that word
37:09
inspired by god the scriptures were
37:11
inspired by god what does that mean to
37:13
you
37:14
that's a great question i mean the the
37:16
honest answer is i don't know
37:17
it's the best and probably only answer
37:21
yeah i mean i i know that inspiration as
37:24
a concept is just taken from something
37:26
paul said
37:27
it's god breathed no idea what that
37:29
means
37:30
paul didn't elaborate on what that means
37:34
and also as we're going to see later i
37:36
don't feel bound to view the text in the
37:38
way that paul viewed the text
37:39
so my approach to the bible does not
37:41
commit me to
37:42
accepting as authoritative any opinions
37:45
of its authors so paul could have been
37:48
wrong
37:49
about it being god-breathed for for all
37:51
i know
37:52
so when i think about inspiration what
37:54
i'm thinking about is
37:55
is there anything that makes this text
37:57
special
37:57
[Music]
37:59
special in the sense of it gives
38:02
unique access to god or maybe not even
38:04
unique
38:05
it gives access to god in in ways
38:08
that not just any text would and i think
38:11
the answer to that is probably yeah
38:13
but i think probably also because it
38:15
tells us about jesus
38:16
and jesus is god so in that sense any
38:19
text about
38:20
jesus would give us the kind of access
38:23
to god that the bible does
38:25
and that by the way includes some texts
38:26
that are not in the bible
38:28
so for example the gospel of thomas i
38:31
take to be
38:32
more or less on the same level as far as
38:34
inspiration as
38:35
some of the stuff that made it into the
38:36
new testament it just gives us access to
38:38
that guy jesus
38:39
but it wasn't canonized and that's a
38:42
historical accident as far as i can tell
38:44
so inspiration to me comes down to does
38:47
this
38:48
text actually make space for a human
38:50
being
38:51
to encounter the presence in the spirit
38:53
of god
38:55
and it seems like often the answer for
38:57
the bible is yes but in many other cases
38:59
the answer is
39:00
no and the answer is not the same for
39:03
all of the texts in the bible
39:05
yeah i mean when i think of
39:08
something being inspired or god breathed
39:12
i go back to the to the upper room where
39:15
the disciples are
39:16
you know post-crucifixion and not post
39:19
resurrection even though they don't know
39:20
it and all of a sudden jesus just shows
39:21
up in the room
39:23
and they're all blown away and they're
39:25
all emotional and they're all
39:26
like don't know what to think probably
39:28
some of them are wondering if this is an
39:29
aberration or a ghost or
39:31
the real deal whatever all this stuff
39:33
and if you remember
39:35
it says that jesus breathed on them
39:39
and it didn't it's not that they all
39:41
turned perfect when jesus breathed on
39:43
them
39:44
but he breathed on them for this purpose
39:46
and
39:48
for me this scripture as being god
39:50
breathed to me sounds like god breathing
39:52
on this
39:53
on this process on this on these
39:56
writings and empowering in some way
39:58
and inspiring in some way and
40:01
really i think this inspiration of the
40:04
scriptures is an
40:05
ongoing thing because i believe that the
40:07
holy spirit
40:08
is an ongoing ever-present counselor
40:11
guide equipper
40:12
you name it and so i think part of the
40:14
inspiration of scriptures comes down to
40:16
our engagement with it
40:17
and the spirit's testimony back to us
40:19
does this make sense what i'm saying
40:21
and so inspiration of the scriptures
40:23
happened
40:24
probably maybe as it was writing i've
40:26
had moments where i felt
40:27
inspired you know really and i'm not
40:30
saying that i
40:31
couldn't write some scriptures not that
40:32
inspired but i've had moments where i
40:34
feel like the holy spirit is speaking to
40:35
me and through me
40:37
and then i have had all sorts of moments
40:38
where it's just pure randy and i
40:40
and i think that's how when we think
40:42
about the inspiration of the scriptures
40:43
too many of us think of
40:44
marionettes or puppets that god just
40:47
kind of the holy spirit
40:48
embodies and comes into in just every
40:51
single word
40:52
is the word of god from god from the
40:53
spirit and all of a sudden
40:55
they they put down their pen and whoa
40:57
that was weird you know
40:58
that's not at all how i think that
41:00
happened as a matter of fact just read
41:02
the new testament
41:03
paul didn't think he was writing the
41:04
scriptures he just thought he was
41:05
writing
41:06
to these churches in the early church in
41:08
asia minor in
41:09
you know in the middle east he thought
41:12
he was just writing to correct some
41:13
things and to do all these things
41:15
over the course of time we see that as
41:16
inspired over the course of time we see
41:18
this as
41:19
important and more important than other
41:21
books and i think that even that
41:23
canonization process
41:24
could have been and probably was
41:25
inspired by the holy spirit guided by
41:27
the holy spirit shaped
41:28
in and moved by the holy spirit do i
41:31
think that was a perfect process
41:33
not at all do i think that was inspired
41:35
by god and intentionally happened in
41:37
some way shape or form
41:38
for sure so i think inspiration of
41:41
scripture is a thing that's been it's
41:42
not a static
41:43
thing it's a dynamic thing it was
41:46
happening
41:46
and it still is happening god
41:49
illuminating the scriptures to us
41:50
through the holy spirit
41:51
yeah yeah that appeals more to me i mean
41:53
the most the most inspirational
41:56
use of scripture that i've experienced
41:57
has always occurred in the context of
41:59
the community getting together to talk
42:01
about
42:02
some aspect of them and to let it inform
42:05
their own experience with
42:06
with the holy spirit and i have had a
42:09
handful of
42:10
experiences with groups of people like
42:12
that
42:13
that i'd be fine calling inspired
42:15
because i felt like god was there
42:18
you know literally there in her midst
42:20
and that that was evidenced by all the
42:21
fruits of the spirit that you see listed
42:23
in
42:24
in the new testament if that's what
42:25
inspiration is then i have i have no
42:27
trouble believing that something similar
42:28
happened in the early church
42:30
at the time that these documents were
42:31
written and disseminated
42:33
i have a harder time thinking that
42:36
whatever inspiration means it's
42:38
something qualitatively different than
42:40
anything
42:40
any current christian could experience
42:43
interesting that
42:44
seems just unmotivated
42:47
to me okay and also not really what you
42:49
find in the text itself
42:50
sure i mean i think and i say i think
42:52
because you know i haven't thought about
42:54
this much but i think i disagree with
42:55
you there
42:56
i think the scriptures there's some
42:58
things that god
42:59
says i want to make sure that this has
43:01
my life on it
43:02
more than others something this document
43:04
that's been passed down this
43:05
library of books that's been passed down
43:07
for millennia makes sense to me that
43:09
there'd be a little bit extra special
43:10
sauce on that thing
43:11
but i don't know would you say it's a
43:13
different dispensation
43:15
oh no i did not say that thanks for
43:17
asking and clarifying that
43:20
we'll go into that in another episode or
43:22
not or not or we won't ever
43:24
yeah thank you good
43:27
so we talked about what is the bible
43:29
bible's different things for different
43:30
people
43:32
what isn't the bible we've talked about
43:34
the big
43:35
i words inerrancy infallibility
43:37
inspiration all that
43:39
let's talk about perhaps how to approach
43:42
your
43:43
what i would say hold the bible this is
43:45
the way that a more contemplative way of
43:47
how do we hold this how do we how do we
43:49
approach the bible how do we see it how
43:50
do we
43:51
hold all of the stuff all of the mess
43:54
all of the genres
43:55
all of the authors all of the problems
43:58
with it all the contradictions
44:00
all the violence all the beauty all the
44:02
goodness all the inspiration
44:04
how do we how do we hold it and approach
44:05
it what's a healthier way to do that
44:08
oh my goodness um maybe it's best that i
44:11
go first i'll say all the
44:12
the liberal um potentially heretical
44:16
things
44:16
faith shattering definitely heretical
44:18
not potentially heretical things
44:20
and then you can you can bring it you
44:22
can reel it back in got it
44:24
good good plan so
44:27
i i often when i'm teaching intro to
44:30
philosophy
44:32
to illustrate the difference between
44:34
philosophy and religion
44:35
because a lot of students come in
44:37
assuming that they're more or less the
44:38
same thing
44:39
depending on you know the faith
44:41
tradition that they have
44:43
and i still have family members who
44:44
think that i do some kind of ministry
44:47
or that i do some kind of theology or
44:50
religious thinking
44:51
oh bless your heart super super common
44:54
uh among a lot of church traditions in
44:56
the united states to see philosophy as
44:58
kind of an arm of
44:59
theology or something like that so the
45:01
way i
45:02
distinguish it from my students and i
45:04
rely here on the philosopher named
45:05
bertrand russell
45:06
who was an atheist for for what it's
45:08
worth there's
45:10
there's something that religion has that
45:12
philosophy
45:13
does not and that thing is authority
45:16
particularly intellectual authority
45:20
so in every revealed religious tradition
45:23
that i'm aware of
45:24
there is some kind of authority
45:26
structure
45:27
and what that means is there's some
45:31
point it might be a person it might be a
45:33
group of people
45:34
it might be a text or a particular
45:36
interpretation of a text
45:38
but there's some point that everyone in
45:40
that community traces their beliefs back
45:42
to
45:43
and that's where the buck stops so if
45:46
you're catholic and the pope
45:48
declares let's say it's an official
45:50
ex-cathedra declaration
45:51
or a papal bull or something you know
45:54
this is the case
45:56
then if i'm a catholic my intellectual
45:59
responsibility my obligation
46:01
is to believe that thing if if i'm not a
46:04
catholic i'm any christian
46:06
it's not open to me to disagree with
46:08
jesus
46:09
if jesus says this is what god is like
46:11
then if i'm a christian jesus is my
46:14
authority so it's not open to me to
46:15
disagree with that this is true in every
46:17
religion they're just about every
46:19
everything that gets classed as a
46:20
religion there's some kind of authority
46:22
structure
46:22
that doesn't exist in philosophy we
46:25
don't have authorities
46:26
uh the the only author the only
46:28
authority is your own reason
46:30
though the whole tradition of western
46:31
philosophy since socrates
46:33
began as a kind of
46:36
rational critique of religious authority
46:39
so
46:40
i'm in kind of a weird position when a
46:42
book is presented to me as authoritative
46:45
and yet i'm committed intellectually and
46:49
i believe morally
46:50
to an approach to knowledge that is
46:53
anti-authority
46:55
from its in its dna anti-authority so
46:58
that means i don't take the bible or any
47:00
other text as authoritative
47:02
over my beliefs i don't take the
47:04
testimony of any individual
47:06
as authoritative over my beliefs in fact
47:08
i think it's irrational and ultimately
47:10
incoherent to do so
47:12
so this this puts me on a very different
47:14
footing than than most christians
47:16
approaching the bible but i don't think
47:17
it removes its value entirely
47:20
and so there's a way that i have found
47:22
of approaching the text that i find very
47:24
helpful and i actually draw it from an
47:25
evangelical an evangelical
47:27
uh paragon of evangelical theology john
47:30
wesley
47:31
shout out to wesley yeah now i don't
47:33
accept it in the way that he said it
47:35
because he's not an authority for me
47:36
either
47:38
but i'm stealing i'm stealing the idea
47:40
from him uh and it's
47:41
it's come to be called the wesleyan
47:43
quadrilateral
47:44
and it's this idea that wesley had which
47:47
is remarkably progressive i think
47:49
that the way you should do theology and
47:52
forgive me my wesleyan friends if i'm
47:54
butchering this but
47:56
the way you should do theology has kind
47:58
of four parts to it or you might view it
48:00
as
48:01
your faith is a stool with four legs and
48:04
one of those legs
48:05
is the bible so the the revealed text
48:08
of sacred scripture another of those
48:11
legs is tradition
48:13
what people in your tradition and it
48:15
might even be your local tradition but
48:17
it might be the tradition all the way
48:18
back to the beginning of the church
48:20
what what other christians have
48:21
understood about that text
48:23
and about god that's tradition but then
48:25
he said there's two other legs though
48:27
there's experience
48:29
so wesley is very famous for making your
48:32
experience of god central
48:34
to the you know what christianity ought
48:37
to be
48:38
so there's your experience and then
48:39
there's also reason
48:42
and these things need to be in agreement
48:44
now where i part from wesley is he would
48:47
he put most of the emphasis still on the
48:49
bible right that's the big wheel
48:50
he was it wasn't soulless scripture uh
48:52
so much as primo scripture
48:54
the bible is the most important thing
48:57
and then all those other things have to
48:58
agree with it
49:00
uh and when they do then you have a
49:01
robust theology but when they don't you
49:04
should defer to scripture
49:05
i would modify that because i'm a
49:07
philosopher and say
49:09
no in fact the reason and experienced
49:12
legs of the stool carry most of the
49:14
weight
49:15
there's very many reasons for that we
49:17
can get into some more of them maybe in
49:18
the next episode
49:19
but for me the bible is authoritative
49:23
only in the same sense
49:24
that the rest of my experience conformed
49:27
to my reason
49:29
is authoritative so i think about the
49:32
bible
49:32
as a kind of evidence it's
49:36
it's a set of evidence a set of really
49:38
good evidence i think
49:40
about what god is like but it's not the
49:42
only set of evidence
49:43
there's lots of other evidence and i
49:44
have to wait as a rational person with
49:46
my own set of experiences i have to
49:48
weigh it
49:49
against those other sets of evidence and
49:51
i'm still a christian partially because
49:53
i think it gives me good
49:55
and undefeated evidence
49:58
about what god is really like but
50:01
viewing it in that way does not mean
50:02
that i have to take all of it
50:04
to be totally accurate and it and it
50:07
it also means that anything i find in it
50:10
can be overcome by better evidence
50:12
just like i live the rest of my life so
50:15
it's kind of a scientific or forensic
50:17
approach to the bible i guess
50:19
but i find it to be very helpful and it
50:20
helps me deal with a lot of really
50:22
questions that are really controversial
50:24
for for a lot of other christians that i
50:26
don't think actually need to be
50:27
controversial because often we're we're
50:30
using the bible as though it gives
50:32
better evidence than it does
50:34
about a lot of issues so if we want to
50:37
get really nerdy about it i i think of
50:38
this as kind of
50:40
my own copernican turn here's what that
50:42
means so there's a
50:44
philosopher named immanuel kant who
50:47
is famous for always famous for a lot of
50:50
things but
50:50
the main thing he's famous for in the
50:52
history of philosophy
50:54
is taking the emphasis of philosophers
50:57
away from
50:58
metaphysics which means trying to figure
51:01
out the way the world really is
51:03
fundamentally on its own
51:05
and putting the emphasis instead on
51:09
what is the structure of the mind like
51:12
such that we have the experiences that
51:15
we do
51:16
and he said look a lot of the problems
51:18
that philosophers are dealing with and
51:20
not making any progress on
51:22
in metaphysics what is the world really
51:24
like those problems
51:26
are due to the fact that they think they
51:28
can get out of their own
51:31
minds that they think they can actually
51:34
access the way the world really is on
51:36
its own
51:38
and they're missing the fact that
51:40
they're limited
51:42
by the structure of their own
51:43
experiences
51:45
and so for kant all i could really know
51:48
anything about it all
51:50
is how things appear to me he called
51:52
this the phenomenal
51:53
world and it's the whole world it's
51:56
everything that we can access
51:58
you can't actually know anything about
51:59
the world as it exists outside of
52:02
the way that it appears to you and so
52:05
uh for some basic philosophical reasons
52:07
my experience and my reason
52:10
are primary even if i think i'm
52:13
accessing something
52:14
out there in the real world i'm still
52:16
accessing it through the
52:18
forms of the structures of my mind that
52:21
allow me to
52:22
access that kind of information and so
52:25
for that very abstract reason
52:27
i just can't get on board with the idea
52:29
that
52:30
the bible could be ultimately
52:32
authoritative because
52:34
i can understand it in one way somebody
52:36
else can understand it in a different
52:38
way that contradicts the way that i
52:39
understand it
52:41
and there's no way to access the
52:44
objective reality about it
52:46
because i can't step outside of my
52:48
interpretive
52:49
experience and they can't step outside
52:51
of theirs and so we're stuck
52:53
what do we do and and that's the end of
52:56
the story as far as far as i can tell
52:58
it's very
52:58
kind of disappointing end of the story
53:00
but like nobody can actually ascend to
53:02
the god's eye view of things and say
53:04
here's the correct interpretation
53:06
so and he called that the copernican
53:08
turn because he says it's kind of like
53:10
what happened with copernicus
53:12
because everybody up to copernicus had
53:14
been assuming that the earth was
53:16
stationary
53:17
and that everything moved around it and
53:19
then they were trying to figure out why
53:20
stuff moved the way it did with that
53:21
assumption
53:22
and they failed and then copernicus said
53:24
well what if we assume
53:26
that we move too that we're the thing
53:28
that's moving and that stuff out there
53:30
is stationary
53:31
it turns the focus back on us that's
53:33
what khan did and i think that's what we
53:34
have to do with the bible if we're going
53:35
to use it
53:36
responsibly so for all
53:40
you beloved conservatives out there who
53:43
are throwing kyle
53:45
out there to the heretical wolves i'll
53:47
just you can do that if you want but
53:48
i'll just encourage you
53:50
to i'll just ask you can we
53:54
hold different views of the scripture
53:56
fundamentally different
53:58
ways that make us a little bit insecure
53:59
even
54:01
and ways that offend us a little bit
54:04
and can we hold that space together can
54:07
we do
54:08
what the scriptures tell us which is
54:11
walk and live in the way of agape love
54:13
rather than walking in the way of being
54:15
right
54:17
so i'll just encourage you to to live
54:19
into
54:20
that way that jesus and the apostles
54:22
encouraged us to which
54:24
is to say i'm not going to throw you to
54:26
the heretical wolves i'm going to love
54:27
you
54:28
i'm going to listen and i'm going to ask
54:30
the holy spirit for some
54:31
guidance and direction along the way
54:34
already there randy you're putting more
54:36
weight on your experience and your
54:37
reason than you are
54:38
oh shut up kyle because uh
54:42
most of christian tradition it would
54:43
have been the right and recommended
54:44
thing to do to literally throw me to the
54:46
wolves
54:47
there you go there you go good good good
54:50
i like it so let's uh why don't you reel
54:53
it back in
54:56
tell us maybe a more moderate take on
54:59
what do you think a healthy way to
55:00
approach the bible is
55:01
sure for a long time i was i got
55:05
fairly uncomfortable with referring to
55:06
the scriptures as the word of god
55:09
that's the way a lot of christians refer
55:11
to the scriptures the word of god
55:13
and you could argue that the scriptures
55:15
at some point refer to itself as the
55:16
word of god or
55:18
the writers of the scriptures do now
55:20
what the writers of scriptures were
55:21
referring to is the old testament
55:23
because they didn't have the new
55:24
testament at that point but that's not
55:26
the point
55:27
my point is the reason that i got
55:28
uncomfortable with referring to the
55:30
scriptures of the word of god is because
55:32
the apostle john
55:33
the beloved disciple he when he would
55:36
talk about the word of god if you would
55:37
say what's the word of god
55:38
to john he would say well duh the word
55:41
of god is jesus
55:43
jesus is the divine logos jesus is the
55:46
divine word of god
55:49
case closed end of story that's it and
55:52
so
55:52
for me i think that holds so much weight
55:57
that jesus is the divine word of god
56:01
and jesus is the absolute authority and
56:04
foundation of our faith
56:05
not the scriptures if we can just get
56:07
that straight i think that'd be really
56:09
really helpful
56:10
jesus is the end-all be-all for our
56:13
faith not the scriptures and i know
56:14
that's kind of a horse cart situation
56:17
which you know we we know about jesus
56:18
because of the scriptures blah blah blah
56:20
i get it
56:21
but i think that we should listen to
56:24
jesus words again
56:25
he's talking to the modern day church
56:27
the
56:28
or the the ancient church the the jewish
56:30
people and he's saying you guys read the
56:31
scriptures
56:32
the scriptures testify to me i'm
56:34
standing right in front of you
56:36
and you don't you don't have enough
56:38
sense to recognize
56:39
that i'm in the word of god standing
56:41
right in front of you right so i think
56:42
we'd do well to
56:44
in the way we approach the bible is that
56:46
jesus is the foundation and the
56:47
authority of our faith
56:49
period case closed and now we look to
56:51
the scriptures to illuminate
56:53
who jesus is now we look to the
56:55
scriptures to illuminate
56:56
like you called the scriptures more of a
56:58
novel and i love that idea because to me
57:01
the scriptures is this grand
57:03
meta narrative told over the course of
57:05
66 books if you're a protestant more if
57:08
you're orthodox or catholic
57:10
but it's this narrative that says that
57:13
god
57:13
the god of the universe the creator god
57:16
who's existed for all time
57:19
he just wants to share himself the
57:21
father son holy spirit the divine life
57:23
wants to share itself
57:24
so badly that it's going to create a
57:26
people that they could have as their own
57:28
and even though sin and rebellion and
57:32
all the garbage of humanity started to
57:34
happen and spin out of control
57:36
this divine life father son spirit this
57:39
trinitarian god
57:40
wouldn't settle for not having his
57:42
people and he went all the way
57:44
to sacrificing his very self god
57:48
becomes a human and god dies and is
57:50
executed
57:51
and is resurrected back to life that
57:53
narrative that met a narrative
57:55
within the scriptures that we find that
57:57
to me
57:58
is the most beautiful thing that i could
58:00
imagine and so
58:02
i want to see the bible for the
58:03
meta-narrative that it is
58:05
not get lost in the weeds so much i can
58:07
have a lot of fun with a lot of
58:09
exegetical study i mean shoot we just
58:11
studied our way through ecclesiastes as
58:12
a church a couple of months ago
58:14
it was a good time as a matter of fact
58:15
if you have issues with what kyle's
58:17
bringing
58:17
go to read ecclesiastes and then email
58:19
us when you're done
58:22
another way i think that's really
58:24
helpful and healthy
58:26
to see the scriptures especially when we
58:28
get caught up in the things like the
58:30
violence of the scriptures and god
58:31
telling
58:32
his people to kill everybody man woman
58:35
and child
58:37
it's this thing that theologians and
58:39
scholars call a cruciform way of seeing
58:41
the scriptures
58:42
and cruciform way of seeing the
58:43
scriptures just means that i'm going to
58:45
interpret my
58:46
my hermeneutic my method of
58:48
interpretation of how i'm
58:50
going to take in the scriptures and
58:51
understand them is in
58:53
and through the filter of the cross that
58:56
the cross of christ
58:57
is the greatest representation in
58:59
revelation of who god is and what god is
59:02
like you can't get any more of a clear
59:03
picture
59:04
of god hanging on a cross for the sake
59:06
of humanity
59:07
that's who god is for once and for all
59:10
and now we see the rest of the
59:11
scriptures through the crucified god
59:13
hanging on a cross and we everything has
59:17
to has to
59:18
work out from that point that i think
59:21
is a really beautiful and potentially
59:22
more healthy way to see the scriptures
59:24
and
59:24
in a way to engage with the scriptures
59:27
in a more
59:28
fundamental and foundational way that we
59:30
can actually have some some
59:32
character and integrity that the fullest
59:34
revelation of who god is was revealed in
59:36
that moment
59:36
and we see everything else through that
59:39
method and we'll talk more about that in
59:40
the next episode and something else that
59:41
we'll talk more about in the next
59:42
episode that
59:43
has been helpful for me is this idea
59:46
it's not my idea i mean i all of us
59:48
steal everything from everyone anyways
59:51
but this idea that god let his people
59:53
tell his story
59:55
that to me is a obvious
59:59
and be fascinating
60:03
that the god of the universe the divine
60:05
life
60:06
that god let his people tell our god's
60:09
story and the story of
60:11
god in humanity gets told by the by
60:13
god's people who
60:15
all you got to do is open up the book
60:16
and you're you're in the library and
60:18
you're going to find
60:19
god's people get it wrong a lot right
60:22
and they interpret things
60:23
in all sorts of wonky ways and they have
60:26
all sorts of wrong unders
60:27
wrong ideas and understandings and they
60:29
go their separate ways from that god
60:31
all the time and yet god has seen
60:35
fit to let his people tell the story
60:37
tell
60:38
god's story that to me is fascinating
60:40
and it's also
60:42
super helpful when we tackle the things
60:44
that we're going to tackle in our next
60:45
episode
60:46
things like patriarchy in the bible
60:49
things like sexism and misogyny in the
60:50
bible things like violence in the bible
60:52
all sorts of things god actually let his
60:56
people tell a story and that just seems
60:58
like the way again god works on earth
61:01
is through humanity through his people
61:04
who are broken
61:05
and messed up sinful they get it we get
61:08
it wrong more than we get it right and
61:09
god
61:10
has seen fit to have his people
61:14
bring about his new creation right in
61:16
some way shape or form that we are the
61:18
ones who are supposed to actually bring
61:20
redemption
61:22
to all of the world and that to me
61:25
just speaks of a god who is if he's
61:28
going to do that with his church he's
61:29
probably going to do that with the
61:30
scriptures as well
61:31
that just makes all sorts of sense but
61:33
we'll get more into that in our next
61:35
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61:36
episode
61:38
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