A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

Revelation, America, and Bob Dylan: Interview with Brian Zahnd

December 30, 2020 Randy Knie, Kyle Whitaker Season 1 Episode 13
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Revelation, America, and Bob Dylan: Interview with Brian Zahnd
Chapters
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Revelation, America, and Bob Dylan: Interview with Brian Zahnd
Dec 30, 2020 Season 1 Episode 13
Randy Knie, Kyle Whitaker

In this episode, we chat with Brian Zahnd about his journey from a militaristic, warmongering brand of Christianity to a more peace-loving, Jesus-centered way. Along the way, we touch on everything from his take on the current state of the American church, the Christian's role in the state, the book of Revelation, his favorite philosophers, Christian ethics, the Bible, and Bob Dylan.

The whiskey featured in this episode is a special store pick single barrel select edition of Buffalo Trace bourbon from our friends at Story Hill BKC. The scotch Brian mentions is Ardbeg Corryvreckan

AUDIO NOTE: Brian's and Kyle's audio are not quite up to our usual smooth production standard in this episode, because some recording equipment was lost in the mail. Thanks USPS!

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we chat with Brian Zahnd about his journey from a militaristic, warmongering brand of Christianity to a more peace-loving, Jesus-centered way. Along the way, we touch on everything from his take on the current state of the American church, the Christian's role in the state, the book of Revelation, his favorite philosophers, Christian ethics, the Bible, and Bob Dylan.

The whiskey featured in this episode is a special store pick single barrel select edition of Buffalo Trace bourbon from our friends at Story Hill BKC. The scotch Brian mentions is Ardbeg Corryvreckan

AUDIO NOTE: Brian's and Kyle's audio are not quite up to our usual smooth production standard in this episode, because some recording equipment was lost in the mail. Thanks USPS!

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)

00:00

[Music]

00:14

welcome to a pastor and a philosopher

00:16

walk into a bar

00:17

the podcast where we mix a sometimes

00:19

weird but always delicious cocktail of

00:21

theology

00:22

philosophy and spirituality

00:28

well welcome friends to another episode

00:31

of a pastor and a philosopher walking to

00:32

a bar

00:33

i'm excited about today's episode i'm

00:35

always excited about our episodes but

00:37

today's a fun one

00:38

we have a fun guest his name is brian

00:40

zond which

00:42

hopefully many of you recognize and know

00:44

and love already

00:46

and perhaps hopefully also some of you

00:47

don't and i think you're in for a real

00:49

treat if you don't know who brian zond

00:51

is

00:51

today is going to be a treat you're

00:53

welcome in advance

00:55

yeah this is a good one i'm excited

00:56

about this episode yeah we talk about

00:58

everything from

00:59

the book of revelation to bob dylan so

01:02

get ready yeah he's one of those guys

01:04

you could just talk to for

01:06

hours i feel like if you wanted to i

01:08

absolutely could have easy

01:09

i think part of it is that he's southern

01:11

maybe i'm biased

01:13

but i just find it easier to talk to

01:14

southern people sometimes

01:17

yeah yeah they're just like noah's you

01:19

know no assumptions no whatever chill

01:21

laid back

01:21

yeah i feel like southern people taking

01:23

a flack from us northerners our elite

01:25

us elitists let's give them a little

01:27

credit they're they're better to talk to

01:29

absolutely i don't think i shared with

01:31

you guys either i brian's

01:32

brian's been in my twitter feed for a

01:34

long time just one of those people that

01:36

i've followed over the years

01:38

and i've really appreciated his presence

01:41

through

01:41

what's been my kind of deconstruction or

01:43

just journey away from

01:45

uh my more evangelical roots and

01:49

but still trying to hold on to the

01:50

scripture and hold on to jesus and

01:52

understand how this all shapes out

01:55

he's been one of those voices that's

01:56

he's

01:58

like there's something about him that

02:00

still holds holds closely to the church

02:02

and loves

02:03

uh loves these things that are so

02:05

central to my faith

02:06

but he he's also willing to step outside

02:09

of those things i've just

02:10

appreciated that consistently over the

02:12

years that i've been

02:13

just watching him and being ministered

02:15

to him from a distance so

02:17

it's really fun to get to see him on the

02:18

other side of the screen yeah

02:21

yeah he's a prophetic voice it's a it's

02:23

a good time

02:24

but first let's do a tasting i'm excited

02:26

about what we're going to taste

02:28

today this is from our friends at story

02:30

hill bkc if you're in milwaukee

02:32

you better know the name storyhillbkc

02:35

and i gotta tell you this

02:37

product that we're gonna sample today

02:38

i'm pretty sure it's something that

02:40

you're gonna wanna run out and get

02:41

because it is limited

02:42

and it is really fun today we're

02:44

drinking buffalo trace which

02:46

already that's that's enough right there

02:49

saying you're drinking buffalo trees

02:50

it's hard to find

02:51

remarkably yeah yeah when i first

02:53

started getting into bourbon

02:55

names like eagle rare and buffalo trace

02:56

were everywhere and they are not anymore

02:59

i don't know why maybe you know kyle you

03:01

oh the reason the reason is simple

03:02

it's because the pappy van winkle craze

03:05

took off and then people started looking

03:06

for everything else that buffalo trace

03:08

makes

03:09

and so you know the higher expressions

03:11

became harder to get

03:12

and then suddenly the not so shouldn't

03:16

be hard to find stuff like eagle rare

03:17

suddenly becomes allocated and you can't

03:19

even find that at your average liquor

03:21

store anymore

03:22

and now buffalo trace itself which is

03:23

like the entry level expression for the

03:25

distillery

03:26

one of the best deals in whiskey at

03:28

usually about 20 a bottle

03:30

and now you can't find it sitting on a

03:32

shelf anywhere yep

03:33

but it but it is buffalo trace is in

03:35

milwaukee right here

03:37

yep yep we know where you can get some

03:38

and not just any this is a

03:40

this is a special bottling why don't you

03:42

tell us about that randy yeah so

03:44

our friends at story hill bkc have a

03:46

relationship with

03:47

um the buffalo trace distillery and they

03:49

were invited out

03:51

to come and take their pick of a barrel

03:53

so

03:54

most buffalo trace that you drink if not

03:56

all buffalo trace that you drink is a

03:57

blend of a number of different barrels

03:59

that the master distiller

04:00

puts together thinks is the best and

04:03

that's how you get it

04:04

this right here that we're drinking

04:05

tonight is a single barrel

04:07

select release so our friends from the

04:09

story hill bkc went

04:11

sampled seven different barrels and said

04:13

this is the one we want

04:14

and then they came home with 250-ish

04:18

bottles and they only have about 30 left

04:20

that was about a week when i

04:22

ago when i heard it so there's there's

04:23

about two dozen of these bottles left

04:26

go get one now well let's taste it and

04:28

find out if we can say go get one now

04:30

yeah

04:35

yeah i feel like this has a much

04:36

stronger barrel presence than the

04:39

typical

04:40

i know that's like a really vague thing

04:42

to say but uh the

04:44

the oak the vanilla comes through much

04:46

stronger for me

04:47

it's it feels like a higher proof even

04:48

though i don't think it is yeah this is

04:50

45

04:51

it's so it's for me it's kind of like

04:54

this is a journey like it starts sweet

04:56

right away sweet and then it it goes

04:58

savory

04:59

cinnamon and nutmeg but then the the

05:02

lasting flavor is more

05:04

citrus and like the the zesty

05:07

yummy it's this is all good

05:10

yeah first of all i'll say indeed go get

05:13

it right now

05:14

from story hill bkc if you're in

05:15

milwaukee if you're around milwaukee

05:18

make the drive but for me it's yeah

05:20

cinnamon is major here

05:22

in in this in this bottle the barrel

05:24

presents like you said kyle but for me

05:26

the after flavor that i was just

05:28

like loving indefinitely was vanilla

05:31

yeah lots of vanilla on the back of the

05:33

pan it lingers it has a much longer

05:34

finish than the typical buffalo trace

05:36

that i've had

05:37

this is way better than any buffalo

05:38

trace i've had and here's what our

05:40

friends at storehillbkc recommended as

05:41

well is

05:42

try to grab a regular bottle of buffalo

05:44

trace and then grab

05:45

this as well and just have a fun night

05:48

doing your own tasting

05:49

comparing them yeah that would be fun

05:51

let's do that this is delicious this is

05:53

i would say this is definitely the best

05:54

buffalo choice i've ever had really

05:56

really good

05:57

yeah good stuff so rush down there and

05:59

get you a bottle before they're gone

06:00

yeah tell them that we sent you just say

06:03

that you heard about it on a pastor

06:04

philosopher walk into a bar

06:06

do that and if you're not in milwaukee

06:08

find a local place to support and

06:10

support their pants off

06:13

cheers cheers there's where

06:16

wisconsin comes through cheers cares

06:20

oh yeah well brian zond thank you so

06:23

much for taking time and

06:24

talking with us welcome to a pastor and

06:26

philosopher walking to a bar

06:28

oh good to be with you i like the name

06:30

of the podcast

06:32

yeah that's a good one my wife named it

06:34

so i'll tell you that

06:35

all right there you go there you go we

06:37

do have as part of our theme

06:39

uh where pastor and philosopher walk

06:41

into a bar so if there's anything you

06:42

have next to you that

06:44

uh you know you're drinking that you

06:45

want to mention them you know i'll wait

06:47

till i'm done

06:50

i i feel like maybe some ardbeg

06:54

oh cory of reckon tonight but we'll wait

06:57

till i'm done

06:58

my wife and i actually honeymooned in

07:00

scotland a few years ago and

07:01

spent most of our time on the isla yeah

07:04

i've been there

07:05

i've been there and i've i've been to

07:07

all those uh

07:08

distilleries and perry and i that's my

07:10

wife we're planning on going back

07:13

next year assuming we can do such things

07:16

and walk the

07:17

saint cuthberg's way and then and then

07:20

hang out on isla

07:21

yeah it's the place to be perry wants to

07:24

go to uh what's the what's

07:26

she likes the spiritual island and i

07:27

like the spirit island

07:30

what's the other one the little tiny one

07:33

that's that's known for its little tiny

07:35

monasteries so

07:36

we have the spiritual island and the

07:38

spirit island

07:39

nice both important right

07:43

brian for our listeners who might not be

07:45

familiar with who you are what you do

07:47

can you just tell us a little bit about

07:48

yourself

07:49

um well i'm a pastor

07:53

and uh i encountered jesus

07:57

when i was 16 years old that was a long

08:00

time ago i'm 61 now

08:02

so you just invert those numbers and

08:06

overnight i went from being the high

08:07

school zeppelin freak to the high school

08:10

jesus freak

08:11

it was uh it was no small news

08:15

and by the time i was 17 i was leading a

08:17

ministry that was this is during the

08:19

jesus movement

08:20

we called we called it a coffee house it

08:23

was mostly a music venue for the jesus

08:25

music scene of those days

08:27

that uh essentially i was leading and

08:30

pastoring and

08:31

you know leading kids to jesus that

08:35

turned

08:35

into our church

08:38

in november of 1981 so 39 years ago so i

08:41

tell people

08:43

i've been a pastor longer than i've been

08:46

an

08:46

adult and uh

08:49

so i mean officially officially i became

08:52

a pastor when i was 22.

08:54

but essentially i've been doing it since

08:56

i was 17.

08:57

so now you know there's been all kinds

09:01

of twists and turns and

09:03

all of that over those 39 or 45 years

09:06

depending on how you

09:06

think of it but you know when all said

09:09

and done yeah i write books

09:11

i used to travel before covid i speak a

09:13

lot i do all of that sort of stuff

09:15

but as far as vocationally i'm a pastor

09:19

that's really what i am

09:20

love it of one church for almost now 40

09:23

years

09:23

yeah that's incredible first question

09:25

about what you just said

09:26

you you said you went from a zeppelin

09:28

freak to a jesus freak you didn't lose

09:30

the zeppelin when you met jesus though

09:31

did you

09:33

no no oh no

09:36

i just no yes you know if you know

09:39

anything about me you know i i'm a music

09:41

neurotic

09:42

i know you are i love music and uh

09:45

zeppelin still

09:46

maintains a lofty perch in my pantheon

09:49

yes

09:49

i'm ashamed to say i did have the phase

09:51

where i threw out all my zeppelin albums

09:53

and then regretted it later

09:54

yeah yeah dang it yeah

09:57

that's too bad yeah i did too for

10:00

but it didn't last long and it was

10:02

always half-hearted

10:05

i just kept that the reality that i

10:07

listened to zeppelin from my parents

10:08

they never knew

10:09

so so brian the fact that you have

10:12

pastored the same church for

10:14

about 40 years is remarkable in

10:17

particularly because

10:18

i know your story but that you went

10:21

through a major

10:22

faith deconstruction reconstruction you

10:24

you went through the whole ringer

10:26

while in ministry while leading that

10:28

church

10:29

can you tell us a little bit about that

10:31

what what kind of brand of christian

10:33

were you before that and then what

10:35

what was the trick just tell us about

10:37

that process

10:38

well as i said i started off in the

10:40

jesus movement

10:42

not that i made a choice it's just what

10:44

happened

10:45

and that led us into the charismatic

10:48

movement which i described as good until

10:50

it wasn't

10:53

and then you know that kind of led into

10:55

various forms of word of faith and all

10:57

of that sort of stuff

10:59

never really making a decision it's just

11:01

kind of what happened

11:03

and as i entered my 40s i began to have

11:07

a

11:08

deep sense of discontent

11:13

and i thought how did i get here i

11:15

started off as a radical jesus freak and

11:17

what am i going to end up just as a a

11:20

republican with a

11:21

jesus fish on his suv sounds about right

11:24

it's like i got on the wrong bus

11:25

somewhere and i thought how did i

11:27

get here and did word of life grow and

11:29

get big by that point

11:31

oh yeah it yeah it started off small and

11:33

then got a little bit bigger and then

11:34

got ridiculously huge

11:37

and in the 90s and that was exhilarating

11:40

i mean it was fun

11:44

uh to have that kind of growth but as we

11:47

came to the end of the 90s and going

11:48

into 2000

11:50

and you know i was just i was just

11:52

discontent

11:53

i didn't ever really have a crisis of

11:55

faith regarding

11:56

jesus i just felt like

11:59

the jesus that i loved deserved a better

12:02

christianity than i knew

12:04

and i didn't know where to find it so i

12:07

what i did was i thought well i'm just

12:09

gonna back up

12:11

and i um i started reading

12:14

church fathers which you know we were

12:16

not necessarily encouraged to do in the

12:18

charismatic movement

12:19

absolutely and so so i started reading

12:22

church fathers

12:23

and philosophy because i'd always kind

12:25

of liked philosophy

12:27

again that was sort of dismissed but i

12:28

thought well okay i'm gonna

12:30

i read it on the sly you know when

12:33

people weren't looking

12:34

and so i was reading patristics and

12:37

philosophy

12:38

and maybe just i would call it the canon

12:40

of western literature

12:42

and i did that for about four years

12:45

without it necessarily

12:46

erupting in who i was and in my

12:49

preaching but by the time i reached 2004

12:51

that all changed

12:53

and um i i remember announcing to my

12:56

church in 2004

12:57

that i was packing my bags and moving on

13:01

from the charismatic movement now

13:02

packing my bags meant that i was going

13:04

to take you know that which was viable i

13:05

would keep

13:06

and i did it with enough rhetorical

13:08

skill that they all

13:10

applauded when i announced this

13:12

[Laughter]

13:14

until i actually did it yeah and and

13:17

then we went through a period where we

13:18

lost

13:19

we lost over a thousand people

13:22

and these are these are people that i

13:25

had

13:25

maybe these are people we knew and loved

13:28

yeah

13:28

that maybe i'd led to the lord baptized

13:31

married

13:32

baptized their children married their

13:35

children

13:36

and uh they were leaving and saying mean

13:38

things like they thought i was

13:40

backslidden and i thought i think i've

13:43

front slidden

13:45

i've never been more passionate about

13:48

jesus

13:48

yeah than i am right now but so many

13:51

people couldn't understand that so that

13:53

was a

13:54

what was it like well i think it's an

13:57

interesting story i mean i tell it in my

13:59

it's kind of a memoir memoirish water to

14:02

wine

14:03

uh it was it was heaven and hell

14:07

simultaneously it was heaven in that

14:11

and i'll say we because my wife was with

14:14

me every step of the way there was never

14:15

any

14:17

any um disagreement on that

14:21

and i just felt like what i was

14:23

discovering

14:24

in a rich robust

14:27

theological tradition was what i'd been

14:29

really looking for all of my life and so

14:31

that was heaven

14:32

but to lose friends and all of that and

14:34

the pressure that comes from that

14:36

it was it was a very painful and

14:38

difficult time now

14:40

i want people to know that we're through

14:41

that time and we're

14:43

happy and healthy and the church is good

14:44

so you don't have to like feel sorry for

14:46

me

14:46

uh it's it's good but it was it was hell

14:49

going through it

14:50

and it was it was i don't like you

14:52

saying this because i think it

14:54

it alarms maybe pastors but it was 10

14:57

years to go through it was 10 years that

14:59

was hard

15:00

and from let's say 2004 to 2014.

15:04

um and i think part of what makes it

15:05

interesting is i did it

15:07

relatively publicly

15:10

and um i think that's why maybe people

15:13

find it interesting that

15:14

that i was able to more or less

15:18

take the church with me now you know

15:20

minus a thousand people

15:23

which is like half uh but you know

15:27

we were able to do it i can't imagine

15:29

the spiritual maturity that gets

15:31

cultivated when you go when a

15:33

group of people who you know hopefully

15:35

that thousand that you were left with

15:37

really saw each other's spiritual family

15:39

then

15:40

when they go through a collective

15:42

evolution of their theology together

15:45

like how does how incredibly discipling

15:48

is a 10-year journey of discovery in a

15:51

deeper dive into the rich heart of the

15:53

father son holy spirit i mean can you

15:54

tell us a little bit about that

15:57

uh well i think you just did i mean it

15:59

was like that

16:01

because we have the other side of the

16:02

story too that today

16:04

over the last i don't know five or six

16:06

years we've had people

16:08

and this doesn't happen very often but

16:10

we've had it

16:11

happen fairly regularly that that people

16:14

have

16:14

moved to little old saint joseph

16:16

missouri town of 70 000 in northwest

16:19

missouri

16:20

to be a part of our church and not a few

16:24

pastors who tried to go on some kind of

16:28

what i call it the water to wine journey

16:30

and ended up losing their pastoral

16:33

vocation

16:34

and have found word of life church as a

16:37

place of healing kind of a shelter from

16:39

the storm and

16:40

um it's been rewarding

16:45

no doubt but i have to be honest it

16:48

didn't come without pain

16:49

so as bob dylan says in one of his songs

16:53

behind every beautiful thing

16:54

there's been some kind of pain and uh

16:58

that's the truth would you still

17:00

describe yourself as charismatic or

17:05

it depends on who's asking if someone is

17:08

asking in a way expecting me to say no

17:11

i'll say yes

17:13

because i don't i don't use that very

17:16

often as a term of self-designation

17:19

i'm not trying to be evasive i don't we

17:21

don't really have a

17:22

good term for what we are i mean

17:26

you know on sunday mornings you're going

17:28

to have the

17:29

kind of rock and roll worship with drums

17:32

and guitars and all of that because i

17:34

belong to the generation that fought the

17:35

battle to get them in church

17:37

so i'm keeping them thank you by the way

17:40

but we're also liturgical and

17:42

sacramental

17:44

so we're kind of doing a lot of things

17:46

at the same time

17:47

so i don't know maybe we're rock and

17:51

roll liturgical

17:53

i don't i do seriously i don't have a

17:55

handy term but as far as

17:58

i mean it's not an emphasis

18:01

but i still think of myself as

18:03

charismatic in some ways

18:05

although when i look around at my

18:06

compatriots turning into trumpers

18:08

you know yeah i i don't get that at all

18:12

at all um but the idea of having a

18:16

a vibrant real experience of the holy

18:18

spirit

18:20

is uh well it's extremely new testament

18:22

for one thing

18:23

and i think that's something to aspire

18:24

to and hold on to yeah

18:26

you still believe in the gifts of the

18:27

spirit would you say yeah i do

18:30

but not in a kind of sensationalist not

18:33

a

18:33

cessationist or sensationalist way

18:37

i i don't think it's something to at

18:40

this point in time i don't feel the need

18:42

to make it our thing but

18:45

i actually believe that you know what

18:48

that that mystical experiences in the

18:51

spirit are

18:52

normative to the christian life and and

18:54

should be thought of that way

18:56

yeah it's ironic because i was just

18:57

listening to you referenced on twitter i

18:59

think last week

19:00

a message that message that you preached

19:02

five years ago i think almost to the day

19:05

that was a prophetic word for the church

19:07

that's the way you

19:08

framed it yeah i i'd forgotten about

19:11

that

19:11

and i was looking at some old notes and

19:14

came across that and then after i

19:16

tweeted that somebody had it might have

19:19

been someone at our church

19:21

it was somebody at our church actually

19:23

was that you

19:24

yeah that wasn't me but it was somebody

19:25

from our church yeah

19:27

yeah that i i don't know who produced it

19:30

maybe word of life i don't know and i

19:32

sat there and i listened to that

19:34

and i thought i think that was prophetic

19:39

i think so what are you going to say but

19:41

in a sad sort of way because

19:43

we failed the test i mean we in general

19:45

i don't think

19:46

all of us did but well first of all i'll

19:49

recommend to any listeners to go back

19:50

and listen to that

19:51

but could you give just a little a

19:53

little microcosm of that prophetic word

19:55

that you gave five years ago

19:57

i don't know if i can i mean uh

20:01

well i had the sense that we were

20:03

entering into a time of testing

20:06

whether we would follow the way of hate

20:07

or the way of love

20:09

and uh to this i don't i mean i just

20:11

came upon it and i sort of

20:13

tweeted that because i was looking at

20:15

what i'd said uh but i don't remember it

20:17

that well

20:19

but it seems to me that much

20:22

of the charismatic and certainly the

20:25

evangelical church in america

20:27

has failed that test and rallied around

20:30

a message of who we're going to hate

20:32

and of course scapegoating and hating

20:35

the other

20:36

is a very effective way of drawing

20:39

people together the only problem is that

20:41

it's demonic

20:43

so it's that little thing

20:46

so um yeah i know i i i don't have

20:50

notes with me about that i've got the

20:52

tweet here

20:53

it's um it says five years ago you're

20:56

looking at your your sermon notes and

20:57

the things that you were saying at that

20:58

time you were

20:59

saying that this is a dangerous time

21:01

it's gonna be a time of temptation

21:03

the church will be tested about how

21:05

we're how serious we are about following

21:07

jesus and satan will tempt us to react

21:09

in fear and hatred

21:10

bigotry and scapegoating um

21:14

yeah that came right there i just i just

21:16

took that verbatim from my sermon notes

21:18

and then the the clip of me

21:20

of the audio clip of me saying it you

21:22

can tell i'm obviously not just reading

21:23

notes i'm riffing on it

21:25

and uh yeah sounds pretty accurate to me

21:30

as far as i can be objective about

21:32

something i said five years ago it seems

21:34

like yeah i would say that was

21:35

relatively prophetic

21:36

yeah yeah i'm wanting to know for the

21:39

sake of my co-host here

21:41

brian as you you know you dove into the

21:44

patristics and

21:45

all that but you also said you you did a

21:47

lot of philosophy reading

21:49

what are some of your favorite

21:50

philosophers or what's some of your

21:51

favorite uh work that you discovered

21:53

well i don't know about favorite but the

21:56

the two philosophers i mean i you know

21:59

daradon

22:00

i did a fairly deep dive into and and

22:03

just you know

22:05

of course you gotta have your plato and

22:07

aristotle

22:08

but the two that i can that i would feel

22:10

comfortable around a phd

22:12

philosopher uh talking about would be

22:15

kirkegaard and nietzsche

22:18

and i think i'm really well read in both

22:20

of them

22:21

uh in a forthcoming book i finished the

22:24

manuscript but it'll come out

22:25

sometime next year i i talk about

22:29

the fantasy i have of nietzsche

22:32

and kirkegaard meeting one another

22:35

sitting down

22:36

to have lunch together because in some

22:40

ways they're saying something

22:41

very similar they didn't know of each

22:44

other

22:45

uh apparently nietzsche had perhaps

22:48

heard of kirkegaard

22:49

but had not read anything by him

22:52

you know quirky kirkegaard's a few years

22:54

older and he'd already died

22:56

but i mean quirky guard was hardly known

22:58

outside of copenhagen at that time

22:59

anyway

23:00

i think that would have been fascinating

23:02

and i think it's a bit

23:03

sad because i can i can just imagine

23:07

kirkegaard listening to nietzsche and

23:08

saying yes yes

23:10

yes but and

23:13

and kirkegaard could bring as a strident

23:17

critique of 19th century christendom as

23:20

nietzsche

23:21

but still found a way to hold on to

23:23

faith

23:24

and um i like reading nietzsche i agree

23:28

with him 75

23:29

of the time now the 25 percent i

23:32

disagree is like like

23:33

way important um here's the thing with

23:37

nietzsche he's he's one of the

23:39

as has been described one of the masters

23:41

of suspicion

23:43

along with freud and marx and i won't

23:44

talk much about freud and marx but

23:46

what nietzsche is suspicious of

23:49

is the reality of real love of true love

23:53

of christian love of co-suffering love

23:55

of altruistic love

23:56

he wants to dismiss it as

23:59

uh slave morality a way that the weak

24:02

manipulate the strong he

24:03

simply didn't believe that it could

24:05

exist

24:07

and um you know you wonder sometimes i

24:11

mean you can't separate philosophers

24:13

from who they are as human beings and

24:16

i'm not trying to be cute here but

24:18

i do seriously wonder how much of

24:21

nietzsche's philosophy was at least

24:23

influenced by the fact that he proposed

24:25

twice and was turned down twice

24:27

and he said the same thing well that's

24:30

true

24:31

that's true yeah he just he just needed

24:33

someone to

24:34

i think they'd both just have a pity

24:36

party over there romantic livestream

24:38

true true i just say that somebody

24:41

needed

24:42

someone to take him to the dairy queen

24:46

apparently he did have like close

24:48

friends though including

24:49

at least one clergyman who he maintained

24:52

a lifelong friendship with but

24:54

yeah those those are the two that that

24:56

i'm

24:57

i feel confident that i can say i'm well

24:59

read in and

25:00

to what extent they influenced me i i

25:03

you know you go through a phase

25:05

i think in 2006 i was reading too much

25:08

kirk garden it was slipping into my

25:10

preaching too much

25:12

and i look back and say yeah that

25:13

probably wasn't my best stuff but i

25:15

think

25:16

i think in some ways those that get

25:18

serious about

25:20

christian thought have to go through a

25:21

kirkengard phase i mean that's what bart

25:23

said

25:24

you have to go through it but then you

25:25

have to keep going

25:27

some people get stuck there right i

25:30

might be one of those people

25:31

i feel like if you ever take nietzsche

25:33

seriously in particular he never leaves

25:35

your head i feel like he's

25:36

he's been embedded in my brain since

25:38

yeah and supernate gerard's the same way

25:40

once you get that little girardian thing

25:42

in you it it's

25:44

it's there you're infected yeah so brian

25:47

i love

25:48

your your work on the book of revelation

25:50

i love your

25:51

your thoughts on it you did a really

25:53

really wonderful sermon series on it and

25:55

have kind of turned into an expert on

25:57

revelation in in many ways

25:58

i wouldn't go that far but okay okay all

26:00

right

26:01

i hope you're ready i haven't written a

26:03

uh i have written an introduction

26:05

in a study bible to revelation they i

26:08

was asked to do

26:10

what jonah matthew

26:13

titus in revelation which i said i don't

26:16

know anything about titus but

26:19

i'll read it a few times and see what i

26:21

can come up with but i was really glad

26:22

to do revelations yeah i've got two

26:24

books i want you to write they're the

26:25

randy and i request list

26:27

for brian's on one is a book on

26:28

revelation and because

26:30

we need it and two is a book that we'll

26:32

talk about later that i really want you

26:34

to write which is the theology of bob

26:36

dylan

26:36

but we'll get to that later so can you

26:40

give

26:40

our it could happen i

26:43

for for our listeners who aren't as

26:45

familiar with

26:47

a revelation that actually speaks to us

26:49

in our present moment

26:50

and also spoke to and was relevant for

26:52

its original

26:54

hearers and listeners uh and readers can

26:56

you just give us a

26:58

a revelation for dummies in about three

27:01

minutes or less

27:03

okay we'll see um

27:06

revelation is the book of revelation

27:10

is basically four things

27:14

first of all it's a prophetic and this

27:18

this might be the most difficult to

27:19

understand but it's a prophetic

27:20

interpretation

27:22

of the tumultuous events of the 60s and

27:25

70s

27:27

i don't mean the 1960s and 70s i mean

27:29

the 60s

27:30

and 70s i think

27:34

the book uses a literary device that

27:36

you'll find in the book of daniel

27:38

where it is positioning itself

27:42

as if it's predicting

27:45

future events when actually what it's

27:47

doing is looking back

27:49

probably about 20 to 30 years

27:52

20 years closer 20 25 years and giving a

27:55

prophetic interpretation

27:57

of what they've just been through the

28:00

most significant event during that time

28:03

would have been

28:03

the destruction of jerusalem in 1870

28:07

and uh the deportation of a whole lot of

28:09

slaves to rome

28:11

who were then employed in the

28:12

construction of the coliseum

28:14

and it was money from the jewish

28:16

treasury that largely

28:17

funded the construction of the coliseum

28:20

uh it was just a very difficult time a

28:22

crop failure

28:23

in egypt which was the bread basket of

28:25

the roman empire that created problems

28:27

there was some

28:28

plagues and and all sorts of things and

28:31

i think it's a very creative

28:32

interpretation of those events

28:34

secondly and maybe this is the most

28:36

important one the most prevalent one

28:38

it's a prophetic critique of the roman

28:42

empire

28:43

and so this is the beast i mean the

28:45

beast

28:47

is the roman empire 666 is

28:51

nero probably this is written during the

28:53

reign of domitian this is like in the

28:55

90s

28:56

but it's looking back on the uh

28:59

very strange and odd

29:02

reign of nero who at least according to

29:05

church tradition

29:07

uh put to death both peter and paul

29:11

and uh but it's simply pres because i

29:14

think by the time we get to the 90s

29:15

things are calming down and it's it's

29:19

easy for christians in the roman empire

29:22

to view the empires relatively benign

29:25

and sort of be be drawn into uh

29:28

be lulled to sleep anyway and i think

29:30

john the revelator is just

29:31

pounding the table saying no remember

29:33

this thing is a

29:34

beast and that at its heart

29:38

it is evil and destructive the third

29:40

thing i would say and this is maybe

29:42

related

29:43

and this is an application for for us

29:46

today

29:46

it's a prophetic expose of

29:50

uh empire and

29:54

civil religion about about how

29:57

how the worship of the

30:00

empire itself allegiance to the empire

30:04

itself can take on religious

30:05

overtones and then very often what

30:07

happens is in some way the empire needs

30:09

to be personified

30:11

and this is this is why this is how you

30:12

saw the rise of the emperor cult which

30:15

began in the eastern provinces

30:17

to whom this letter is addressed not in

30:19

rome because rome's too close to the

30:20

emperor they're never gonna

30:22

people that actually live in rome aren't

30:23

gonna believe this guy is a god

30:25

but the people out in the provinces are

30:27

being drawn

30:28

into the cult of emperor worship which

30:31

is

30:32

really a way of personifying the

30:35

empire into a single person and the book

30:38

of revelation is a very powerful

30:39

expose of that and then finally it it's

30:41

just a how would i say it it's a

30:43

it's a prophetic portrayal of the

30:46

ultimate triumph of christ that's the

30:48

one aspect

30:49

that i would say is future okay if

30:52

there's one thing that's

30:53

future it's just the the holy

30:56

imagination of saint john the revelator

30:59

as he portrays very creatively

31:02

artistically

31:03

the ultimate triumph of christ which

31:06

when he's

31:07

composing this i think is is amazing

31:10

that he did foresee that ultimately this

31:13

thing is going to triumph

31:14

i i'm i'm over my three minutes i'm

31:16

quite sure

31:18

but but i want to throw in one more

31:20

thing i see the book of revelation as

31:22

carrying aspects of a roman a

31:25

greco-roman play

31:27

complete with drama tragedy

31:31

comedy and chorus and you can see that

31:33

for example in chapter five

31:35

when john is is being

31:38

kind of hosted by the elder and we

31:42

were shown that in the right hand of the

31:44

one who sits upon a throne there is a

31:45

there is a scroll that seems to have

31:47

something to do with god's

31:48

intentions and purposes for humanity for

31:51

history

31:52

itself but it's sealed with seven seals

31:55

and before god's purposes let's say

31:58

redemptive purposes

32:00

can be unleashed someone has to be found

32:02

worthy

32:03

to break the seals and proclaim the

32:06

goodness of the scroll

32:07

and there's that's the drama and then

32:09

there's none

32:10

found worthy and john begins to weep

32:14

greatly that's the tragedy because i

32:16

mean what would be more tragic

32:18

than to think that the the way the world

32:21

has been is the way it has to be forever

32:24

okay but then the elder says hold on

32:26

don't weep don't weep

32:28

look the lion of the tribe of judah has

32:31

overcome

32:33

and is worthy to break the seals

32:36

and open the scroll and so so

32:39

so it's look the lion of the tribe of

32:42

judah and john looks and what does he

32:44

see

32:44

does he see a lion he does not see a

32:46

lion he sees a lamb

32:48

a little lamb a lamb a a little lamb

32:51

a baby lamb as if slain

32:54

but standing again so

32:58

let's say we're in the african serengeti

33:00

and we know there might be lions about

33:02

him we're walking along and i say

33:03

look a lion and and you look and it's in

33:06

installation

33:07

you know you laugh ha ha it's a joke

33:09

well

33:10

that is the comedic part of the book of

33:12

revelation

33:14

look the line of the tribe of jesus but

33:16

the lion is the lamb

33:17

people say you know jesus came as a lamb

33:19

he's coming back as a lion book of

33:20

revelation nonsense

33:21

there's no line in the book of

33:23

revelation there's only a lamb

33:26

and one of the comedic and of course

33:28

then what happens very

33:29

the very next thing that happens is the

33:30

chorus breaks out and there's all of

33:32

this

33:33

this anthem of praise that worthy is the

33:35

lamb

33:36

and so one of the one of the things i

33:38

love about the book of revelation

33:40

is you have this this comedy of these

33:43

beasts

33:44

with their seven heads and ten horns

33:46

that appear so

33:47

fearsome you know some sort of like

33:49

first century godzilla's

33:50

are being defeated by this tiny little

33:53

lamb

33:54

that has been slain but is still

33:55

standing on his feet okay

33:57

i was probably like seven or eight

33:59

minutes but anyway it's the best

34:00

standing ovation

34:01

good amazing job so i have a

34:04

quick follow-up if that's okay so for

34:06

our listeners who

34:07

hear prophecy and think future

34:11

like three out of the four things you

34:12

said included the word prophecy but the

34:14

first thing said it was about something

34:15

that happened 20 years ago so

34:17

can you just quickly explain how

34:19

something could be prophetic if it's not

34:20

actually about the future

34:21

yeah prophetic as in apocalyptic as in

34:25

you know apocalypses as as in revelation

34:28

that is that it is that it is re

34:31

it is revealing it is showing what has

34:35

been perhaps

34:36

obscured by propaganda

34:40

by lies by deceit

34:43

and at in its best form

34:47

prophecy is is the truth of god that

34:49

shines through all the dissimulation

34:52

that is so present in our corrupted

34:54

world

34:56

so maybe maybe prophecy is a

35:00

spirit-empowered truth-telling

35:03

we might think of it like that not not

35:06

not uh primarily prognostication

35:10

sure yeah if i did a sermon series in

35:13

revelation as well

35:15

and when when people ask me about

35:17

revelation or when i talk about

35:19

revelation i would say it's

35:20

i say it's primarily a book about

35:22

allegiance

35:23

um yes and that's not me that's michael

35:26

goreman and many others right but

35:28

right revelation is a book that's about

35:30

allegiance can you flush that

35:32

out a little bit particularly brian in

35:34

context of what we are living in right

35:37

now

35:37

as christians in america look i don't

35:39

think there's any

35:41

book of the bible that is more relevant

35:45

to a certain strand of american

35:48

christians right now than the book of

35:49

revelation but you're going to have to

35:50

learn how to read it right

35:52

yes i mean if you see it as

35:55

a you know foretelling of

35:58

you know global political events 2000

36:02

years from the time that it was written

36:03

then you're going to be off track but if

36:06

you can

36:07

see it as a true prophet

36:11

contending at a particular place and

36:13

time

36:14

that those who are baptized maintain

36:17

unrivaled allegiance to jesus christ as

36:20

lord and not be seduced

36:24

into compromising with the beast or with

36:27

some

36:28

form of the cult of infer worship so

36:30

that you end up with a 666

36:32

on your right hand or on your head if we

36:34

can see

36:35

that jesus is lord the seminal christian

36:39

confession

36:40

was originally heard in its original

36:43

context primarily as a political

36:45

statement not a religious state

36:47

then all of a sudden the book of

36:49

revelation has new

36:51

currency what happened was with the rise

36:54

of a so-called christian emperor

36:56

centuries later around the year 312 with

36:59

constantine

37:00

we're back to the to thinking well okay

37:02

caesar's kind of lord

37:04

too uh so jesus must have some

37:07

other role let's see oh what happens is

37:10

jesus gets demoted

37:12

from truly being lord to the secretary

37:14

of afterlife affairs there you go

37:16

and his his his uh job is really to get

37:20

us into heaven when we die

37:21

in the meantime we'll let caesar run the

37:23

world and then we get all caught up and

37:25

you know

37:25

is it our caesar and i am

37:28

i am political in the sense that

37:32

politics is simply you know the

37:34

discussion and the attempt at

37:36

human flourishing in a cooperative way

37:39

collective way and i think christ has

37:42

speaks to all of that

37:43

what i am not is partisan i'm

37:46

radically deeply sincerely this is not

37:50

you know rhetoric i'm committed

37:53

to the lamb i don't i don't follow

37:55

donkey don't follow an elephant i follow

37:57

the lamb

37:58

uh i have no allegiance

38:01

to partisanship i know i have no

38:05

particular allegiance to the united

38:07

states other than

38:08

i think i comport myself as a good

38:10

citizen

38:12

i'm happy to you know pay my fair share

38:15

of taxes

38:16

i wish that more of it would go to just

38:18

human flourishing unless

38:19

it would go to a wage anymore but i i'm

38:21

i don't i can't

38:23

control all of that but i regard my

38:26

citizenship as a philosophical

38:29

accidental

38:30

it's it's not ontologically part of who

38:32

i am

38:33

yeah i have a passport back when i used

38:35

to travel

38:36

you know it's blue it's got a seal of

38:39

the united states on it says i'm an

38:40

american okay fine

38:41

you know i hold that loosely i need it

38:43

but i hold it loosely

38:45

because upon my baptism i became the

38:48

citizen

38:49

of another kingdom and all of my

38:52

allegiance

38:53

is pledged to christ and i just don't

38:56

have any other allegiance left over i

38:57

will be

38:59

a responsible citizen that i think will

39:02

contribute to the well-being of my

39:03

community but

39:04

i won't stand and put my you know this

39:06

liturgical gesture

39:08

and pledge allegiance to the united

39:09

states i don't i don't stand and sing

39:11

the

39:11

national anthem sometimes if i'm at a

39:13

football game i will stand i don't sing

39:15

it

39:15

by you say why do you stand i just don't

39:17

want to get beat up you know call me

39:19

but i just don't want to uh

39:23

yep yeah you're you're in you're in good

39:26

company

39:27

usually what i do is when it's about

39:29

time for the national anthem i feel led

39:30

to

39:31

go get a hot dog or go to the men's room

39:33

or something like that so i'm just out

39:34

of the stadium

39:35

perfect yep i don't know how things are

39:37

in st joseph missouri i'm assuming

39:38

they're pretty pretty similar to

39:39

milwaukee wisconsin

39:41

and i would say that i've been a pastor

39:43

for about 15 years so

39:45

not even half as long as you have but

39:47

long enough to say

39:48

that i think i've seen and witnessed

39:50

before my eyes

39:52

the biggest corrupting influence in the

39:54

church

39:55

that is politics where i've watched

39:58

people who are well intentioned

40:00

and wonderful people really basically

40:03

conflate their politics and political

40:05

ideology with their theology

40:07

and they've actually given over kingdom

40:10

issues

40:11

to politics and they let whichever

40:14

side they see themselves on that's how

40:16

they engage and think that god thinks

40:18

about this or the scriptures think about

40:20

it and they

40:21

i could go on and on i'm assuming you

40:23

see that in saint joseph said

40:25

in and have seen that happening around

40:28

the church in america as well

40:29

of course and this is something that

40:31

i've been talking about and writing

40:33

about

40:34

for uh well probably 16 years now

40:38

and i think i think i'm situated as well

40:40

as anyone

40:42

to understand what has happened or at

40:44

least to to

40:45

be a witness to it and i'm still

40:47

astounded

40:48

i just i'm absolutely astounded

40:53

the degree to which so many christian

40:56

leaders in america have in my estimation

40:59

sold their soul for proximity to power

41:03

and it just goes to prove to you how

41:05

intoxicating

41:07

power can be it is the one ring to rule

41:10

them all

41:11

wow i mean uh

41:14

so if you think about lord of the rings

41:17

it's the ring of power and

41:21

no one can seem to bear that

41:24

ring without being corrupted by it even

41:27

a

41:28

you know even such a humble little

41:32

hobbit as frodo in the final moment

41:35

can't let go of it and fate has to

41:37

intervene

41:38

so i i just think

41:41

if if we're going to follow jesus and be

41:45

witnesses for this

41:46

other kingdom that is the kingdom of

41:48

christ we have to know

41:50

ourselves well enough to say i can't get

41:52

very close

41:54

to that ring of power or i will be

41:57

enchanted by it i'll be intoxicated by

41:59

it i'll

42:00

the the eye of sarin will fall upon me

42:02

and who knows what i'll do

42:04

and so that's why for a year i mean i've

42:06

just i've never accepted an invitation

42:08

to washington prayer breakfast other

42:11

things i've been invited i've just

42:12

always said no

42:14

for if i think i've just had enough

42:16

grace to know

42:17

i will not trust myself to get

42:20

that close to that much power

42:23

and not have it mesmerize me

42:26

so would you say then that it might be a

42:28

bad idea for christians to go into

42:31

the political world or would you

42:33

disagree with that

42:39

i i don't think there's a one-time

42:42

answer

42:43

because you know what is what would we

42:45

mean by the political world

42:47

can you know can can a christian be the

42:51

county assessor

42:52

yeah i would think so i mean so there's

42:54

lev i mean we could we can vote

42:56

we can run for office we can hold office

42:59

as long as it

43:00

doesn't compromise our allegiance to

43:03

jesus christ but i think we have to

43:05

enter that process with our eyes wide

43:06

open

43:08

that the higher we move in the ranks of

43:11

power

43:12

the more difficult it is going to be for

43:15

us

43:15

to maintain complete fidelity to christ

43:19

i think in a healthier democracy

43:22

at a different time i probably wouldn't

43:25

be

43:26

too concerned about christians entering

43:28

the political process as far as office

43:30

holders

43:31

currently it seems so toxic so

43:34

partisan driven that i that

43:37

i would i would want to at least raise a

43:40

cautionary flag

43:42

but but but i don't i'm not going to

43:43

make us a clear

43:45

i'm not a christian anarchist and i i

43:48

don't listen i don't want to present a

43:49

situation

43:50

where no christian can participate in

43:53

public life

43:54

i don't think i want you know the united

43:56

states to be the place where

43:57

no christian's a school teacher or

43:59

serves in you know city government or

44:01

anything

44:02

that's not where i'm coming from but i

44:04

think we have to i think we just have to

44:06

recognize

44:08

that once you get mesmerized by power

44:10

there's never enough

44:12

of it and you will

44:15

incrementally inch by inch travel

44:18

who knows it seems like a thousand miles

44:21

in betrayal of your fidelity to christ

44:23

to maintain

44:24

some sort of nearness to power

44:27

so we recently did an episode on

44:30

patriotism nationalism that sort of

44:32

thing

44:33

and we had a small disagreement between

44:34

us about whether whether there is such a

44:36

thing as the virtue of

44:38

patriotism i come down on the side of

44:40

thinking there's probably no such thing

44:43

randy came down on the side of thinking

44:44

that there is a healthy kind of

44:46

patriotism i wonder where you stand on

44:48

that

44:49

if by patriotism we simply mean pride of

44:52

place

44:53

that sort of impels us towards

44:56

responsible citizenship and

44:57

neighborliness

44:58

i think that's good you know if i'm in

45:02

portugal which is a country i've

45:04

traveled to

45:04

and in a lot if i'm in portugal and see

45:07

in a church a portuguese flag

45:11

i don't particularly like it but i'm not

45:13

particularly alarmed by it either

45:17

because you know a portugal hasn't been

45:19

an

45:20

empire for you know what 400 years or

45:22

something

45:23

and uh but when i see a a

45:26

an american flag in a church or a

45:29

russian flag

45:30

when i'm in russia those make me very

45:33

nervous

45:34

because i here's where i make the

45:36

distinction i mean we're talking about

45:37

patriotism nationalism how about a

45:39

distinction between

45:41

just a nation and an empire

45:44

uh empire because i need to define terms

45:47

i mean something quite specific

45:49

empires are not just nations god seems

45:52

to love

45:53

nations with their ethnicity culture

45:55

language diversity all of that

45:57

it doesn't seem to me that god wants the

45:59

globe the world to be

46:02

one giant american mall you know

46:06

the idea that it would be diverse in

46:08

language culture ethnicity all of that

46:10

seems healthy and good i celebrate it

46:13

but

46:14

that's not empires empires are rich

46:16

powerful nations

46:18

who believe they have a divine right to

46:20

rule other nations

46:21

and a manifest destiny to shape history

46:24

according to their agenda when a nation

46:27

aspires to that kind of status

46:30

they begin to impinge upon the

46:31

sovereignty of god who's made that very

46:33

promise

46:34

to his beloved son so who has a divine

46:37

right to rule nations and a manifest

46:39

destiny to shape history it's jesus

46:41

christ

46:41

not the united states of america or any

46:43

other nation

46:45

that seeks to become an empire come on

46:47

so

46:48

you know americans are fond of we're

46:50

number one we're number one well there's

46:52

a lot of pressure there

46:53

and you you always have to seek to

46:56

maintain that position in portugal

46:58

they're like we're number where are we

47:00

38

47:01

39 i don't know uh and and then

47:04

things are much more uh

47:08

calm relaxed and so if if

47:11

if the portuguese brethren can sing the

47:14

portuguese national anthem with a sense

47:16

of pride i say god bless them

47:18

but in empires you better be careful

47:22

that's good when you were talking about

47:23

revelation it made me

47:25

think of nietzsche because he lives in

47:26

my brain like i said um so

47:28

so nietzsche one time apparently quipped

47:29

and i only know this because randy

47:31

preached a sermon on revelation where he

47:33

quoted nietzsche and i was like what

47:34

uh but apparently he accused or he

47:37

called it the most vengeful book

47:39

ever written or something like that

47:40

that's a like a a really yeah

47:44

but like all of the dispensationalists

47:47

that i grew up learning christianity

47:48

from also read it that way

47:50

and to find out that it was also

47:52

nietzsche's view would shock them right

47:53

so what do you say to someone who sees

47:55

in it

47:56

a lot of vengeance jesus comes back with

47:58

a sword and he murders everybody and he

48:00

fills the valley with blood and

48:02

you know you know somebody who is

48:03

politically weak is writing this in the

48:06

midst of empire why not read it that way

48:08

well first of all and this is i mean

48:10

this may sound simple

48:13

but it bears repeating again and again

48:15

and again

48:16

everything in the book of revelation

48:20

is symbol all of it i mean whether we're

48:22

talking about

48:24

the beast up out of the sea with seven

48:26

heads and ten horns

48:28

whether we're talking about the

48:29

bejeweled city

48:31

whether we're talking about a river of

48:33

blood whether we're talking about

48:34

locusts with the face of a man a hair of

48:37

a woman and i forgot all the details of

48:39

the locust

48:40

all of it's all of its symbol you can't

48:43

say

48:44

well i've i've i'll do it someday

48:47

someday i'm going to go through the book

48:48

of revelation and write every single

48:50

image down

48:52

it'll be it it'd be like writing the

48:54

whole book of revelation again but

48:56

and then but there's going to be a

48:57

little box after each one

48:59

symbol literally and then you have to

49:02

check what you think it is

49:04

and then at the very end it's going to

49:05

say explain your system

49:08

so so people say okay is jesus

49:11

actually a lamb literally a lamb

49:15

with seven eyes and seven horns no i

49:18

think that's the symbol

49:19

but is jesus gonna come back on a flying

49:21

white horse

49:23

with a sword in his mouth and kill 200

49:25

million people ah

49:27

i think so really

49:31

so so this is this is a portrayal of

49:34

jesus christ

49:36

ultimately overcoming but he always does

49:39

it as the lamb

49:40

he goes into that battle in revelation

49:42

19 with his robe drenched in blood

49:44

before the battle

49:46

because he's the one that has shed his

49:47

blood and i think of it this way

49:50

i'm one of those 200 million that was

49:52

you know the idea of the population of

49:54

the world at the time

49:55

i am one of those that have been slain

49:58

by the word that proceeds from the mouth

50:00

of christ and then

50:01

raised to the newness of life there we

50:03

go keep it in the realm

50:06

of the apocalyptic of metaphor

50:09

of symbol and maybe just

50:13

end with the idea that yeah okay there's

50:16

a lake of fire out there but what did

50:18

the

50:18

spirit and the bride say from the city

50:21

they say

50:22

if anyone is thirsty is anybody thirsty

50:25

they're like we're in a lake of fire

50:28

well then come

50:29

into the city uh you know into the

50:32

you you have 12 gates you can you can

50:34

enter the city from any direction

50:36

and the gates are never shut the gates

50:38

are there not to keep people out but to

50:40

funnel people into the way of the lamb

50:44

i don't find it actually that difficult

50:48

to not literalize revelation and and

50:51

think that

50:52

that that at some point in the future

50:54

jesus is going to disavow the sermon on

50:55

the mountain come back and just start

50:57

killing hundreds of millions of people

50:59

i i don't think that's going to happen

51:00

and i think i think you just have to

51:02

understand

51:03

how creative john the revelator

51:06

obviously was and this is not entirely

51:09

unique it's a unique

51:11

it's unique i want to say it's unique to

51:12

scripture it's not really

51:14

i mean it's it's magnified it's

51:16

amplified

51:17

but virtually everything in the book of

51:20

revelation is

51:21

borrowed from the old testament i mean

51:24

it's all there he's kind of gathered all

51:27

of these

51:27

images and metaphors together and put

51:30

them in one book but then

51:31

amped them up sort of exaggerated them

51:34

because john the revelator sees that the

51:37

the the triumph of christ

51:38

is in fact enormous and

51:42

that yes there is now tremendous

51:44

vengeance

51:46

falling upon that which has truly

51:48

brought humanity to suffering that is

51:50

upon the satan and empire and spiritual

51:54

wickedness and all of that

51:55

and so he's going to depict it in terms

51:57

of warfare but i don't think there's a

51:59

need to literalize it

52:01

yep i mean when when we think

52:04

of revelation we think of judgment when

52:07

we go to

52:08

the the angry spiteful vengeful kind of

52:11

judgment when we think of it when really

52:13

judgment in the book of revelation that

52:15

part of the book of revelation

52:17

is all about god setting the world to

52:19

rights right and

52:21

for once and for all overcoming and

52:23

cutting the head off of

52:25

evil and overcoming it by the his own

52:28

blood

52:29

and we had we had brad your second

52:31

william paul young on a

52:32

couple weeks ago and brad would say

52:36

the judgment of god is actually the

52:38

fiery furnace of the love of god that is

52:41

dead set

52:41

on burning anything that is set against

52:45

love which is god he's going to burn

52:47

that away

52:48

and that's the judgment of god so that

52:49

we can stand before the god who is love

52:51

face to face

52:52

i had somebody trying to insult me not

52:55

long ago

52:56

because they were alarmed at my theology

52:59

and they said

53:00

you're going to hell and i said probably

53:02

for a little while

53:06

meaning that we must all appear before

53:08

the judgment seat of christ yes

53:10

we all must pass through the fires of

53:13

judgment

53:14

there's going to be some things that are

53:15

going to be burned in my life but i

53:17

still believe that in the end i'll be

53:18

safe

53:19

i mean that's you know what's that's

53:20

that's first corinthians is it five

53:22

what chapter is that any four maybe four

53:25

similarly talking about war now brian um

53:28

you've done extensive work in extensive

53:30

writing farewell to mars

53:31

you're one of your main books i would

53:33

say probably

53:34

you speak to your journey out of a

53:37

militaristic and even kind of

53:39

i'll bet you would say warmongering kind

53:40

of christian christianity

53:42

um and into a more

53:45

christ-like new testament peace-filled

53:48

faith so can you tell us

53:50

a little bit about that journey yeah

53:51

it's interesting when i first

53:53

encountered jesus and let's say by the

53:56

time i was 17

53:58

i knew that waging war was incompatible

54:02

with the sermon on the mount

54:04

i just knew that i mean

54:07

right i got a bible i read it and i saw

54:09

that and so as a teenager and then maybe

54:11

into my early 20s

54:14

i just i just knew you that waging war

54:16

was incompatible with following jesus i

54:18

just knew that

54:19

then i got taught and

54:23

i became more and more comfortable

54:26

with violence which i had not

54:30

been from the moment i'd met jesus but

54:33

then things got americanized in my

54:35

it didn't happen all at once it happened

54:36

over a period of time

54:38

and of course the myth of redemptive

54:41

violence is so

54:42

seductive in america you know and it's

54:46

it's summed up in the icon

54:48

of the american mythical cowboy

54:51

with his trusty six shooter who sets all

54:54

wrongs to write by

54:56

killing the bad guys and i

55:00

eventually was seduced into that

55:03

when 9 11 happened that evening

55:07

i was part of organizing a a prayer

55:11

gathering

55:11

at the local university which thousands

55:14

of people came

55:16

and that night i don't i don't have a

55:18

record of what i prayed i hope it

55:20

doesn't exist

55:21

but but i know what i prayed more or

55:23

less and it was a war prayer

55:25

i knew that the only way america could

55:27

frame what had happened

55:29

was in terms of war and that our

55:30

response would be war

55:32

and so i prayed a prayer blessing the

55:35

american

55:36

war effort that that i was certain was

55:38

inevitable

55:39

and and then things began to change

55:43

and i had a a mystical experience to be

55:46

honest with you

55:48

when i was sitting with jesus in prayer

55:50

it's a contemplative practice that i

55:51

have

55:52

and it was as if my affection for war

55:57

was

55:57

played back in my mind as an

56:00

incriminating

56:01

surveillance video and

56:04

jesus said to me that's your worst sin

56:07

and it just crushed me and i wept and i

56:09

repented deeply and then

56:12

embarked upon a thorough rethinking

56:16

of all things pertaining to war and out

56:18

of that came i got a stack of my books

56:20

here

56:20

out of that came my um

56:24

the book of farewell to mars which at

56:25

the time i think what's the i think this

56:27

is like a

56:28

2014 copyright yeah 2014 so as i

56:32

probably wrote in 2013.

56:33

at the time before writing this i

56:36

thought

56:37

i said i'm going to write a book that

56:39

really makes the case

56:42

that you can't wage war and follow jesus

56:44

at the same time you got to choose

56:46

but i thought i'll wait till i'm older

56:48

until i had less to lose

56:51

and then my grandchildren were born uh i

56:54

have

56:55

seven and soon to be eight grandchildren

56:57

but at the time i had three so it's

56:59

dedicated

57:00

for jude mercy and finn

57:03

i want to read the uh what i call it the

57:05

prelude

57:06

i i introduced the book by

57:10

writing a little inscription to the book

57:12

itself

57:13

it goes like this dear little book i had

57:16

to write you

57:17

you wouldn't let me sleep until you were

57:19

written

57:20

you were rude in your insistence

57:24

i had thought i would wait till i was

57:25

older till i had less to lose before i

57:28

wrote you

57:29

but then jude mercy and finn came along

57:32

and you insisted on being written for

57:34

them

57:35

so i did your bidding now you were

57:37

written

57:38

soon you will be let loose to go where

57:41

you will

57:42

and speak to whom you may try not to

57:45

cause me too much trouble

57:47

at least be kind enough to remind your

57:49

readers that in writing you i only told

57:52

the truth

57:53

i wish you well you're somewhat

57:55

reluctant author

57:56

branson now now that was six or seven

58:00

years ago the book came out

58:02

that book has actually caused me very

58:03

little trouble

58:05

and uh i've had an awful lot of

58:09

very in-depth conversations with career

58:12

military men who appreciate the book

58:15

the the only mindless criticism i get

58:17

from are are from the

58:19

or from people that never really had

58:20

anything to do with military

58:22

but you know they they think that their

58:24

their service is covered with

58:27

you know saying to somebody thank you

58:28

for your service and we'll let you get

58:29

on the airplane first

58:31

i've had probably i don't know probably

58:34

close to 10

58:35

letters and emails and even a few visits

58:37

from career military people who read the

58:39

book and

58:40

resigned their commissions left the

58:41

military because of that

58:44

and uh i so anyway

58:47

if it's okay to say i'm more or less

58:50

proud of that book i stand by that book

58:52

yeah it's highly recommended

58:54

particularly for anyone who's struggling

58:56

with that

58:57

relationship between war and jesus

59:01

i know that many many followers of

59:03

christ are kind of having a reckoning

59:06

when it comes to how can i how do i how

59:09

do i frame that how do i how do i hold

59:10

these two things

59:12

i highly recommend that book can you

59:14

brian then

59:15

tell us about how do you reckon that

59:17

with the old testament and the violence

59:19

in the old testament

59:20

there's a lot to be said about that

59:23

look let's not let's let's be honest

59:26

about it then

59:27

let's not uh let's not just you know

59:29

confine it to david and goliath or you

59:31

know

59:32

israelites versus philistines let's just

59:35

jump into it let's go to like for

59:37

example i think it's first samuel 15

59:40

where the prophet samuel

59:43

instructs king saul to go

59:47

annihilate the amalekites and this is

59:50

the reason why because

59:52

centuries earlier they had refused aid

59:55

to israel as they were arriving in

59:57

canaan

59:58

and the command is to kill

60:02

and there's four categories of people

60:03

men women children and babies

60:06

okay i'm not making this up this is

60:08

there

60:10

because of a crime or a lack of

60:13

hospitality

60:14

provided to israel centuries earlier

60:18

now this particular people group is to

60:21

be annihilated

60:22

men women children and babies okay

60:25

killing men that's what happens in war

60:27

we can discuss

60:28

you know how that compatible that is

60:30

with the way of christ but killing women

60:32

and then children and then we were given

60:34

finally another category of babies

60:36

you know folks that's war crimes you do

60:39

that today and you'll end up in the

60:40

hague

60:41

you know and uh so i asked people this

60:44

question

60:45

would you kill babies if god told you to

60:51

that's just you know and so

60:55

first of all first of all first thing i

60:56

said to that is there's only one correct

60:59

answer

61:00

yes and the answer is no and if you say

61:04

yes we um kyle and i could go off on a

61:07

whole discussion on

61:09

and uh transcending the ethical

61:13

and you know fear and trembling i have

61:16

pro i like kurt good i have whole

61:17

problems with that

61:18

um see

61:22

would you kill babies if god told you to

61:24

uh

61:25

the only answer that is consistent with

61:28

a well-formed conscience

61:29

is no you say even first of all i i

61:33

can't trust myself

61:35

to discern god well enough to risk that

61:38

i'm killing a baby and oops got it wrong

61:41

or i can't i can't violate my own

61:43

conscience i would just finally have to

61:45

stand my ground and say god if you want

61:46

to kill babies you're on your own there

61:47

i'm not doing it for you

61:51

but the problem is the this is the

61:52

question you're really at you're asking

61:54

me a bible question because that story

61:56

is there

61:57

okay you've got three options

62:00

and there's only three and you may not

62:02

like any of them

62:03

so pick your poison one you can

62:07

you can question the morality of god you

62:10

can say

62:10

okay or the morality of it but say it

62:13

that way

62:13

uh that ordinarily to kill babies is

62:15

frowned upon and we consider that

62:17

you know beyond the pale but if god

62:19

commands it

62:21

then it's it's okay well

62:24

you know that opens the door for future

62:27

atrocities

62:28

and it's happened i can't do that others

62:31

maybe can maybe they say well if god

62:33

says

62:33

to do it it's okay i say look god you

62:36

gave me a conscience i can't sin against

62:38

my own conscience

62:39

secondly well then you can question the

62:41

immutability of god

62:43

you can say well once upon a time you

62:45

know god ordered stuff like that but

62:47

over time he's changed god has mutated

62:49

he's not immutable he's mutating

62:51

he's moving beyond a history of violence

62:53

into something other

62:55

others many can do that i can't

62:58

uh i'm a classical theist in that sense

63:00

i hold to the immutability of god if god

63:02

is in the process of change and the very

63:04

ground beneath my feet is moving and

63:06

what do i stand upon

63:08

and so that leaves a third option and

63:09

that's that we question

63:11

what we mean when we talk about the

63:14

inspiration of

63:15

scripture we have to question how we

63:17

read scripture

63:19

i view the old testament first of all

63:20

it's canonical okay

63:22

so it's part of our ongoing conversation

63:25

that forms our theology

63:26

but i understand the old testament as

63:28

the inspired telling of israel's story

63:31

of coming to know the living god

63:33

but along the way assumptions are made

63:37

make no mistake about it the old

63:39

testament

63:40

does not speak in a univocal manner

63:42

about many things

63:44

i mean if you ask the old testament hey

63:46

does god require ritual blood sacrifice

63:49

uh the priest and moses and deuteronomy

63:51

and others say

63:52

yeah and here's how you should do it and

63:54

i can show you the verses in leviticus

63:56

where it says

63:57

that sin offerings are required day by

63:59

day but then you keep moving on

64:01

and you get to psalms and in psalm 40

64:04

the psalmist says

64:05

you know you've opened my ears and sin

64:09

offering and burnt offering you have not

64:11

required

64:13

and then hosea becomes bold enough to

64:15

speak in the name of yahweh

64:16

and say thus saith the lord i desire

64:19

mercy

64:19

and not sacrifice and so

64:23

the bible the old testament especially

64:24

doesn't stand above

64:26

the story it tells but is fully immersed

64:28

in it the bible itself

64:30

is on the journey to discover the true

64:32

word of god so you start with it

64:34

you allow the story to be told you

64:36

journey with it but you don't

64:37

stop until you get to jesus

64:41

the bible's a little bit like a m night

64:44

shyamalan or whatever his name is movie

64:47

that you have to get to the end of it

64:48

before you can look back and and

64:51

properly understand the earlier pores

64:53

it's like watching sixth sense

64:55

you know you watch that movie and you

64:57

get to the end and you go how did i miss

64:59

it

65:00

it was there all along and so um

65:04

i have an orthodox friend that he's a

65:06

priest theologian

65:08

he he he has no problem with simply

65:10

saying well you know samuel god used

65:12

samuel but samuel was also just kind of

65:14

a

65:14

bigoted old curmudgeon that couldn't

65:16

that didn't like amalekites

65:18

and uh operated in his own assumptions

65:21

and

65:22

wanted israel to kill the malachites if

65:24

in fact that's even what happened

65:26

you know part of this is how the story

65:27

is being told so

65:30

i i simply have no problem with

65:33

with seeing the bible as

65:37

on the journey itself

65:40

and this issue that you've raised is a

65:42

particularly

65:44

peculiarly almost exclusively

65:47

protestant problem uh and it's because

65:51

it's the only authority we have that

65:54

when there was the great i mean i know

65:55

there was the earlier schism east and

65:57

west but

65:58

when the great divorce came in the form

66:00

of the reformation which

66:03

we needed reformation the renaissance

66:04

church was hopelessly corrupt

66:07

uh but what instead of getting a full

66:08

reformation we got a divorce

66:10

and you know divorces can be ugly and

66:13

awful and the children suffer

66:16

and in the divorce settlement catholic

66:18

mom

66:20

got about everything protestant dad

66:23

didn't get much

66:24

but he got the bible and so those of us

66:27

that ended up with protestant dad

66:29

god bless him had to make the bible

66:32

everything yes it had

66:33

because we don't have the church we

66:34

don't have the tradition we don't have

66:36

the

66:36

really much of that sort of thing we

66:39

just we've just we've got the bible and

66:41

we're going to hold on to it for dear

66:42

life

66:43

and protestants have done a lot of very

66:46

good

66:47

work in scriptural scholarship but in

66:50

the end

66:52

we have placed more of a burden on the

66:55

bible

66:55

than it can bear and so we invent these

66:59

wild

66:59

ideas of infallibility and inerrancy and

67:02

all of that and apply these modern

67:04

categories

67:05

that make no sense to the text and

67:07

that's when we get ourselves in

67:08

situations where

67:10

if i can't claim absolutely that god

67:13

told

67:15

saul to kill babies then the whole thing

67:17

is a hoax

67:18

and we just don't have to go down that

67:20

road so i think ultimately it's

67:22

how we understand scriptures and

67:25

inspiration

67:26

and authority man can we say cheers to

67:28

that

67:29

brian i'm drinking a really tasty

67:32

buffalo trace but that

67:33

what you're spitting has me tingly warm

67:36

and tangy

67:38

so great so let me get to the question

67:41

that i've been

67:42

really excited to ask you anyone who

67:44

follows you on twitter knows your

67:45

deep and passionate love for bob dylan

67:48

and i've been wondering i i'd like to

67:51

put in a request brian

67:53

but within the next maybe decade you

67:55

need to write a book on the theology of

67:57

bob dylan that's just i think you owe it

67:59

to the world and particularly you owe it

68:01

to

68:02

hipster america but probably yeah

68:05

um and if if anyone can do it you can so

68:08

let me ask you if you if i said it's my

68:10

other canonical text i have two

68:12

canonical textbooks

68:13

you know good the holy scriptures and

68:15

bob dylan

68:16

praise the lord so you're writing a book

68:19

called the

68:19

theology according to bob dylan what

68:21

would some of the chapters be

68:22

what what what would theology according

68:24

to bob dylan

68:26

feel like sound like tastes like well

68:28

let's see one of my books already has a

68:30

chapter entitled shelter from the storm

68:33

which is a you know a bob dylan song

68:37

not dark yet i might have to have that

68:40

there's an album called oh mercy

68:44

dylan lives in a world well

68:47

first of all the thing about his his

68:50

lyrics are so vast

68:52

so sprawling he's created a world

68:55

with with people and characters and

68:57

geography and places

68:59

and it is a world where god is very

69:02

present

69:04

where sin is real and the consequences

69:06

of sin are real but also grace is

69:08

present

69:10

bob dylan had a real encounter

69:13

with jesus christ in 1979 and that sort

69:16

of

69:18

that sort of reinvigorated his judaism

69:21

if you asked dylan today

69:24

if you if first of all he wouldn't

69:25

answer your question but i mean if you

69:27

somehow could make him talk

69:30

you'd say what's your religion he'd say

69:31

i'm i'm jewish but if you followed up do

69:34

you believe that jesus

69:36

is the son of god he is he would say

69:37

yeah

69:39

and he just he's not going to be

69:42

told that he can't do both at the same

69:45

time because he does

69:47

and what i find is what i find

69:48

interesting in fact is that he's jewish

69:51

and that he might be

69:55

a closer picture of what a hebrew

69:58

prophet was like

70:00

than your you know a standard

70:02

evangelical preacher

70:04

in that the hebrew prophets were poets

70:08

and dylan is a poet and the poetic and

70:12

the prophetic

70:13

are sometimes it seems like they're

70:16

related

70:17

and dylan seems to have this very unique

70:20

gift

70:22

to say something without to find a point

70:24

on it

70:26

to leave it open-ended so that it

70:28

doesn't

70:29

you know if you write a protest song

70:31

that is very specific

70:32

about one issue at one particular time

70:35

in one particular nation

70:37

you know it's got a pretty short life

70:38

span dylan seems to be

70:41

like you know whoever who you want to

70:43

pick jeremiah or isaiah whoever

70:46

whose poems are speaking to something

70:50

that was

70:50

real and current at the time but are

70:54

evasive enough and to give enough space

70:58

that they're still speaking to us then

71:00

you know i can pick up jeremiah and just

71:02

flip

71:02

open to it and find you know on any

71:04

given page i can probably find something

71:06

that i'll say that's speaking to me

71:08

right now and dylan seems similar to

71:10

that so and so so in one sense

71:12

you know the rock and roll artist that's

71:14

going to be given the nobel prize

71:16

for his lyrics in one sense he had to be

71:19

jewish

71:20

it just seemed like he had to be in that

71:23

tradition

71:24

i think that's right my my personal

71:26

favorite lyricist is leonard cohen

71:28

also jewish yeah exactly

71:32

and dylan loved him too for that reason

71:34

yeah yeah i'm reminded

71:35

or i'm wondering are there any

71:36

similarities would you say brian between

71:38

dylan

71:38

and heschel even sure i mean one of the

71:41

most influential books i think i've ever

71:42

read is

71:43

is uh heschel's the prophets

71:47

um masterpiece yep yeah again

71:50

and again that would be a book that had

71:52

to be written by a jew

71:54

you know who's gonna who's gonna write

71:55

out the prophets but heschel

71:57

yeah and um yeah

72:01

i had a dream one time where i i met

72:04

father abraham it's a long i won't try

72:08

to tell the whole story

72:11

in the dream he was abraham the

72:12

patriarch but but he had the exact

72:15

appearance

72:16

of abraham joshua heschel and it was an

72:19

interesting dream

72:20

are you working on anything that uh yeah

72:23

i mean

72:24

i'm i'm i'm working i'm gonna finish up

72:27

probably in january

72:29

my 10th book in 12 years so

72:33

i have been writing um

72:36

but i i've submitted to ivp

72:39

as of a few weeks ago a completed

72:41

manuscript entitled what can we do

72:44

when everything's on fire they'll

72:46

probably

72:47

try to change the title and they will

72:49

probably not succeed

72:52

i mean technically the publisher you

72:54

know has the right to give it the title

72:55

but i can be pretty stubborn when i set

72:57

my mind to it

72:58

and uh kyle this book

73:02

more or less opens with a retelling

73:05

of nietzsche's parable of the madman

73:09

i teach that every semester where is god

73:12

and we can't find god remember he's i

73:14

don't have to tell you but you know he's

73:15

got

73:16

he's got the lantern and it's you know

73:18

bright sunny day

73:19

we cannot find god we're looking for god

73:22

and and

73:22

and the villagers think this is

73:24

ludicrous and they're making fun of him

73:26

and mocking him

73:27

and finally he smashes the lantern and

73:29

says oh i see i've come too soon

73:31

and uh but now i'm kind of riffing on

73:34

the idea that

73:35

that the madman's lantern

73:38

was sort of like mrs o'leary's

73:42

lantern that the cow kicks over and now

73:45

we're living

73:46

in a time whenever when all kinds of

73:49

faith

73:50

is imperiled by these flames and so

73:54

this is a book where ultimately i don't

73:57

i never

73:57

well maybe i do say this i probably do

73:59

say this but i'm

74:00

trying to i'm speaking to people that

74:03

are going through

74:04

deconstruction and i want to try to be a

74:06

trusted guide i want to walk them

74:09

through this so you don't have to lose

74:10

everything

74:11

there's a way to make it through and so

74:13

i i i have a chapter entitled

74:16

deconstructing deconstruction and we

74:19

look at daradah a little bit and some

74:20

other things so

74:21

i'm pretty excited about this book um

74:24

the full-on you know

74:25

serious philosophers i don't know they

74:28

make me nervous they'll probably tell me

74:30

17 things that are wrong with what i'm

74:31

doing but that's not really what the

74:34

book about the book is really about

74:35

trying to help christians hold on to

74:37

their faith

74:38

so that that's that will come out

74:40

sometime next year don't have a

74:42

publication date and i'm this is my

74:44

writing desk i'm

74:45

seated at my writing desk right now i'm

74:48

working on a

74:49

an advent devotion the anticipated

74:53

christ

74:54

and you know that'll come out the

74:56

problem is i'm writing

74:57

i'm writing enough that you get into

74:59

conflicts you can't release two books

75:01

too close to each other so

75:03

that's must be a nice problem to have

75:06

so yeah i've got plenty going on where

75:10

can our listen

75:11

listeners find your books your stuff

75:13

well uh

75:14

zond z-a-h-n-d is a great

75:17

filter there's there's pl there's a

75:21

there's a

75:21

fair amount of zones in switzerland but

75:23

there's not many of us here so if you

75:25

just put zond in front of all kinds

75:27

if you just google zone you'll find me

75:29

probably but

75:30

i have a website today now and then do a

75:33

blog post but vlogging is so

75:36

2010-ish you know we hardly do it

75:38

anymore

75:39

i mean i do now then i have in the last

75:41

week or so but

75:42

brianzan.com i'm active on twitter where

75:45

i'm something of a provocateur i think

75:47

i'm actually a

75:48

kinder gentler soul than i appear on

75:50

twitter

75:51

i hope i'm trying and instagram facebook

75:56

amazon you can find my books yup that

75:58

sort of thing awesome

76:00

brian zond thank you so much again for

76:02

your time thanks for being with us

76:03

it's been a pleasure well cheers i you

76:05

know i mean i don't trust myself to

76:08

talk for over an hour and a half with a

76:11

with a

76:12

glass of whiskey with a beverage in my

76:13

hand you know but i'm gonna go

76:15

i'm gonna i'm gonna go get one enjoy the

76:18

hard bag or whatever you end up with

76:21

thanks for spending this time with us we

76:23

really hope that you're enjoying these

76:25

conversations

76:25

as much as we are and if you are help us

76:28

get the word out

76:29

before you close your podcast app leave

76:31

a rating or a review

76:32

that helps new listeners find us maybe

76:34

for the first time

76:35

if you'd like to share the episode you

76:36

just heard with a friend or a family

76:38

member

76:38

you can find those links on our social

76:40

media pages you can also find us over on

76:42

patreon

76:43

at patreon.com a pastor and a

76:45

philosopher

76:46

and that's going to work well for you

76:47

whether you're a kind enough person to

76:49

financially support us out of the

76:50

goodness of your heart

76:51

or if you're just looking for merch or

76:53

the chance for a private tasting

76:55

thanks again for listening until next

76:57

time this has been a pastor and a

76:59

philosopher

76:59

walk into a bar