In this episode, we chat with Brian Zahnd about his journey from a militaristic, warmongering brand of Christianity to a more peace-loving, Jesus-centered way. Along the way, we touch on everything from his take on the current state of the American church, the Christian's role in the state, the book of Revelation, his favorite philosophers, Christian ethics, the Bible, and Bob Dylan.
The whiskey featured in this episode is a special store pick single barrel select edition of Buffalo Trace bourbon from our friends at Story Hill BKC. The scotch Brian mentions is Ardbeg Corryvreckan.
AUDIO NOTE: Brian's and Kyle's audio are not quite up to our usual smooth production standard in this episode, because some recording equipment was lost in the mail. Thanks USPS!
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
In this episode, we chat with Brian Zahnd about his journey from a militaristic, warmongering brand of Christianity to a more peace-loving, Jesus-centered way. Along the way, we touch on everything from his take on the current state of the American church, the Christian's role in the state, the book of Revelation, his favorite philosophers, Christian ethics, the Bible, and Bob Dylan.
The whiskey featured in this episode is a special store pick single barrel select edition of Buffalo Trace bourbon from our friends at Story Hill BKC. The scotch Brian mentions is Ardbeg Corryvreckan.
AUDIO NOTE: Brian's and Kyle's audio are not quite up to our usual smooth production standard in this episode, because some recording equipment was lost in the mail. Thanks USPS!
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
00:00
[Music]
00:14
welcome to a pastor and a philosopher
00:16
walk into a bar
00:17
the podcast where we mix a sometimes
00:19
weird but always delicious cocktail of
00:21
theology
00:22
philosophy and spirituality
00:28
well welcome friends to another episode
00:31
of a pastor and a philosopher walking to
00:32
a bar
00:33
i'm excited about today's episode i'm
00:35
always excited about our episodes but
00:37
today's a fun one
00:38
we have a fun guest his name is brian
00:40
zond which
00:42
hopefully many of you recognize and know
00:44
and love already
00:46
and perhaps hopefully also some of you
00:47
don't and i think you're in for a real
00:49
treat if you don't know who brian zond
00:51
is
00:51
today is going to be a treat you're
00:53
welcome in advance
00:55
yeah this is a good one i'm excited
00:56
about this episode yeah we talk about
00:58
everything from
00:59
the book of revelation to bob dylan so
01:02
get ready yeah he's one of those guys
01:04
you could just talk to for
01:06
hours i feel like if you wanted to i
01:08
absolutely could have easy
01:09
i think part of it is that he's southern
01:11
maybe i'm biased
01:13
but i just find it easier to talk to
01:14
southern people sometimes
01:17
yeah yeah they're just like noah's you
01:19
know no assumptions no whatever chill
01:21
laid back
01:21
yeah i feel like southern people taking
01:23
a flack from us northerners our elite
01:25
us elitists let's give them a little
01:27
credit they're they're better to talk to
01:29
absolutely i don't think i shared with
01:31
you guys either i brian's
01:32
brian's been in my twitter feed for a
01:34
long time just one of those people that
01:36
i've followed over the years
01:38
and i've really appreciated his presence
01:41
through
01:41
what's been my kind of deconstruction or
01:43
just journey away from
01:45
uh my more evangelical roots and
01:49
but still trying to hold on to the
01:50
scripture and hold on to jesus and
01:52
understand how this all shapes out
01:55
he's been one of those voices that's
01:56
he's
01:58
like there's something about him that
02:00
still holds holds closely to the church
02:02
and loves
02:03
uh loves these things that are so
02:05
central to my faith
02:06
but he he's also willing to step outside
02:09
of those things i've just
02:10
appreciated that consistently over the
02:12
years that i've been
02:13
just watching him and being ministered
02:15
to him from a distance so
02:17
it's really fun to get to see him on the
02:18
other side of the screen yeah
02:21
yeah he's a prophetic voice it's a it's
02:23
a good time
02:24
but first let's do a tasting i'm excited
02:26
about what we're going to taste
02:28
today this is from our friends at story
02:30
hill bkc if you're in milwaukee
02:32
you better know the name storyhillbkc
02:35
and i gotta tell you this
02:37
product that we're gonna sample today
02:38
i'm pretty sure it's something that
02:40
you're gonna wanna run out and get
02:41
because it is limited
02:42
and it is really fun today we're
02:44
drinking buffalo trace which
02:46
already that's that's enough right there
02:49
saying you're drinking buffalo trees
02:50
it's hard to find
02:51
remarkably yeah yeah when i first
02:53
started getting into bourbon
02:55
names like eagle rare and buffalo trace
02:56
were everywhere and they are not anymore
02:59
i don't know why maybe you know kyle you
03:01
oh the reason the reason is simple
03:02
it's because the pappy van winkle craze
03:05
took off and then people started looking
03:06
for everything else that buffalo trace
03:08
makes
03:09
and so you know the higher expressions
03:11
became harder to get
03:12
and then suddenly the not so shouldn't
03:16
be hard to find stuff like eagle rare
03:17
suddenly becomes allocated and you can't
03:19
even find that at your average liquor
03:21
store anymore
03:22
and now buffalo trace itself which is
03:23
like the entry level expression for the
03:25
distillery
03:26
one of the best deals in whiskey at
03:28
usually about 20 a bottle
03:30
and now you can't find it sitting on a
03:32
shelf anywhere yep
03:33
but it but it is buffalo trace is in
03:35
milwaukee right here
03:37
yep yep we know where you can get some
03:38
and not just any this is a
03:40
this is a special bottling why don't you
03:42
tell us about that randy yeah so
03:44
our friends at story hill bkc have a
03:46
relationship with
03:47
um the buffalo trace distillery and they
03:49
were invited out
03:51
to come and take their pick of a barrel
03:53
so
03:54
most buffalo trace that you drink if not
03:56
all buffalo trace that you drink is a
03:57
blend of a number of different barrels
03:59
that the master distiller
04:00
puts together thinks is the best and
04:03
that's how you get it
04:04
this right here that we're drinking
04:05
tonight is a single barrel
04:07
select release so our friends from the
04:09
story hill bkc went
04:11
sampled seven different barrels and said
04:13
this is the one we want
04:14
and then they came home with 250-ish
04:18
bottles and they only have about 30 left
04:20
that was about a week when i
04:22
ago when i heard it so there's there's
04:23
about two dozen of these bottles left
04:26
go get one now well let's taste it and
04:28
find out if we can say go get one now
04:30
yeah
04:35
yeah i feel like this has a much
04:36
stronger barrel presence than the
04:39
typical
04:40
i know that's like a really vague thing
04:42
to say but uh the
04:44
the oak the vanilla comes through much
04:46
stronger for me
04:47
it's it feels like a higher proof even
04:48
though i don't think it is yeah this is
04:50
45
04:51
it's so it's for me it's kind of like
04:54
this is a journey like it starts sweet
04:56
right away sweet and then it it goes
04:58
savory
04:59
cinnamon and nutmeg but then the the
05:02
lasting flavor is more
05:04
citrus and like the the zesty
05:07
yummy it's this is all good
05:10
yeah first of all i'll say indeed go get
05:13
it right now
05:14
from story hill bkc if you're in
05:15
milwaukee if you're around milwaukee
05:18
make the drive but for me it's yeah
05:20
cinnamon is major here
05:22
in in this in this bottle the barrel
05:24
presents like you said kyle but for me
05:26
the after flavor that i was just
05:28
like loving indefinitely was vanilla
05:31
yeah lots of vanilla on the back of the
05:33
pan it lingers it has a much longer
05:34
finish than the typical buffalo trace
05:36
that i've had
05:37
this is way better than any buffalo
05:38
trace i've had and here's what our
05:40
friends at storehillbkc recommended as
05:41
well is
05:42
try to grab a regular bottle of buffalo
05:44
trace and then grab
05:45
this as well and just have a fun night
05:48
doing your own tasting
05:49
comparing them yeah that would be fun
05:51
let's do that this is delicious this is
05:53
i would say this is definitely the best
05:54
buffalo choice i've ever had really
05:56
really good
05:57
yeah good stuff so rush down there and
05:59
get you a bottle before they're gone
06:00
yeah tell them that we sent you just say
06:03
that you heard about it on a pastor
06:04
philosopher walk into a bar
06:06
do that and if you're not in milwaukee
06:08
find a local place to support and
06:10
support their pants off
06:13
cheers cheers there's where
06:16
wisconsin comes through cheers cares
06:20
oh yeah well brian zond thank you so
06:23
much for taking time and
06:24
talking with us welcome to a pastor and
06:26
philosopher walking to a bar
06:28
oh good to be with you i like the name
06:30
of the podcast
06:32
yeah that's a good one my wife named it
06:34
so i'll tell you that
06:35
all right there you go there you go we
06:37
do have as part of our theme
06:39
uh where pastor and philosopher walk
06:41
into a bar so if there's anything you
06:42
have next to you that
06:44
uh you know you're drinking that you
06:45
want to mention them you know i'll wait
06:47
till i'm done
06:50
i i feel like maybe some ardbeg
06:54
oh cory of reckon tonight but we'll wait
06:57
till i'm done
06:58
my wife and i actually honeymooned in
07:00
scotland a few years ago and
07:01
spent most of our time on the isla yeah
07:04
i've been there
07:05
i've been there and i've i've been to
07:07
all those uh
07:08
distilleries and perry and i that's my
07:10
wife we're planning on going back
07:13
next year assuming we can do such things
07:16
and walk the
07:17
saint cuthberg's way and then and then
07:20
hang out on isla
07:21
yeah it's the place to be perry wants to
07:24
go to uh what's the what's
07:26
she likes the spiritual island and i
07:27
like the spirit island
07:30
what's the other one the little tiny one
07:33
that's that's known for its little tiny
07:35
monasteries so
07:36
we have the spiritual island and the
07:38
spirit island
07:39
nice both important right
07:43
brian for our listeners who might not be
07:45
familiar with who you are what you do
07:47
can you just tell us a little bit about
07:48
yourself
07:49
um well i'm a pastor
07:53
and uh i encountered jesus
07:57
when i was 16 years old that was a long
08:00
time ago i'm 61 now
08:02
so you just invert those numbers and
08:06
overnight i went from being the high
08:07
school zeppelin freak to the high school
08:10
jesus freak
08:11
it was uh it was no small news
08:15
and by the time i was 17 i was leading a
08:17
ministry that was this is during the
08:19
jesus movement
08:20
we called we called it a coffee house it
08:23
was mostly a music venue for the jesus
08:25
music scene of those days
08:27
that uh essentially i was leading and
08:30
pastoring and
08:31
you know leading kids to jesus that
08:35
turned
08:35
into our church
08:38
in november of 1981 so 39 years ago so i
08:41
tell people
08:43
i've been a pastor longer than i've been
08:46
an
08:46
adult and uh
08:49
so i mean officially officially i became
08:52
a pastor when i was 22.
08:54
but essentially i've been doing it since
08:56
i was 17.
08:57
so now you know there's been all kinds
09:01
of twists and turns and
09:03
all of that over those 39 or 45 years
09:06
depending on how you
09:06
think of it but you know when all said
09:09
and done yeah i write books
09:11
i used to travel before covid i speak a
09:13
lot i do all of that sort of stuff
09:15
but as far as vocationally i'm a pastor
09:19
that's really what i am
09:20
love it of one church for almost now 40
09:23
years
09:23
yeah that's incredible first question
09:25
about what you just said
09:26
you you said you went from a zeppelin
09:28
freak to a jesus freak you didn't lose
09:30
the zeppelin when you met jesus though
09:31
did you
09:33
no no oh no
09:36
i just no yes you know if you know
09:39
anything about me you know i i'm a music
09:41
neurotic
09:42
i know you are i love music and uh
09:45
zeppelin still
09:46
maintains a lofty perch in my pantheon
09:49
yes
09:49
i'm ashamed to say i did have the phase
09:51
where i threw out all my zeppelin albums
09:53
and then regretted it later
09:54
yeah yeah dang it yeah
09:57
that's too bad yeah i did too for
10:00
but it didn't last long and it was
10:02
always half-hearted
10:05
i just kept that the reality that i
10:07
listened to zeppelin from my parents
10:08
they never knew
10:09
so so brian the fact that you have
10:12
pastored the same church for
10:14
about 40 years is remarkable in
10:17
particularly because
10:18
i know your story but that you went
10:21
through a major
10:22
faith deconstruction reconstruction you
10:24
you went through the whole ringer
10:26
while in ministry while leading that
10:28
church
10:29
can you tell us a little bit about that
10:31
what what kind of brand of christian
10:33
were you before that and then what
10:35
what was the trick just tell us about
10:37
that process
10:38
well as i said i started off in the
10:40
jesus movement
10:42
not that i made a choice it's just what
10:44
happened
10:45
and that led us into the charismatic
10:48
movement which i described as good until
10:50
it wasn't
10:53
and then you know that kind of led into
10:55
various forms of word of faith and all
10:57
of that sort of stuff
10:59
never really making a decision it's just
11:01
kind of what happened
11:03
and as i entered my 40s i began to have
11:07
a
11:08
deep sense of discontent
11:13
and i thought how did i get here i
11:15
started off as a radical jesus freak and
11:17
what am i going to end up just as a a
11:20
republican with a
11:21
jesus fish on his suv sounds about right
11:24
it's like i got on the wrong bus
11:25
somewhere and i thought how did i
11:27
get here and did word of life grow and
11:29
get big by that point
11:31
oh yeah it yeah it started off small and
11:33
then got a little bit bigger and then
11:34
got ridiculously huge
11:37
and in the 90s and that was exhilarating
11:40
i mean it was fun
11:44
uh to have that kind of growth but as we
11:47
came to the end of the 90s and going
11:48
into 2000
11:50
and you know i was just i was just
11:52
discontent
11:53
i didn't ever really have a crisis of
11:55
faith regarding
11:56
jesus i just felt like
11:59
the jesus that i loved deserved a better
12:02
christianity than i knew
12:04
and i didn't know where to find it so i
12:07
what i did was i thought well i'm just
12:09
gonna back up
12:11
and i um i started reading
12:14
church fathers which you know we were
12:16
not necessarily encouraged to do in the
12:18
charismatic movement
12:19
absolutely and so so i started reading
12:22
church fathers
12:23
and philosophy because i'd always kind
12:25
of liked philosophy
12:27
again that was sort of dismissed but i
12:28
thought well okay i'm gonna
12:30
i read it on the sly you know when
12:33
people weren't looking
12:34
and so i was reading patristics and
12:37
philosophy
12:38
and maybe just i would call it the canon
12:40
of western literature
12:42
and i did that for about four years
12:45
without it necessarily
12:46
erupting in who i was and in my
12:49
preaching but by the time i reached 2004
12:51
that all changed
12:53
and um i i remember announcing to my
12:56
church in 2004
12:57
that i was packing my bags and moving on
13:01
from the charismatic movement now
13:02
packing my bags meant that i was going
13:04
to take you know that which was viable i
13:05
would keep
13:06
and i did it with enough rhetorical
13:08
skill that they all
13:10
applauded when i announced this
13:12
[Laughter]
13:14
until i actually did it yeah and and
13:17
then we went through a period where we
13:18
lost
13:19
we lost over a thousand people
13:22
and these are these are people that i
13:25
had
13:25
maybe these are people we knew and loved
13:28
yeah
13:28
that maybe i'd led to the lord baptized
13:31
married
13:32
baptized their children married their
13:35
children
13:36
and uh they were leaving and saying mean
13:38
things like they thought i was
13:40
backslidden and i thought i think i've
13:43
front slidden
13:45
i've never been more passionate about
13:48
jesus
13:48
yeah than i am right now but so many
13:51
people couldn't understand that so that
13:53
was a
13:54
what was it like well i think it's an
13:57
interesting story i mean i tell it in my
13:59
it's kind of a memoir memoirish water to
14:02
wine
14:03
uh it was it was heaven and hell
14:07
simultaneously it was heaven in that
14:11
and i'll say we because my wife was with
14:14
me every step of the way there was never
14:15
any
14:17
any um disagreement on that
14:21
and i just felt like what i was
14:23
discovering
14:24
in a rich robust
14:27
theological tradition was what i'd been
14:29
really looking for all of my life and so
14:31
that was heaven
14:32
but to lose friends and all of that and
14:34
the pressure that comes from that
14:36
it was it was a very painful and
14:38
difficult time now
14:40
i want people to know that we're through
14:41
that time and we're
14:43
happy and healthy and the church is good
14:44
so you don't have to like feel sorry for
14:46
me
14:46
uh it's it's good but it was it was hell
14:49
going through it
14:50
and it was it was i don't like you
14:52
saying this because i think it
14:54
it alarms maybe pastors but it was 10
14:57
years to go through it was 10 years that
14:59
was hard
15:00
and from let's say 2004 to 2014.
15:04
um and i think part of what makes it
15:05
interesting is i did it
15:07
relatively publicly
15:10
and um i think that's why maybe people
15:13
find it interesting that
15:14
that i was able to more or less
15:18
take the church with me now you know
15:20
minus a thousand people
15:23
which is like half uh but you know
15:27
we were able to do it i can't imagine
15:29
the spiritual maturity that gets
15:31
cultivated when you go when a
15:33
group of people who you know hopefully
15:35
that thousand that you were left with
15:37
really saw each other's spiritual family
15:39
then
15:40
when they go through a collective
15:42
evolution of their theology together
15:45
like how does how incredibly discipling
15:48
is a 10-year journey of discovery in a
15:51
deeper dive into the rich heart of the
15:53
father son holy spirit i mean can you
15:54
tell us a little bit about that
15:57
uh well i think you just did i mean it
15:59
was like that
16:01
because we have the other side of the
16:02
story too that today
16:04
over the last i don't know five or six
16:06
years we've had people
16:08
and this doesn't happen very often but
16:10
we've had it
16:11
happen fairly regularly that that people
16:14
have
16:14
moved to little old saint joseph
16:16
missouri town of 70 000 in northwest
16:19
missouri
16:20
to be a part of our church and not a few
16:24
pastors who tried to go on some kind of
16:28
what i call it the water to wine journey
16:30
and ended up losing their pastoral
16:33
vocation
16:34
and have found word of life church as a
16:37
place of healing kind of a shelter from
16:39
the storm and
16:40
um it's been rewarding
16:45
no doubt but i have to be honest it
16:48
didn't come without pain
16:49
so as bob dylan says in one of his songs
16:53
behind every beautiful thing
16:54
there's been some kind of pain and uh
16:58
that's the truth would you still
17:00
describe yourself as charismatic or
17:05
it depends on who's asking if someone is
17:08
asking in a way expecting me to say no
17:11
i'll say yes
17:13
because i don't i don't use that very
17:16
often as a term of self-designation
17:19
i'm not trying to be evasive i don't we
17:21
don't really have a
17:22
good term for what we are i mean
17:26
you know on sunday mornings you're going
17:28
to have the
17:29
kind of rock and roll worship with drums
17:32
and guitars and all of that because i
17:34
belong to the generation that fought the
17:35
battle to get them in church
17:37
so i'm keeping them thank you by the way
17:40
but we're also liturgical and
17:42
sacramental
17:44
so we're kind of doing a lot of things
17:46
at the same time
17:47
so i don't know maybe we're rock and
17:51
roll liturgical
17:53
i don't i do seriously i don't have a
17:55
handy term but as far as
17:58
i mean it's not an emphasis
18:01
but i still think of myself as
18:03
charismatic in some ways
18:05
although when i look around at my
18:06
compatriots turning into trumpers
18:08
you know yeah i i don't get that at all
18:12
at all um but the idea of having a
18:16
a vibrant real experience of the holy
18:18
spirit
18:20
is uh well it's extremely new testament
18:22
for one thing
18:23
and i think that's something to aspire
18:24
to and hold on to yeah
18:26
you still believe in the gifts of the
18:27
spirit would you say yeah i do
18:30
but not in a kind of sensationalist not
18:33
a
18:33
cessationist or sensationalist way
18:37
i i don't think it's something to at
18:40
this point in time i don't feel the need
18:42
to make it our thing but
18:45
i actually believe that you know what
18:48
that that mystical experiences in the
18:51
spirit are
18:52
normative to the christian life and and
18:54
should be thought of that way
18:56
yeah it's ironic because i was just
18:57
listening to you referenced on twitter i
18:59
think last week
19:00
a message that message that you preached
19:02
five years ago i think almost to the day
19:05
that was a prophetic word for the church
19:07
that's the way you
19:08
framed it yeah i i'd forgotten about
19:11
that
19:11
and i was looking at some old notes and
19:14
came across that and then after i
19:16
tweeted that somebody had it might have
19:19
been someone at our church
19:21
it was somebody at our church actually
19:23
was that you
19:24
yeah that wasn't me but it was somebody
19:25
from our church yeah
19:27
yeah that i i don't know who produced it
19:30
maybe word of life i don't know and i
19:32
sat there and i listened to that
19:34
and i thought i think that was prophetic
19:39
i think so what are you going to say but
19:41
in a sad sort of way because
19:43
we failed the test i mean we in general
19:45
i don't think
19:46
all of us did but well first of all i'll
19:49
recommend to any listeners to go back
19:50
and listen to that
19:51
but could you give just a little a
19:53
little microcosm of that prophetic word
19:55
that you gave five years ago
19:57
i don't know if i can i mean uh
20:01
well i had the sense that we were
20:03
entering into a time of testing
20:06
whether we would follow the way of hate
20:07
or the way of love
20:09
and uh to this i don't i mean i just
20:11
came upon it and i sort of
20:13
tweeted that because i was looking at
20:15
what i'd said uh but i don't remember it
20:17
that well
20:19
but it seems to me that much
20:22
of the charismatic and certainly the
20:25
evangelical church in america
20:27
has failed that test and rallied around
20:30
a message of who we're going to hate
20:32
and of course scapegoating and hating
20:35
the other
20:36
is a very effective way of drawing
20:39
people together the only problem is that
20:41
it's demonic
20:43
so it's that little thing
20:46
so um yeah i know i i i don't have
20:50
notes with me about that i've got the
20:52
tweet here
20:53
it's um it says five years ago you're
20:56
looking at your your sermon notes and
20:57
the things that you were saying at that
20:58
time you were
20:59
saying that this is a dangerous time
21:01
it's gonna be a time of temptation
21:03
the church will be tested about how
21:05
we're how serious we are about following
21:07
jesus and satan will tempt us to react
21:09
in fear and hatred
21:10
bigotry and scapegoating um
21:14
yeah that came right there i just i just
21:16
took that verbatim from my sermon notes
21:18
and then the the clip of me
21:20
of the audio clip of me saying it you
21:22
can tell i'm obviously not just reading
21:23
notes i'm riffing on it
21:25
and uh yeah sounds pretty accurate to me
21:30
as far as i can be objective about
21:32
something i said five years ago it seems
21:34
like yeah i would say that was
21:35
relatively prophetic
21:36
yeah yeah i'm wanting to know for the
21:39
sake of my co-host here
21:41
brian as you you know you dove into the
21:44
patristics and
21:45
all that but you also said you you did a
21:47
lot of philosophy reading
21:49
what are some of your favorite
21:50
philosophers or what's some of your
21:51
favorite uh work that you discovered
21:53
well i don't know about favorite but the
21:56
the two philosophers i mean i you know
21:59
daradon
22:00
i did a fairly deep dive into and and
22:03
just you know
22:05
of course you gotta have your plato and
22:07
aristotle
22:08
but the two that i can that i would feel
22:10
comfortable around a phd
22:12
philosopher uh talking about would be
22:15
kirkegaard and nietzsche
22:18
and i think i'm really well read in both
22:20
of them
22:21
uh in a forthcoming book i finished the
22:24
manuscript but it'll come out
22:25
sometime next year i i talk about
22:29
the fantasy i have of nietzsche
22:32
and kirkegaard meeting one another
22:35
sitting down
22:36
to have lunch together because in some
22:40
ways they're saying something
22:41
very similar they didn't know of each
22:44
other
22:45
uh apparently nietzsche had perhaps
22:48
heard of kirkegaard
22:49
but had not read anything by him
22:52
you know quirky kirkegaard's a few years
22:54
older and he'd already died
22:56
but i mean quirky guard was hardly known
22:58
outside of copenhagen at that time
22:59
anyway
23:00
i think that would have been fascinating
23:02
and i think it's a bit
23:03
sad because i can i can just imagine
23:07
kirkegaard listening to nietzsche and
23:08
saying yes yes
23:10
yes but and
23:13
and kirkegaard could bring as a strident
23:17
critique of 19th century christendom as
23:20
nietzsche
23:21
but still found a way to hold on to
23:23
faith
23:24
and um i like reading nietzsche i agree
23:28
with him 75
23:29
of the time now the 25 percent i
23:32
disagree is like like
23:33
way important um here's the thing with
23:37
nietzsche he's he's one of the
23:39
as has been described one of the masters
23:41
of suspicion
23:43
along with freud and marx and i won't
23:44
talk much about freud and marx but
23:46
what nietzsche is suspicious of
23:49
is the reality of real love of true love
23:53
of christian love of co-suffering love
23:55
of altruistic love
23:56
he wants to dismiss it as
23:59
uh slave morality a way that the weak
24:02
manipulate the strong he
24:03
simply didn't believe that it could
24:05
exist
24:07
and um you know you wonder sometimes i
24:11
mean you can't separate philosophers
24:13
from who they are as human beings and
24:16
i'm not trying to be cute here but
24:18
i do seriously wonder how much of
24:21
nietzsche's philosophy was at least
24:23
influenced by the fact that he proposed
24:25
twice and was turned down twice
24:27
and he said the same thing well that's
24:30
true
24:31
that's true yeah he just he just needed
24:33
someone to
24:34
i think they'd both just have a pity
24:36
party over there romantic livestream
24:38
true true i just say that somebody
24:41
needed
24:42
someone to take him to the dairy queen
24:46
apparently he did have like close
24:48
friends though including
24:49
at least one clergyman who he maintained
24:52
a lifelong friendship with but
24:54
yeah those those are the two that that
24:56
i'm
24:57
i feel confident that i can say i'm well
24:59
read in and
25:00
to what extent they influenced me i i
25:03
you know you go through a phase
25:05
i think in 2006 i was reading too much
25:08
kirk garden it was slipping into my
25:10
preaching too much
25:12
and i look back and say yeah that
25:13
probably wasn't my best stuff but i
25:15
think
25:16
i think in some ways those that get
25:18
serious about
25:20
christian thought have to go through a
25:21
kirkengard phase i mean that's what bart
25:23
said
25:24
you have to go through it but then you
25:25
have to keep going
25:27
some people get stuck there right i
25:30
might be one of those people
25:31
i feel like if you ever take nietzsche
25:33
seriously in particular he never leaves
25:35
your head i feel like he's
25:36
he's been embedded in my brain since
25:38
yeah and supernate gerard's the same way
25:40
once you get that little girardian thing
25:42
in you it it's
25:44
it's there you're infected yeah so brian
25:47
i love
25:48
your your work on the book of revelation
25:50
i love your
25:51
your thoughts on it you did a really
25:53
really wonderful sermon series on it and
25:55
have kind of turned into an expert on
25:57
revelation in in many ways
25:58
i wouldn't go that far but okay okay all
26:00
right
26:01
i hope you're ready i haven't written a
26:03
uh i have written an introduction
26:05
in a study bible to revelation they i
26:08
was asked to do
26:10
what jonah matthew
26:13
titus in revelation which i said i don't
26:16
know anything about titus but
26:19
i'll read it a few times and see what i
26:21
can come up with but i was really glad
26:22
to do revelations yeah i've got two
26:24
books i want you to write they're the
26:25
randy and i request list
26:27
for brian's on one is a book on
26:28
revelation and because
26:30
we need it and two is a book that we'll
26:32
talk about later that i really want you
26:34
to write which is the theology of bob
26:36
dylan
26:36
but we'll get to that later so can you
26:40
give
26:40
our it could happen i
26:43
for for our listeners who aren't as
26:45
familiar with
26:47
a revelation that actually speaks to us
26:49
in our present moment
26:50
and also spoke to and was relevant for
26:52
its original
26:54
hearers and listeners uh and readers can
26:56
you just give us a
26:58
a revelation for dummies in about three
27:01
minutes or less
27:03
okay we'll see um
27:06
revelation is the book of revelation
27:10
is basically four things
27:14
first of all it's a prophetic and this
27:18
this might be the most difficult to
27:19
understand but it's a prophetic
27:20
interpretation
27:22
of the tumultuous events of the 60s and
27:25
70s
27:27
i don't mean the 1960s and 70s i mean
27:29
the 60s
27:30
and 70s i think
27:34
the book uses a literary device that
27:36
you'll find in the book of daniel
27:38
where it is positioning itself
27:42
as if it's predicting
27:45
future events when actually what it's
27:47
doing is looking back
27:49
probably about 20 to 30 years
27:52
20 years closer 20 25 years and giving a
27:55
prophetic interpretation
27:57
of what they've just been through the
28:00
most significant event during that time
28:03
would have been
28:03
the destruction of jerusalem in 1870
28:07
and uh the deportation of a whole lot of
28:09
slaves to rome
28:11
who were then employed in the
28:12
construction of the coliseum
28:14
and it was money from the jewish
28:16
treasury that largely
28:17
funded the construction of the coliseum
28:20
uh it was just a very difficult time a
28:22
crop failure
28:23
in egypt which was the bread basket of
28:25
the roman empire that created problems
28:27
there was some
28:28
plagues and and all sorts of things and
28:31
i think it's a very creative
28:32
interpretation of those events
28:34
secondly and maybe this is the most
28:36
important one the most prevalent one
28:38
it's a prophetic critique of the roman
28:42
empire
28:43
and so this is the beast i mean the
28:45
beast
28:47
is the roman empire 666 is
28:51
nero probably this is written during the
28:53
reign of domitian this is like in the
28:55
90s
28:56
but it's looking back on the uh
28:59
very strange and odd
29:02
reign of nero who at least according to
29:05
church tradition
29:07
uh put to death both peter and paul
29:11
and uh but it's simply pres because i
29:14
think by the time we get to the 90s
29:15
things are calming down and it's it's
29:19
easy for christians in the roman empire
29:22
to view the empires relatively benign
29:25
and sort of be be drawn into uh
29:28
be lulled to sleep anyway and i think
29:30
john the revelator is just
29:31
pounding the table saying no remember
29:33
this thing is a
29:34
beast and that at its heart
29:38
it is evil and destructive the third
29:40
thing i would say and this is maybe
29:42
related
29:43
and this is an application for for us
29:46
today
29:46
it's a prophetic expose of
29:50
uh empire and
29:54
civil religion about about how
29:57
how the worship of the
30:00
empire itself allegiance to the empire
30:04
itself can take on religious
30:05
overtones and then very often what
30:07
happens is in some way the empire needs
30:09
to be personified
30:11
and this is this is why this is how you
30:12
saw the rise of the emperor cult which
30:15
began in the eastern provinces
30:17
to whom this letter is addressed not in
30:19
rome because rome's too close to the
30:20
emperor they're never gonna
30:22
people that actually live in rome aren't
30:23
gonna believe this guy is a god
30:25
but the people out in the provinces are
30:27
being drawn
30:28
into the cult of emperor worship which
30:31
is
30:32
really a way of personifying the
30:35
empire into a single person and the book
30:38
of revelation is a very powerful
30:39
expose of that and then finally it it's
30:41
just a how would i say it it's a
30:43
it's a prophetic portrayal of the
30:46
ultimate triumph of christ that's the
30:48
one aspect
30:49
that i would say is future okay if
30:52
there's one thing that's
30:53
future it's just the the holy
30:56
imagination of saint john the revelator
30:59
as he portrays very creatively
31:02
artistically
31:03
the ultimate triumph of christ which
31:06
when he's
31:07
composing this i think is is amazing
31:10
that he did foresee that ultimately this
31:13
thing is going to triumph
31:14
i i'm i'm over my three minutes i'm
31:16
quite sure
31:18
but but i want to throw in one more
31:20
thing i see the book of revelation as
31:22
carrying aspects of a roman a
31:25
greco-roman play
31:27
complete with drama tragedy
31:31
comedy and chorus and you can see that
31:33
for example in chapter five
31:35
when john is is being
31:38
kind of hosted by the elder and we
31:42
were shown that in the right hand of the
31:44
one who sits upon a throne there is a
31:45
there is a scroll that seems to have
31:47
something to do with god's
31:48
intentions and purposes for humanity for
31:51
history
31:52
itself but it's sealed with seven seals
31:55
and before god's purposes let's say
31:58
redemptive purposes
32:00
can be unleashed someone has to be found
32:02
worthy
32:03
to break the seals and proclaim the
32:06
goodness of the scroll
32:07
and there's that's the drama and then
32:09
there's none
32:10
found worthy and john begins to weep
32:14
greatly that's the tragedy because i
32:16
mean what would be more tragic
32:18
than to think that the the way the world
32:21
has been is the way it has to be forever
32:24
okay but then the elder says hold on
32:26
don't weep don't weep
32:28
look the lion of the tribe of judah has
32:31
overcome
32:33
and is worthy to break the seals
32:36
and open the scroll and so so
32:39
so it's look the lion of the tribe of
32:42
judah and john looks and what does he
32:44
see
32:44
does he see a lion he does not see a
32:46
lion he sees a lamb
32:48
a little lamb a lamb a a little lamb
32:51
a baby lamb as if slain
32:54
but standing again so
32:58
let's say we're in the african serengeti
33:00
and we know there might be lions about
33:02
him we're walking along and i say
33:03
look a lion and and you look and it's in
33:06
installation
33:07
you know you laugh ha ha it's a joke
33:09
well
33:10
that is the comedic part of the book of
33:12
revelation
33:14
look the line of the tribe of jesus but
33:16
the lion is the lamb
33:17
people say you know jesus came as a lamb
33:19
he's coming back as a lion book of
33:20
revelation nonsense
33:21
there's no line in the book of
33:23
revelation there's only a lamb
33:26
and one of the comedic and of course
33:28
then what happens very
33:29
the very next thing that happens is the
33:30
chorus breaks out and there's all of
33:32
this
33:33
this anthem of praise that worthy is the
33:35
lamb
33:36
and so one of the one of the things i
33:38
love about the book of revelation
33:40
is you have this this comedy of these
33:43
beasts
33:44
with their seven heads and ten horns
33:46
that appear so
33:47
fearsome you know some sort of like
33:49
first century godzilla's
33:50
are being defeated by this tiny little
33:53
lamb
33:54
that has been slain but is still
33:55
standing on his feet okay
33:57
i was probably like seven or eight
33:59
minutes but anyway it's the best
34:00
standing ovation
34:01
good amazing job so i have a
34:04
quick follow-up if that's okay so for
34:06
our listeners who
34:07
hear prophecy and think future
34:11
like three out of the four things you
34:12
said included the word prophecy but the
34:14
first thing said it was about something
34:15
that happened 20 years ago so
34:17
can you just quickly explain how
34:19
something could be prophetic if it's not
34:20
actually about the future
34:21
yeah prophetic as in apocalyptic as in
34:25
you know apocalypses as as in revelation
34:28
that is that it is that it is re
34:31
it is revealing it is showing what has
34:35
been perhaps
34:36
obscured by propaganda
34:40
by lies by deceit
34:43
and at in its best form
34:47
prophecy is is the truth of god that
34:49
shines through all the dissimulation
34:52
that is so present in our corrupted
34:54
world
34:56
so maybe maybe prophecy is a
35:00
spirit-empowered truth-telling
35:03
we might think of it like that not not
35:06
not uh primarily prognostication
35:10
sure yeah if i did a sermon series in
35:13
revelation as well
35:15
and when when people ask me about
35:17
revelation or when i talk about
35:19
revelation i would say it's
35:20
i say it's primarily a book about
35:22
allegiance
35:23
um yes and that's not me that's michael
35:26
goreman and many others right but
35:28
right revelation is a book that's about
35:30
allegiance can you flush that
35:32
out a little bit particularly brian in
35:34
context of what we are living in right
35:37
now
35:37
as christians in america look i don't
35:39
think there's any
35:41
book of the bible that is more relevant
35:45
to a certain strand of american
35:48
christians right now than the book of
35:49
revelation but you're going to have to
35:50
learn how to read it right
35:52
yes i mean if you see it as
35:55
a you know foretelling of
35:58
you know global political events 2000
36:02
years from the time that it was written
36:03
then you're going to be off track but if
36:06
you can
36:07
see it as a true prophet
36:11
contending at a particular place and
36:13
time
36:14
that those who are baptized maintain
36:17
unrivaled allegiance to jesus christ as
36:20
lord and not be seduced
36:24
into compromising with the beast or with
36:27
some
36:28
form of the cult of infer worship so
36:30
that you end up with a 666
36:32
on your right hand or on your head if we
36:34
can see
36:35
that jesus is lord the seminal christian
36:39
confession
36:40
was originally heard in its original
36:43
context primarily as a political
36:45
statement not a religious state
36:47
then all of a sudden the book of
36:49
revelation has new
36:51
currency what happened was with the rise
36:54
of a so-called christian emperor
36:56
centuries later around the year 312 with
36:59
constantine
37:00
we're back to the to thinking well okay
37:02
caesar's kind of lord
37:04
too uh so jesus must have some
37:07
other role let's see oh what happens is
37:10
jesus gets demoted
37:12
from truly being lord to the secretary
37:14
of afterlife affairs there you go
37:16
and his his his uh job is really to get
37:20
us into heaven when we die
37:21
in the meantime we'll let caesar run the
37:23
world and then we get all caught up and
37:25
you know
37:25
is it our caesar and i am
37:28
i am political in the sense that
37:32
politics is simply you know the
37:34
discussion and the attempt at
37:36
human flourishing in a cooperative way
37:39
collective way and i think christ has
37:42
speaks to all of that
37:43
what i am not is partisan i'm
37:46
radically deeply sincerely this is not
37:50
you know rhetoric i'm committed
37:53
to the lamb i don't i don't follow
37:55
donkey don't follow an elephant i follow
37:57
the lamb
37:58
uh i have no allegiance
38:01
to partisanship i know i have no
38:05
particular allegiance to the united
38:07
states other than
38:08
i think i comport myself as a good
38:10
citizen
38:12
i'm happy to you know pay my fair share
38:15
of taxes
38:16
i wish that more of it would go to just
38:18
human flourishing unless
38:19
it would go to a wage anymore but i i'm
38:21
i don't i can't
38:23
control all of that but i regard my
38:26
citizenship as a philosophical
38:29
accidental
38:30
it's it's not ontologically part of who
38:32
i am
38:33
yeah i have a passport back when i used
38:35
to travel
38:36
you know it's blue it's got a seal of
38:39
the united states on it says i'm an
38:40
american okay fine
38:41
you know i hold that loosely i need it
38:43
but i hold it loosely
38:45
because upon my baptism i became the
38:48
citizen
38:49
of another kingdom and all of my
38:52
allegiance
38:53
is pledged to christ and i just don't
38:56
have any other allegiance left over i
38:57
will be
38:59
a responsible citizen that i think will
39:02
contribute to the well-being of my
39:03
community but
39:04
i won't stand and put my you know this
39:06
liturgical gesture
39:08
and pledge allegiance to the united
39:09
states i don't i don't stand and sing
39:11
the
39:11
national anthem sometimes if i'm at a
39:13
football game i will stand i don't sing
39:15
it
39:15
by you say why do you stand i just don't
39:17
want to get beat up you know call me
39:19
but i just don't want to uh
39:23
yep yeah you're you're in you're in good
39:26
company
39:27
usually what i do is when it's about
39:29
time for the national anthem i feel led
39:30
to
39:31
go get a hot dog or go to the men's room
39:33
or something like that so i'm just out
39:34
of the stadium
39:35
perfect yep i don't know how things are
39:37
in st joseph missouri i'm assuming
39:38
they're pretty pretty similar to
39:39
milwaukee wisconsin
39:41
and i would say that i've been a pastor
39:43
for about 15 years so
39:45
not even half as long as you have but
39:47
long enough to say
39:48
that i think i've seen and witnessed
39:50
before my eyes
39:52
the biggest corrupting influence in the
39:54
church
39:55
that is politics where i've watched
39:58
people who are well intentioned
40:00
and wonderful people really basically
40:03
conflate their politics and political
40:05
ideology with their theology
40:07
and they've actually given over kingdom
40:10
issues
40:11
to politics and they let whichever
40:14
side they see themselves on that's how
40:16
they engage and think that god thinks
40:18
about this or the scriptures think about
40:20
it and they
40:21
i could go on and on i'm assuming you
40:23
see that in saint joseph said
40:25
in and have seen that happening around
40:28
the church in america as well
40:29
of course and this is something that
40:31
i've been talking about and writing
40:33
about
40:34
for uh well probably 16 years now
40:38
and i think i think i'm situated as well
40:40
as anyone
40:42
to understand what has happened or at
40:44
least to to
40:45
be a witness to it and i'm still
40:47
astounded
40:48
i just i'm absolutely astounded
40:53
the degree to which so many christian
40:56
leaders in america have in my estimation
40:59
sold their soul for proximity to power
41:03
and it just goes to prove to you how
41:05
intoxicating
41:07
power can be it is the one ring to rule
41:10
them all
41:11
wow i mean uh
41:14
so if you think about lord of the rings
41:17
it's the ring of power and
41:21
no one can seem to bear that
41:24
ring without being corrupted by it even
41:27
a
41:28
you know even such a humble little
41:32
hobbit as frodo in the final moment
41:35
can't let go of it and fate has to
41:37
intervene
41:38
so i i just think
41:41
if if we're going to follow jesus and be
41:45
witnesses for this
41:46
other kingdom that is the kingdom of
41:48
christ we have to know
41:50
ourselves well enough to say i can't get
41:52
very close
41:54
to that ring of power or i will be
41:57
enchanted by it i'll be intoxicated by
41:59
it i'll
42:00
the the eye of sarin will fall upon me
42:02
and who knows what i'll do
42:04
and so that's why for a year i mean i've
42:06
just i've never accepted an invitation
42:08
to washington prayer breakfast other
42:11
things i've been invited i've just
42:12
always said no
42:14
for if i think i've just had enough
42:16
grace to know
42:17
i will not trust myself to get
42:20
that close to that much power
42:23
and not have it mesmerize me
42:26
so would you say then that it might be a
42:28
bad idea for christians to go into
42:31
the political world or would you
42:33
disagree with that
42:39
i i don't think there's a one-time
42:42
answer
42:43
because you know what is what would we
42:45
mean by the political world
42:47
can you know can can a christian be the
42:51
county assessor
42:52
yeah i would think so i mean so there's
42:54
lev i mean we could we can vote
42:56
we can run for office we can hold office
42:59
as long as it
43:00
doesn't compromise our allegiance to
43:03
jesus christ but i think we have to
43:05
enter that process with our eyes wide
43:06
open
43:08
that the higher we move in the ranks of
43:11
power
43:12
the more difficult it is going to be for
43:15
us
43:15
to maintain complete fidelity to christ
43:19
i think in a healthier democracy
43:22
at a different time i probably wouldn't
43:25
be
43:26
too concerned about christians entering
43:28
the political process as far as office
43:30
holders
43:31
currently it seems so toxic so
43:34
partisan driven that i that
43:37
i would i would want to at least raise a
43:40
cautionary flag
43:42
but but but i don't i'm not going to
43:43
make us a clear
43:45
i'm not a christian anarchist and i i
43:48
don't listen i don't want to present a
43:49
situation
43:50
where no christian can participate in
43:53
public life
43:54
i don't think i want you know the united
43:56
states to be the place where
43:57
no christian's a school teacher or
43:59
serves in you know city government or
44:01
anything
44:02
that's not where i'm coming from but i
44:04
think we have to i think we just have to
44:06
recognize
44:08
that once you get mesmerized by power
44:10
there's never enough
44:12
of it and you will
44:15
incrementally inch by inch travel
44:18
who knows it seems like a thousand miles
44:21
in betrayal of your fidelity to christ
44:23
to maintain
44:24
some sort of nearness to power
44:27
so we recently did an episode on
44:30
patriotism nationalism that sort of
44:32
thing
44:33
and we had a small disagreement between
44:34
us about whether whether there is such a
44:36
thing as the virtue of
44:38
patriotism i come down on the side of
44:40
thinking there's probably no such thing
44:43
randy came down on the side of thinking
44:44
that there is a healthy kind of
44:46
patriotism i wonder where you stand on
44:48
that
44:49
if by patriotism we simply mean pride of
44:52
place
44:53
that sort of impels us towards
44:56
responsible citizenship and
44:57
neighborliness
44:58
i think that's good you know if i'm in
45:02
portugal which is a country i've
45:04
traveled to
45:04
and in a lot if i'm in portugal and see
45:07
in a church a portuguese flag
45:11
i don't particularly like it but i'm not
45:13
particularly alarmed by it either
45:17
because you know a portugal hasn't been
45:19
an
45:20
empire for you know what 400 years or
45:22
something
45:23
and uh but when i see a a
45:26
an american flag in a church or a
45:29
russian flag
45:30
when i'm in russia those make me very
45:33
nervous
45:34
because i here's where i make the
45:36
distinction i mean we're talking about
45:37
patriotism nationalism how about a
45:39
distinction between
45:41
just a nation and an empire
45:44
uh empire because i need to define terms
45:47
i mean something quite specific
45:49
empires are not just nations god seems
45:52
to love
45:53
nations with their ethnicity culture
45:55
language diversity all of that
45:57
it doesn't seem to me that god wants the
45:59
globe the world to be
46:02
one giant american mall you know
46:06
the idea that it would be diverse in
46:08
language culture ethnicity all of that
46:10
seems healthy and good i celebrate it
46:13
but
46:14
that's not empires empires are rich
46:16
powerful nations
46:18
who believe they have a divine right to
46:20
rule other nations
46:21
and a manifest destiny to shape history
46:24
according to their agenda when a nation
46:27
aspires to that kind of status
46:30
they begin to impinge upon the
46:31
sovereignty of god who's made that very
46:33
promise
46:34
to his beloved son so who has a divine
46:37
right to rule nations and a manifest
46:39
destiny to shape history it's jesus
46:41
christ
46:41
not the united states of america or any
46:43
other nation
46:45
that seeks to become an empire come on
46:47
so
46:48
you know americans are fond of we're
46:50
number one we're number one well there's
46:52
a lot of pressure there
46:53
and you you always have to seek to
46:56
maintain that position in portugal
46:58
they're like we're number where are we
47:00
38
47:01
39 i don't know uh and and then
47:04
things are much more uh
47:08
calm relaxed and so if if
47:11
if the portuguese brethren can sing the
47:14
portuguese national anthem with a sense
47:16
of pride i say god bless them
47:18
but in empires you better be careful
47:22
that's good when you were talking about
47:23
revelation it made me
47:25
think of nietzsche because he lives in
47:26
my brain like i said um so
47:28
so nietzsche one time apparently quipped
47:29
and i only know this because randy
47:31
preached a sermon on revelation where he
47:33
quoted nietzsche and i was like what
47:34
uh but apparently he accused or he
47:37
called it the most vengeful book
47:39
ever written or something like that
47:40
that's a like a a really yeah
47:44
but like all of the dispensationalists
47:47
that i grew up learning christianity
47:48
from also read it that way
47:50
and to find out that it was also
47:52
nietzsche's view would shock them right
47:53
so what do you say to someone who sees
47:55
in it
47:56
a lot of vengeance jesus comes back with
47:58
a sword and he murders everybody and he
48:00
fills the valley with blood and
48:02
you know you know somebody who is
48:03
politically weak is writing this in the
48:06
midst of empire why not read it that way
48:08
well first of all and this is i mean
48:10
this may sound simple
48:13
but it bears repeating again and again
48:15
and again
48:16
everything in the book of revelation
48:20
is symbol all of it i mean whether we're
48:22
talking about
48:24
the beast up out of the sea with seven
48:26
heads and ten horns
48:28
whether we're talking about the
48:29
bejeweled city
48:31
whether we're talking about a river of
48:33
blood whether we're talking about
48:34
locusts with the face of a man a hair of
48:37
a woman and i forgot all the details of
48:39
the locust
48:40
all of it's all of its symbol you can't
48:43
say
48:44
well i've i've i'll do it someday
48:47
someday i'm going to go through the book
48:48
of revelation and write every single
48:50
image down
48:52
it'll be it it'd be like writing the
48:54
whole book of revelation again but
48:56
and then but there's going to be a
48:57
little box after each one
48:59
symbol literally and then you have to
49:02
check what you think it is
49:04
and then at the very end it's going to
49:05
say explain your system
49:08
so so people say okay is jesus
49:11
actually a lamb literally a lamb
49:15
with seven eyes and seven horns no i
49:18
think that's the symbol
49:19
but is jesus gonna come back on a flying
49:21
white horse
49:23
with a sword in his mouth and kill 200
49:25
million people ah
49:27
i think so really
49:31
so so this is this is a portrayal of
49:34
jesus christ
49:36
ultimately overcoming but he always does
49:39
it as the lamb
49:40
he goes into that battle in revelation
49:42
19 with his robe drenched in blood
49:44
before the battle
49:46
because he's the one that has shed his
49:47
blood and i think of it this way
49:50
i'm one of those 200 million that was
49:52
you know the idea of the population of
49:54
the world at the time
49:55
i am one of those that have been slain
49:58
by the word that proceeds from the mouth
50:00
of christ and then
50:01
raised to the newness of life there we
50:03
go keep it in the realm
50:06
of the apocalyptic of metaphor
50:09
of symbol and maybe just
50:13
end with the idea that yeah okay there's
50:16
a lake of fire out there but what did
50:18
the
50:18
spirit and the bride say from the city
50:21
they say
50:22
if anyone is thirsty is anybody thirsty
50:25
they're like we're in a lake of fire
50:28
well then come
50:29
into the city uh you know into the
50:32
you you have 12 gates you can you can
50:34
enter the city from any direction
50:36
and the gates are never shut the gates
50:38
are there not to keep people out but to
50:40
funnel people into the way of the lamb
50:44
i don't find it actually that difficult
50:48
to not literalize revelation and and
50:51
think that
50:52
that that at some point in the future
50:54
jesus is going to disavow the sermon on
50:55
the mountain come back and just start
50:57
killing hundreds of millions of people
50:59
i i don't think that's going to happen
51:00
and i think i think you just have to
51:02
understand
51:03
how creative john the revelator
51:06
obviously was and this is not entirely
51:09
unique it's a unique
51:11
it's unique i want to say it's unique to
51:12
scripture it's not really
51:14
i mean it's it's magnified it's
51:16
amplified
51:17
but virtually everything in the book of
51:20
revelation is
51:21
borrowed from the old testament i mean
51:24
it's all there he's kind of gathered all
51:27
of these
51:27
images and metaphors together and put
51:30
them in one book but then
51:31
amped them up sort of exaggerated them
51:34
because john the revelator sees that the
51:37
the the triumph of christ
51:38
is in fact enormous and
51:42
that yes there is now tremendous
51:44
vengeance
51:46
falling upon that which has truly
51:48
brought humanity to suffering that is
51:50
upon the satan and empire and spiritual
51:54
wickedness and all of that
51:55
and so he's going to depict it in terms
51:57
of warfare but i don't think there's a
51:59
need to literalize it
52:01
yep i mean when when we think
52:04
of revelation we think of judgment when
52:07
we go to
52:08
the the angry spiteful vengeful kind of
52:11
judgment when we think of it when really
52:13
judgment in the book of revelation that
52:15
part of the book of revelation
52:17
is all about god setting the world to
52:19
rights right and
52:21
for once and for all overcoming and
52:23
cutting the head off of
52:25
evil and overcoming it by the his own
52:28
blood
52:29
and we had we had brad your second
52:31
william paul young on a
52:32
couple weeks ago and brad would say
52:36
the judgment of god is actually the
52:38
fiery furnace of the love of god that is
52:41
dead set
52:41
on burning anything that is set against
52:45
love which is god he's going to burn
52:47
that away
52:48
and that's the judgment of god so that
52:49
we can stand before the god who is love
52:51
face to face
52:52
i had somebody trying to insult me not
52:55
long ago
52:56
because they were alarmed at my theology
52:59
and they said
53:00
you're going to hell and i said probably
53:02
for a little while
53:06
meaning that we must all appear before
53:08
the judgment seat of christ yes
53:10
we all must pass through the fires of
53:13
judgment
53:14
there's going to be some things that are
53:15
going to be burned in my life but i
53:17
still believe that in the end i'll be
53:18
safe
53:19
i mean that's you know what's that's
53:20
that's first corinthians is it five
53:22
what chapter is that any four maybe four
53:25
similarly talking about war now brian um
53:28
you've done extensive work in extensive
53:30
writing farewell to mars
53:31
you're one of your main books i would
53:33
say probably
53:34
you speak to your journey out of a
53:37
militaristic and even kind of
53:39
i'll bet you would say warmongering kind
53:40
of christian christianity
53:42
um and into a more
53:45
christ-like new testament peace-filled
53:48
faith so can you tell us
53:50
a little bit about that journey yeah
53:51
it's interesting when i first
53:53
encountered jesus and let's say by the
53:56
time i was 17
53:58
i knew that waging war was incompatible
54:02
with the sermon on the mount
54:04
i just knew that i mean
54:07
right i got a bible i read it and i saw
54:09
that and so as a teenager and then maybe
54:11
into my early 20s
54:14
i just i just knew you that waging war
54:16
was incompatible with following jesus i
54:18
just knew that
54:19
then i got taught and
54:23
i became more and more comfortable
54:26
with violence which i had not
54:30
been from the moment i'd met jesus but
54:33
then things got americanized in my
54:35
it didn't happen all at once it happened
54:36
over a period of time
54:38
and of course the myth of redemptive
54:41
violence is so
54:42
seductive in america you know and it's
54:46
it's summed up in the icon
54:48
of the american mythical cowboy
54:51
with his trusty six shooter who sets all
54:54
wrongs to write by
54:56
killing the bad guys and i
55:00
eventually was seduced into that
55:03
when 9 11 happened that evening
55:07
i was part of organizing a a prayer
55:11
gathering
55:11
at the local university which thousands
55:14
of people came
55:16
and that night i don't i don't have a
55:18
record of what i prayed i hope it
55:20
doesn't exist
55:21
but but i know what i prayed more or
55:23
less and it was a war prayer
55:25
i knew that the only way america could
55:27
frame what had happened
55:29
was in terms of war and that our
55:30
response would be war
55:32
and so i prayed a prayer blessing the
55:35
american
55:36
war effort that that i was certain was
55:38
inevitable
55:39
and and then things began to change
55:43
and i had a a mystical experience to be
55:46
honest with you
55:48
when i was sitting with jesus in prayer
55:50
it's a contemplative practice that i
55:51
have
55:52
and it was as if my affection for war
55:57
was
55:57
played back in my mind as an
56:00
incriminating
56:01
surveillance video and
56:04
jesus said to me that's your worst sin
56:07
and it just crushed me and i wept and i
56:09
repented deeply and then
56:12
embarked upon a thorough rethinking
56:16
of all things pertaining to war and out
56:18
of that came i got a stack of my books
56:20
here
56:20
out of that came my um
56:24
the book of farewell to mars which at
56:25
the time i think what's the i think this
56:27
is like a
56:28
2014 copyright yeah 2014 so as i
56:32
probably wrote in 2013.
56:33
at the time before writing this i
56:36
thought
56:37
i said i'm going to write a book that
56:39
really makes the case
56:42
that you can't wage war and follow jesus
56:44
at the same time you got to choose
56:46
but i thought i'll wait till i'm older
56:48
until i had less to lose
56:51
and then my grandchildren were born uh i
56:54
have
56:55
seven and soon to be eight grandchildren
56:57
but at the time i had three so it's
56:59
dedicated
57:00
for jude mercy and finn
57:03
i want to read the uh what i call it the
57:05
prelude
57:06
i i introduced the book by
57:10
writing a little inscription to the book
57:12
itself
57:13
it goes like this dear little book i had
57:16
to write you
57:17
you wouldn't let me sleep until you were
57:19
written
57:20
you were rude in your insistence
57:24
i had thought i would wait till i was
57:25
older till i had less to lose before i
57:28
wrote you
57:29
but then jude mercy and finn came along
57:32
and you insisted on being written for
57:34
them
57:35
so i did your bidding now you were
57:37
written
57:38
soon you will be let loose to go where
57:41
you will
57:42
and speak to whom you may try not to
57:45
cause me too much trouble
57:47
at least be kind enough to remind your
57:49
readers that in writing you i only told
57:52
the truth
57:53
i wish you well you're somewhat
57:55
reluctant author
57:56
branson now now that was six or seven
58:00
years ago the book came out
58:02
that book has actually caused me very
58:03
little trouble
58:05
and uh i've had an awful lot of
58:09
very in-depth conversations with career
58:12
military men who appreciate the book
58:15
the the only mindless criticism i get
58:17
from are are from the
58:19
or from people that never really had
58:20
anything to do with military
58:22
but you know they they think that their
58:24
their service is covered with
58:27
you know saying to somebody thank you
58:28
for your service and we'll let you get
58:29
on the airplane first
58:31
i've had probably i don't know probably
58:34
close to 10
58:35
letters and emails and even a few visits
58:37
from career military people who read the
58:39
book and
58:40
resigned their commissions left the
58:41
military because of that
58:44
and uh i so anyway
58:47
if it's okay to say i'm more or less
58:50
proud of that book i stand by that book
58:52
yeah it's highly recommended
58:54
particularly for anyone who's struggling
58:56
with that
58:57
relationship between war and jesus
59:01
i know that many many followers of
59:03
christ are kind of having a reckoning
59:06
when it comes to how can i how do i how
59:09
do i frame that how do i how do i hold
59:10
these two things
59:12
i highly recommend that book can you
59:14
brian then
59:15
tell us about how do you reckon that
59:17
with the old testament and the violence
59:19
in the old testament
59:20
there's a lot to be said about that
59:23
look let's not let's let's be honest
59:26
about it then
59:27
let's not uh let's not just you know
59:29
confine it to david and goliath or you
59:31
know
59:32
israelites versus philistines let's just
59:35
jump into it let's go to like for
59:37
example i think it's first samuel 15
59:40
where the prophet samuel
59:43
instructs king saul to go
59:47
annihilate the amalekites and this is
59:50
the reason why because
59:52
centuries earlier they had refused aid
59:55
to israel as they were arriving in
59:57
canaan
59:58
and the command is to kill
60:02
and there's four categories of people
60:03
men women children and babies
60:06
okay i'm not making this up this is
60:08
there
60:10
because of a crime or a lack of
60:13
hospitality
60:14
provided to israel centuries earlier
60:18
now this particular people group is to
60:21
be annihilated
60:22
men women children and babies okay
60:25
killing men that's what happens in war
60:27
we can discuss
60:28
you know how that compatible that is
60:30
with the way of christ but killing women
60:32
and then children and then we were given
60:34
finally another category of babies
60:36
you know folks that's war crimes you do
60:39
that today and you'll end up in the
60:40
hague
60:41
you know and uh so i asked people this
60:44
question
60:45
would you kill babies if god told you to
60:51
that's just you know and so
60:55
first of all first of all first thing i
60:56
said to that is there's only one correct
60:59
answer
61:00
yes and the answer is no and if you say
61:04
yes we um kyle and i could go off on a
61:07
whole discussion on
61:09
and uh transcending the ethical
61:13
and you know fear and trembling i have
61:16
pro i like kurt good i have whole
61:17
problems with that
61:18
um see
61:22
would you kill babies if god told you to
61:24
uh
61:25
the only answer that is consistent with
61:28
a well-formed conscience
61:29
is no you say even first of all i i
61:33
can't trust myself
61:35
to discern god well enough to risk that
61:38
i'm killing a baby and oops got it wrong
61:41
or i can't i can't violate my own
61:43
conscience i would just finally have to
61:45
stand my ground and say god if you want
61:46
to kill babies you're on your own there
61:47
i'm not doing it for you
61:51
but the problem is the this is the
61:52
question you're really at you're asking
61:54
me a bible question because that story
61:56
is there
61:57
okay you've got three options
62:00
and there's only three and you may not
62:02
like any of them
62:03
so pick your poison one you can
62:07
you can question the morality of god you
62:10
can say
62:10
okay or the morality of it but say it
62:13
that way
62:13
uh that ordinarily to kill babies is
62:15
frowned upon and we consider that
62:17
you know beyond the pale but if god
62:19
commands it
62:21
then it's it's okay well
62:24
you know that opens the door for future
62:27
atrocities
62:28
and it's happened i can't do that others
62:31
maybe can maybe they say well if god
62:33
says
62:33
to do it it's okay i say look god you
62:36
gave me a conscience i can't sin against
62:38
my own conscience
62:39
secondly well then you can question the
62:41
immutability of god
62:43
you can say well once upon a time you
62:45
know god ordered stuff like that but
62:47
over time he's changed god has mutated
62:49
he's not immutable he's mutating
62:51
he's moving beyond a history of violence
62:53
into something other
62:55
others many can do that i can't
62:58
uh i'm a classical theist in that sense
63:00
i hold to the immutability of god if god
63:02
is in the process of change and the very
63:04
ground beneath my feet is moving and
63:06
what do i stand upon
63:08
and so that leaves a third option and
63:09
that's that we question
63:11
what we mean when we talk about the
63:14
inspiration of
63:15
scripture we have to question how we
63:17
read scripture
63:19
i view the old testament first of all
63:20
it's canonical okay
63:22
so it's part of our ongoing conversation
63:25
that forms our theology
63:26
but i understand the old testament as
63:28
the inspired telling of israel's story
63:31
of coming to know the living god
63:33
but along the way assumptions are made
63:37
make no mistake about it the old
63:39
testament
63:40
does not speak in a univocal manner
63:42
about many things
63:44
i mean if you ask the old testament hey
63:46
does god require ritual blood sacrifice
63:49
uh the priest and moses and deuteronomy
63:51
and others say
63:52
yeah and here's how you should do it and
63:54
i can show you the verses in leviticus
63:56
where it says
63:57
that sin offerings are required day by
63:59
day but then you keep moving on
64:01
and you get to psalms and in psalm 40
64:04
the psalmist says
64:05
you know you've opened my ears and sin
64:09
offering and burnt offering you have not
64:11
required
64:13
and then hosea becomes bold enough to
64:15
speak in the name of yahweh
64:16
and say thus saith the lord i desire
64:19
mercy
64:19
and not sacrifice and so
64:23
the bible the old testament especially
64:24
doesn't stand above
64:26
the story it tells but is fully immersed
64:28
in it the bible itself
64:30
is on the journey to discover the true
64:32
word of god so you start with it
64:34
you allow the story to be told you
64:36
journey with it but you don't
64:37
stop until you get to jesus
64:41
the bible's a little bit like a m night
64:44
shyamalan or whatever his name is movie
64:47
that you have to get to the end of it
64:48
before you can look back and and
64:51
properly understand the earlier pores
64:53
it's like watching sixth sense
64:55
you know you watch that movie and you
64:57
get to the end and you go how did i miss
64:59
it
65:00
it was there all along and so um
65:04
i have an orthodox friend that he's a
65:06
priest theologian
65:08
he he he has no problem with simply
65:10
saying well you know samuel god used
65:12
samuel but samuel was also just kind of
65:14
a
65:14
bigoted old curmudgeon that couldn't
65:16
that didn't like amalekites
65:18
and uh operated in his own assumptions
65:21
and
65:22
wanted israel to kill the malachites if
65:24
in fact that's even what happened
65:26
you know part of this is how the story
65:27
is being told so
65:30
i i simply have no problem with
65:33
with seeing the bible as
65:37
on the journey itself
65:40
and this issue that you've raised is a
65:42
particularly
65:44
peculiarly almost exclusively
65:47
protestant problem uh and it's because
65:51
it's the only authority we have that
65:54
when there was the great i mean i know
65:55
there was the earlier schism east and
65:57
west but
65:58
when the great divorce came in the form
66:00
of the reformation which
66:03
we needed reformation the renaissance
66:04
church was hopelessly corrupt
66:07
uh but what instead of getting a full
66:08
reformation we got a divorce
66:10
and you know divorces can be ugly and
66:13
awful and the children suffer
66:16
and in the divorce settlement catholic
66:18
mom
66:20
got about everything protestant dad
66:23
didn't get much
66:24
but he got the bible and so those of us
66:27
that ended up with protestant dad
66:29
god bless him had to make the bible
66:32
everything yes it had
66:33
because we don't have the church we
66:34
don't have the tradition we don't have
66:36
the
66:36
really much of that sort of thing we
66:39
just we've just we've got the bible and
66:41
we're going to hold on to it for dear
66:42
life
66:43
and protestants have done a lot of very
66:46
good
66:47
work in scriptural scholarship but in
66:50
the end
66:52
we have placed more of a burden on the
66:55
bible
66:55
than it can bear and so we invent these
66:59
wild
66:59
ideas of infallibility and inerrancy and
67:02
all of that and apply these modern
67:04
categories
67:05
that make no sense to the text and
67:07
that's when we get ourselves in
67:08
situations where
67:10
if i can't claim absolutely that god
67:13
told
67:15
saul to kill babies then the whole thing
67:17
is a hoax
67:18
and we just don't have to go down that
67:20
road so i think ultimately it's
67:22
how we understand scriptures and
67:25
inspiration
67:26
and authority man can we say cheers to
67:28
that
67:29
brian i'm drinking a really tasty
67:32
buffalo trace but that
67:33
what you're spitting has me tingly warm
67:36
and tangy
67:38
so great so let me get to the question
67:41
that i've been
67:42
really excited to ask you anyone who
67:44
follows you on twitter knows your
67:45
deep and passionate love for bob dylan
67:48
and i've been wondering i i'd like to
67:51
put in a request brian
67:53
but within the next maybe decade you
67:55
need to write a book on the theology of
67:57
bob dylan that's just i think you owe it
67:59
to the world and particularly you owe it
68:01
to
68:02
hipster america but probably yeah
68:05
um and if if anyone can do it you can so
68:08
let me ask you if you if i said it's my
68:10
other canonical text i have two
68:12
canonical textbooks
68:13
you know good the holy scriptures and
68:15
bob dylan
68:16
praise the lord so you're writing a book
68:19
called the
68:19
theology according to bob dylan what
68:21
would some of the chapters be
68:22
what what what would theology according
68:24
to bob dylan
68:26
feel like sound like tastes like well
68:28
let's see one of my books already has a
68:30
chapter entitled shelter from the storm
68:33
which is a you know a bob dylan song
68:37
not dark yet i might have to have that
68:40
there's an album called oh mercy
68:44
dylan lives in a world well
68:47
first of all the thing about his his
68:50
lyrics are so vast
68:52
so sprawling he's created a world
68:55
with with people and characters and
68:57
geography and places
68:59
and it is a world where god is very
69:02
present
69:04
where sin is real and the consequences
69:06
of sin are real but also grace is
69:08
present
69:10
bob dylan had a real encounter
69:13
with jesus christ in 1979 and that sort
69:16
of
69:18
that sort of reinvigorated his judaism
69:21
if you asked dylan today
69:24
if you if first of all he wouldn't
69:25
answer your question but i mean if you
69:27
somehow could make him talk
69:30
you'd say what's your religion he'd say
69:31
i'm i'm jewish but if you followed up do
69:34
you believe that jesus
69:36
is the son of god he is he would say
69:37
yeah
69:39
and he just he's not going to be
69:42
told that he can't do both at the same
69:45
time because he does
69:47
and what i find is what i find
69:48
interesting in fact is that he's jewish
69:51
and that he might be
69:55
a closer picture of what a hebrew
69:58
prophet was like
70:00
than your you know a standard
70:02
evangelical preacher
70:04
in that the hebrew prophets were poets
70:08
and dylan is a poet and the poetic and
70:12
the prophetic
70:13
are sometimes it seems like they're
70:16
related
70:17
and dylan seems to have this very unique
70:20
gift
70:22
to say something without to find a point
70:24
on it
70:26
to leave it open-ended so that it
70:28
doesn't
70:29
you know if you write a protest song
70:31
that is very specific
70:32
about one issue at one particular time
70:35
in one particular nation
70:37
you know it's got a pretty short life
70:38
span dylan seems to be
70:41
like you know whoever who you want to
70:43
pick jeremiah or isaiah whoever
70:46
whose poems are speaking to something
70:50
that was
70:50
real and current at the time but are
70:54
evasive enough and to give enough space
70:58
that they're still speaking to us then
71:00
you know i can pick up jeremiah and just
71:02
flip
71:02
open to it and find you know on any
71:04
given page i can probably find something
71:06
that i'll say that's speaking to me
71:08
right now and dylan seems similar to
71:10
that so and so so in one sense
71:12
you know the rock and roll artist that's
71:14
going to be given the nobel prize
71:16
for his lyrics in one sense he had to be
71:19
jewish
71:20
it just seemed like he had to be in that
71:23
tradition
71:24
i think that's right my my personal
71:26
favorite lyricist is leonard cohen
71:28
also jewish yeah exactly
71:32
and dylan loved him too for that reason
71:34
yeah yeah i'm reminded
71:35
or i'm wondering are there any
71:36
similarities would you say brian between
71:38
dylan
71:38
and heschel even sure i mean one of the
71:41
most influential books i think i've ever
71:42
read is
71:43
is uh heschel's the prophets
71:47
um masterpiece yep yeah again
71:50
and again that would be a book that had
71:52
to be written by a jew
71:54
you know who's gonna who's gonna write
71:55
out the prophets but heschel
71:57
yeah and um yeah
72:01
i had a dream one time where i i met
72:04
father abraham it's a long i won't try
72:08
to tell the whole story
72:11
in the dream he was abraham the
72:12
patriarch but but he had the exact
72:15
appearance
72:16
of abraham joshua heschel and it was an
72:19
interesting dream
72:20
are you working on anything that uh yeah
72:23
i mean
72:24
i'm i'm i'm working i'm gonna finish up
72:27
probably in january
72:29
my 10th book in 12 years so
72:33
i have been writing um
72:36
but i i've submitted to ivp
72:39
as of a few weeks ago a completed
72:41
manuscript entitled what can we do
72:44
when everything's on fire they'll
72:46
probably
72:47
try to change the title and they will
72:49
probably not succeed
72:52
i mean technically the publisher you
72:54
know has the right to give it the title
72:55
but i can be pretty stubborn when i set
72:57
my mind to it
72:58
and uh kyle this book
73:02
more or less opens with a retelling
73:05
of nietzsche's parable of the madman
73:09
i teach that every semester where is god
73:12
and we can't find god remember he's i
73:14
don't have to tell you but you know he's
73:15
got
73:16
he's got the lantern and it's you know
73:18
bright sunny day
73:19
we cannot find god we're looking for god
73:22
and and
73:22
and the villagers think this is
73:24
ludicrous and they're making fun of him
73:26
and mocking him
73:27
and finally he smashes the lantern and
73:29
says oh i see i've come too soon
73:31
and uh but now i'm kind of riffing on
73:34
the idea that
73:35
that the madman's lantern
73:38
was sort of like mrs o'leary's
73:42
lantern that the cow kicks over and now
73:45
we're living
73:46
in a time whenever when all kinds of
73:49
faith
73:50
is imperiled by these flames and so
73:54
this is a book where ultimately i don't
73:57
i never
73:57
well maybe i do say this i probably do
73:59
say this but i'm
74:00
trying to i'm speaking to people that
74:03
are going through
74:04
deconstruction and i want to try to be a
74:06
trusted guide i want to walk them
74:09
through this so you don't have to lose
74:10
everything
74:11
there's a way to make it through and so
74:13
i i i have a chapter entitled
74:16
deconstructing deconstruction and we
74:19
look at daradah a little bit and some
74:20
other things so
74:21
i'm pretty excited about this book um
74:24
the full-on you know
74:25
serious philosophers i don't know they
74:28
make me nervous they'll probably tell me
74:30
17 things that are wrong with what i'm
74:31
doing but that's not really what the
74:34
book about the book is really about
74:35
trying to help christians hold on to
74:37
their faith
74:38
so that that's that will come out
74:40
sometime next year don't have a
74:42
publication date and i'm this is my
74:44
writing desk i'm
74:45
seated at my writing desk right now i'm
74:48
working on a
74:49
an advent devotion the anticipated
74:53
christ
74:54
and you know that'll come out the
74:56
problem is i'm writing
74:57
i'm writing enough that you get into
74:59
conflicts you can't release two books
75:01
too close to each other so
75:03
that's must be a nice problem to have
75:06
so yeah i've got plenty going on where
75:10
can our listen
75:11
listeners find your books your stuff
75:13
well uh
75:14
zond z-a-h-n-d is a great
75:17
filter there's there's pl there's a
75:21
there's a
75:21
fair amount of zones in switzerland but
75:23
there's not many of us here so if you
75:25
just put zond in front of all kinds
75:27
if you just google zone you'll find me
75:29
probably but
75:30
i have a website today now and then do a
75:33
blog post but vlogging is so
75:36
2010-ish you know we hardly do it
75:38
anymore
75:39
i mean i do now then i have in the last
75:41
week or so but
75:42
brianzan.com i'm active on twitter where
75:45
i'm something of a provocateur i think
75:47
i'm actually a
75:48
kinder gentler soul than i appear on
75:50
75:51
i hope i'm trying and instagram facebook
75:56
amazon you can find my books yup that
75:58
sort of thing awesome
76:00
brian zond thank you so much again for
76:02
your time thanks for being with us
76:03
it's been a pleasure well cheers i you
76:05
know i mean i don't trust myself to
76:08
talk for over an hour and a half with a
76:11
with a
76:12
glass of whiskey with a beverage in my
76:13
hand you know but i'm gonna go
76:15
i'm gonna i'm gonna go get one enjoy the
76:18
hard bag or whatever you end up with
76:21
thanks for spending this time with us we
76:23
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76:25
conversations
76:25
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76:28
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76:29
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76:31
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76:32
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76:38
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76:40
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76:43
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76:45
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76:46
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76:47
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76:49
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76:51
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76:57
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76:59
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76:59
walk into a bar