A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

Cheap Whiskey and the Atonement

November 18, 2020 Randy Knie, Kyle Whitaker Season 1 Episode 10
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Cheap Whiskey and the Atonement
Chapters
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Cheap Whiskey and the Atonement
Nov 18, 2020 Season 1 Episode 10
Randy Knie, Kyle Whitaker

How does Jesus's death work? In this episode, Randy, Kyle, and Elliot discuss atonement, the theological issue of how Jesus saves humans. It's a deep dive, and a bit nerdy, but we think it's important.

The whiskey featured in this episode is Bulleit Rye.

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)

Show Notes Transcript

How does Jesus's death work? In this episode, Randy, Kyle, and Elliot discuss atonement, the theological issue of how Jesus saves humans. It's a deep dive, and a bit nerdy, but we think it's important.

The whiskey featured in this episode is Bulleit Rye.

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher)

00:00

[Music]

00:14

welcome to

00:14

a pastor and a philosopher walk into a

00:16

bar the podcast where we mix a sometimes

00:19

weird but always delicious cocktail of

00:21

theology

00:22

philosophy and spirituality

00:28

well welcome everyone on this episode of

00:31

a pastor and a philosopher walking to a

00:33

bar

00:33

we're discussing atonement that is the

00:36

question of how it is that jesus's death

00:39

and resurrection actually saves humans

00:42

how is it that that's the thing that

00:44

fixes the problem that we have with god

00:46

and randy and i have thought about this

00:48

both of us independently for quite a

00:49

while

00:50

and probably have some different views

00:52

on it so i look forward to maybe hashing

00:54

some of that out

00:55

and there's a possibility that we might

00:57

just deflate somebody's faith

00:59

and in this episode we're not aiming to

01:00

do that but it very well may happen

01:03

so hang on uh

01:06

and you know what better to have next to

01:09

you when you're deflating faith

01:10

than a good drama whiskey so

01:14

kind of a must it is we're doing things

01:16

a little bit differently in this episode

01:19

uh our producer my night tonight

01:21

producer bartender

01:23

i like it our producer has uh selected

01:26

for us

01:27

something that we don't know what it is

01:29

so ellie yeah this is a blind tasting

01:32

so there's no bottle in sight yeah all

01:34

you have is a unmarked glass with

01:36

some goldish colored liquid in it and

01:39

yeah i thought it'd be fun if you could

01:41

tell me if if not exactly what you're

01:43

tasting

01:44

uh give me some notes that uh make me

01:47

think you know what you're talking about

01:49

i love i love blind taste tests we've

01:51

done

01:52

blind blind cheap beer taste tests

01:55

which you'd be interested it'd be it's

01:57

interesting what comes out

01:58

you know close to the top hams hams is

02:01

pretty good by the way

02:02

um done many whiskey plantain cysts this

02:06

is fun here we go

02:07

yeah and i'm usually in fact every time

02:09

we do it i'm surprised at what my

02:10

favorite thing is so

02:12

i really like the nose it's uh not very

02:15

oaky actually it's kind of sweet got a

02:17

honey

02:18

but yet not like new makey it doesn't

02:20

have that vibe to it it's

02:22

very so my first question is

02:25

did i get this off the top shelf or the

02:27

bottom shelf like did i go

02:28

find the 10 bottle from the nose i'm

02:31

saying

02:32

definitely middle shelf not bottom i

02:34

would say

02:35

the bottom half of the middle

02:38

all right have you tasted it yes

02:42

it's very sweet it tastes a little young

02:44

okay

02:46

yeah now that we're yep all the

02:48

complexity is in the nose

02:50

and then none of it on the palate it's a

02:52

little hot yeah but not so much that i

02:54

think it's

02:54

you know cask strength against again

02:57

that that sweetness doesn't translate to

02:59

tasting new makey because that's my

03:00

least favorite

03:01

flavor in a whiskey but it's just not

03:04

very complex

03:05

it tastes young in that it it doesn't

03:08

taste oaked

03:08

very well yeah like not much barrel

03:10

presents have you ever had

03:12

uh just uncut uh just moonshine just

03:15

uncut like corn whiskey yes yes

03:18

this has that it's very a very strong

03:21

young

03:22

sweet corn flavor that kind of dominates

03:25

but yet it's not

03:26

bad any guesses

03:31

how how household of his innate of like

03:34

so

03:34

i i'm actually a little disappointed

03:35

because i really like the

03:37

the bourbon from this brand this is not

03:41

that

03:42

um oh so this isn't bourbon no oh

03:44

interesting

03:45

interesting is it a it's not a rye it's

03:48

a rye

03:48

this is a rye okay that explains that

03:50

you've got the heat yes

03:52

okay yep i'll go with bullet

03:56

that's a good that's a good guess

03:57

actually that is a good guess yeah

04:00

that's the correctness

04:03

this is bullet 95 rye so so yeah

04:06

i love uh bullet uh the bourbon but

04:10

i hadn't tried this i know i like rye's

04:13

hadn't tried this before

04:14

and um this is so funny so couple things

04:17

one

04:18

now that it's awry i'm able to like

04:21

appreciate it a little bit more because

04:23

when you're thinking that it's bourbon

04:24

it's not that

04:25

impressive really absolutely and b this

04:28

is the crappiest beer i've ever had

04:29

right right and b when you guys tasted

04:32

before me and kyle you particularly

04:34

started saying that you didn't like it

04:35

it's about near the bottom of the

04:37

you know middle shelf that immediately

04:40

took my mind to

04:41

oh it's not that good and then i heard

04:43

it's bullet ride and then i was like

04:44

actually i like it more than i think it

04:46

did

04:46

yeah you know what i mean i mean again

04:48

if you would have told me this is rye i

04:49

would have

04:50

i think i would have approached it

04:51

differently but i would say yeah

04:53

this is this is clearly the lower end of

04:55

what we've had so far yeah

04:57

for sure but i still enjoy it and

04:59

there's room for it there's room for all

05:01

all whiskeys yeah well not really not

05:04

really

05:04

i take that back i retract that

05:06

statement only so

05:07

only so much sin can be covered exactly

05:10

exactly

05:12

that's your segway yeah yeah jesus death

05:14

did not atone for old crow

05:16

[Laughter]

05:17

[Music]

05:19

well now that we're fully hydrated how

05:20

about we uh talk about the atonement a

05:22

little bit huh

05:23

sounds good so why don't you set this up

05:26

for us randy what uh

05:28

what is it we're going to be talking

05:29

about why is it important

05:31

why is it an episode on our podcast yeah

05:34

the atonement is one of many christian

05:36

doctrines and

05:38

i know it's you know trendy to

05:42

say doctrine is lame but doctrine is

05:45

really really important

05:46

um if we're christians or maybe you're

05:48

on the outside looking in maybe you're

05:50

an atheist and

05:52

i would still say doctrine is very

05:54

important what we believe about god what

05:57

we believe about the world what we

05:58

believe about humanity what we believe

06:00

about all sorts of things

06:02

matter it influences the way we see god

06:04

it influences the way we see one another

06:06

it influences the way we

06:09

act with one another and act in the

06:10

world and in

06:12

and engage with humanity in the world

06:14

around us so i would say doctrine

06:16

matters an awful lot and

06:18

what i've noticed and observed is

06:21

people will say they're a certain

06:22

doctrine or not a certain doctrine

06:25

they'll say that but the way they talk

06:28

the way they

06:28

act is one thing but the way they talk

06:31

that totally doesn't make sense actually

06:33

i don't know if you've i'm sure you've

06:34

had this kyle because we both are

06:36

we're at one time very passionate about

06:38

being non-calvinistic and i still

06:39

am quite passionate about it right yeah

06:41

i mean i used to care more than i do now

06:43

but i'm still

06:44

exactly so yeah love all you reformed

06:47

guys and gals out there but um

06:49

mostly guys let's be honest

06:51

[Laughter]

06:53

don't write us yeah yeah um

06:57

many people will say this for instance

06:58

they'll say no i'm not a calvinist at

07:00

all i don't believe

07:01

in in predestination i'm like okay

07:03

that's great and then you'll be in

07:04

conversation with them and all of a

07:06

sudden they'll say

07:07

oh yeah this happened to us the other

07:08

day it was really it really sucked but

07:11

you know god has a purpose in everything

07:13

yeah and i'll just stop and be like did

07:16

you hear yourself

07:18

because you told me a couple weeks ago

07:20

that you're not a calvinist and that you

07:21

don't

07:21

believe in predestination but now you

07:23

just told me that you did and you didn't

07:25

even know it

07:25

right there's millions of times like

07:27

that i think the atonement is one of

07:29

those

07:30

one of those things where if we're not

07:32

cautious about what we think about it

07:34

in what we believe about it it's

07:35

actually going to

07:37

to season and spice the way we think

07:40

about god and how we look at god and how

07:42

we look at

07:42

that there's all sorts of wrong

07:44

approaches to god because of

07:46

our belief in what we think about the

07:49

atonement so even if we've never thought

07:50

about the atonement right it's one of

07:52

those lenses that you don't realize

07:54

you're looking through until you look

07:55

through a different one

07:56

and think oh wow my whole view of god

07:59

and religion was kind of

08:00

colored by that one position that i'd

08:02

never really even considered

08:04

exactly exactly so because it's so

08:07

important we're excited to talk about it

08:09

and

08:10

in be in conversation with you listeners

08:12

and

08:13

really love to hear from you about what

08:15

your thoughts about the atonement have

08:16

been and how that's been constructive or

08:18

destructive in your faith journey

08:20

we'd love to hear from you about um how

08:22

maybe this

08:23

maybe this is old news or maybe this is

08:25

really the first time you've really

08:26

considered this so let's talk kyle can

08:29

you

08:30

give us an example of how to think about

08:32

what the atonement is what do we mean

08:34

when we say the word

08:35

atonement yeah good in regard not not in

08:38

british you know literature but in

08:41

theology yeah well so the word

08:45

this is it's kind of an interesting word

08:47

um it

08:49

you might have heard it set up like you

08:52

separate

08:52

out the parts of the word and you have

08:54

at and then one

08:56

and then mint exactly the explanation is

08:59

uh it's it's the explanation of how

09:02

humans

09:02

and god are at one with each other

09:06

and it sounds like something a sunday

09:08

school teacher made up when you put it

09:09

there probably did

09:10

probably did but well no that's the

09:11

interesting thing about it i mean it's a

09:13

translation of an old latin word

09:15

but they chose this english word

09:17

precisely for that reason that literally

09:19

is what it means yeah it's not like

09:22

cobble you know it's just

09:23

that's just what it is originally that's

09:25

what the word means

09:26

interesting so this is a very vivid kind

09:29

of visual word

09:30

automatically so maybe a fun way to

09:33

think about this

09:33

would be let's imagine the conversation

09:36

that might happen

09:37

if a pastor and a philosopher actually

09:40

did

09:40

walk into a bar together hey yo and

09:43

start and start thinking about

09:46

god and theology because this might be

09:47

one of the very first things

09:49

that comes up right so you're a pastor

09:52

right let's say we went into a bar

09:54

and let's say i was the typical

09:55

philosopher which means i'm skeptical of

09:57

everything

09:59

and you know i find out you're a pastor

10:01

and i say well

10:02

tell me about that whole jesus thing

10:04

what's that about

10:06

what kind of answer might you give well

10:08

i'll i'll be a stereotypical

10:10

evangelical pastor and say well i mean

10:14

you know jesus means everything to me

10:16

jesus is salvation

10:18

and you would probably ask if i said

10:20

jesus means salvation

10:21

i'd say what is that what does that mean

10:24

yeah and i would say well

10:26

humanity has a sin problem we in the in

10:28

the beginning

10:30

sinned and mistrusted god and when we

10:33

did that

10:34

we broke something we broke a

10:35

relationship with god and therefore we

10:37

can't be with god anymore

10:38

sin is a barrier from being with god and

10:42

that's a that's a problem that humanity

10:44

is incapable of fixing ourselves we are

10:46

powerless against

10:48

the power sin and the death and the

10:49

isolation in the punishment

10:52

that is justly coming to us because of

10:54

our sin

10:55

however jesus is such a big deal to me

10:58

because

10:58

jesus saved me god sent his son into the

11:01

world

11:02

to to die to die on a cross and when he

11:05

died on that cross

11:06

he actually gave us salvation there's

11:09

imagine this

11:09

imagine there's there's two cliffs

11:11

you're standing in the grand

11:12

canyon i'm on one side god's in the

11:15

other the reason that we're on two

11:16

different sides is because of our sin

11:17

we've been separated from god and we

11:19

can't get across

11:21

jesus comes and he dies on the cross and

11:23

it's as if that cross

11:25

is a bridge over the grand canyon and

11:27

now we can go and be with god because

11:29

jesus

11:29

died for us in our place that's

11:32

why i believe in jesus i bet you got an

11:36

a

11:36

in your homiletics class that was really

11:38

good

11:40

well done pastor thank you thank you

11:42

thank you so at this point the

11:43

philosopher would say something like the

11:45

following

11:46

uh okay well explain to me in a little

11:48

more detail it's a nice story

11:49

that you know with the chasm and the

11:51

cross across the world thank you thanks

11:53

very you know vivid metaphor but why was

11:56

that

11:57

necessary to begin with why why is it

12:00

that we need the cross in order to fix

12:03

this sin problem or for that matter why

12:06

is there a sin

12:07

problem if god set up the world

12:09

intending to love humans and everything

12:11

why did he set it up in such a way that

12:13

there would be this problem that would

12:14

then need to be solved

12:16

by this cross across the chasm thing and

12:18

how does that cross work anyhow

12:21

so you know for example if if i did a

12:23

wrong thing

12:25

and jesus is stepping in to take

12:28

the consequences of the wrong thing that

12:30

i did and god is

12:32

you know pleased by that well that seems

12:34

unfair

12:35

doesn't it i mean that's not how we do

12:38

things in in our normal life if

12:40

if i got in trouble for a crime that i

12:42

committed

12:43

and some really kind person came in and

12:45

said hey judge i'm going to take the

12:47

punishment for that crime so that person

12:49

doesn't have to

12:50

if the judge said yeah that seems fair

12:53

we would impeach that judge that's not

12:56

fair that's not how that works so

13:00

tell me a story that explains precisely

13:02

how it is that the cross fixes all these

13:04

problems

13:05

in a fair and logical way

13:09

and instantly aya's said pastor would

13:12

get very insecure very defensive

13:15

and offended mostly by the fact that you

13:18

don't just take it as a given

13:19

that it makes perfect sense yeah so

13:23

that whole conversation and just this

13:26

this question of

13:27

how do we get salvation from the cross

13:31

most christians would say from the cross

13:32

i would say from the life death and

13:34

resurrection of jesus

13:35

um how does that work what happened

13:37

what's what

13:38

what needed to happen and what happened

13:40

in order to affect salvation and life

13:42

for humanity right yeah that's what

13:44

we're talking about when we talk about

13:45

the atonement

13:47

yeah there have been a plethora of

13:49

theories of

13:50

on atonement throughout church history

13:53

and

13:53

there are several main ones that i think

13:55

we should mention so let's just do a

13:57

quick overview of the main theories of

13:59

atonement kyle

14:01

so the moral influence theory basically

14:04

says that jesus dies to save humanity

14:06

show us how to live and show us what god

14:08

is like christus victor was probably the

14:11

widest held theory of atonement for the

14:13

first

14:14

thousand years of the church and that

14:15

just basically says that jesus died and

14:17

rose again

14:18

to defeat the powers of sin death and

14:20

satan then there's the

14:21

ransom theory this is the idea that god

14:25

and satan are in a kind of economic

14:27

relationship

14:28

and that god somehow owes satan a ransom

14:32

for the ownership of humans satisfaction

14:34

theory then comes along in about the

14:36

11th century and says that

14:37

the problem isn't with satan the problem

14:39

isn't with sin and death the problem was

14:41

with

14:41

our position with god satisfaction

14:43

theory says that god's justice must be

14:45

satisfied

14:46

in order for us to have life god is just

14:48

and so therefore he would be unjust to

14:50

let us sin

14:52

and come into his eternal glory so god's

14:55

justice must be satisfied jesus death

14:57

is the satisfaction of god's justice and

15:00

then a later development

15:02

of the satisfaction theory is a very

15:04

influential one

15:05

these days and in the modern period and

15:07

that is penal substitution

15:09

theory so it's very similar to

15:12

satisfaction

15:13

or sometimes also called substitution

15:14

theory but it adds to it

15:17

this idea of this metaphor of kind of a

15:20

courtroom

15:20

situation so that god is a judge and

15:23

he's a just

15:24

judge and we are kind of defendants

15:27

trying to defend ourselves for our sin

15:29

and something about our sin triggers

15:32

god's wrath

15:33

god's wrath must be poured out on sin

15:35

and therefore it must be poured out on

15:37

us and because we are guilty and we

15:40

cannot pay the punishment for our guilt

15:42

ourselves we can't pay that price god

15:44

sends jesus to do it for us and so

15:46

god's punishment is poured out his wrath

15:48

is poured out on jesus

15:50

instead of us the scapegoat theory is

15:52

probably the main non-violent

15:54

theory of atonement that just says jesus

15:55

is not a sacrifice

15:57

but rather a victim of the violence of

15:59

humanity and of sin

16:01

and when he actually willingly

16:04

participates

16:05

and becomes that victim he actually

16:07

overcomes the whole system

16:08

and we get to enjoy life because

16:12

jesus was our scapegoat it has

16:15

hints back to the old testament but

16:16

really is this non-violent theory of

16:18

atonement that a lot of philosophers

16:20

like you kyle

16:21

tend to prefer so let's dig into

16:25

to some of these theories then the maybe

16:27

most liberal one

16:28

if i can use that word the one that's

16:31

probably going to make our conservative

16:32

listeners the most uncomfortable

16:34

would be the moral influence theory

16:36

absolutely now sometimes this is also

16:38

called subjective because the focus is

16:40

on humans

16:41

so there was a guy a 20th century

16:44

theologian who was pretty

16:45

influential on the atonement question

16:48

and he divided up all of the various

16:49

theories of atonement into three

16:51

categories he called them subjective

16:53

objective

16:54

and then classical subjective because

16:56

they focus on human beings the whole

16:58

thing is about how things appear

17:00

from our perspective and that's

17:02

definitely what the moral influence

17:03

theory

17:04

focuses on the whole point of jesus

17:06

coming and dying

17:08

and being resurrected all of it was to

17:10

teach us to be good people

17:12

to give us an example maybe or even to

17:14

influence us in a more material way

17:16

to become the best kind of human that we

17:18

can be yep

17:20

and good evangelicals would say why did

17:23

jesus

17:23

even have to die if it was just to show

17:25

us how to live and be good people that's

17:27

ridiculous why would jesus have sweat

17:29

bullets in the garden

17:30

of gethsemane just to show us a cool way

17:33

of living

17:35

that's not necessary and that doesn't

17:36

sound biblical yeah

17:38

and even worse than that if you're a

17:39

kind of traditionalist conservative

17:41

christian nothing after the death of

17:43

jesus is actually necessary

17:45

for this view jesus might not have been

17:47

resurrected and he still could have been

17:49

just as good of a moral influence as if

17:51

he was

17:51

as a matter of fact god god doesn't even

17:53

need to exist on this view

17:55

all we really need is a story about

17:58

jesus

17:59

being a moral example of story it could

18:01

have just been a nice philosophical tale

18:04

yeah and while i don't hold to the moral

18:05

influence theory i really think there's

18:08

beautiful truth in it where part of the

18:11

cross see the cross for me and the

18:13

well the whole of it the incarnation the

18:15

cross and the resurrection

18:16

it's like a diamond right there's

18:18

there's an endless amount of facets to

18:20

it

18:20

that you can learn from that you can be

18:22

inspired by that you can fall in love

18:24

with

18:24

and that's completely true with the

18:26

moral influence a huge part of the cross

18:28

is showing us what god is like that that

18:31

right there in and of itself

18:32

is bomb dropping material god actually

18:36

hangs on a cross is executed by the

18:39

empire

18:40

god in our world sits in the electric

18:43

chair

18:44

and lets the man flip the switch

18:47

that is cataclysmic earthquake

18:50

level stuff for me and one thing we're

18:52

going to see as we go through these

18:53

theories is that there's something

18:55

beautiful and good and right about all

18:56

of them

18:57

there's definitely something biblical

18:58

about all of them but they also all have

19:00

a kernel of truth

19:01

it's just how they've been received

19:03

historically the kinds of metaphors that

19:05

have been used

19:06

to promote each one correct this

19:08

particular theory

19:10

is is associated with some people who

19:11

are excommunicated

19:13

who are deemed heretical and so because

19:16

of that it's viewed as pretty liberal

19:18

so then the christus victor theory of

19:20

atonement again

19:22

is seen as one of those what kyle

19:26

just described as classical it was held

19:28

through the church

19:29

for the first 11 centuries really with

19:31

the ransom theory but

19:33

the christus victor theory of atonement

19:35

says that our

19:36

problem is with sin death

19:39

and satan that those three things add up

19:42

to giving us

19:43

eternal death and separation from

19:46

the life that we were created to have

19:48

they actually have power over us that we

19:50

are powerless

19:51

to address only god can do that and so

19:54

jesus in his incarnation comes and lives

19:57

the

19:58

perfect life shows us what that looks

20:00

like who god is but also he lives this

20:02

perfect life and he

20:04

he in his death and in his resurrection

20:07

overcomes the power of the grave

20:09

overcomes the power of sin

20:11

paul says in in romans 6 you are no

20:13

longer slaves to sin

20:15

the christus victor theory would say

20:17

that's because jesus

20:19

broke that chain you are no longer slave

20:21

to sin now you can walk in freedom

20:23

and you are no longer enslaved to satan

20:25

and death you no longer have to

20:27

fear it this is colossians 2 material

20:29

coming out where it says that jesus

20:31

while you were still dead in your sin

20:33

came and and died for your sins and

20:35

conquered

20:36

the power of hell and the power of death

20:38

and and made a public spectacle of them

20:40

that's the christus victor theory of

20:42

atonement which again

20:43

was the by far the most commonly held

20:44

theory of atonement for the first

20:46

millennia of the church

20:47

yeah and then a kind of twist on that a

20:51

riff on that that was

20:52

uh became popular around the third

20:54

century with an eastern

20:56

father named origen is known as the

20:58

ransom

20:59

theory and this would be sort of adding

21:01

to that whole crisis victor story

21:03

this idea that humans are somehow held

21:06

captive by satan

21:08

and the powers how that happened is open

21:11

to interpretation and debate

21:12

but he's like the ruler of the world in

21:14

fact you see

21:16

language and paul and even jesus himself

21:17

referring to satan as

21:19

the ruler of the world like he owns us

21:21

somehow

21:23

and then god sends jesus as a ransom

21:27

as a payment to satan and the powers

21:30

to redeem humanity so you have this kind

21:32

of economic language

21:33

in this view and in this view the ransom

21:35

theory it's

21:37

there is a reality that that god kind of

21:39

pulled a fast one on satan right he's

21:41

like here you can have my son

21:42

here as a ransom and satan didn't

21:45

realize he got fooled because he didn't

21:46

realize that jesus actually can't be

21:48

killed and stay dead

21:49

yeah and and god got the last laugh when

21:52

jesus came back to life right there's

21:54

that

21:54

picture in there when i think of the

21:56

ransom theory in the best way possible

21:58

it's the lion the witch in the wardrobe

22:00

you know i think what's which kid in the

22:03

line which in the wardrobe is the one

22:04

who the

22:05

white witch has power over because he

22:06

said was it edmund

22:08

edmund uh edmund is the witch's

22:11

possession

22:12

because he did this that or the other

22:14

it's been too long since i've read those

22:15

books but

22:16

aslan does that slow march whenever i

22:19

read that part it just gives me the

22:21

chills

22:21

aslan does that slow march to the stone

22:23

table and

22:24

this in this awful scene aslan is

22:28

shaved and tortured and shamed

22:31

and then finally killed and then all of

22:33

a sudden the stone

22:34

the stone table splits in half and aslan

22:37

is alive

22:38

that's the ransom theory yeah and then

22:40

later you get this

22:41

uh this interesting explanation that you

22:43

know the white witch

22:44

her knowledge of magic only went back to

22:47

her beginning

22:48

yep and she didn't realize there was an

22:50

older or deeper

22:51

deeper magic having to do with sacrifice

22:54

so this yeah this motif is picked up in

22:56

a lot of english literature you see a

22:58

very similar thing in harry potter

23:00

actually i'm a huge harry potter fan so

23:02

uh the idea that

23:04

that evil contains the seeds of its own

23:06

destruction

23:08

that to be evil is also somehow to be

23:11

ignorant

23:12

so you see you know voldemort who is

23:14

this consummately evil character

23:16

he doesn't understand what lewis would

23:18

call the deep magic

23:19

about love and so he thinks it's foolish

23:23

and silly and weak

23:24

and so he just grasped after power not

23:26

realizing that the more he grasps after

23:28

power

23:28

he's setting up the tools for his own

23:30

downfall eventually

23:32

so the ransom theory is the idea that

23:34

god does that to satan he sets up a

23:36

story in which satan thinks he's winning

23:38

only to find out he's destroying himself

23:41

[Music]

23:42

you know cheers to c.s lewis and jk

23:44

rowling

23:45

i mean come on funnily enough

23:49

rowling one time in an interview uh

23:52

they were asking her about the christian

23:55

themes in harry potter and

23:57

you know a lot of people think it's

23:58

demonic or witchcraft or whatever

24:02

evil and uh she was like yeah actually i

24:05

didn't talk about

24:06

anything related to christianity about

24:07

it for a long time before the seventh

24:09

book came out because i didn't want to

24:10

give away the ending

24:12

like if you if you put it in connection

24:14

with christianity you kind of figure out

24:16

what's going to happen

24:17

if she had just said something i

24:18

probably would have been allowed to read

24:19

them as a kid

24:23

absolutely that still wouldn't make it

24:26

okay with my parents though

24:29

all right next we have the satisfaction

24:32

theory of atonement

24:34

this one is where a big divide a big

24:38

shift happened in the way we think of

24:40

the atonement

24:42

before this for the first thousand years

24:44

of the church of church history

24:46

the problem was with either satan or

24:47

satan death and sin

24:49

that was our problem and some came along

24:52

in the 11th or 12th century and came

24:55

along and said

24:56

that's actually not our problem our

24:57

problem was with god

24:59

god is the one who we have a problem

25:01

with and who we have to

25:02

have that problem fixed and that is that

25:05

god is a just god

25:07

it says that in the scriptures that god

25:08

is a god of justice god is god who loves

25:10

loves justice he's just and

25:14

god's justice cannot be compromised

25:16

god's justice has to be satisfied

25:18

and so we can't satisfy god's justice

25:21

therefore jesus god sent jesus to

25:24

satisfy

25:25

god's own justice and in jesus death

25:28

vicariously and in substitutionary

25:32

substitutionarily is that a word i'm

25:35

looking at you phd why not

25:37

all right substitutionarily jesus dies

25:40

in our place to satisfy the justice of

25:42

god and boom

25:43

we get in yeah yeah and sometimes this

25:46

view

25:46

is uh it's part of a class of theories

25:49

called

25:49

objective so whereas the moral influence

25:52

theory was subjective because it focuses

25:54

on humans and how things are from

25:56

our perspective and making us better

25:58

this kind of theory is objective because

25:59

it's not about humans it's not about

26:01

how things look from our subjective

26:03

point of view it's all about god

26:05

the the need for sin to be fixed

26:08

is all about god's justice and the

26:10

solution for fixing it

26:11

is entirely on god which kind of helps

26:14

us understand why this point of view is

26:16

so popular

26:17

among reformed christians

26:20

christians who want to place a whole lot

26:22

of emphasis on

26:24

god's point of view and everything

26:26

happens in order to glorify god

26:29

christians like that tend to also be

26:31

some version of objective atonement

26:33

theorists

26:34

usually correct yep because what humans

26:37

do is kind of incidental it's really

26:39

god's gonna do what god's gonna do yep

26:41

and this

26:42

has its roots in paul correct yeah well

26:45

yeah so

26:46

you know to be because we're about to

26:48

pick on a version of this theory

26:50

a little bit later but to be fair to it

26:52

i mean paul talks this way sometimes so

26:54

he says in romans and it's important to

26:57

point out that it's in romans because a

26:59

lot of people take romans a lot of

27:00

theologians take romans to be

27:02

kind of paul's summary statement of

27:05

christianity i mean it's

27:06

probably the most in-depth theology that

27:08

you find in the bible

27:10

absolutely and in romans when when paul

27:13

is talking about sin and death he says

27:15

is chapter 3

27:16

god presented christ as a sacrifice of

27:18

atonement

27:19

through the shedding of his blood to be

27:21

received by faith

27:23

he did this to demonstrate his

27:24

righteousness because in his forbearance

27:26

he had left the sins committed before

27:29

unpunished he did it to demonstrate his

27:31

righteousness

27:32

at the present time so as to be just and

27:34

the one who justifies

27:36

those who have faith so a lot of the

27:38

ideas

27:39

of of this um satisfaction view of

27:42

atonement

27:43

are in that passage yeah i'll i'll just

27:46

like turn off my

27:48

the thing that's screaming in the back

27:50

of my head to talk about what paul

27:51

actually means when he talks about

27:53

righteousness there

27:54

or when he talks about faith what that

27:56

wasn't

27:57

what that was in the greek and what paul

27:59

was really trying to get across

28:00

as opposed to how we've interpreted it

28:02

but i'm going to turn that off

28:04

we don't need to go there yeah maybe

28:06

when we when we uh

28:08

revisit some of the more problematic

28:09

versions of this theory we can come back

28:11

to that if we want

28:12

it's worth pointing out here so because

28:13

i'm a philosopher i love anselm and this

28:16

is not my view of the atonement i just

28:17

love anselm independently because

28:19

he is the creator of the ontological

28:22

argument for god's existence

28:24

which is one of yeah which is one of the

28:26

oldest topics in

28:27

in philosophy uh well at least since the

28:29

11th century when he came up with it

28:31

and it's fascinating and i won't go into

28:33

all details here but it's really

28:34

interesting so i admire anselm as a

28:36

philosopher

28:38

and so it's interesting to see how he

28:39

gets to this

28:41

view of atonement it's all logical he

28:44

he doesn't actually use the bible or

28:47

what he knows about jesus

28:49

to build this theory of atonement he he

28:51

does it from

28:52

purely philosophical foundations

28:55

so he defines god in a particular way

28:58

and then because of the way he defines

28:59

god

29:00

it turns out on his view that jesus

29:03

coming and dying

29:04

for us was actually necessary it was

29:07

logically

29:07

necessary required god had to do it this

29:10

way

29:11

and it's really interesting how he gets

29:12

to that so he says that

29:14

here's his definition of god he says god

29:16

is that then which

29:18

nothing greater can be conceived so

29:21

modern philosophers rephrase that as

29:23

god is the greatest possible being okay

29:26

where god is a maximally great being

29:29

is the greatest possible thing there

29:30

could be and if you could think of

29:32

something greater than that thing would

29:33

be god

29:34

so just wherever your greatness meter

29:36

stops that's what god is

29:38

and because of that because god is the

29:40

greatest conceivable thing

29:42

when i as a human dishonor

29:46

god when i sin and therefore i i say you

29:49

know i know better i'm going to do this

29:50

thing that you didn't want me to do

29:53

i am dishonoring the greatest possible

29:55

thing

29:56

i am i'm devaluing the source of all

29:59

value

30:00

literally and so for ansem that means

30:03

i've done the worst possible thing i can

30:04

do i've said to the source of value

30:07

i'm going to go my own way and so

30:11

i owe god now a kind of debt i need to

30:14

make this right

30:15

i've dishonored the most valuable thing

30:17

in creation and yet

30:19

i'm a puny little human and so i can't

30:22

make it right literally cannot it's not

30:24

within my power

30:25

to repay the kind of wrong that i have

30:27

done

30:28

it's not just a a simple little wrong

30:30

that i've done it's the worst possible

30:32

thing i could have done

30:33

and so god god is now in a position

30:36

where he can go a couple of ways

30:38

he can say i'm going to leave you in

30:39

your sin and you deserve it

30:42

and that would be just right because

30:44

i've dishonored the most valuable thing

30:47

that could be but god also loves me

30:50

and is infinitely kind and so instead of

30:53

that

30:55

he's going to come up with another way

30:56

for that debt to be repaid

30:58

i can't repay it but a human has to

31:00

repay it because a human caused it

31:03

but there aren't any other humans that

31:05

can do it so what is god left to do well

31:07

he has to become a human because only

31:10

god can repay the debt

31:11

and only a human can repay the debt and

31:14

so the incarnation according to ensem

31:16

is absolutely necessary it had to happen

31:19

so he's got it all worked out in this

31:21

really rigorous logical fashion which

31:24

to a philosopher is kind of appealing at

31:26

the end of the day i don't buy it but

31:27

that's that's how he went about that i

31:29

like how you chose to geek out on

31:31

anselm's theory of atonement because

31:33

he's a philosopher

31:34

it's fun yeah so the next one penal

31:37

substitutionary

31:38

penal substitution theory of atonement

31:41

um it

31:42

riffs on anselm's satisfaction theory

31:45

but it's born in the reformation right

31:47

that this is the

31:48

of the major sub atonement theories

31:52

this is the youngest it's born in the

31:53

reformation with calvin primarily but

31:55

also luther

31:56

and it basically just says not only do

31:59

we need

32:00

a substitute or not only does god's

32:02

justice need to be satisfied

32:05

but the wrath of god needs to be

32:07

satisfied and they would

32:09

take the wrath of god as being the anger

32:11

the the

32:12

the just punishment for sin this is the

32:15

one that works in

32:16

punishment it's penal god has to

32:19

punish somebody if god is if god is good

32:22

and sin is sin

32:24

god has to punish somebody so we've got

32:26

this giant i'm going to be cross here

32:27

we've got this giant weapon coming to us

32:29

because of sin

32:30

we've got this eternal nonstop weapon

32:33

coming to us

32:34

and it's this courtroom theory is this

32:37

courtroom picture that we've been given

32:39

that says

32:40

god is the judge we're on trial and

32:42

jesus is the

32:43

defense attorney and satan is the is the

32:47

prosecutor right and satan comes to us

32:50

comes to the judge and he says to god

32:52

he's guilty she's guilty look at all

32:54

that she's done wrong

32:55

and on this day she did this on this day

32:58

she said did that

32:59

you guys have heard this thing right

33:01

yeah yeah and

33:02

the case is closed it's it's obviously

33:04

true and god

33:05

the father just says well all right and

33:08

he's about to

33:08

bring his gavel down jesus goes father

33:11

father father

33:12

don't do it how about this

33:15

you punish me you kill me instead of

33:18

them let them go free yeah and the

33:21

father looks he thinks

33:24

actually yeah that'll work douche

33:27

case closed jesus dies we live

33:30

we need a gavel sound maybe we can put

33:33

in a

33:33

gavel sound you asked for reverb last

33:36

week again

33:39

i'm gonna give you some coupons for your

33:40

birthday and you can use them like

33:42

throughout the year

33:44

sound effects coupons no you should just

33:47

we now we we have a producer we have a

33:50

plaster if we have a philosopher

33:51

we also need a sound effects guy that

33:53

could do it like police academy style

33:55

with his mouth you know what i'm talking

33:56

about

33:59

that's so cheap that's a missing piece

34:02

that's a missing piece

34:03

once we've got some patreon supporters

34:04

we'll give you some buttons you can push

34:06

with sound effects

34:06

there you go how about that nice i will

34:09

abuse that

34:10

man so a

34:13

kind of a twist a maybe a less angry

34:16

twist

34:17

on this kind of substitution view

34:20

would be the wesleyan version of it

34:21

sometimes this is called the moral

34:23

government view

34:24

very much the same idea the the whole

34:26

focus is on god's justice

34:28

he he is the moral governor of the

34:30

universe

34:32

he's the source of all goodness he's

34:33

he's the he's the metric that by which

34:36

we determine what's right and wrong

34:37

and so he can't just let sin slide but

34:40

he's also not mean

34:43

you know he's not he maybe he's not

34:44

necessarily angry he just has to uphold

34:47

a really tough standard so that gives it

34:50

a slight twist maybe makes it a

34:52

little bit more palatable for you know

34:54

still very evangelical but more in the

34:56

wesleyan side of things than the

34:57

calvinist side of things

34:58

absolutely when in doubt about the

35:00

evangelicals look to the wesleyans look

35:02

to the methodists

35:03

their their theology is usually a little

35:05

bit better than the random average run

35:06

of the mill

35:07

evangelical they went there and then

35:09

finally we have the scapegoat theory of

35:11

atonement and this is within this larger

35:13

umbrella of

35:14

new theories of atonement because we

35:17

haven't liked what we've gotten before

35:19

we haven't liked the violence of them we

35:21

haven't liked the penal

35:23

part of them we haven't liked what it's

35:24

done to god we haven't liked all sorts

35:26

of things about

35:27

atonement theories and so recently and

35:30

the most prominent

35:31

people who have been advocates or even

35:33

kind of uh where this originated

35:35

would be and don't quote me on that

35:37

because i'm not positive but rene gerard

35:38

is a

35:40

is a you know flag bearer for the

35:42

scapegoat theory

35:43

a man named james allison is big on

35:46

scapegoat theory and

35:47

really this is the biggest one that

35:48

falls under the non-violent theories of

35:50

atonement

35:51

and that being that god would never use

35:53

violence in order to bring about life

35:56

he couldn't do it that's just that just

35:59

incompatible it doesn't work and so

36:01

when we think about this non-violent

36:03

theory of atonement

36:04

jesus becomes the victim of our violence

36:08

so he and this is another one of those

36:10

that's more subjective

36:12

there's not like it's hard to get the

36:14

scriptures around it

36:15

but jesus basically is a victim of the

36:18

empire

36:19

which is us in their violence and he

36:22

instead of becoming a sacrifice

36:23

he's a victim and in that he opens us up

36:26

to the

36:27

you know fullness of creation as if

36:29

death were not a thing

36:31

yeah these non-violent theories of

36:33

atonement are more and more

36:35

appealing i would say to the younger

36:37

church to the more liberal church to the

36:38

ones that just say

36:40

i can't deal with that idea of god being

36:43

that angry being that

36:44

you know cranky fill in the blank yeah

36:47

this really appeals to me so i don't

36:49

know anything about it this is uh

36:51

you know just prepping for this is my

36:52

first introduction to it i've not read

36:54

any of these guys

36:55

but it you don't know where nature

36:56

gerard i've heard of him but i've never

36:58

read him

36:59

and i've not never read anything about

37:01

this particular theory of atonement

37:03

but already it seems kind of promising

37:05

because

37:06

i'm a pacifist and uh i think i'm a

37:09

pacifist because i think jesus was a

37:10

pacifist which means i think god is

37:12

pacifist and so

37:13

uh in these other views i mean they're

37:15

all very bloody

37:16

they're all warfare-like you know

37:18

they're all very much

37:19

uh god is battling someone else maybe

37:21

even battling us

37:23

and somehow we need to make a blood

37:25

sacrifice to atone for

37:27

the sins and whatever and it just does

37:29

it's hard to square that

37:30

with the kind of self-sacrificial

37:34

other focused violence denying

37:37

teachings and activity of jesus that you

37:39

see in the new testament so

37:41

this sounds promising to me yeah in i

37:43

would say non-violent

37:45

the scapegoat theory and then also the

37:46

just these non-violent theories of

37:48

atonement

37:49

they would say scripturally my guess is

37:50

they would say the book of revelation

37:52

is is our scriptural foundation

37:56

that the lamb of god right like you look

37:59

in revelation 4 john looks and he sees

38:02

he hears a lion and then he looks and he

38:03

sees a lamb and

38:04

it's this lamb of god who had been

38:06

slayed before the foundations of the

38:07

world who actually

38:08

is able to open the book of book of life

38:11

and open its seals and read it out loud

38:12

and so the idea behind that is that the

38:15

empire the roman empire

38:17

the most powerful violent empire in the

38:20

world

38:21

at that moment ex exacts all of its

38:24

violence

38:25

onto god himself who takes it as a lamb

38:28

led to the slaughter and that's how he

38:31

wins the lamb

38:32

overcomes by the by his shedding of his

38:35

own blood

38:35

by the empire's violence and in that act

38:39

s takes all that violence and makes it

38:41

completely useless

38:43

which is beautiful and that is scripture

38:45

it is it is yeah this

38:47

is making me want to read more about it

38:49

there was a there's an obscure passage

38:51

of nietzsche

38:52

and i'm going to butcher it because i

38:53

don't remember exactly where it is but

38:55

uh he

38:56

says something like um you can you can

38:58

measure the power of a being by how much

39:00

violence it can absorb without having to

39:03

fight back

39:04

um and that seems right to me it seems

39:07

like

39:08

god needing to exact vengeance in some

39:10

way

39:12

is inconsistent with the character that

39:13

you see in jesus or god requiring that

39:16

the payment be

39:18

crucifixion yeah some off about that so

39:22

i'm liking this framework the more we

39:24

talk about it the more it appeals to me

39:25

yeah and i like how you sound more

39:27

southern when you you get a little

39:29

you know off the cuff and there's

39:30

there's some off about that

39:33

some just something about it um let's

39:35

let's hone in a little bit on

39:37

the one that we really get a little

39:38

cranky about kyle and that's the penal

39:40

substitution theory of atonement

39:42

yeah so why is it that we get cranky

39:44

about this randy

39:45

well i would agree with you that

39:46

basically it's what

39:49

what this what we said in the beginning

39:51

about our doctrine matters because what

39:52

we believe

39:54

these doctrines that we believe it

39:56

actually frames up

39:57

in and paints a picture of who our god

40:00

is and

40:01

with the penal substitutionary theory of

40:03

atonement

40:04

it does a number of things it creates an

40:06

angry god

40:07

whose wrath must be satisfied right and

40:10

i know

40:11

many of you out there are quoting

40:13

excluding scriptures

40:14

you're going to email them to us that's

40:16

fine i know them all

40:17

but it basically creates this angry god

40:21

whose wrath and whose who whose wrath

40:23

must be satisfied

40:24

and that is inconsistent with the god

40:26

that jesus came to show us

40:28

another thing it does is it promotes

40:31

this dissonance between the father and

40:33

the son and that's what i grew up in i

40:34

don't know about you guys

40:35

but when i was growing up i felt like

40:37

jesus was my buddy and

40:38

i'm scared of the father and this theory

40:41

of atonement

40:42

really doubles down on that that the

40:43

father has to be satisfied the father

40:45

has to punish someone and he's satisfied

40:49

with if he punishes jesus he's just got

40:51

a

40:51

big whooping in him and if you can get

40:53

it out on someone we're going to be okay

40:55

now that's being crass in in in kind of

40:58

unfair in some ways to that theory of

41:00

atonement but there is that to it right

41:02

well to try to to try to represent in a

41:06

in the way that that i can knowing this

41:08

is this is my whole context this my

41:10

tradition and so

41:11

you know to kind of channel that that

41:13

voice if i were to argue for this this

41:15

is

41:16

uh it goes back to the holiness of god

41:18

and it's not that there's this this

41:19

angry father but

41:21

it's a father who can't can't actually

41:23

be exposed to sin and so there's kind of

41:25

this

41:26

this logical maze that has to be

41:29

navigated as you know father okay so

41:31

father can't touch sin uh

41:34

we we are sin only jesus can take sin

41:37

and so therefore jesus takes sin and now

41:38

okay so now

41:39

father can be with us and and it all

41:41

works out and so it's kind of like this

41:44

you know it's not that that god is

41:46

inherently

41:47

violent or anything like that but in the

41:49

presence of

41:50

this you know this enemy that kind of

41:52

twisted twisted things and then there's

41:54

this

41:55

fall that puts us on the side of the

41:57

enemy it's like there's this

41:58

this kind of necessary like the

42:01

bloodshed it's not something that god

42:03

wanted but because he's holy and because

42:05

there's an enemy there's this

42:06

this battle that commences or this you

42:09

know

42:09

god outsmarts the devil and finally

42:11

we're able to be reunited

42:13

with a holy god as we're made holy like

42:15

he is yep yeah

42:17

now let me remind us thank you for

42:20

playing devil's advocate of bringing to

42:22

to you know the conversation that

42:24

perspective elliot but

42:26

we have to remember when we're talking

42:27

about really any of these atonement

42:29

theories

42:30

particularly penal substitution we're

42:33

talk we're drawing from the scriptures

42:35

where

42:35

the writers of the scriptures and

42:36

primarily that primarily the apostle

42:39

paul

42:39

is speaking in metaphorical language we

42:42

take this

42:43

as just fact and real

42:46

like i don't know what the word would be

42:48

kyle but but

42:49

we take this as just like this is the

42:51

truth when paul is painting pictures

42:53

trying to explain to his audience who

42:55

our first century jewish

42:56

audience primarily and with some

42:58

gentiles mixed in there but they've also

43:00

been given this kind of

43:01

jewish upgrade he's a jewish man and

43:04

he's making

43:05

he's making he's creating metaphors like

43:07

a jewish man would which is

43:09

drawing from the old testament the

43:10

sacrificial system and saying hey you

43:12

know how that lamb would go into the

43:13

wilderness once a year as a scapegoat

43:15

and

43:15

all the sins would be put on that lamb

43:17

of the sins of the community and then

43:18

we're okay before god on the day of

43:20

atonement

43:21

that's what happened in jesus paul is

43:22

painting pictures to try to get his

43:24

audience to understand

43:26

so this is just a metaphor we need to

43:28

remember

43:29

in particularly a metaphor from 2000

43:32

years ago

43:33

for people who lived on the other side

43:34

of the world who had a very different

43:36

belief system than we do

43:38

and we're still using this metaphor

43:40

today i understand it's scriptures

43:42

but we have to remember it's paul

43:44

painting a picture to try to get this

43:46

particular people to understand what

43:48

happened in the cross

43:50

yeah and what you just described elliott

43:53

is it's a different take but it seems to

43:56

me no less

43:56

problematic of a take on this view

43:59

because

44:00

while we might be getting rid of the

44:03

violent or abusive kind of

44:07

problem that's inherent in this theory

44:09

we're replacing it with a kind of purity

44:11

idea

44:12

that god can't be tainted by sin and

44:15

that we are sin

44:16

and therefore god must distance himself

44:18

from us because we're unclean

44:20

or something like that and so we still

44:22

end up having the same dissonance

44:24

problem that randy talked about it's not

44:26

a it's not a problem of god is angry and

44:28

jesus

44:28

isn't anymore it's a problem of god is

44:30

holy and jesus apparently isn't

44:32

or is apparently less concerned about

44:34

that because he's happy getting down in

44:36

the muck

44:36

with us the incarnation kind of does

44:39

away with that yeah yeah i mean he was

44:40

rumored to be a drunkard and criminal

44:42

himself because that's the people that

44:44

he hung out with so we still have this

44:45

problem of why

44:46

a lot of us are more liberal than our

44:48

parents so

44:49

it kind of makes sense right well not

44:52

not jesus

44:52

right we can't we can't we can't just

44:54

say yeah well you know he

44:56

he just uh hung out with the wrong crowd

44:59

for a little while he's still the second

45:01

person of the trinity i mean there's

45:03

there's literal identity happening here

45:05

so yes

45:06

you know the new testament's fairly

45:07

clear what goes for jesus goes for the

45:09

father

45:10

uh so the father shouldn't have more

45:12

exacting purity standards than the son

45:14

does

45:14

yep so here's another problem that i

45:17

have with

45:18

the penal substitution theory of

45:20

atonement it's that

45:21

i'm i'm pretty certain there's no actual

45:25

forgiveness

45:26

in the penal substitution theory of

45:28

atonement

45:30

do you know what i mean where that's a

45:32

strong strong claim unpack that

45:34

okay god it seems like

45:38

people would say god can't forgive our

45:40

sins unless he punishes

45:42

us which is actually not forgiving

45:45

he's punishing he he's actually like

45:48

none unable or doesn't want to

45:52

forgive us our sins he wants to punish

45:54

us for them and he has to actually

45:56

punish

45:57

us for them in order to be for us to be

46:00

punished somebody right yeah

46:01

yeah i think has to fly somewhere like

46:03

it's coming

46:04

it's just a matter right and so is that

46:07

actual forgiveness

46:08

forgiveness is you wronged me but i'm

46:11

gonna choose to not

46:12

hold that against you we're okay we're

46:14

good that like i'm going to forgive you

46:16

for that offense

46:17

and not hold on let's be clear that's

46:19

not to say there's no consequences

46:21

sure after forgiveness happens right

46:23

forgiveness

46:25

especially in a christian context

46:26

implies that you expect

46:29

the good of the other person so we could

46:32

talk more about that if you want but

46:34

so it's not as though me forgiving you

46:36

means you're off the hook and you never

46:38

have to improve

46:39

or anything like that and we just ignore

46:40

what happened that's not

46:42

the idea of forgiveness but there is

46:44

something

46:45

i think i see what you're saying there

46:46

is something here that seems a little

46:48

contradictory like

46:50

if i've forgiven you but then also

46:53

expect to be able to take vengeance on

46:55

you in some way

46:56

or expect you to pay a price that i set

46:59

is that really forgiveness right well i

47:01

mean let's go to the lord's prayer

47:03

we say forgive us in the old school way

47:05

we say forgive us our debts

47:08

as we you know if we forgive others is

47:11

it really forgiveness if you say well

47:13

sure i can forgive you your debt when

47:14

you pay the your debt

47:15

like when you actually have paid it then

47:18

i'll forgive it that's not forgiveness

47:19

actually and

47:21

jesus then comes along god in the flesh

47:24

comes along and tells his

47:25

disciples hey i want you to be forgiving

47:27

people and they're like

47:28

hey jesus what if we forgave seven times

47:31

that'd be awesome wouldn't it he'd be

47:33

like

47:34

um how about 77 times seven

47:38

which is jesus way in that culture of

47:40

saying

47:41

an infinite amount of times i'm asking

47:43

you to forgive your brother who sins

47:44

against you

47:46

that is strong that is beautiful and it

47:49

seems to me

47:50

that if we hold to the penal

47:51

substitution theory of atonement

47:53

jesus is actually expecting us to be

47:55

more forgiving

47:56

than god himself because jesus doesn't

47:59

say

48:01

well here's what forgiveness looks like

48:03

make sure they are punished for their

48:04

sins for what they did against you and

48:06

then forgive them an endless amount of

48:08

times but every time they have to be

48:09

punished for their sins

48:10

he just says forgive them that's a

48:12

problem for me

48:16

me too

48:17

[Music]

48:19

you've convinced me

48:22

here's another problem i have with the

48:24

penal substitution

48:26

theory of atonement or with the

48:27

satisfaction theory of atonement

48:30

is it scriptural to say that the justice

48:31

of god has to be satisfied

48:34

would you say that well

48:40

it's scriptural in the sense that paul

48:42

says things that seem to imply that

48:46

is it is it consistent with you know the

48:48

whole

48:49

narrative of scripture taken as a whole

48:53

that's more complicated um i just want

48:55

to be careful that you know the people

48:57

that take this view

48:58

take themselves to be honoring scripture

49:00

that's why they take the view

49:02

absolutely but what about where

49:05

in the psalms and jesus quotes this to

49:08

the pharisees

49:10

david is saying david basically has

49:13

sinned

49:14

and god god comes to him and says i

49:16

delight in mercy not

49:17

sacrifice what is that saying there

49:20

sacrifice being

49:22

the sacrificial system that god gave his

49:24

people to make them right before god

49:26

really was it doing that or was it god

49:27

god give that to them so that they could

49:29

actually

49:30

change their hearts that's what i would

49:31

say but david's saying i'm doing all the

49:34

things

49:35

and god's saying actually i just desire

49:37

mercy rather than sacrifice that's

49:39

that i think is an example of god saying

49:42

my justice is

49:43

secondary to my mercy fast forward now

49:45

to james

49:46

the book of james james says

49:49

you desire mercy or mercy triumphs over

49:52

judgment

49:52

right you know what i'm talking about

49:54

yeah mercy triumphs over judgment

49:57

does that not say that the heart of god

49:59

is a heart of

50:00

mercy over judgment judgment the heart

50:02

of god

50:03

in the heart of god the atmosphere of

50:06

god

50:07

grace and mercy triumph over are greater

50:10

than

50:11

are held higher than judgment and

50:13

justice god

50:14

is willing to suspend his justice for

50:17

the sake of having mercy on the ones he

50:18

loves i would say that's scriptural

50:22

so devil's advocate here yep so we

50:26

we could read passages like that as

50:28

saying that

50:29

when god has like direct interactions

50:31

with humans or

50:32

or when humans have direct interactions

50:34

with each other

50:35

we should privilege mercy over judgment

50:38

and god gives us an example of doing

50:40

that in jesus because that's what he

50:42

wants us to do

50:43

and you maybe you'd add to that that the

50:45

reason for that is that humans are not

50:47

good at judgment

50:48

we're we're we don't know enough to be

50:51

good at judgment we're really frail and

50:53

weak and limited

50:54

and so we end up judging wrongly but god

50:57

is perfect he doesn't have the

50:58

limitations that we do

51:00

and as we already said he is the the

51:02

moral governor of the universe he's

51:03

where the buck stops he has to ensure

51:05

that everything turns out to be good

51:08

and right so judgment is his job

51:11

i mean sure if you know if the heaven we

51:14

all look forward to is going to be a

51:16

reality it's going to be the result of

51:17

god's judgment

51:18

so in some sense his mercy and his

51:21

exhortations to us to be merciful

51:24

has to be consistent with him serving

51:26

the role as

51:27

a moral judge does that make sense

51:30

it does i would just say a couple

51:32

caveats one

51:33

um again far be it from god to ask us to

51:37

be

51:37

something better and more than he is in

51:39

other words just like

51:41

jesus saying forgive an infinite amount

51:43

of times when god has to be

51:45

you know be the punisher in order to

51:46

forgive there's there's dissonance there

51:48

also if god is telling us choose mercy

51:52

over

51:52

over judgment but i'm not going to do

51:54

that for you that's that's that's a

51:56

problem for me but also when we talk

51:57

about judgment

51:58

i think we need to remember we're not

52:00

when we're talking about judgment

52:01

especially in the book of revelation but

52:03

just final judgment

52:04

it's not talking purely about punishment

52:07

judging things is setting things to

52:09

right right balancing the scales for

52:12

once and for all

52:14

god setting things to right for all of

52:16

those who have had injustice and

52:17

oppression

52:19

thrust upon them that's what we're

52:20

talking about when we talk about

52:21

judgment

52:22

setting the world to rights so let's be

52:25

careful there

52:26

so if justice is making everything right

52:31

could it not be then that that a perfect

52:33

god

52:34

he he fulfills his his justice by the

52:37

make the making it right even even the

52:40

the mercy the way he's not asking us to

52:42

be better than him is by

52:43

making uh us perfect in the way that he

52:46

is perfect you know it's so it's through

52:48

that alignment to jesus like all of the

52:50

shenanigans we just talked about

52:51

but but those are the it's it's the

52:54

provision of that that that equals that

52:57

mercy

52:58

and and that justice that justice then

53:01

is served without

53:02

uh us having to perish forever

53:05

sure i can see the mercy in that but i

53:07

don't see the justice in it

53:09

because as kyle said as the philosopher

53:12

the hypothetical philosopher

53:14

who walked into a bar the philosopher

53:16

would

53:17

listen to that and say there's no

53:19

justice in punishing an

53:21

innocent man for instead of a guilty

53:23

person

53:24

there's no justice in that if if jesus

53:27

is going to say hey kill me and god says

53:29

okay that's fine you that works as long

53:33

as you

53:33

say that god needs to punish someone the

53:35

wrath of god needs to be you know

53:37

satisfied but that doesn't work if

53:39

you're saying god is a god of justice

53:41

and he has to

53:42

punish it's not just to punish an

53:44

innocent person for a guilty person

53:46

that's actually

53:47

injustice now it would

53:52

mitigate that problem if we recognize

53:54

that god and jesus are the same

53:56

character in this story right god is

53:58

taking the pun

53:59

it would mitigate it but not solve it

54:01

because god is taking the punishment

54:02

on himself but god is still the innocent

54:04

party

54:06

in this okay now he's the you know

54:08

governor of the universe and do what he

54:09

wants

54:10

uh and some would go as far as to say

54:12

that whatever god does is right

54:14

i'm i think that's a problematic view

54:16

but

54:17

is it we solve the question is it really

54:19

just is it really moral is it really

54:21

right

54:22

for an innocent person to take the

54:24

punishment of the

54:25

i mean isn't this where we get back to

54:27

the like this is the you know greater

54:29

love

54:29

has no man than this part like this is

54:32

the

54:34

no there's nothing really good about

54:37

dying for somebody who

54:39

who you love for you know for for your

54:41

friend for your family for a good man

54:43

whatever this is this is that greater

54:45

love

54:46

uh that it seems like only god can kind

54:48

of set that standard of

54:50

of love or at least exemplify that

54:52

standard of love

54:54

i wonder if this is related to that i

54:57

believe all of what you just said i

54:58

don't think that

55:00

i don't know if that has a whole lot to

55:02

do with the

55:04

the justice of god though well so it's

55:06

interesting that if we take that route

55:09

yeah we're we're no longer focusing on

55:11

justice we're focusing on love

55:13

right we're defining the nature of what

55:15

agape is like not the nature of justice

55:18

which raises a deeper harder question of

55:22

is there a tension between

55:24

self-sacrificial love

55:26

and doing what's right correct

55:29

meeting our justice yeah and that's a

55:32

hard hard question

55:34

yeah and now where if we even then

55:37

like to think about what we think about

55:39

the atonement i mean i

55:41

i love talking about the atonement and i

55:44

love it because

55:45

it magnifies the beauty and the love of

55:47

god to me in

55:48

incredible ways i have a lot of problems

55:51

with

55:52

any theory of atonement that says that

55:54

we have to satisfy god's wrath we have

55:56

to satisfy god's

55:57

god's justice i'm very uncomfortable

55:59

with that because i don't see

56:00

any of that in christ and in and if you

56:03

look at colossians 2 there's

56:04

there's many scriptures that contradict

56:07

that but what

56:08

the the theories of atonement that i

56:09

love and i would hold more to the

56:10

christus victor it's not perfect

56:12

i have some moral influence in there but

56:14

really i think the christmas victor

56:15

boils it down for me scripturally

56:18

in a much better way that says we

56:20

humanity brought this on ourselves

56:22

we have a problem and it's called sin

56:24

death and satan we're powerless against

56:26

that enemy we're powerless against that

56:28

problem

56:29

god isn't though and god becomes a human

56:32

being in the incarnation

56:34

to to live that life that we are

56:36

powerless to

56:38

then gives himself dies killed

56:41

slaughtered by the empire

56:42

in all of the beautiful imagery that

56:44

comes through with that with the

56:46

scapegoating theory of the non-violent

56:47

theory of atonement that

56:48

that god himself takes all the violence

56:50

the empire could ever throw at him

56:52

and he kills it in romans 8 in romans 8

56:55

it says that god condemned sin

56:57

in his fl in in christ he actually

57:00

condemned it

57:01

in himself all that violence all that we

57:03

could throw at god

57:04

he took it and he absorbed it and he

57:06

healed it all

57:08

and when he rose again he gave us that

57:10

life

57:11

that's the theory of atonement that i

57:13

can buy into that i see in the

57:14

scriptures and

57:15

that i think makes me fall in love with

57:17

jesus and the father

57:19

and the spirit more and more and more so

57:22

i want to make a distinction here

57:24

between because we're

57:26

picking on the penal substitution view

57:27

pretty hard we should distinguish a

57:29

little bit i think between

57:31

the the version of that view that's held

57:34

by

57:34

theologians and scholars and the version

57:37

of that view

57:39

that you're likely to encounter at your

57:41

average evangelical church

57:43

so so most of what we've just been

57:46

discussing and all the problems we've

57:47

just

57:48

laid out those mostly

57:51

apply to the version of this theory that

57:54

you're probably going to encounter in

57:55

church

57:56

now now sometimes those those problems

57:58

are endemic to the theory itself

58:00

as it's presented by various theologians

58:03

but

58:04

i personally know some some theologians

58:06

have some friends

58:08

who are reformed theologians who their

58:10

version of penal substitutionary

58:12

atonement would be able to avoid

58:15

most of these problems so that they

58:16

could definitely if they wanted to

58:18

explain

58:19

explain the view in such a way that god

58:21

and jesus don't end up being different

58:23

characters there doesn't

58:24

need to be that kind of radical break

58:26

between them god doesn't actually hate

58:27

us he's not

58:28

out to get us or vengeful or anything

58:30

like that but it is important to say

58:33

that that kind of view of god you know

58:36

the good theology doesn't always trickle

58:38

down

58:38

so i have lots and lots of friends and

58:40

i'm sure you do as well

58:42

who grew up in a kind of reformed faith

58:44

tradition and that very much was

58:46

the view of god that they got maybe

58:48

because their pastors didn't read the

58:49

theology carefully enough maybe they

58:51

just read the

58:52

wrong theologians who knows but that is

58:54

an extremely common view to encounter in

58:56

a church

58:56

itself whether or not it's it's uh

58:59

theologically defensible

59:01

so why do you think it is that

59:04

so many christians particularly

59:05

evangelical christians are still

59:07

so committed to that really problematic

59:09

version of this theory

59:12

i mean i think part of it is that many

59:14

christians

59:15

particularly evangelical christians or

59:17

their parents

59:18

were brought into the camp based on that

59:21

tract that they were given or that idea

59:24

they were sold

59:26

the whole thing began on this theory of

59:28

atonement that they didn't even

59:29

wouldn't even be able to say that but

59:32

they were brought into the the chris

59:34

to christendom based on this picture and

59:36

it makes it

59:38

sense to them and it's everything for

59:40

them it's this key that unlocks

59:42

everything and so if you lose that key

59:44

and all that goes with it everything

59:46

seems to fall apart right

59:47

i mean that's whether it's the evolution

59:50

or the penal substitutionary theory of

59:51

atonement there's a number of things

59:53

that it seems like

59:54

this kind of christian says if one thing

59:57

if you pull this out

59:58

you're a heretic you don't have the

60:00

traditional face there was uh

60:02

i wonder if you've heard of this guy

60:03

there's a guy named ray comfort do you

60:05

know who that is

60:06

sure he uh he he's

60:09

a street preacher evangelist and

60:13

he also i know right runs an

60:15

organization that makes tracts

60:17

uh to hand out on the street so if

60:19

you've ever been involved in doing that

60:20

you probably came across some of his

60:22

tracks

60:23

some of them are really deceptive like

60:24

they look like hundred dollar bills and

60:26

they don't pick it up and you see a

60:27

gospel message on the inside that's

60:29

that's right comfort

60:30

my one of my kids had that happened we

60:32

were walking downtown and they're like

60:33

oh check it out now they go the worst

60:36

the worst thing and i've had

60:37

i've had pastors recommend this to me is

60:40

they say you should leave that

60:42

as a tip imagine that

60:46

now the better ones will also say but

60:48

also leave real money but

60:49

yeah it's definitely a bait and switch i

60:51

mean what's what's worth more than the

60:52

gospel right

60:53

yeah yeah yeah for real they'll say

60:56

treasure

60:57

a 20 or 25 tip

61:01

tip your wait steph please absolutely um

61:03

so

61:04

the reason i bring him up is if you

61:06

watch him engage in his kind of street

61:08

ministry

61:10

what he does usually or did i don't know

61:12

if he's still doing it

61:13

is he'll he'll use the ten commandments

61:16

and he'll ask people uh he'll go through

61:19

the list and

61:20

say have you ever told a lie and of

61:22

course everybody's total loss they'll

61:23

say yes and they'll say what does that

61:24

make you

61:25

and the right answer is a liar and

61:28

they'll say uh

61:29

have you ever you know thought about

61:31

anybody that you weren't married to

61:32

sexually

61:33

and then he'll you know use jesus to say

61:35

well that's just as bad as doing it what

61:36

does that make you oh it makes you an

61:37

adulterer and he'll go through all this

61:39

list of things and then he says well

61:40

you're clearly a sinner

61:43

at the end of that right and then that

61:45

sets up the gospel message for him this

61:47

is how he does it he

61:48

he it's judgment first you've got to

61:51

recognize the gravity of your sin

61:52

first so that you realize how broken and

61:54

devastated and hopeless you are

61:56

so that we can then present the cure

61:58

because if you're not going to care

61:59

about the cure

62:00

in his view unless you're convinced of

62:04

your need for it and if that's if that's

62:06

how you come into christianity

62:08

and that is how many many evangelicals

62:10

come into christianity

62:12

then the suggestion that maybe the whole

62:16

sin plus cure equals salvation

62:20

that maybe that's not necessarily the

62:22

best way to read christianity

62:24

well that's the whole thing if you give

62:26

that up what's left

62:28

uh you know i've had this conversation

62:30

with friends before

62:32

if i'm not being saved from my sin then

62:34

what is it what is the whole thing

62:36

and so there's this um this theological

62:39

conversation about

62:40

well maybe salvation can make sense as

62:44

becoming a certain kind of human

62:48

even if we subtract from that you know

62:51

the necessary

62:52

sin and death component as a way to

62:54

start the whole thing maybe we can still

62:55

think of salvation as being saved to

62:57

some kind of higher uh existence rather

63:00

than

63:01

from some kind of sin that automatically

63:04

damns us all

63:05

now i don't want to necessarily remove

63:07

sin from the whole story at all i'm just

63:09

agreeing with your point here that if if

63:11

you know if that's how you came into

63:12

christianity then

63:14

tipping that apple card over is going to

63:17

be very difficult

63:17

very scary very scary yeah and

63:22

again i would just say the apostle paul

63:25

didn't say the wrath of god compels us

63:28

or he didn't paul didn't say the anger

63:31

of god

63:32

compels us paul didn't say the judgment

63:34

of god compels us he said the love

63:36

of god compels us he said in romans 5

63:39

god demonstrated his love for us that

63:42

while we were still sinners are still

63:43

his

63:44

enemy in some translations christ died

63:46

for us

63:48

there's dissonance there with the penal

63:51

substitutionary view of atonement that

63:54

jesus the action of jesus life death and

63:57

resurrection

63:58

isn't actually to save us from wrath

64:00

it's actually to express the love of god

64:02

towards us

64:03

yeah in john 3 16

64:06

the thing you may read on one of those

64:08

tracks i mean that's what it's all about

64:09

i mean

64:10

also says it was for the joy set before

64:13

jesus that he endured the cross not for

64:14

the

64:15

satisfaction not for the appeasement of

64:17

his anger

64:18

yeah but there is a there's some nuance

64:20

some tension to be held because

64:22

you know right after romans 5 we're in

64:24

romans 7 and it's wretched man

64:26

that i am who can save me and then and

64:28

then we move on and there's kind of this

64:30

you know it's that judgment and then

64:33

oh the answer the salvation uh that that

64:36

immediately follows and

64:39

and this is especially

64:42

especially in a in a culture where we're

64:45

where we're all told that we're like

64:47

we're okay we're

64:48

we're all doing the right thing we're

64:50

all we're worthy of acceptance just as

64:52

we are

64:53

i i don't know if this is me speaking or

64:56

if this is my fundy background speaking

64:58

but there's a

64:59

there's a comfort level i i need to know

65:02

that i'm okay just how i am

65:04

and i think the looking into certain

65:07

parts of the scripture we see

65:08

actually there's a really deep

65:10

fundamental problem

65:12

with well there's a deep problem the

65:14

question is is it really fundamental

65:16

the the fundamental language is going to

65:18

be problematic that that's what becomes

65:20

controversial is it part of

65:22

my nature my essential nature to be

65:24

sinful

65:26

the view that it is comports really well

65:28

with

65:29

the substitutionary atonement view

65:31

because on that view humans are

65:33

in that broader theological view humans

65:36

are

65:37

damned by their sin they are

65:40

uh lifeless dead in sin literally and i

65:43

would agree with that

65:44

personally i mean doesn't sound like you

65:46

do kyle but i do

65:47

i don't think that's the whole story uh

65:49

because that's difficult to square with

65:51

genesis

65:52

where humans are essentially good and

65:55

have the image of god on them

65:57

yeah and they are life isn't the fall

66:00

the entire

66:02

like that's the entire thing though it

66:04

was good yeah creation fell

66:06

everybody you know it's that mark of

66:08

atom that's then on all of us until the

66:10

new atom comes

66:11

so the question then is how far did we

66:13

fall

66:14

did we fall to the point of losing the

66:16

essential goodness

66:18

such that it requires another creative

66:20

act of god to give it

66:22

or did we just kind of mar it such that

66:25

we can still

66:26

be brought back and this is

66:28

fundamentally the disagreement between

66:30

reformed theology and

66:32

a more you could call it armenian if you

66:34

want but

66:35

a different theological strand that says

66:39

that didn't that didn't do away with the

66:41

human essence it was a later accretion

66:43

it was unfortunate but it's fixable and

66:46

it's we're not

66:47

killing a thing and then creating a

66:49

brand new thing we're fixing a thing

66:51

and i mean to your roman 7 citation

66:54

elliot

66:55

i would just say paul isn't talking

66:57

about his eternal

66:59

self there he's talking about the

67:02

struggle against

67:03

his flesh he's talking about the

67:04

struggle against his

67:06

deep innate desire to sin to you know

67:09

where he's going through this like the

67:10

stuff

67:11

the exact stuff that i don't want to do

67:12

i do wretched man that i am and when he

67:15

says that it's not like

67:16

god's wrath is resting upon me he's

67:18

frustrated by his own

67:20

self by his own sin it's not making any

67:23

pronouncements on him like how god sees

67:25

me it's just like this

67:26

sucks brokenness which every human being

67:29

carries

67:30

really sucks like it hurt it sucks to

67:32

hurt people

67:33

when i don't mean to it sucks to to

67:36

violate

67:37

things with my wife when i don't mean to

67:39

that sucks and it feels like it's almost

67:41

inevitable

67:42

but then he comes and brings and here's

67:44

the beauty of it

67:45

god in christ condemns sin and sinful

67:48

man so that it's over

67:49

for once and for all and he did that and

67:52

he just said it in romans 5

67:53

because he was motivated it was

67:55

motivated by his love not his wrath

67:57

i hate myself when i look at myself god

67:59

that's the miracle actually god doesn't

68:02

god doesn't hate me even though i might

68:04

hate myself and my sin god sees me in my

68:06

sin

68:06

it's real it's broken but he still loves

68:09

me

68:09

and he still made a way for me to be

68:12

with him so i would say

68:14

yeah you can have that but don't don't

68:16

put that on god

68:17

don't don't let don't put that view of

68:20

yourself on god because that is

68:21

far from god's view of you yeah part of

68:24

what we're running into here is the fact

68:26

that all of these theories have their

68:28

roots in the same text

68:30

that they're all represented in the

68:32

bible and our need to make them all

68:34

consistent

68:36

is and this might be a little bit

68:37

controversial statement here

68:39

our our need to make them consistent

68:41

might itself be

68:43

expecting the bible to be something that

68:45

it's not

68:46

so we we need to ask the question i'm

68:49

stealing this from peter ends

68:51

we need to ask the question of

68:55

what what right do i have to expect the

68:58

bible to

68:59

to live up to what i want it to be what

69:02

can i really expect from it given the

69:03

kind of document that it is and the fact

69:06

is it's written by a lot of different

69:07

people

69:08

who sometimes contradict each other and

69:11

sometimes contradict themselves

69:13

and so we do find these various motifs

69:16

in there and some of these motifs

69:18

seem to be in tension with each other

69:20

and part of the reason for that is

69:21

because

69:22

the authors of scripture were sometimes

69:24

in tension with each other

69:25

so i don't want i think the project of

69:28

trying to make a consistent

69:29

atonement theory is a really good and

69:31

worthwhile project

69:33

but what you see a lot of times in these

69:35

debates between these theologians is

69:37

they're all trying to show how their

69:39

theory makes all the texts consistent

69:42

yeah instead of admitting that the texts

69:44

aren't consistent

69:45

uh and when when we pick our favorite

69:48

theory that's what we're doing we're

69:49

picking the part of the text that

69:51

seems to best explain how we understand

69:54

god from an extra biblical perspective

69:56

yeah and as much as i would like to

69:58

think that my

70:00

favorite theory of atonement again shout

70:02

out christus victor

70:04

is the best and the only one in the game

70:07

the

70:07

when we talk about the atonement we're

70:08

not talking about a portrait we're

70:10

talking about a mosaic we're talking

70:12

about

70:12

something that is all-encompassing and

70:15

you

70:16

it the fat again the diamond has a

70:19

never-ending amount of facets to it so

70:21

we can actually enjoy

70:23

and glean from all of these many really

70:25

in many ways

70:27

and we can actually let the the rough

70:29

stuff the

70:30

in untrue the the stuff that paints god

70:33

in a really ugly way

70:35

we can let that fall off and feel really

70:37

okay with that and that's

70:38

that's good and scriptural how about you

70:41

kyle where do you land

70:42

on this on these theories of atonement

70:45

how do you look at it yeah so

70:49

i wouldn't i wouldn't be totally happy

70:50

with any of these views on their own i

70:52

mean they all have

70:53

issues that kind of make me a little bit

70:55

uncomfortable the way i

70:56

i've sort of sorted it out in my mind is

70:59

uh

70:59

we can we can distinguish all of the

71:02

important aspects of all of these

71:04

theories and we can kind of classify

71:07

them

71:08

by asking three main questions or these

71:10

questions

71:11

help to explain how these theories have

71:13

been classified

71:15

so we can ask these three questions who

71:18

what

71:18

and how who would be the question of who

71:21

are the main characters

71:22

in this story and for objective theories

71:26

the answer is god god is the main

71:28

character he's who matters

71:29

and uh for crisis victor theories

71:32

it's also god but plus satan god plus

71:35

satan or god plus the powers

71:37

or something like that satan is a main

71:39

character in the christ the classical

71:41

views and in the subjective view the

71:43

answer is humans

71:44

humans are at center stage they're the

71:46

so you know asking the

71:48

the who question helps us to sort of

71:50

understand the classifications of these

71:51

theories

71:52

similarly we can ask what meaning what

71:55

is the problem

71:56

what is the main problem for the and

71:57

each one gives their own little

71:59

kind of answer to what the problem is

72:01

and most of them have something to do

72:02

with human sinfulness or human weakness

72:04

or something like that

72:06

and then most of the meat of the

72:08

discussion between

72:09

theologians about atonement is the how

72:12

question

72:13

how do we fix the problem how is it that

72:16

the main characters what do they do

72:19

to solve the answer to the what question

72:21

and that's where

72:22

most of the conversation that i've

72:24

encountered about atonement that's kind

72:26

of

72:26

the whole thing less common

72:30

is the question why and what i mean here

72:33

is why did this have to happen at all

72:37

why did jesus need to die was that

72:40

necessary

72:41

why did god need to become incarnate and

72:43

some gives a kind answer to that but if

72:45

you don't accept his first principles

72:46

you're not going to accept the rest of

72:48

it

72:48

and most theologians today would not

72:50

accept his first principles

72:51

i'd like personally to see more

72:54

conversation debate

72:55

about that question because it seems to

72:57

me that

72:58

and this pushes me a little bit towards

73:00

the subjective

73:01

point of view or the moral influence

73:03

point of view

73:04

it seems to me the answer to that

73:06

question if i want to avoid a really

73:08

problematic view of god's providence

73:11

and his control of nature then the

73:14

answer to the why

73:14

question needs to be something like

73:18

because humans decided that it

73:22

for me and there's some other

73:23

theological reasons for this

73:26

the answer cannot be god planned it that

73:28

way

73:30

god demanded that kind of sacrifice

73:35

because i have a hard time worshiping a

73:38

god who would set things up to play out

73:39

in that way intentionally

73:41

so the why question for me is really

73:43

primary

73:44

it seems to me that jesus didn't need to

73:46

die the

73:48

the god used this hateful

73:51

violent thing that humans did to save

73:54

them

73:55

and that he did that as a reaction to

73:56

our violence and this is why i really

73:58

like the

73:59

the scapegoat thing it really kind of

74:00

resonates with how i was already

74:02

thinking about this

74:03

so i would maybe gravitate towards the

74:05

non-violent points of view but also kind

74:07

of the subjective points of view

74:08

you know all the stuff we talked about

74:10

with substitution those are all real

74:12

problems i have with it

74:13

the crisis victor seems a little too

74:15

warfare-like for me

74:17

it seems to give a whole lot of power

74:19

and authority to satan

74:21

which i have a hard time with because i

74:24

don't really believe in demons anyways

74:26

you know there's all this stuff all this

74:28

baggage attached to all those so

74:30

at the end of the day i would kind of

74:31

gravitate towards the subjective views

74:33

got it i like it yep

74:36

the fun thing is that we get a lot of

74:39

conversations in places like this

74:42

proverbial bars to be able to noodle

74:44

over this stuff for a long long time

74:46

but yeah talking about things like the

74:47

atonement is good good fun

74:50

and i should say that if we were

74:51

actually having this conversation in a

74:53

bar we'd both probably be a lot more

74:54

drunk

74:55

than we are so we it's heavy stuff and

74:58

we've talked about it for quite a while

74:59

now so

75:01

i'm obsession might have taken a look

75:02

[Laughter]

75:06

well thanks everyone for following us

75:08

through what is a pretty

75:10

geeky topic we've really taken a deep

75:12

dive here and we hope that it was

75:13

valuable to you

75:14

we've had a whole lot of fun so thanks

75:17

for listening

75:27

thanks for listening we hope you enjoyed

75:29

this conversation you can find us on

75:31

social media

75:32

like and share and subscribe wherever

75:34

you get your podcasts

75:35

if you're inclined to leave a review we

75:37

read through all of those and we love

75:39

the feedback

75:39

till next time this has been a pastor

75:42

and a philosopher

75:42

walking to a bar

75:53

[Music]

76:09

well i hope this prompts some thought in

76:11

some conversation

76:13

uh for you listening community uh we'd

76:16

love to hear from you love to hear what

76:18

your

76:18

your thoughts are and what what this is

76:21

prompting and pricking and

76:22

or if this is just old news to you but

76:24

we love

76:25

processing and journeying together with

76:27

you so

76:30

i didn't say i i was like i don't want

76:32

to say like good night and good luck

76:34

in god's speed i felt like that's that

76:37

was like inevitable coming up there

76:40

yeah um how do we should we bring it

76:42

home like that

76:43

yeah that was great just just give it

76:45

one more time

76:46

whenever you're done saying what you

76:48

mean to say then just stop talking yeah

76:50

well i know i know i love talking about

76:52

stuff like this with friends

76:54

um i love talking about stuff like this

76:56

with friends in bars even

76:58

or in kitchens or in living rooms but

77:00

this is fun stuff hopefully

77:02

we've given you some fodders for some

77:04

conversation and for some reflection

77:07

and if not there's always a skip button

77:09

so

77:11

let's maybe not offer that yeah yeah

77:14

they would have skipped

77:18

here we go well i love conversations

77:22

like this

77:22

particularly about the atonement but

77:24

just about things that we can look at

77:25

the complexity of something and turn it

77:27

inside out

77:29

hopefully this prompts some conversation

77:31

some thought

77:32

in your listeners we love thinking with

77:34

you we love hearing from you so let us

77:35

know what you're thinking what your what

77:37

your reflections are where you land

77:39

and where your faith is maybe your faith

77:41

journey has changed in

77:42

and been dynamic and you're maybe you're

77:46

in

77:46

the course of one of those points now

77:48

that's fun stuff we love hearing about

77:49

that

77:52

[ __ ] man i don't know what do i say to

77:55

landon like yeah if you have your last

77:57

sentence

77:57

everything else is gonna be good what's

77:58

the last sentence yeah what's the last

78:00

sentence

78:01

uh it might just be thanks for listening

78:05

like all right yep

78:08

well thanks for geeking out with us dear

78:10

listeners we

78:12

had a whole lot of fun i hope you did we

78:14

hope you did

78:15

and we're excited to geek out with you

78:24

again

78:27

you do it you do it