In this episode we talk with Lisa Koons, who is the national director of 24-7 Prayer USA. Our conversation covers the role of prayer in social justice, why more American Christians aren't focused on racial justice, how anger fits into the Christian response to injustice, and more. Lisa has a powerful, healing presence, and we encourage you to meditate on her words here.
The beer featured in this episode is La Ruche (Blend #3) by Side Project Brewing.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
The artwork for this episode is "Finger of Steel" by Mathieu Cesar. The video mentioned is "How Can We Win" by Kimberly Jones (contains explicit language).
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
In this episode we talk with Lisa Koons, who is the national director of 24-7 Prayer USA. Our conversation covers the role of prayer in social justice, why more American Christians aren't focused on racial justice, how anger fits into the Christian response to injustice, and more. Lisa has a powerful, healing presence, and we encourage you to meditate on her words here.
The beer featured in this episode is La Ruche (Blend #3) by Side Project Brewing.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
The artwork for this episode is "Finger of Steel" by Mathieu Cesar. The video mentioned is "How Can We Win" by Kimberly Jones (contains explicit language).
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
00:14
welcome to
00:14
a pastor and a philosopher walk into a
00:16
bar the podcast where we mix a sometimes
00:19
weird but always delicious cocktail of
00:21
theology
00:22
philosophy and spirituality
00:29
welcome to a pastor and philosopher
00:30
walking to a bar
00:32
we're really excited to talk to a new
00:34
guest today
00:35
about issues related to racial justice
00:38
and the church and oh just all sorts of
00:42
stuff i don't even feel like i can sum
00:43
it up
00:44
yeah yeah no she's she's a powerful
00:46
woman her name's lisa coons
00:47
she is the national director of 24 7
00:51
prayer in the usa
00:52
and my church full disclosure is a part
00:54
of the 24 7 prayer
00:56
movement and uh i'm just there's a few
00:59
people i respect more than lisa [ __ ] so
01:01
i'm
01:02
super excited to share her with you um
01:04
because i think you're gonna
01:05
you're gonna enjoy it so what are we
01:07
drinking today we are in a bar after
01:09
all a proverbial bar sure metaphorical
01:11
bar uh so
01:12
this one is it's a saison so
01:15
a naturally fermented barrel-aged saison
01:18
i think with honey in it
01:20
so this one's called larouche and it's
01:21
from side project brewery in st
01:24
louis missouri so everything side
01:26
project does is
01:27
using like local yeast strains and stuff
01:29
like that and
01:30
and barrel aging in missouri oak and
01:32
whatever they should why wouldn't you do
01:34
that yeah why not and they they have a
01:36
really stellar
01:37
barrel aged stout program that's
01:39
probably the most hyped beer in the
01:40
country
01:42
and uh i will never get my hands on
01:44
everything unfortunately but
01:46
it's the most hyped in in like beer geek
01:49
circles right yeah yeah because i've
01:50
never heard of side project
01:51
yeah in serious beer nerd circles that
01:54
are willing to spend thousands of
01:55
dollars for beer
01:57
not me yeah they're they're they're
01:59
where it's at
02:00
uh and in part you know part of that is
02:02
hype and you know
02:03
it gets crazy because everybody wants it
02:05
and you can't get it and then
02:06
the value runs away but i mean it's it's
02:09
based on
02:10
actual quality so i've had a couple of
02:12
these super crazy rare things and they
02:14
really are amazing
02:15
uh but what we have here is a little
02:16
more accessible i was able to just drive
02:18
up and pick it up when i was in st
02:20
louis last so i hope you guys enjoy it
02:23
awesome
02:25
it's like smelling a flower just
02:29
just the aroma to start i will say
02:31
cezanne is not my like go-to style
02:33
yeah me neither um but this this is
02:35
awesome that because
02:36
most saisons i've had have just been
02:38
kind of dull kind of uninteresting
02:40
kind of just a simple ale with not much
02:43
going on
02:44
but this is really complex this has some
02:46
some fruit characteristics and a little
02:47
bit of funk in it that i like from the
02:49
from the east
02:50
yep now i know you're more enthusiastic
02:52
enthusiast than experts so i'm going to
02:54
ask a question that you may or may not
02:55
know but
02:56
what's the difference between a sour and
02:58
a saison apparently there's a debate
02:59
about this
03:00
so a lot of saisons end up being kind of
03:02
sour which this is
03:04
i think even there's like labeling
03:06
debate like some things that maybe
03:08
aren't necessarily traditionally saison
03:11
still get that on the label and then
03:12
they end up tasting kind of funky
03:14
i'm i'm really not sure it sounds like
03:15
we'll need to dedicate a full episode at
03:17
some point
03:18
i got the sense from googling it earlier
03:21
today
03:21
that we could if we wanted to no fear we
03:24
won't
03:25
do that so you know a traditional saison
03:27
probably wouldn't
03:28
taste very sour but a lot of these more
03:31
um
03:32
you know naturally fermented ones tend
03:33
to yeah this is remarkable i mean i love
03:36
the
03:36
it's kind of a little bit cloudy so
03:38
maybe unfiltered a little bit yeah but
03:40
it's also bottle condition so everything
03:42
they do is bottle condition okay
03:44
and it's bright it's um
03:47
i i get tart apples i get that sour
03:51
finish
03:51
on the tongue which isn't too much
03:53
usually for me sours are too much i
03:55
i can't i could drink a half of one and
03:57
that's it this isn't this is refreshing
03:59
this is a
04:00
a summer beer yeah very citrusy like
04:03
the lemon and orange flavors are yeah
04:05
like as the novice in the room
04:07
that's what i get right away yeah and
04:09
they're most of their stuff ages really
04:11
well too that's the great thing about
04:12
bottle conditioning is you can stick it
04:14
in your cellar and
04:15
open it two years later and it's even
04:18
different more changing
04:19
yeah yeah for sure by seller do you mean
04:21
like
04:22
beer seller or do you mean southern
04:24
style seller
04:25
it's funny cellaring is now just a term
04:28
for storing beer
04:29
so i've i have seen people in the beer
04:32
community that have actual like going to
04:33
their basement
04:34
cellars but usually just means like i
04:36
have a wine fridge
04:37
that i keep at 50 degrees and that's my
04:39
quote-unquote seller but
04:41
it just means you can store it and it
04:43
continues to change and
04:45
get more interesting as it gets older i
04:47
love pretension
04:50
yeah so side project well done larouche
04:54
good stuff yeah and if you guys hear
04:55
this and want to send me a bottle of
04:56
warning stouts i would not say no to
04:58
that how about that
04:59
we'll review it i'll bet we'll like it
05:02
even though it's barrel aged
05:06
well i'm super excited to talk to my
05:08
friend lisa coons lisa is the
05:10
national director of 24 7 prayer usa and
05:14
lisa is going to tell us what that means
05:15
but lisa is an
05:17
amazing and powerful woman who just
05:20
meeting her and being in her presence
05:22
and hearing her tell stories
05:24
will give you i've got the chills so so
05:27
lisa welcome thanks for being here
05:28
oh it's wonderful to spend some time
05:32
with
05:32
you guys talking about things that
05:34
matter to the heart of god i'm really
05:36
glad to be here
05:37
awesome so good lisa i mentioned that
05:39
you're the
05:40
national director of 24 7 prayer can you
05:43
tell us what that means
05:44
sure 24 7 prayer is a international
05:48
interdenominational movement
05:50
that's all about reviving the church and
05:52
rewiring
05:54
the culture we help people encounter god
05:57
and engage with the needs of the world
05:59
through night and day prayer
06:00
wildly engaging prayer spaces and prayer
06:03
resources
06:04
through missional communities and in
06:06
christ-centered social action to
06:08
champion the cause of the marginalized
06:10
and the poor
06:11
in short we serve as a catalyst for
06:13
movements of prayer
06:15
mission and justice wow
06:18
love it yeah i mean we could take that
06:20
apart bit by bit and
06:22
have an episode right there so it's not
06:23
just sitting around praying but prayer
06:25
is is how we and who how we are
06:28
oriented it is at the heart of
06:30
everything we do
06:32
our movement is known as a prayer
06:35
movement and a ton of our resources go
06:38
in that direction
06:39
because it's prayer that births mission
06:41
and justice
06:42
so as i as i follow you on social media
06:46
lisa and know you if i didn't know any
06:49
better i would think that you might be
06:50
a director of kind of an activist
06:53
organization
06:54
and you might be an activist rather than
06:56
actually a director of a prayer movement
06:58
can you speak to why that is i know it's
07:01
not accidental but
07:02
speak to that dynamic well my activism
07:06
is it's born not
07:09
from a great passion
07:12
regarding oh say human trafficking or
07:15
it's not born primarily from allegiance
07:18
to people of color
07:19
of whom i feel an affinity with because
07:21
i am one it's actually born from
07:23
allegiance to
07:25
an interaction with christ you know he
07:27
sent me to use my platform of influence
07:29
to convey his heart
07:31
for issues of justice because of his
07:33
great love for people who are
07:34
hurt by unconfronted injustice in the
07:37
world
07:38
it's friendship with god or prayer that
07:40
begats care for what god cares about
07:43
scripture says he works in us to will
07:45
and to do his good pleasure
07:47
interaction with god is a catalyst for
07:49
all manner of holy living all manner of
07:52
mission
07:52
and justice and work in the world
07:55
there's another
07:56
verse that talks about how we behold him
07:58
as we behold him we become like him
08:01
this idea that that in communion and the
08:04
communication
08:05
that hosts the beholding of god our
08:08
heart becomes like his the things we
08:10
care about
08:11
match the things that he cares about and
08:14
we're actually commanded
08:15
to be about our father's business
08:17
especially with regard to the
08:19
marginalized
08:20
oppressed and voiceless and so for me
08:23
it's difficult to
08:25
be continually uh gazing on and
08:28
interacting with god
08:30
and not feel a growing heart within me
08:33
to uh to live as a holy activist in this
08:36
world
08:37
so i had a question in the outline here
08:39
that i'm just going to skip to because
08:40
it seems relevant
08:41
um about about about the function of
08:44
prayer
08:45
and in in that video that i watched the
08:47
interview you did on youtube
08:49
you talk about several things that
08:50
really caught my attention
08:52
and one of those things is systemic
08:54
racism and
08:56
as the leader of a prayer movement what
08:59
does
09:00
what what do you i guess what do you and
09:01
what does 24 7 have to offer
09:04
to help dismantle a problem so vast as
09:07
that
09:08
i know that's a huge question for a long
09:11
time but
09:12
because so given what you just said you
09:14
know i can think of a lot of
09:16
more conservative christian friends who
09:18
spend a lot of time praying
09:19
but all the social activism you do would
09:22
not be something they're interested in
09:24
so the spirit of god does not lead them
09:25
in prayer to that kind of activism
09:28
uh so yeah as the leader of a prayer
09:30
organization how do you see your role in
09:32
combating
09:33
systemic injustice prayer
09:36
is the communion and the communication
09:41
between god and ourselves
09:44
it's the primary conduit for our
09:46
friendship
09:47
with god it hosts all of our
09:51
interior interaction it hosts
09:54
all of the dialogue that we have with
09:56
him
09:57
it hosts all of the issues on our hearts
10:01
it hosts the primary context
10:04
of our friendship which is why prayer is
10:06
so
10:07
powerful you have to keep in mind that
10:10
when god before
10:11
god pushed play and created humanity
10:15
he had this this angst this desire in
10:18
his heart
10:19
although surrounded by perfection this
10:21
desire in his heart
10:23
which ultimately uh resulted in you and
10:26
i
10:26
being born this desire for interaction
10:29
and communion and communication
10:31
imperfect people set in an imperfect
10:34
environment
10:35
who would invite this perfect god into
10:37
our imperfect
10:38
lives to have relationship and also to
10:42
partner with god to do great things in
10:44
our world
10:45
and that's why i defies prayer as
10:46
communion and communication
10:49
as a conduit for our friendship with god
10:51
and also as a conduit for partnership
10:53
with god to express on earth
10:56
as it is in heaven you know prayer is
11:00
profoundly powerful i don't even know if
11:01
the church is aware of how powerful it
11:04
is
11:04
but i'll offer you this quote the
11:06
potency of prayer
11:08
has to subdue the strength of fire it
11:10
has bridled the rage of lions
11:13
extinguished wars appeased the elements
11:17
expelled demons burst the chains of
11:20
death
11:20
it has rescued cities from destruction
11:23
stayed the sun in its course
11:25
and arrested the progress of the
11:27
thunderbolt
11:29
prayer is as it relates to partnering
11:31
with god in our world
11:33
is one of the primary tools that we're
11:35
meant to use
11:36
to bring transformation in our corner of
11:39
the world or somewhere
11:41
on the other side of the world i can't
11:43
speak for
11:44
what prayer looks like for everyone but
11:47
i know for this particular
11:48
prayer movement that it encompasses both
11:51
the personal
11:53
and the public both our personal
11:55
relationship with god
11:57
and our partnership with god to do good
11:59
in the world prayer
12:00
is what births the revivals that we tell
12:04
our sons and daughters to make them
12:05
strong prayer
12:07
movement birth descending movement when
12:09
god
12:10
when jesus said that the laborers are
12:13
few in the harvest is plenteous
12:15
his first his first command wasn't to
12:18
go but rather he commanded that we would
12:21
pray
12:22
that the prayer movement is meant to
12:24
birth the sending
12:25
movement the prayer birth mission
12:27
movement it
12:28
births justice that prayer has the
12:30
ability
12:32
to do things in the spirit that cannot
12:35
be done
12:35
in the natural to pave the way for
12:38
things to be done in the natural
12:39
that without it a way would not be paved
12:42
so we're very big on prayer in terms of
12:45
personal relationship
12:47
and world transformation around here
12:51
love it you just went in this beautiful
12:54
exposition of prayer and
12:56
many and i'll just say white american
12:58
christians white particularly white
12:59
evangelical christians have said that
13:01
historically and currently racism is
13:03
purely a spiritual problem it's a
13:04
problem of the heart right
13:06
and the only thing that we're called to
13:09
focus on
13:10
is praying for people to change their
13:12
hearts now
13:13
hearing someone may be listening and
13:15
hearing you go on this
13:17
you know really wonderful rant about the
13:18
power of prayer might expect you to say
13:20
something like that would you say that
13:22
would you agree with that
13:23
what are your thoughts on that idea that
13:25
racism is just a problem of the heart we
13:27
need to change people's hearts
13:28
we don't have to worry about laws and
13:30
conditions and all that
13:32
i believe that god invites us to address
13:34
the issue of racism
13:36
really all issues of injustice from both
13:39
sides
13:40
and not either or i think that it is
13:43
a just as much a travesty to believe
13:46
that the body of christ is called to do
13:49
justice
13:50
without being anchored in the
13:52
extraordinary call
13:54
to preach and to pray for the changing
13:56
of hearts
13:58
and so i don't view it as an either or
14:00
you know we're called to preach to the
14:02
thirsty and the naked
14:03
but we're also called to give them water
14:05
and clothing
14:06
while we do so we're called to pray and
14:09
preach for heart change
14:10
while simultaneously embodying what
14:13
heart change
14:14
looks like through acts of justice
14:16
compassion
14:17
mercy and love justice and mercy are a
14:20
demonstration
14:21
of the gospel at work in our lives
14:24
the good samaritan was applauded for
14:26
embodying
14:27
the second commandment in that that that
14:30
more than
14:31
preaching about it embodying of it
14:34
is what is absolutely essential to the
14:36
integrity
14:37
of the gospel that we gather around the
14:41
determination between
14:42
sheep and goat was determined by actual
14:45
works of justice
14:46
and mercy and love and action but the
14:49
reality is
14:50
that we don't do justice to change
14:53
people's hearts
14:54
we do it because our hearts have been
14:56
changed and the love of god compels us
15:00
that's good so
15:03
when i i know that when george floyd was
15:06
murdered
15:07
you and some friends from 24 7
15:10
basically just bought tickets and flew
15:13
straight to minneapolis
15:14
and were on the ground for i don't know
15:16
how long were you there for
15:17
lisa a couple of days a couple of days
15:20
can you tell us about what minneapolis
15:21
was like
15:22
in those days after george floyd was
15:24
murdered and you were right in the
15:25
middle
15:26
of it how was that um
15:29
minneapolis was
15:33
in uproar at the
15:36
epicenter of where that boy george died
15:40
was
15:40
surrounded by crowds of all kinds
15:44
with the agendas of all kinds
15:48
but the over arching theme
15:52
even though there was visual destruction
15:55
and ruin the overarching theme in the
15:58
days that we were there
16:00
were themes of lament were things
16:03
of of anger and grief
16:07
of confusion and a sense
16:10
of of sort of the last straw
16:15
this idea that we may not do it white we
16:19
may not do it well
16:20
we may not do it in such a way that
16:23
doesn't
16:23
uh bring upon us censure but there's
16:26
this idea that we must
16:27
take to the streets and there was during
16:31
the time that i was there
16:33
there was a surprising absence of
16:36
the presence of the church in that space
16:40
which is shocking and and
16:43
troubling because the church is
16:48
for better or for worse called to be the
16:50
light
16:51
of the world the salt of the earth
16:55
the influencer toward righteousness
16:59
that she should be at home in places of
17:02
great darkness and great brokenness
17:04
and upheaval that she should sense a
17:06
command and a call
17:07
to stand in those places and change the
17:10
trajectory
17:11
of it toward the kingdom of heaven and
17:13
toward fruitfulness
17:15
and and a rightness to bring a rightness
17:17
to it
17:18
and so i'm i'm bemoaned the absence of
17:21
the
17:21
of a full measure of the presence of the
17:23
church but
17:25
followers of crisis individuals were
17:27
present
17:28
and they were doing um what they could
17:31
in ways that they could
17:33
and so you saw people offering free
17:35
prayer or or free hugs or
17:37
offering free listening or holding up
17:40
signs that
17:41
were scripture verses expressing god's
17:44
heart for justice
17:45
trying to interject that god is not
17:49
far off from this but rather right in
17:52
the middle of this
17:55
so interesting that vacancy of the
17:57
church that you perceived
17:58
i'm one that makes me think of how in
18:01
milwaukee we've had in the past
18:03
about five years two civil rights and
18:06
racial uprisings
18:07
obviously this whole summer has been
18:09
demonstrating
18:10
and marching and protesting in milwaukee
18:13
you know just a city that needs a lot of
18:16
racial
18:17
healing and all that several years ago
18:21
a young man named seville smith was
18:22
murdered by uh was killed by
18:24
a police officer in an inner city
18:27
neighborhood in milwaukee and there was
18:28
an uprising though there was some
18:30
minor looting and rioting that happened
18:32
well significant actually
18:34
and the church showed up we got together
18:36
i got together with other pastors
18:38
strategize how do we do this and i would
18:41
say unfortunately
18:42
we came in with like there was a sign of
18:45
no jesus no peace no jesus no peace kind
18:47
of deal or whatever
18:48
and it was very obviously the church
18:50
quote unquote showing up
18:52
and we got rebuked by some activists
18:55
there was one activist in particular who
18:58
saw us come in it was overwhelming we
19:00
came into the park where all the
19:01
demonstrations were happening
19:02
and after a while he just stood up and
19:04
said where have you been
19:06
like you want to come in here and
19:08
sprinkle some jesus on us and pretend
19:09
that you're doing your duty
19:11
but where have you been when our youth
19:13
need places to find refuge where have
19:15
you been
19:16
when when this has been happening
19:19
non-stop
19:20
and we haven't seen the church now
19:21
there's a crisis and you guys show up
19:22
and you think that you're going to try
19:23
to save the day
19:24
and we actually it was beautiful we had
19:26
a moment of repentance of pastors saying
19:28
you're right
19:29
you're right and we repent would you
19:31
forget you know we want to listen we're
19:32
here now to listen
19:33
and we're going to do this differently
19:34
we're going to come back every night for
19:36
as long as it takes to be with you and
19:37
to listen
19:38
so that was my first taste of it and i
19:41
was like oh i don't want to do that
19:42
again
19:43
so this time we didn't have any
19:46
official churchy prayer like
19:49
let's gather here and let's be the
19:50
church but we just told people to go go
19:52
be in the community
19:54
go go to marches go to protests and you
19:56
know particularly peaceful ones
19:58
and be a presence there and be let's not
20:01
try to tell the community what to think
20:03
let's actually try to
20:04
be incarnational and just march
20:06
alongside
20:07
our milwaukee brothers and sisters so it
20:10
gets me thinking about
20:13
there's no perfect way to do it right
20:15
but
20:17
i think the church showing up looks
20:19
different than many of us
20:20
think it might look right it looks
20:23
perhaps more humble and incarnational in
20:25
listening
20:26
more than speaking first and trying to
20:27
evangel evangelize to everyone
20:29
do you agree or disagree well i want to
20:32
take your point a little bit further
20:35
the church present is a powerful thing
20:40
without signs and jesus t-shirt
20:44
the church itself present is in its own
20:47
right
20:48
powerful in its own right a present
20:50
church
20:51
praying is in its own right powerful
20:54
enough
20:55
the church present to grieve with and
20:58
lament with
20:59
is more powerful than a church present
21:02
in that context trying to evangelize
21:04
there but what what i want to address is
21:07
something you mentioned you sort of got
21:09
together and prayed
21:11
you know it's a funny thing that
21:15
one size does not fit all
21:18
that if if a church united wants to
21:22
present
21:22
a presence in this type of context one
21:25
of the most profound things they can do
21:28
is pray and ask for the wisdom of the
21:30
lord the discernment of the lord
21:32
sometimes the lord will send the church
21:34
out with
21:35
placards and boldness with an
21:38
evangelistic stand
21:40
and god's grace and power will be
21:42
present with them and an anointing to
21:44
break yolks in that context
21:46
and a grace to handle the backlash
21:49
sometimes
21:50
they will be sent into a context to
21:53
minister to sometimes they will be set
21:56
to serve
21:57
water bottles and bread and these type
21:59
of tea sometimes they'll be set
22:01
in full regalia in colors and
22:04
in in the the full ministry regalia sent
22:08
out in front
22:09
of protest singing songs and hymns
22:13
i like the idea of a church that wants
22:15
to be present
22:17
in some form actually taking a little
22:20
time to pray and get the counsel of the
22:23
lord
22:23
and if the lord should not choose not to
22:26
speak a clear word
22:27
than to show up uh not with and
22:31
not leading with an agenda but to lead
22:35
with presence
22:36
as it were yep that's good
22:40
so lisa we we are encountering this as
22:43
is who we are and there's nothing wrong
22:45
with that but as white males
22:47
you are engaging with this as a as an
22:50
african-american woman
22:51
and you're engaging with this as a
22:53
mother of a young black man
22:55
can you tell us can you just bring us
22:58
into your
22:59
eyes and your heart and how you see this
23:03
and what what's your perspective in this
23:06
for a long long long
23:10
time living with
23:14
regular encounters of macro and micro
23:18
uh racial aggression living in a in a
23:22
society that is
23:24
oriented toward whiteness
23:27
for a long time except among
23:31
the true activists and organizations
23:34
for a long time i and so many of my
23:37
friends
23:38
we took the posture uh to be in america
23:41
you keep your head down
23:43
you adapt you assimilate you keep going
23:47
you don't put take a bullhorn to your
23:50
mouth and
23:51
and shout and rattle around your common
23:54
experiences
23:55
just keep your head down and keep going
23:58
and we did
23:59
for a long long long long time
24:02
but the these issues of racism that kept
24:06
boiling up onto the surface we were
24:08
confronted by them not because racism
24:11
had increased
24:12
but because it was beginning to be
24:14
filmed
24:15
and then put back in this public setting
24:18
and we and everyone around the world
24:20
were steadily confronted by
24:23
these realities making it more difficult
24:26
and more difficult to maintain that
24:28
trajectory of
24:29
keep your head down adapt assimilate
24:33
you know focus on what you're given to
24:34
focus on we
24:36
coveted hit and and we barely
24:40
had recovered from the death of ahmad
24:43
arbury
24:45
where all we could do was as individuals
24:47
and families and
24:49
small groups in lesser numbers than 10
24:51
was lace up our gym shoes and run
24:54
through our neighborhoods when just
24:56
shortly after
24:57
the word came that george he died and it
25:00
felt
25:01
but some people describe it as the last
25:03
straw
25:05
but it felt his death felt like such a
25:08
catalyst
25:09
to take to the streets that irrespective
25:11
of covet
25:12
that there was just a need to go public
25:15
to
25:16
to exchange the trajectory of keep your
25:19
head down adapt and assimilate
25:21
and go public and so just as an
25:23
african-american
25:24
woman it has been beautiful
25:28
and terrible you know it has been
25:30
beautiful to
25:31
uh to see our stories and our lived
25:36
experiences
25:37
now being heralded and bullhorned it has
25:40
been
25:41
terrible as we share the stories that we
25:44
had long
25:44
tucked away as they piled up to
25:48
begin to put them out there and
25:50
encounter the kind of
25:51
backlash and deflection and accusations
25:55
or worse apathy um as a result
25:58
of telling what it's like to be black in
26:01
america
26:02
but i cannot i can scarcely blame
26:06
a disbelief i can scarcely blame
26:10
us being referred to as liars or
26:12
exaggerating
26:13
or making much of nothing uh if you were
26:17
to
26:18
say take a look at the stats of how many
26:21
blacks are killed by police
26:23
it is an unimpressive number but if you
26:25
would take the collective
26:27
stories of the blacks in any given
26:30
neighborhood
26:30
near you much less across a nation
26:34
the collective stories that we would
26:36
tell would be hard to
26:38
ignore hard to deny that's
26:41
our reality and so it has been
26:44
a wonderful season and a terrible hard
26:48
season but this is the season
26:52
for the stories to emerge for the truths
26:55
to be told
26:56
and even for there to be discernment and
26:58
conversations
27:00
in terms of what is true and what isn't
27:03
this is the season i think that god is
27:05
using as a catalyst
27:07
to help not just the united states but
27:09
the world at large as other nations
27:11
grapple with the same
27:12
issue to help them have conversations to
27:15
help them
27:16
figure out whether or not they want to
27:18
address
27:19
this issue that is embedded in every
27:22
culture that we know of
27:23
but that is catalyst around the idea of
27:26
racism itself
27:28
so it's been hard and wonderful as a
27:31
mother
27:32
it is especially tenuous because i don't
27:35
know any black mother that hasn't had to
27:37
have the talk
27:38
with their black sons especially the
27:40
talk about why they can't behave
27:43
in public uh in certain ways that wipe
27:45
their white friends can
27:47
why to give them the talk about why they
27:50
have to follow these six steps if
27:52
they're ever pulled over
27:54
by the police and why that's necessary
27:57
to explain to them that the goal is to
27:59
get home
27:59
alive to convey to them that while for
28:02
their white friends a police stop is an
28:04
inconvenience
28:05
but if you are a black young man it
28:07
could be potentially legal
28:09
to have a talk with them that makes them
28:11
move about
28:12
in the world mindful of the the culture
28:15
and the reality that they live in
28:17
that's that's that's the hard part right
28:19
there
28:22
so let me ask you one follow-up question
28:24
before i let kyle jump in
28:26
i've seen you interact with you you've
28:29
been
28:30
tenacious in in not letting people
28:32
ignore
28:33
this racial movement in america
28:36
this summer and i've watched and i've
28:38
seen you interact with
28:40
i'll just say what it is racist people
28:42
and particularly
28:44
people who have some racism within them
28:45
in the church and who have
28:48
downright rejected your perspective
28:50
downright rejected your experience
28:52
downright rejected and explained away
28:56
and you have brought such patience
28:59
such love but also such strength not
29:03
letting people
29:03
off the hook and it's just been so
29:06
impressive to me
29:07
how do you do it i i would i've i've
29:09
watched your posts and watched
29:11
and listened to you talk so much and
29:14
there's been numerous times where i'm
29:15
like
29:16
i would have i would have lost it i
29:18
don't know how you do it and
29:19
it's not just you i think it's black
29:21
people in general i don't
29:23
i just don't know like i've i've been
29:26
speaking up an at
29:27
probably a a heightened amount for a
29:29
white pastor
29:30
because i've made the decision to do so
29:32
and i today had a rough
29:34
day because i've i've come in contact
29:37
with some rejection
29:38
and it's it was rough it changed my
29:40
whole day i was
29:42
i was depressed today and then i thought
29:44
of you and then i thought of my black
29:46
pastor friends
29:47
and it just humbled me i have no idea
29:50
how you can take that amount of
29:51
rejection
29:52
and hatred and come back with humility
29:55
patience
29:56
strength and love
30:01
i attribute it to the grace of god at
30:04
work
30:06
you know the same life that was resident
30:09
in jesus christ the the head of the
30:12
church the savior of the world
30:14
is the same life i'm told that's
30:16
resident in me
30:18
come on and the same grace that he had
30:21
to be
30:22
in volatile situations and keep his cool
30:26
is the same grace and life of god at
30:29
work
30:30
in me the ethos of the kingdom of heaven
30:33
that he lived by is the same ethos of
30:36
the kingdom of heaven
30:37
that i live by and i certainly don't get
30:40
it perfect
30:40
every time but there is a grace to be
30:44
in the middle of a fight and not fight
30:46
malice with
30:47
with malice not fight divisiveness with
30:50
divisiveness
30:52
not to not be allowed to lash out
30:54
irrationally or to ven
30:56
my passions because there's an
30:58
understanding that how
31:00
we get from a to z is just as important
31:03
as that we get from a to z
31:05
and that if we as the body of christ
31:07
aren't prepared to get from a to z
31:10
in a way that is christ-like and loving
31:13
even of those who are behaving like our
31:15
enemies
31:16
then i'm not sure we deserve the z that
31:19
we get to
31:20
if we violate our our witness
31:24
if we violate embodying the nature of
31:26
god
31:27
in the midst of these messy fights if we
31:31
set that down to leverage our focus on
31:34
winning the argument and we're forsaking
31:37
the winning of hearts
31:38
then we're shooting ourselves in the
31:40
foot it's the grace of god at work it
31:42
means the same grace
31:44
that exercises patience toward my inner
31:46
enemy
31:47
is the same grace that gives me at times
31:50
an okay to flip over tables
31:52
in a social media commentary that that
31:55
that it can hold both and still be
31:58
motivated by love
32:04
friends before we continue we want to
32:06
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if you're in milwaukee you'll thank
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yourself for visiting story hill bkc
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and if you're not remember to support
32:36
local one more time that's
32:39
storyhillbkc.com
32:41
so as a fairly liberal christian
32:45
both politically and and theologically
32:49
as i watch all these videos or actually
32:51
try to avoid watching the videos but
32:52
but since all the things happening and
32:54
see all the stuff on social media
32:56
just a confession i have been pissed
32:59
since march
33:00
just like just rage like yesterday i sat
33:03
in my office and just cried and rage
33:06
at some stuff i'd seen and
33:09
when i think about what i want to do
33:10
about that my mind does not go to
33:14
anything christian if i'm honest
33:17
there's a an activist named
33:20
um i believe her name is
33:23
kimberly jones and she had a viral video
33:25
that went around that really
33:27
um it was really powerful it was played
33:29
on on various uh
33:31
late night shows and whatnot and got a
33:33
lot of views and
33:34
one thing she points out in there which
33:35
kind of spoke to me as a philosopher
33:38
is that you know all the complaining
33:40
that you see about
33:42
the rioting and the looting and the
33:43
burning down of the buildings and
33:44
everything
33:45
the complaining about you know you guys
33:47
should do that more peacefully
33:50
that this is actually working across
33:52
purposes with your goals
33:54
and her response to that part of her
33:57
response anyway was to point out that
33:59
the whole idea of
34:02
honoring one another's property and
34:04
honoring one another's space
34:06
is predicated on a social contract
34:09
and that the once one party to the
34:13
contract
34:14
has violated it that the other party is
34:16
no longer
34:18
bound to the terms of the contract and
34:19
this is a really old philosophical idea
34:21
and it spoke to me
34:22
in a powerful way it made a lot of sense
34:24
to me and
34:26
i feel when i see somebody burning down
34:29
a target for example
34:32
i feel closer to justice in that moment
34:34
than i do
34:36
just frankly when i hear pastors talk
34:38
about
34:39
praying together for something to change
34:41
and when i when i think about
34:43
what i want to see happen concretely and
34:45
practically and what i as an individual
34:46
can do about it and what i can encourage
34:48
my students to do about it and my
34:49
friends to do about it
34:51
i think of concrete political action
34:54
i think of voting for particular
34:55
candidates instead of other particular
34:57
candidates
34:58
and i think of contacting
35:00
representatives and suggesting specific
35:01
policies
35:02
i don't think of anything christian
35:05
acceptance so far as that stuff is also
35:06
christian
35:07
but but i don't think of churchy things
35:11
and in fact when people suggest churchy
35:13
things i i'm inclined to think of it
35:15
more as a
35:17
uh think of it more as a distraction i
35:18
guess than than anything that's going to
35:20
cause
35:21
real concrete change because i've been
35:22
at churches my whole life where people
35:24
talk about that [ __ ] and then nothing
35:26
happens and and right now we're burning
35:29
things
35:30
down and it feels like maybe something
35:31
will happen but only if we force the
35:33
issue politically
35:35
so i guess i'm asking for correction
35:39
a better way to incorporate in my mind
35:42
justice in a political sense and justice
35:45
in a christian sense
35:46
because if if the christian sense isn't
35:48
the other one that i'm not interested in
35:51
well you your anger and rage is
35:54
certainly justified
35:56
and it speaks to a sensitivity of heart
35:59
that that that sensitivity itself is
36:02
very much
36:03
like the nature of christ that it is
36:05
christlike
36:06
uh that that the father himself
36:09
expresses a lot
36:10
especially throughout the old testament
36:13
anger and
36:14
rage at injustice it just
36:17
lands blows as he openly expresses his
36:20
heart around it
36:23
but our call as followers of christ are
36:26
not to be motivated by anger and rage
36:28
they're to be motivated by love even in
36:30
our pursuit of justice
36:32
if we're motivated by anything less
36:36
than by love then you know is this idea
36:40
back from how you get from a to z
36:42
is just as important as that you get
36:45
from a to z
36:46
that if we take up the tools and the
36:48
resources of the kingdom of darkness
36:51
to try to produce the fruit of the
36:52
kingdom of heaven
36:54
then we are sort of at odds with
36:56
ourselves but i actually applaud your
36:58
anger and rage and i
36:59
applaud your heart to to see and
37:03
and to desire work on the surface of
37:06
things to bring about
37:08
change um there's there's a couple of
37:11
ways to bring about
37:12
change and in the kingdom of heaven the
37:14
ideal way
37:16
is the partnership of the church and the
37:18
practical it's the partnership
37:20
of praying and the practice of
37:24
of working toward justice on the surface
37:26
one without the other is like
37:29
giving yourself the satisfaction of
37:31
ripping a dandelion out from the ground
37:34
but not addressing the root of it that
37:36
sits below the ground then you have to
37:38
come back in another season
37:40
as this current uh trajectory has proven
37:43
out
37:43
to rip that thing out again that that
37:46
we're not
37:48
paul once rebuked the church for walking
37:50
like mere mortals
37:51
for walking like mere men for taking the
37:54
the sense of injustice and and and uh
37:58
and operating like mere men and we are
38:00
called and bound to live
38:03
from the life of god to utilize the
38:05
resources of heaven
38:07
to to move out in the world in
38:10
partnership
38:11
with god and in doing so there is a
38:14
promise that there would be more
38:15
fruitfulness more lasting fruitfulness
38:19
than just what reactionary
38:23
good works can produce
38:26
we're in this for the long haul the long
38:29
game and ultimately when the spirit of
38:32
the lord is
38:33
is at work in a group of believers in
38:36
individuals lives
38:37
ultimately it tends to look like both a
38:40
ton of prayer
38:41
and a ton of activism both a ton of time
38:45
seeking the lord and listening to his
38:47
counsel and
38:48
praying for transformation and watching
38:52
the lord
38:52
use you to be his hands and feet to go
38:55
about doing that
38:56
but i want to encourage everyone to not
38:59
make the novice mistake
39:01
of being led by their passion and their
39:04
rage as opposed to
39:05
being led by the spirit of the lord so
39:08
quick follow-up does does
39:12
racial justice from a christian
39:14
perspective
39:15
look any different to you than it would
39:17
from say a mainstream democratic party
39:19
perspective
39:24
biblical justice is biblical justice
39:28
and god can and prefers to use the
39:31
church
39:32
to embody it to execute it to to move
39:35
that ball forward
39:36
but he is not and he is not immune to
39:39
using
39:40
the secular arena to further
39:43
his goals in that example of uh
39:47
justice and compassion being enacted
39:50
in the story of the good samaritan it
39:53
was a secular guy that embodied
39:55
the work of the kingdom that represented
39:58
the uh
39:59
the ideals and the action that jesus
40:01
wanted for
40:02
the religious people that were passing
40:04
on by
40:06
and so god can work uh in both the
40:08
sacred
40:09
and the secular arena does it look
40:12
different and how it looks different
40:14
it should look different in that those
40:16
who are followers of christ
40:18
who are partnering with god to do
40:20
justice in the world
40:22
are bound by a mandate and are resourced
40:25
with the grace
40:26
to do so in a way that is committed to
40:30
love committed to christ likeness in
40:32
nature
40:33
committed to self-denial and and putting
40:36
other
40:37
first committed to non-violence
40:39
committed to
40:41
and the list can go on in terms of how
40:44
the guard rails are set around us so
40:47
that we do justice in a way that
40:49
reflects
40:50
the heart of god who is just himself
40:53
and not just in a way that gets the job
40:56
done as it were and i would say
41:00
is a follow-up to what lisa just said my
41:02
question
41:03
wouldn't be is the democratic party or
41:07
any political party
41:09
does that does god's response or does
41:10
the church's response look like that
41:12
my question would be as followers of
41:15
christ does our response as
41:17
either democrats or republicans look
41:19
like the god we find in the prophets
41:20
primarily right
41:21
does it look like does our response to
41:23
racial just injustice
41:25
look like isaiah 58 in isaiah 1 in
41:28
isaiah 10
41:29
because we're talking about personal
41:32
you know activism in advocacy
41:35
but we're also talking about isaiah 10
41:37
is talking about holding
41:39
unjust rulers to account for putting in
41:41
place oppressive and unjust laws
41:43
these are these are biblical things and
41:47
i as a christian my job isn't to say i
41:49
want
41:50
to reflect the democratic party or i
41:52
want to reflect the republican party
41:53
it's to i want to reflect
41:54
the god of the scriptures who is dead
41:56
set
41:58
against oppression injustice wherever
42:00
it's found and he's calling us as
42:01
individuals he's calling us as a people
42:03
of god
42:04
and he's calling rulers and us the
42:06
church to hold our rulers accountable
42:09
for the lack of justice that we find in
42:12
any particular
42:13
moment in time so i would i would just
42:15
kind of flip that around a little bit
42:17
the church is called to speak truth to
42:19
power
42:20
truth to power in the lives of
42:22
individuals in the lives of communities
42:25
in the political corporate all
42:28
seven mountains as it were to speak
42:31
truth
42:31
to power that is our call and our
42:34
mandate but
42:35
if we speak truth to power out of a hate
42:39
for injustice
42:40
rather than out of a love for
42:43
you you see what i'm saying if our
42:45
motivation is
42:47
is born out of rage and out of anger
42:50
and out of zeal for rightness rather
42:53
than being
42:54
born from the heart of god then i i
42:56
think that there are nuances we're going
42:58
to miss
42:58
there's a quality of forgive me for
43:00
sounding charismatic
43:02
of anointing that won't be present in
43:05
our picking up the bullhorn
43:06
in the name of god you know fruitfulness
43:09
is
43:10
is supposed to be the end game to act to
43:13
have
43:13
actual transformation actual
43:15
fruitfulness
43:16
actual impact and god promises
43:20
uh that to deliver that kind of things
43:22
for those
43:23
who are partnered with them who are
43:24
submitted to them who are not being led
43:27
by their
43:27
rage but being led by love for people
43:30
who are oppressed
43:32
and led by the spirit of the lord we can
43:34
all lift off that yoke
43:36
and and run wild into the fire and let
43:39
slip the dogs of war
43:41
and ask god to bless us as we go but
43:44
that is not the ideal way
43:46
to lead toward a long-term fruitfulness
43:50
and change and speaking of
43:54
the church being called to speak truth
43:55
to power lisa
43:57
let's just be honest the church that i
44:00
know at least
44:01
that i see is not very good at doing
44:04
just that
44:05
usually it's the opposite it's the
44:07
church cow towing
44:08
to people in power so that they can get
44:10
more power let's just
44:11
just be totally honest why do you think
44:13
that's the case you've
44:14
worked and consulted with and worked in
44:17
countless churches
44:18
i mean you you're a dire peer director
44:20
but you're also
44:21
working in churches and helping reform
44:23
staffs and
44:24
in doing all sorts of things in churches
44:27
i'm guessing your
44:30
experience has been similar to mine
44:32
whereas mostly the white church is just
44:34
deathly silent i mean there's just it's
44:37
crickets
44:38
and one of the reasons that two of the
44:39
reasons that i'm
44:41
raising my voice in ways that some
44:43
people might not like is because first
44:44
the spirit of god just addressed me
44:46
personally and powerfully and i i was
44:48
compelled to second
44:49
my black pastor friends said white
44:51
pastors where are you
44:53
where are you white pastors where's your
44:55
voice we need your voice it can't just
44:57
be
44:58
us and that compelled me as well but
45:01
there's so
45:01
much silence so much frustration from
45:04
congregants who don't
45:05
hear a thing maybe they hear a
45:06
two-minute little little
45:08
explanation or you know bible-ly thing
45:12
for why this black man was killed you
45:14
know ahmad arbury george floyd
45:16
tell me we go down the list and then you
45:18
never hear it about it again because
45:19
it's all
45:20
butterflies and crosses and jesus you
45:23
know
45:24
it's inspirational and you don't want to
45:26
rock the boat i've got all sorts of
45:27
theories but i'd like to hear
45:28
your perspectives particularly you're in
45:30
charlotte
45:32
what's been your perspective on why
45:34
white churches
45:35
and pastors haven't spoken up more well
45:38
some
45:39
churches are a part of denominations
45:43
that
45:44
that have embraced the doctrine that the
45:46
outworking of justice is simply not what
45:48
the church is called to do
45:50
and it's that conviction that keeps them
45:52
away from and
45:54
even wary of those who are in this arena
45:58
uh advocating for justice i
46:01
naturally i disagree but there's a part
46:04
of me that
46:04
admires uh the conviction of that aspect
46:08
of the body of christ
46:09
to stay true to their current
46:11
understanding
46:12
because they believe that their focus is
46:16
meant to be the sort of preaching of the
46:19
gospel only as it were the one side of
46:21
that two-sided coin we talked about
46:23
before so that's the first thing some
46:26
people really do hold to doctrines that
46:29
that uh take this kind of work as extra
46:32
biblical
46:33
not what we're called to another section
46:35
of the church is
46:36
fearful of the cost if they were to
46:39
step into this arena and and uh
46:42
and while i don't convulse condone fear
46:44
i understand
46:46
their anxiety around this there are
46:49
examples of those who have
46:50
that have been excommunicated from their
46:52
churches fired from their churches
46:54
asked to leave um attacked so
46:58
viciously that it will take um time to
47:01
repair the
47:02
the breach of trust between the pastor
47:06
and their congregates there is a cost
47:09
to this and so there's rightly fear
47:11
around it
47:12
and then other parts of the of church
47:14
leadership they simply feel ill-equipped
47:17
to step into this conversation they're
47:20
used to leading in strength
47:22
speaking in strength and this area is it
47:25
feels foreign to them they don't feel
47:26
equipped to speak
47:27
into it well and it's for all three of
47:30
these
47:31
types of leadership of church leaders
47:34
that we pray
47:35
that we pray for the first type that
47:37
doesn't believe that justice isn't out
47:38
working
47:39
we pray that god would give them a great
47:41
revelation
47:42
to see the fullness of his heart for
47:44
justice to understand that his
47:46
his throne is is established on
47:49
righteousness
47:49
and justice as they read the old
47:51
testament and the new testament
47:53
that god's heart for justice and even a
47:55
command and a mandate
47:56
for people of god to operate in that are
47:59
present in scripture
48:00
and we pray for them that that they
48:02
would not demonize
48:04
those who believe differently who
48:06
actually are fighting for justice
48:07
and for those who are feel free or feel
48:09
ill-equipped we pray for them as well
48:12
and i'm a part of a movement that has
48:14
created a ton of resources
48:16
to help them get equipped to feel
48:18
confident enough to speak into
48:20
this issue even as we encourage them to
48:22
speak into it
48:24
while they're getting better at
48:26
understanding the issue
48:28
it's something that i posted it it only
48:29
takes a second to stay
48:31
take a stand and while it it it's okay
48:33
to take time
48:34
to devise a strategy and figure out how
48:37
you're going to go about this
48:38
but it only takes a moment to take a
48:41
stand and say we side
48:43
with the oppressed with the marginalized
48:45
with those who have
48:46
who have been pushed to the side we side
48:48
with those who have suffered racism we
48:50
stand with them
48:52
as allies that only takes a second
48:56
it what you're saying reminds me what
48:58
what i'd love to see from
49:00
those white pastors and church leaders
49:02
who who have that experience that say
49:03
and i know some of these guys i've
49:05
talked to them who say
49:06
i don't have any black friends like i i
49:08
don't know any black pastors in this
49:10
city
49:11
and they feel completely paralyzed by
49:14
that
49:15
in that inadequacy in what i want to see
49:18
from them in
49:20
there's if there's any of you guys
49:21
listening who have that experience
49:24
here's just what i what i submit to you
49:26
can you just
49:28
be vulnerable in front of your
49:29
congregation and say that
49:32
could you just be honest and vulnerable
49:34
enough to
49:35
like henry nouwen and the wounded healer
49:37
would would advocate for
49:39
your experience is your congregation's
49:41
experience and if you're feeling
49:42
inadequate if you're feeling fearful if
49:44
you're feeling
49:45
like you don't have what it takes you
49:47
don't know all the stuff
49:49
just start the conversation right there
49:52
and then go on from there that's really
49:55
not hard and it's going to resonate with
49:57
your parishioners it's going to resonate
49:59
with the church
50:00
and it's going to start from a really
50:01
beautiful humble place
50:03
that's a good start that's a good piece
50:06
of advice pastor
50:11
so i'm curious where
50:15
you see the church going in terms of
50:18
racial justice social justice in general
50:21
equality
50:22
making a difference in the the place
50:24
where it's planted
50:25
it it seems to me like if something
50:28
drastic doesn't change
50:29
soon the american church will just stop
50:32
existing
50:33
at least as we've known it and i'm not
50:35
sure i think that's a bad thing
50:38
but i know i've talked to a lot of
50:39
people my age and i talked to my
50:40
students about this kind of stuff who
50:42
are
50:42
mostly gen z and they're just simply
50:46
uninterested
50:47
in an expression of church that's not
50:50
socially equitable and it's not
50:52
explicitly aimed at that and it's not
50:54
just racial justice they're interested
50:55
in
50:56
they're interested in gender justice and
50:58
trans justice and
50:59
i mean all of it and a church that is
51:02
that is even still trying to work that
51:04
out just
51:06
isn't going to capture them isn't going
51:07
to capture their attention they've
51:09
already left it behind
51:11
and i'm curious
51:14
what you think the future i guess of the
51:16
american church looks like or if you're
51:18
hesitant to predict the future what
51:20
would you like to see
51:21
happen in the next say 50 to 100 years
51:26
in the american church and let me follow
51:27
up on that lisa
51:29
phyllis tickle said that every 500 years
51:32
there's a major reformation in the
51:34
church a
51:34
major overhaul and transformation in the
51:36
church and you can look back to
51:38
the 500 when the roman empire was
51:41
was fell and then you can look to 1 000
51:44
when there was a great schism and then
51:45
you can look to the 1500 when there was
51:47
the
51:47
reformation and now basically she says
51:50
or said because she's not alive anymore
51:52
we're due like reformation is going to
51:55
happen
51:56
we just don't know how and where and
51:57
when and what that looks like so
51:59
based on both my own kyle's questions
52:01
what do you see
52:02
because i think you have a pretty high
52:04
vantage point when you look at the
52:05
church
52:06
i see a church that is evangelized
52:10
back to god i see a church
52:13
that is is
52:17
being purged from its casual attitude
52:20
towards sin and the fear of the lord
52:23
restored
52:24
back to her i see a church that is
52:28
albeit clumsily but moving toward
52:31
practical unity i see
52:34
micro church with macro impact
52:39
i see a resurgence of
52:42
spiritual formation of returning to the
52:45
ancient paths as it were
52:47
a resurgence of spiritual formation that
52:49
empowers
52:51
individuals to walk in the fullness of
52:54
their calling
52:55
i think that there is a level of
52:57
appropriateness
52:58
that the alarm is being assounded by
53:01
youtube
53:01
prophesiers with apocalyptic undertones
53:06
i think that is appropriate but i think
53:08
it's appropriate
53:09
in an attempt to have a wake-up call
53:12
for the church not um to herald her
53:16
demise
53:17
god is a recycler he is a leverager
53:22
he uh he is it it's very difficult for
53:26
him to turn his back
53:28
on the church even in times like this
53:32
when covet hit as when google
53:35
research started documenting data on
53:40
on what searches uh were high and low
53:44
uh when coveted hit the google
53:47
research of the word prayer was at an
53:50
all-time high
53:51
from from the time they had started
53:54
gathering data
53:56
all-time high and the
53:59
that dovetailed into people reaching out
54:02
to
54:03
prayer movements like our own but
54:05
reaching out to parachurch movements
54:07
from
54:07
billy graham all the way down to small
54:10
organizations led by grandmas and
54:13
grandpas who are willing to pick up the
54:15
phone or respond to somebody reaching
54:17
out online
54:18
that has resulted in a pronounced amount
54:22
of
54:22
evangelism of salvation their salvations
54:26
taking place even in the epicenters of
54:28
where
54:28
the some of the violence is that in this
54:31
time that
54:32
that seemed to peril the the downtrend
54:36
of the church prayer has been all
54:38
at an all-time high evangelism although
54:41
these aren't the things that feed that
54:43
fill the news feed
54:44
evangelism has had a great resurgence
54:47
that that in this time there has been
54:50
even if you
54:51
disagree with the apocalyptic undertones
54:54
there has been a unified message of a
54:57
call to the church
54:58
to repent to face the places of
55:01
mismanagement
55:03
of our heart and of her soul and of a
55:05
representative of christ
55:07
that all throughout the body of christ
55:09
throughout many nations
55:11
there has been this clarion call for the
55:13
church to make herself ready
55:15
to face her her sins before god
55:18
to address the national sins even of
55:21
issues
55:22
of racism to repent so that the healing
55:25
of the land can come forth and a way can
55:27
be made for the second great
55:29
awakening what do i see i look upon the
55:32
landscape and
55:34
i see the word of the lord
55:37
speaking over the dry bones that they
55:39
would live
55:40
i see hope and i see an expectation
55:44
in the heart of the lord and in the
55:46
heart of so many
55:47
who are called to speak in terms of what
55:49
we see i
55:50
acknowledge the need for the apocalyptic
55:54
calling forth of the body back to christ
55:56
but what i see in terms of the purposes
55:58
of god
56:00
that we would look back at this time and
56:02
call the messiness
56:04
and the upheaval of it and say it was
56:07
worth it
56:08
for the fruit that we've gained at the
56:10
backside of it
56:11
and so i just want to encourage uh those
56:14
who are in the messiness and in the
56:16
trenches
56:17
uh to be in them with faith jesus said
56:20
man when i come back will i
56:22
will people be in faith be trusting me
56:25
to fulfill my purposes in the church or
56:27
are they gonna be so focused on the mess
56:29
that they're gonna buy into the
56:31
propaganda that this
56:32
let's just explode this whole thing it
56:35
just needs to die
56:36
and while it's true there are aspects
56:38
that need to be purged
56:40
that need to be shuffled off like
56:42
aspects of mortal coil
56:44
it is for the purpose of new life not
56:47
for god sanctioning the death
56:49
of the church i believe shall come forth
56:52
far more radiant
56:53
than when she went in that shall be
56:55
battle scarred
56:57
and that she will carry the the uh
57:00
the gravitas of having been in battle
57:03
that's on the backside of this that she
57:06
will have faced
57:08
all of those places where she behaved
57:10
polarized where she demonized
57:12
her enemies that shall have faced those
57:14
things and be prepared at the back of
57:16
this civil war
57:17
to embrace and to shake hands in a new
57:20
quality of unity
57:22
that she'll be prepared for evangelism
57:24
like she never had before
57:26
i i see great greatness
57:29
uh in in the church's future at the
57:32
backside of the hot mess
57:35
that is this season of purging
57:38
yeah i think right now
57:41
when you talk about will i find faith
57:44
jesus saying will i find faith
57:46
i need more faith right now i don't need
57:51
you know ignorant certainty or
57:54
hubris i'm just i just need some humble
57:59
simple faith and hope right now
58:03
on my worst days and my darkest days
58:05
there's a lot of them
58:07
in 2020 there's a lot of dark days but
58:10
just that
58:11
simple action of faith
58:15
believing that something better is there
58:17
beneath the surface believing
58:19
that there's something beautiful being
58:21
born out of the ugliness and mess and
58:23
cries
58:24
of the oppressed that there's something
58:26
being born out of it i have to believe
58:29
it
58:30
so lisa thank you for focusing our eyes
58:33
on
58:34
on that thank you for sharing your
58:36
experience
58:37
you're so generous with it and uh is
58:39
there any recommendations for
58:41
people to connect with whether it's 24 7
58:43
prayer
58:44
or it's books that you think would be
58:46
really really handy for people to get
58:47
their hands on to
58:49
open their imaginations a little bit to
58:50
whether it's prayer or justice
58:52
or mission um our movement believes in
58:55
the partnership
58:56
of prayer and justice that it is those
59:00
two twin pillars that work together
59:03
to produce godly fruit in the world
59:07
so we're uh we have created on the 247
59:10
prayerusa.com
59:12
website we've curated a ton of resources
59:15
to help people both engage on the prayer
59:18
side
59:19
and on the practical side to do the
59:22
churchy stuff
59:23
and to get out on the streets and do the
59:25
sweaty nitty gritty
59:27
dirty stuff 24 7 prayerusa.com
59:31
the books that we recommend we also have
59:33
a list on there of
59:34
recommended resources to educate
59:36
yourself about
59:38
issues of racial justice and
59:39
discrimination historically from the
59:41
point of our nation especially
59:43
but it's through most of the resources
59:46
are through the lens of a kingdom ethos
59:48
uh we have recommendations that people
59:51
pick up the book
59:52
like called be the bridge or jesus and
59:54
the disinherited
59:56
or a great new book that's out called
59:58
neighborliness and all of that's on the
60:00
website
60:00
uh to just start to read and educate
60:03
themselves
60:04
around these issues and and what it
60:07
looks like to
60:08
do activism through uh through a kingdom
60:11
lens
60:12
awesome can i ask what the picture next
60:14
to you is uh
60:16
it is the picture uh that represents
60:19
this thing that we've been talking about
60:21
the partnership of prayer and justice
60:24
that this person is in full regalia i
60:27
mean he's
60:28
meddled up he's even got the the hand uh
60:31
armor on because he spends a
60:35
big portion of his life in the
60:37
battlefield
60:38
but he is sent into that battlefield
60:42
from a place of intercession and so his
60:45
current posture
60:46
is a posture of intercession before the
60:48
lord and the intercession is
60:51
at one side setting his own heart
60:54
in partnership with god surrendering his
60:57
rage and his anger
60:59
submitting his zeal renouncing
61:03
just the uh the the drives of the flesh
61:07
uh in this battle and and and the other
61:10
part
61:10
is praying the prayers that pave away so
61:14
that when he's back out in the trenches
61:15
with him and his buddies
61:17
that the all of the the kingdom of
61:20
heaven and the angelic powers
61:22
are working alongside him to bring god's
61:24
will to pass as it were
61:26
on earth as in heaven thank you
61:30
that's more than that sorry could have
61:32
gone shorter but i just didn't want to
61:34
that's
61:36
awesome
61:38
well lisa coons thank you for joining us
61:39
thank you for your time and thank you
61:41
for
61:42
all that you're pouring yourself into
61:44
keep getting after it
61:45
we'll follow you thanks so much for
61:47
inviting me to be a part of this
61:49
conversation
61:50
i pray that god uses it to to bring a
61:52
rightness of priority and opposition to
61:55
the hearts of the followers of christ
61:56
who
61:57
are in some way inspired by this thanks
61:58
so much for inviting me to do it
62:09
thanks for listening we hope you enjoyed
62:11
this conversation you can find us on
62:12
social media
62:14
like and share and subscribe wherever
62:16
you get your podcasts
62:17
if you're inclined to leave a review we
62:19
read through all of those and we love
62:20
the feedback
62:21
till next time this has been a pastor
62:23
and a philosopher
62:24
walking to a bar
62:56
she's great totally yeah
62:59
i was i appreciated your you know
63:03
uh lack of
63:06
you know strong follow-up to some of her
63:08
answers because i know that you know
63:10
there are probably some some things that
63:11
she was saying where you wanted to be
63:13
like yeah but
63:14
no like she kind of makes me feel like a
63:16
kid
63:18
like when i said i'd like correction i
63:20
meant it and i feel like you look like
63:21
you looked
63:22
like i feel like i got something that's
63:24
good you looked emotional i don't really
63:27
this funny nick we'd have this running
63:28
text chain and he asked randomly the
63:30
other day
63:31
if i thought there was any difference
63:32
between a true philosopher and a true
63:34
prophet and
63:34
i didn't have a good answer but like i
63:37
don't know what the hell i think
63:38
prophecy is but
63:40
if a philosopher were to encounter an
63:42
actual one i think it would feel kind of
63:44
like i just felt
63:46
in the sense that i could make arguments
63:48
all day and nitpick some stuff but
63:52
yeah for somebody that actually hears
63:53
from god as far as i can tell
63:55
right you know for all i know it could
63:57
be all in her head it could be all in
63:58
all of our heads but
64:01
somebody that has the clout to back up
64:04
the sorts of things they're saying it's
64:06
i feel like my role is to just shut up