A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

Prayer, Activism, and Racial Justice: Interview with Lisa Koons

November 03, 2020 Randy Knie, Kyle Whitaker Season 1 Episode 9
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Prayer, Activism, and Racial Justice: Interview with Lisa Koons
Chapters
A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar
Prayer, Activism, and Racial Justice: Interview with Lisa Koons
Nov 03, 2020 Season 1 Episode 9
Randy Knie, Kyle Whitaker

In this episode we talk with Lisa Koons, who is the national director of 24-7 Prayer USA. Our conversation covers the role of prayer in social justice, why more American Christians aren't focused on racial justice, how anger fits into the Christian response to injustice, and more. Lisa has a powerful, healing presence, and we encourage you to meditate on her words here.

The beer featured in this episode is La Ruche (Blend #3) by Side Project Brewing.

If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.

The artwork for this episode is "Finger of Steel" by Mathieu Cesar. The video mentioned is "How Can We Win" by Kimberly Jones (contains explicit language).

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode we talk with Lisa Koons, who is the national director of 24-7 Prayer USA. Our conversation covers the role of prayer in social justice, why more American Christians aren't focused on racial justice, how anger fits into the Christian response to injustice, and more. Lisa has a powerful, healing presence, and we encourage you to meditate on her words here.

The beer featured in this episode is La Ruche (Blend #3) by Side Project Brewing.

If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.

The artwork for this episode is "Finger of Steel" by Mathieu Cesar. The video mentioned is "How Can We Win" by Kimberly Jones (contains explicit language).

00:14

welcome to

00:14

a pastor and a philosopher walk into a

00:16

bar the podcast where we mix a sometimes

00:19

weird but always delicious cocktail of

00:21

theology

00:22

philosophy and spirituality

00:29

welcome to a pastor and philosopher

00:30

walking to a bar

00:32

we're really excited to talk to a new

00:34

guest today

00:35

about issues related to racial justice

00:38

and the church and oh just all sorts of

00:42

stuff i don't even feel like i can sum

00:43

it up

00:44

yeah yeah no she's she's a powerful

00:46

woman her name's lisa coons

00:47

she is the national director of 24 7

00:51

prayer in the usa

00:52

and my church full disclosure is a part

00:54

of the 24 7 prayer

00:56

movement and uh i'm just there's a few

00:59

people i respect more than lisa [ __ ] so

01:01

i'm

01:02

super excited to share her with you um

01:04

because i think you're gonna

01:05

you're gonna enjoy it so what are we

01:07

drinking today we are in a bar after

01:09

all a proverbial bar sure metaphorical

01:11

bar uh so

01:12

this one is it's a saison so

01:15

a naturally fermented barrel-aged saison

01:18

i think with honey in it

01:20

so this one's called larouche and it's

01:21

from side project brewery in st

01:24

louis missouri so everything side

01:26

project does is

01:27

using like local yeast strains and stuff

01:29

like that and

01:30

and barrel aging in missouri oak and

01:32

whatever they should why wouldn't you do

01:34

that yeah why not and they they have a

01:36

really stellar

01:37

barrel aged stout program that's

01:39

probably the most hyped beer in the

01:40

country

01:42

and uh i will never get my hands on

01:44

everything unfortunately but

01:46

it's the most hyped in in like beer geek

01:49

circles right yeah yeah because i've

01:50

never heard of side project

01:51

yeah in serious beer nerd circles that

01:54

are willing to spend thousands of

01:55

dollars for beer

01:57

not me yeah they're they're they're

01:59

where it's at

02:00

uh and in part you know part of that is

02:02

hype and you know

02:03

it gets crazy because everybody wants it

02:05

and you can't get it and then

02:06

the value runs away but i mean it's it's

02:09

based on

02:10

actual quality so i've had a couple of

02:12

these super crazy rare things and they

02:14

really are amazing

02:15

uh but what we have here is a little

02:16

more accessible i was able to just drive

02:18

up and pick it up when i was in st

02:20

louis last so i hope you guys enjoy it

02:23

awesome

02:25

it's like smelling a flower just

02:29

just the aroma to start i will say

02:31

cezanne is not my like go-to style

02:33

yeah me neither um but this this is

02:35

awesome that because

02:36

most saisons i've had have just been

02:38

kind of dull kind of uninteresting

02:40

kind of just a simple ale with not much

02:43

going on

02:44

but this is really complex this has some

02:46

some fruit characteristics and a little

02:47

bit of funk in it that i like from the

02:49

from the east

02:50

yep now i know you're more enthusiastic

02:52

enthusiast than experts so i'm going to

02:54

ask a question that you may or may not

02:55

know but

02:56

what's the difference between a sour and

02:58

a saison apparently there's a debate

02:59

about this

03:00

so a lot of saisons end up being kind of

03:02

sour which this is

03:04

i think even there's like labeling

03:06

debate like some things that maybe

03:08

aren't necessarily traditionally saison

03:11

still get that on the label and then

03:12

they end up tasting kind of funky

03:14

i'm i'm really not sure it sounds like

03:15

we'll need to dedicate a full episode at

03:17

some point

03:18

i got the sense from googling it earlier

03:21

today

03:21

that we could if we wanted to no fear we

03:24

won't

03:25

do that so you know a traditional saison

03:27

probably wouldn't

03:28

taste very sour but a lot of these more

03:31

um

03:32

you know naturally fermented ones tend

03:33

to yeah this is remarkable i mean i love

03:36

the

03:36

it's kind of a little bit cloudy so

03:38

maybe unfiltered a little bit yeah but

03:40

it's also bottle condition so everything

03:42

they do is bottle condition okay

03:44

and it's bright it's um

03:47

i i get tart apples i get that sour

03:51

finish

03:51

on the tongue which isn't too much

03:53

usually for me sours are too much i

03:55

i can't i could drink a half of one and

03:57

that's it this isn't this is refreshing

03:59

this is a

04:00

a summer beer yeah very citrusy like

04:03

the lemon and orange flavors are yeah

04:05

like as the novice in the room

04:07

that's what i get right away yeah and

04:09

they're most of their stuff ages really

04:11

well too that's the great thing about

04:12

bottle conditioning is you can stick it

04:14

in your cellar and

04:15

open it two years later and it's even

04:18

different more changing

04:19

yeah yeah for sure by seller do you mean

04:21

like

04:22

beer seller or do you mean southern

04:24

style seller

04:25

it's funny cellaring is now just a term

04:28

for storing beer

04:29

so i've i have seen people in the beer

04:32

community that have actual like going to

04:33

their basement

04:34

cellars but usually just means like i

04:36

have a wine fridge

04:37

that i keep at 50 degrees and that's my

04:39

quote-unquote seller but

04:41

it just means you can store it and it

04:43

continues to change and

04:45

get more interesting as it gets older i

04:47

love pretension

04:50

yeah so side project well done larouche

04:54

good stuff yeah and if you guys hear

04:55

this and want to send me a bottle of

04:56

warning stouts i would not say no to

04:58

that how about that

04:59

we'll review it i'll bet we'll like it

05:02

even though it's barrel aged

05:06

well i'm super excited to talk to my

05:08

friend lisa coons lisa is the

05:10

national director of 24 7 prayer usa and

05:14

lisa is going to tell us what that means

05:15

but lisa is an

05:17

amazing and powerful woman who just

05:20

meeting her and being in her presence

05:22

and hearing her tell stories

05:24

will give you i've got the chills so so

05:27

lisa welcome thanks for being here

05:28

oh it's wonderful to spend some time

05:32

with

05:32

you guys talking about things that

05:34

matter to the heart of god i'm really

05:36

glad to be here

05:37

awesome so good lisa i mentioned that

05:39

you're the

05:40

national director of 24 7 prayer can you

05:43

tell us what that means

05:44

sure 24 7 prayer is a international

05:48

interdenominational movement

05:50

that's all about reviving the church and

05:52

rewiring

05:54

the culture we help people encounter god

05:57

and engage with the needs of the world

05:59

through night and day prayer

06:00

wildly engaging prayer spaces and prayer

06:03

resources

06:04

through missional communities and in

06:06

christ-centered social action to

06:08

champion the cause of the marginalized

06:10

and the poor

06:11

in short we serve as a catalyst for

06:13

movements of prayer

06:15

mission and justice wow

06:18

love it yeah i mean we could take that

06:20

apart bit by bit and

06:22

have an episode right there so it's not

06:23

just sitting around praying but prayer

06:25

is is how we and who how we are

06:28

oriented it is at the heart of

06:30

everything we do

06:32

our movement is known as a prayer

06:35

movement and a ton of our resources go

06:38

in that direction

06:39

because it's prayer that births mission

06:41

and justice

06:42

so as i as i follow you on social media

06:46

lisa and know you if i didn't know any

06:49

better i would think that you might be

06:50

a director of kind of an activist

06:53

organization

06:54

and you might be an activist rather than

06:56

actually a director of a prayer movement

06:58

can you speak to why that is i know it's

07:01

not accidental but

07:02

speak to that dynamic well my activism

07:06

is it's born not

07:09

from a great passion

07:12

regarding oh say human trafficking or

07:15

it's not born primarily from allegiance

07:18

to people of color

07:19

of whom i feel an affinity with because

07:21

i am one it's actually born from

07:23

allegiance to

07:25

an interaction with christ you know he

07:27

sent me to use my platform of influence

07:29

to convey his heart

07:31

for issues of justice because of his

07:33

great love for people who are

07:34

hurt by unconfronted injustice in the

07:37

world

07:38

it's friendship with god or prayer that

07:40

begats care for what god cares about

07:43

scripture says he works in us to will

07:45

and to do his good pleasure

07:47

interaction with god is a catalyst for

07:49

all manner of holy living all manner of

07:52

mission

07:52

and justice and work in the world

07:55

there's another

07:56

verse that talks about how we behold him

07:58

as we behold him we become like him

08:01

this idea that that in communion and the

08:04

communication

08:05

that hosts the beholding of god our

08:08

heart becomes like his the things we

08:10

care about

08:11

match the things that he cares about and

08:14

we're actually commanded

08:15

to be about our father's business

08:17

especially with regard to the

08:19

marginalized

08:20

oppressed and voiceless and so for me

08:23

it's difficult to

08:25

be continually uh gazing on and

08:28

interacting with god

08:30

and not feel a growing heart within me

08:33

to uh to live as a holy activist in this

08:36

world

08:37

so i had a question in the outline here

08:39

that i'm just going to skip to because

08:40

it seems relevant

08:41

um about about about the function of

08:44

prayer

08:45

and in in that video that i watched the

08:47

interview you did on youtube

08:49

you talk about several things that

08:50

really caught my attention

08:52

and one of those things is systemic

08:54

racism and

08:56

as the leader of a prayer movement what

08:59

does

09:00

what what do you i guess what do you and

09:01

what does 24 7 have to offer

09:04

to help dismantle a problem so vast as

09:07

that

09:08

i know that's a huge question for a long

09:11

time but

09:12

because so given what you just said you

09:14

know i can think of a lot of

09:16

more conservative christian friends who

09:18

spend a lot of time praying

09:19

but all the social activism you do would

09:22

not be something they're interested in

09:24

so the spirit of god does not lead them

09:25

in prayer to that kind of activism

09:28

uh so yeah as the leader of a prayer

09:30

organization how do you see your role in

09:32

combating

09:33

systemic injustice prayer

09:36

is the communion and the communication

09:41

between god and ourselves

09:44

it's the primary conduit for our

09:46

friendship

09:47

with god it hosts all of our

09:51

interior interaction it hosts

09:54

all of the dialogue that we have with

09:56

him

09:57

it hosts all of the issues on our hearts

10:01

it hosts the primary context

10:04

of our friendship which is why prayer is

10:06

so

10:07

powerful you have to keep in mind that

10:10

when god before

10:11

god pushed play and created humanity

10:15

he had this this angst this desire in

10:18

his heart

10:19

although surrounded by perfection this

10:21

desire in his heart

10:23

which ultimately uh resulted in you and

10:26

i

10:26

being born this desire for interaction

10:29

and communion and communication

10:31

imperfect people set in an imperfect

10:34

environment

10:35

who would invite this perfect god into

10:37

our imperfect

10:38

lives to have relationship and also to

10:42

partner with god to do great things in

10:44

our world

10:45

and that's why i defies prayer as

10:46

communion and communication

10:49

as a conduit for our friendship with god

10:51

and also as a conduit for partnership

10:53

with god to express on earth

10:56

as it is in heaven you know prayer is

11:00

profoundly powerful i don't even know if

11:01

the church is aware of how powerful it

11:04

is

11:04

but i'll offer you this quote the

11:06

potency of prayer

11:08

has to subdue the strength of fire it

11:10

has bridled the rage of lions

11:13

extinguished wars appeased the elements

11:17

expelled demons burst the chains of

11:20

death

11:20

it has rescued cities from destruction

11:23

stayed the sun in its course

11:25

and arrested the progress of the

11:27

thunderbolt

11:29

prayer is as it relates to partnering

11:31

with god in our world

11:33

is one of the primary tools that we're

11:35

meant to use

11:36

to bring transformation in our corner of

11:39

the world or somewhere

11:41

on the other side of the world i can't

11:43

speak for

11:44

what prayer looks like for everyone but

11:47

i know for this particular

11:48

prayer movement that it encompasses both

11:51

the personal

11:53

and the public both our personal

11:55

relationship with god

11:57

and our partnership with god to do good

11:59

in the world prayer

12:00

is what births the revivals that we tell

12:04

our sons and daughters to make them

12:05

strong prayer

12:07

movement birth descending movement when

12:09

god

12:10

when jesus said that the laborers are

12:13

few in the harvest is plenteous

12:15

his first his first command wasn't to

12:18

go but rather he commanded that we would

12:21

pray

12:22

that the prayer movement is meant to

12:24

birth the sending

12:25

movement the prayer birth mission

12:27

movement it

12:28

births justice that prayer has the

12:30

ability

12:32

to do things in the spirit that cannot

12:35

be done

12:35

in the natural to pave the way for

12:38

things to be done in the natural

12:39

that without it a way would not be paved

12:42

so we're very big on prayer in terms of

12:45

personal relationship

12:47

and world transformation around here

12:51

love it you just went in this beautiful

12:54

exposition of prayer and

12:56

many and i'll just say white american

12:58

christians white particularly white

12:59

evangelical christians have said that

13:01

historically and currently racism is

13:03

purely a spiritual problem it's a

13:04

problem of the heart right

13:06

and the only thing that we're called to

13:09

focus on

13:10

is praying for people to change their

13:12

hearts now

13:13

hearing someone may be listening and

13:15

hearing you go on this

13:17

you know really wonderful rant about the

13:18

power of prayer might expect you to say

13:20

something like that would you say that

13:22

would you agree with that

13:23

what are your thoughts on that idea that

13:25

racism is just a problem of the heart we

13:27

need to change people's hearts

13:28

we don't have to worry about laws and

13:30

conditions and all that

13:32

i believe that god invites us to address

13:34

the issue of racism

13:36

really all issues of injustice from both

13:39

sides

13:40

and not either or i think that it is

13:43

a just as much a travesty to believe

13:46

that the body of christ is called to do

13:49

justice

13:50

without being anchored in the

13:52

extraordinary call

13:54

to preach and to pray for the changing

13:56

of hearts

13:58

and so i don't view it as an either or

14:00

you know we're called to preach to the

14:02

thirsty and the naked

14:03

but we're also called to give them water

14:05

and clothing

14:06

while we do so we're called to pray and

14:09

preach for heart change

14:10

while simultaneously embodying what

14:13

heart change

14:14

looks like through acts of justice

14:16

compassion

14:17

mercy and love justice and mercy are a

14:20

demonstration

14:21

of the gospel at work in our lives

14:24

the good samaritan was applauded for

14:26

embodying

14:27

the second commandment in that that that

14:30

more than

14:31

preaching about it embodying of it

14:34

is what is absolutely essential to the

14:36

integrity

14:37

of the gospel that we gather around the

14:41

determination between

14:42

sheep and goat was determined by actual

14:45

works of justice

14:46

and mercy and love and action but the

14:49

reality is

14:50

that we don't do justice to change

14:53

people's hearts

14:54

we do it because our hearts have been

14:56

changed and the love of god compels us

15:00

that's good so

15:03

when i i know that when george floyd was

15:06

murdered

15:07

you and some friends from 24 7

15:10

basically just bought tickets and flew

15:13

straight to minneapolis

15:14

and were on the ground for i don't know

15:16

how long were you there for

15:17

lisa a couple of days a couple of days

15:20

can you tell us about what minneapolis

15:21

was like

15:22

in those days after george floyd was

15:24

murdered and you were right in the

15:25

middle

15:26

of it how was that um

15:29

minneapolis was

15:33

in uproar at the

15:36

epicenter of where that boy george died

15:40

was

15:40

surrounded by crowds of all kinds

15:44

with the agendas of all kinds

15:48

but the over arching theme

15:52

even though there was visual destruction

15:55

and ruin the overarching theme in the

15:58

days that we were there

16:00

were themes of lament were things

16:03

of of anger and grief

16:07

of confusion and a sense

16:10

of of sort of the last straw

16:15

this idea that we may not do it white we

16:19

may not do it well

16:20

we may not do it in such a way that

16:23

doesn't

16:23

uh bring upon us censure but there's

16:26

this idea that we must

16:27

take to the streets and there was during

16:31

the time that i was there

16:33

there was a surprising absence of

16:36

the presence of the church in that space

16:40

which is shocking and and

16:43

troubling because the church is

16:48

for better or for worse called to be the

16:50

light

16:51

of the world the salt of the earth

16:55

the influencer toward righteousness

16:59

that she should be at home in places of

17:02

great darkness and great brokenness

17:04

and upheaval that she should sense a

17:06

command and a call

17:07

to stand in those places and change the

17:10

trajectory

17:11

of it toward the kingdom of heaven and

17:13

toward fruitfulness

17:15

and and a rightness to bring a rightness

17:17

to it

17:18

and so i'm i'm bemoaned the absence of

17:21

the

17:21

of a full measure of the presence of the

17:23

church but

17:25

followers of crisis individuals were

17:27

present

17:28

and they were doing um what they could

17:31

in ways that they could

17:33

and so you saw people offering free

17:35

prayer or or free hugs or

17:37

offering free listening or holding up

17:40

signs that

17:41

were scripture verses expressing god's

17:44

heart for justice

17:45

trying to interject that god is not

17:49

far off from this but rather right in

17:52

the middle of this

17:55

so interesting that vacancy of the

17:57

church that you perceived

17:58

i'm one that makes me think of how in

18:01

milwaukee we've had in the past

18:03

about five years two civil rights and

18:06

racial uprisings

18:07

obviously this whole summer has been

18:09

demonstrating

18:10

and marching and protesting in milwaukee

18:13

you know just a city that needs a lot of

18:16

racial

18:17

healing and all that several years ago

18:21

a young man named seville smith was

18:22

murdered by uh was killed by

18:24

a police officer in an inner city

18:27

neighborhood in milwaukee and there was

18:28

an uprising though there was some

18:30

minor looting and rioting that happened

18:32

well significant actually

18:34

and the church showed up we got together

18:36

i got together with other pastors

18:38

strategize how do we do this and i would

18:41

say unfortunately

18:42

we came in with like there was a sign of

18:45

no jesus no peace no jesus no peace kind

18:47

of deal or whatever

18:48

and it was very obviously the church

18:50

quote unquote showing up

18:52

and we got rebuked by some activists

18:55

there was one activist in particular who

18:58

saw us come in it was overwhelming we

19:00

came into the park where all the

19:01

demonstrations were happening

19:02

and after a while he just stood up and

19:04

said where have you been

19:06

like you want to come in here and

19:08

sprinkle some jesus on us and pretend

19:09

that you're doing your duty

19:11

but where have you been when our youth

19:13

need places to find refuge where have

19:15

you been

19:16

when when this has been happening

19:19

non-stop

19:20

and we haven't seen the church now

19:21

there's a crisis and you guys show up

19:22

and you think that you're going to try

19:23

to save the day

19:24

and we actually it was beautiful we had

19:26

a moment of repentance of pastors saying

19:28

you're right

19:29

you're right and we repent would you

19:31

forget you know we want to listen we're

19:32

here now to listen

19:33

and we're going to do this differently

19:34

we're going to come back every night for

19:36

as long as it takes to be with you and

19:37

to listen

19:38

so that was my first taste of it and i

19:41

was like oh i don't want to do that

19:42

again

19:43

so this time we didn't have any

19:46

official churchy prayer like

19:49

let's gather here and let's be the

19:50

church but we just told people to go go

19:52

be in the community

19:54

go go to marches go to protests and you

19:56

know particularly peaceful ones

19:58

and be a presence there and be let's not

20:01

try to tell the community what to think

20:03

let's actually try to

20:04

be incarnational and just march

20:06

alongside

20:07

our milwaukee brothers and sisters so it

20:10

gets me thinking about

20:13

there's no perfect way to do it right

20:15

but

20:17

i think the church showing up looks

20:19

different than many of us

20:20

think it might look right it looks

20:23

perhaps more humble and incarnational in

20:25

listening

20:26

more than speaking first and trying to

20:27

evangel evangelize to everyone

20:29

do you agree or disagree well i want to

20:32

take your point a little bit further

20:35

the church present is a powerful thing

20:40

without signs and jesus t-shirt

20:44

the church itself present is in its own

20:47

right

20:48

powerful in its own right a present

20:50

church

20:51

praying is in its own right powerful

20:54

enough

20:55

the church present to grieve with and

20:58

lament with

20:59

is more powerful than a church present

21:02

in that context trying to evangelize

21:04

there but what what i want to address is

21:07

something you mentioned you sort of got

21:09

together and prayed

21:11

you know it's a funny thing that

21:15

one size does not fit all

21:18

that if if a church united wants to

21:22

present

21:22

a presence in this type of context one

21:25

of the most profound things they can do

21:28

is pray and ask for the wisdom of the

21:30

lord the discernment of the lord

21:32

sometimes the lord will send the church

21:34

out with

21:35

placards and boldness with an

21:38

evangelistic stand

21:40

and god's grace and power will be

21:42

present with them and an anointing to

21:44

break yolks in that context

21:46

and a grace to handle the backlash

21:49

sometimes

21:50

they will be sent into a context to

21:53

minister to sometimes they will be set

21:56

to serve

21:57

water bottles and bread and these type

21:59

of tea sometimes they'll be set

22:01

in full regalia in colors and

22:04

in in the the full ministry regalia sent

22:08

out in front

22:09

of protest singing songs and hymns

22:13

i like the idea of a church that wants

22:15

to be present

22:17

in some form actually taking a little

22:20

time to pray and get the counsel of the

22:23

lord

22:23

and if the lord should not choose not to

22:26

speak a clear word

22:27

than to show up uh not with and

22:31

not leading with an agenda but to lead

22:35

with presence

22:36

as it were yep that's good

22:40

so lisa we we are encountering this as

22:43

is who we are and there's nothing wrong

22:45

with that but as white males

22:47

you are engaging with this as a as an

22:50

african-american woman

22:51

and you're engaging with this as a

22:53

mother of a young black man

22:55

can you tell us can you just bring us

22:58

into your

22:59

eyes and your heart and how you see this

23:03

and what what's your perspective in this

23:06

for a long long long

23:10

time living with

23:14

regular encounters of macro and micro

23:18

uh racial aggression living in a in a

23:22

society that is

23:24

oriented toward whiteness

23:27

for a long time except among

23:31

the true activists and organizations

23:34

for a long time i and so many of my

23:37

friends

23:38

we took the posture uh to be in america

23:41

you keep your head down

23:43

you adapt you assimilate you keep going

23:47

you don't put take a bullhorn to your

23:50

mouth and

23:51

and shout and rattle around your common

23:54

experiences

23:55

just keep your head down and keep going

23:58

and we did

23:59

for a long long long long time

24:02

but the these issues of racism that kept

24:06

boiling up onto the surface we were

24:08

confronted by them not because racism

24:11

had increased

24:12

but because it was beginning to be

24:14

filmed

24:15

and then put back in this public setting

24:18

and we and everyone around the world

24:20

were steadily confronted by

24:23

these realities making it more difficult

24:26

and more difficult to maintain that

24:28

trajectory of

24:29

keep your head down adapt assimilate

24:33

you know focus on what you're given to

24:34

focus on we

24:36

coveted hit and and we barely

24:40

had recovered from the death of ahmad

24:43

arbury

24:45

where all we could do was as individuals

24:47

and families and

24:49

small groups in lesser numbers than 10

24:51

was lace up our gym shoes and run

24:54

through our neighborhoods when just

24:56

shortly after

24:57

the word came that george he died and it

25:00

felt

25:01

but some people describe it as the last

25:03

straw

25:05

but it felt his death felt like such a

25:08

catalyst

25:09

to take to the streets that irrespective

25:11

of covet

25:12

that there was just a need to go public

25:15

to

25:16

to exchange the trajectory of keep your

25:19

head down adapt and assimilate

25:21

and go public and so just as an

25:23

african-american

25:24

woman it has been beautiful

25:28

and terrible you know it has been

25:30

beautiful to

25:31

uh to see our stories and our lived

25:36

experiences

25:37

now being heralded and bullhorned it has

25:40

been

25:41

terrible as we share the stories that we

25:44

had long

25:44

tucked away as they piled up to

25:48

begin to put them out there and

25:50

encounter the kind of

25:51

backlash and deflection and accusations

25:55

or worse apathy um as a result

25:58

of telling what it's like to be black in

26:01

america

26:02

but i cannot i can scarcely blame

26:06

a disbelief i can scarcely blame

26:10

us being referred to as liars or

26:12

exaggerating

26:13

or making much of nothing uh if you were

26:17

to

26:18

say take a look at the stats of how many

26:21

blacks are killed by police

26:23

it is an unimpressive number but if you

26:25

would take the collective

26:27

stories of the blacks in any given

26:30

neighborhood

26:30

near you much less across a nation

26:34

the collective stories that we would

26:36

tell would be hard to

26:38

ignore hard to deny that's

26:41

our reality and so it has been

26:44

a wonderful season and a terrible hard

26:48

season but this is the season

26:52

for the stories to emerge for the truths

26:55

to be told

26:56

and even for there to be discernment and

26:58

conversations

27:00

in terms of what is true and what isn't

27:03

this is the season i think that god is

27:05

using as a catalyst

27:07

to help not just the united states but

27:09

the world at large as other nations

27:11

grapple with the same

27:12

issue to help them have conversations to

27:15

help them

27:16

figure out whether or not they want to

27:18

address

27:19

this issue that is embedded in every

27:22

culture that we know of

27:23

but that is catalyst around the idea of

27:26

racism itself

27:28

so it's been hard and wonderful as a

27:31

mother

27:32

it is especially tenuous because i don't

27:35

know any black mother that hasn't had to

27:37

have the talk

27:38

with their black sons especially the

27:40

talk about why they can't behave

27:43

in public uh in certain ways that wipe

27:45

their white friends can

27:47

why to give them the talk about why they

27:50

have to follow these six steps if

27:52

they're ever pulled over

27:54

by the police and why that's necessary

27:57

to explain to them that the goal is to

27:59

get home

27:59

alive to convey to them that while for

28:02

their white friends a police stop is an

28:04

inconvenience

28:05

but if you are a black young man it

28:07

could be potentially legal

28:09

to have a talk with them that makes them

28:11

move about

28:12

in the world mindful of the the culture

28:15

and the reality that they live in

28:17

that's that's that's the hard part right

28:19

there

28:22

so let me ask you one follow-up question

28:24

before i let kyle jump in

28:26

i've seen you interact with you you've

28:29

been

28:30

tenacious in in not letting people

28:32

ignore

28:33

this racial movement in america

28:36

this summer and i've watched and i've

28:38

seen you interact with

28:40

i'll just say what it is racist people

28:42

and particularly

28:44

people who have some racism within them

28:45

in the church and who have

28:48

downright rejected your perspective

28:50

downright rejected your experience

28:52

downright rejected and explained away

28:56

and you have brought such patience

28:59

such love but also such strength not

29:03

letting people

29:03

off the hook and it's just been so

29:06

impressive to me

29:07

how do you do it i i would i've i've

29:09

watched your posts and watched

29:11

and listened to you talk so much and

29:14

there's been numerous times where i'm

29:15

like

29:16

i would have i would have lost it i

29:18

don't know how you do it and

29:19

it's not just you i think it's black

29:21

people in general i don't

29:23

i just don't know like i've i've been

29:26

speaking up an at

29:27

probably a a heightened amount for a

29:29

white pastor

29:30

because i've made the decision to do so

29:32

and i today had a rough

29:34

day because i've i've come in contact

29:37

with some rejection

29:38

and it's it was rough it changed my

29:40

whole day i was

29:42

i was depressed today and then i thought

29:44

of you and then i thought of my black

29:46

pastor friends

29:47

and it just humbled me i have no idea

29:50

how you can take that amount of

29:51

rejection

29:52

and hatred and come back with humility

29:55

patience

29:56

strength and love

30:01

i attribute it to the grace of god at

30:04

work

30:06

you know the same life that was resident

30:09

in jesus christ the the head of the

30:12

church the savior of the world

30:14

is the same life i'm told that's

30:16

resident in me

30:18

come on and the same grace that he had

30:21

to be

30:22

in volatile situations and keep his cool

30:26

is the same grace and life of god at

30:29

work

30:30

in me the ethos of the kingdom of heaven

30:33

that he lived by is the same ethos of

30:36

the kingdom of heaven

30:37

that i live by and i certainly don't get

30:40

it perfect

30:40

every time but there is a grace to be

30:44

in the middle of a fight and not fight

30:46

malice with

30:47

with malice not fight divisiveness with

30:50

divisiveness

30:52

not to not be allowed to lash out

30:54

irrationally or to ven

30:56

my passions because there's an

30:58

understanding that how

31:00

we get from a to z is just as important

31:03

as that we get from a to z

31:05

and that if we as the body of christ

31:07

aren't prepared to get from a to z

31:10

in a way that is christ-like and loving

31:13

even of those who are behaving like our

31:15

enemies

31:16

then i'm not sure we deserve the z that

31:19

we get to

31:20

if we violate our our witness

31:24

if we violate embodying the nature of

31:26

god

31:27

in the midst of these messy fights if we

31:31

set that down to leverage our focus on

31:34

winning the argument and we're forsaking

31:37

the winning of hearts

31:38

then we're shooting ourselves in the

31:40

foot it's the grace of god at work it

31:42

means the same grace

31:44

that exercises patience toward my inner

31:46

enemy

31:47

is the same grace that gives me at times

31:50

an okay to flip over tables

31:52

in a social media commentary that that

31:55

that it can hold both and still be

31:58

motivated by love

32:04

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storyhillbkc.com

32:41

so as a fairly liberal christian

32:45

both politically and and theologically

32:49

as i watch all these videos or actually

32:51

try to avoid watching the videos but

32:52

but since all the things happening and

32:54

see all the stuff on social media

32:56

just a confession i have been pissed

32:59

since march

33:00

just like just rage like yesterday i sat

33:03

in my office and just cried and rage

33:06

at some stuff i'd seen and

33:09

when i think about what i want to do

33:10

about that my mind does not go to

33:14

anything christian if i'm honest

33:17

there's a an activist named

33:20

um i believe her name is

33:23

kimberly jones and she had a viral video

33:25

that went around that really

33:27

um it was really powerful it was played

33:29

on on various uh

33:31

late night shows and whatnot and got a

33:33

lot of views and

33:34

one thing she points out in there which

33:35

kind of spoke to me as a philosopher

33:38

is that you know all the complaining

33:40

that you see about

33:42

the rioting and the looting and the

33:43

burning down of the buildings and

33:44

everything

33:45

the complaining about you know you guys

33:47

should do that more peacefully

33:50

that this is actually working across

33:52

purposes with your goals

33:54

and her response to that part of her

33:57

response anyway was to point out that

33:59

the whole idea of

34:02

honoring one another's property and

34:04

honoring one another's space

34:06

is predicated on a social contract

34:09

and that the once one party to the

34:13

contract

34:14

has violated it that the other party is

34:16

no longer

34:18

bound to the terms of the contract and

34:19

this is a really old philosophical idea

34:21

and it spoke to me

34:22

in a powerful way it made a lot of sense

34:24

to me and

34:26

i feel when i see somebody burning down

34:29

a target for example

34:32

i feel closer to justice in that moment

34:34

than i do

34:36

just frankly when i hear pastors talk

34:38

about

34:39

praying together for something to change

34:41

and when i when i think about

34:43

what i want to see happen concretely and

34:45

practically and what i as an individual

34:46

can do about it and what i can encourage

34:48

my students to do about it and my

34:49

friends to do about it

34:51

i think of concrete political action

34:54

i think of voting for particular

34:55

candidates instead of other particular

34:57

candidates

34:58

and i think of contacting

35:00

representatives and suggesting specific

35:01

policies

35:02

i don't think of anything christian

35:05

acceptance so far as that stuff is also

35:06

christian

35:07

but but i don't think of churchy things

35:11

and in fact when people suggest churchy

35:13

things i i'm inclined to think of it

35:15

more as a

35:17

uh think of it more as a distraction i

35:18

guess than than anything that's going to

35:20

cause

35:21

real concrete change because i've been

35:22

at churches my whole life where people

35:24

talk about that [ __ ] and then nothing

35:26

happens and and right now we're burning

35:29

things

35:30

down and it feels like maybe something

35:31

will happen but only if we force the

35:33

issue politically

35:35

so i guess i'm asking for correction

35:39

a better way to incorporate in my mind

35:42

justice in a political sense and justice

35:45

in a christian sense

35:46

because if if the christian sense isn't

35:48

the other one that i'm not interested in

35:51

well you your anger and rage is

35:54

certainly justified

35:56

and it speaks to a sensitivity of heart

35:59

that that that sensitivity itself is

36:02

very much

36:03

like the nature of christ that it is

36:05

christlike

36:06

uh that that the father himself

36:09

expresses a lot

36:10

especially throughout the old testament

36:13

anger and

36:14

rage at injustice it just

36:17

lands blows as he openly expresses his

36:20

heart around it

36:23

but our call as followers of christ are

36:26

not to be motivated by anger and rage

36:28

they're to be motivated by love even in

36:30

our pursuit of justice

36:32

if we're motivated by anything less

36:36

than by love then you know is this idea

36:40

back from how you get from a to z

36:42

is just as important as that you get

36:45

from a to z

36:46

that if we take up the tools and the

36:48

resources of the kingdom of darkness

36:51

to try to produce the fruit of the

36:52

kingdom of heaven

36:54

then we are sort of at odds with

36:56

ourselves but i actually applaud your

36:58

anger and rage and i

36:59

applaud your heart to to see and

37:03

and to desire work on the surface of

37:06

things to bring about

37:08

change um there's there's a couple of

37:11

ways to bring about

37:12

change and in the kingdom of heaven the

37:14

ideal way

37:16

is the partnership of the church and the

37:18

practical it's the partnership

37:20

of praying and the practice of

37:24

of working toward justice on the surface

37:26

one without the other is like

37:29

giving yourself the satisfaction of

37:31

ripping a dandelion out from the ground

37:34

but not addressing the root of it that

37:36

sits below the ground then you have to

37:38

come back in another season

37:40

as this current uh trajectory has proven

37:43

out

37:43

to rip that thing out again that that

37:46

we're not

37:48

paul once rebuked the church for walking

37:50

like mere mortals

37:51

for walking like mere men for taking the

37:54

the sense of injustice and and and uh

37:58

and operating like mere men and we are

38:00

called and bound to live

38:03

from the life of god to utilize the

38:05

resources of heaven

38:07

to to move out in the world in

38:10

partnership

38:11

with god and in doing so there is a

38:14

promise that there would be more

38:15

fruitfulness more lasting fruitfulness

38:19

than just what reactionary

38:23

good works can produce

38:26

we're in this for the long haul the long

38:29

game and ultimately when the spirit of

38:32

the lord is

38:33

is at work in a group of believers in

38:36

individuals lives

38:37

ultimately it tends to look like both a

38:40

ton of prayer

38:41

and a ton of activism both a ton of time

38:45

seeking the lord and listening to his

38:47

counsel and

38:48

praying for transformation and watching

38:52

the lord

38:52

use you to be his hands and feet to go

38:55

about doing that

38:56

but i want to encourage everyone to not

38:59

make the novice mistake

39:01

of being led by their passion and their

39:04

rage as opposed to

39:05

being led by the spirit of the lord so

39:08

quick follow-up does does

39:12

racial justice from a christian

39:14

perspective

39:15

look any different to you than it would

39:17

from say a mainstream democratic party

39:19

perspective

39:24

biblical justice is biblical justice

39:28

and god can and prefers to use the

39:31

church

39:32

to embody it to execute it to to move

39:35

that ball forward

39:36

but he is not and he is not immune to

39:39

using

39:40

the secular arena to further

39:43

his goals in that example of uh

39:47

justice and compassion being enacted

39:50

in the story of the good samaritan it

39:53

was a secular guy that embodied

39:55

the work of the kingdom that represented

39:58

the uh

39:59

the ideals and the action that jesus

40:01

wanted for

40:02

the religious people that were passing

40:04

on by

40:06

and so god can work uh in both the

40:08

sacred

40:09

and the secular arena does it look

40:12

different and how it looks different

40:14

it should look different in that those

40:16

who are followers of christ

40:18

who are partnering with god to do

40:20

justice in the world

40:22

are bound by a mandate and are resourced

40:25

with the grace

40:26

to do so in a way that is committed to

40:30

love committed to christ likeness in

40:32

nature

40:33

committed to self-denial and and putting

40:36

other

40:37

first committed to non-violence

40:39

committed to

40:41

and the list can go on in terms of how

40:44

the guard rails are set around us so

40:47

that we do justice in a way that

40:49

reflects

40:50

the heart of god who is just himself

40:53

and not just in a way that gets the job

40:56

done as it were and i would say

41:00

is a follow-up to what lisa just said my

41:02

question

41:03

wouldn't be is the democratic party or

41:07

any political party

41:09

does that does god's response or does

41:10

the church's response look like that

41:12

my question would be as followers of

41:15

christ does our response as

41:17

either democrats or republicans look

41:19

like the god we find in the prophets

41:20

primarily right

41:21

does it look like does our response to

41:23

racial just injustice

41:25

look like isaiah 58 in isaiah 1 in

41:28

isaiah 10

41:29

because we're talking about personal

41:32

you know activism in advocacy

41:35

but we're also talking about isaiah 10

41:37

is talking about holding

41:39

unjust rulers to account for putting in

41:41

place oppressive and unjust laws

41:43

these are these are biblical things and

41:47

i as a christian my job isn't to say i

41:49

want

41:50

to reflect the democratic party or i

41:52

want to reflect the republican party

41:53

it's to i want to reflect

41:54

the god of the scriptures who is dead

41:56

set

41:58

against oppression injustice wherever

42:00

it's found and he's calling us as

42:01

individuals he's calling us as a people

42:03

of god

42:04

and he's calling rulers and us the

42:06

church to hold our rulers accountable

42:09

for the lack of justice that we find in

42:12

any particular

42:13

moment in time so i would i would just

42:15

kind of flip that around a little bit

42:17

the church is called to speak truth to

42:19

power

42:20

truth to power in the lives of

42:22

individuals in the lives of communities

42:25

in the political corporate all

42:28

seven mountains as it were to speak

42:31

truth

42:31

to power that is our call and our

42:34

mandate but

42:35

if we speak truth to power out of a hate

42:39

for injustice

42:40

rather than out of a love for

42:43

you you see what i'm saying if our

42:45

motivation is

42:47

is born out of rage and out of anger

42:50

and out of zeal for rightness rather

42:53

than being

42:54

born from the heart of god then i i

42:56

think that there are nuances we're going

42:58

to miss

42:58

there's a quality of forgive me for

43:00

sounding charismatic

43:02

of anointing that won't be present in

43:05

our picking up the bullhorn

43:06

in the name of god you know fruitfulness

43:09

is

43:10

is supposed to be the end game to act to

43:13

have

43:13

actual transformation actual

43:15

fruitfulness

43:16

actual impact and god promises

43:20

uh that to deliver that kind of things

43:22

for those

43:23

who are partnered with them who are

43:24

submitted to them who are not being led

43:27

by their

43:27

rage but being led by love for people

43:30

who are oppressed

43:32

and led by the spirit of the lord we can

43:34

all lift off that yoke

43:36

and and run wild into the fire and let

43:39

slip the dogs of war

43:41

and ask god to bless us as we go but

43:44

that is not the ideal way

43:46

to lead toward a long-term fruitfulness

43:50

and change and speaking of

43:54

the church being called to speak truth

43:55

to power lisa

43:57

let's just be honest the church that i

44:00

know at least

44:01

that i see is not very good at doing

44:04

just that

44:05

usually it's the opposite it's the

44:07

church cow towing

44:08

to people in power so that they can get

44:10

more power let's just

44:11

just be totally honest why do you think

44:13

that's the case you've

44:14

worked and consulted with and worked in

44:17

countless churches

44:18

i mean you you're a dire peer director

44:20

but you're also

44:21

working in churches and helping reform

44:23

staffs and

44:24

in doing all sorts of things in churches

44:27

i'm guessing your

44:30

experience has been similar to mine

44:32

whereas mostly the white church is just

44:34

deathly silent i mean there's just it's

44:37

crickets

44:38

and one of the reasons that two of the

44:39

reasons that i'm

44:41

raising my voice in ways that some

44:43

people might not like is because first

44:44

the spirit of god just addressed me

44:46

personally and powerfully and i i was

44:48

compelled to second

44:49

my black pastor friends said white

44:51

pastors where are you

44:53

where are you white pastors where's your

44:55

voice we need your voice it can't just

44:57

be

44:58

us and that compelled me as well but

45:01

there's so

45:01

much silence so much frustration from

45:04

congregants who don't

45:05

hear a thing maybe they hear a

45:06

two-minute little little

45:08

explanation or you know bible-ly thing

45:12

for why this black man was killed you

45:14

know ahmad arbury george floyd

45:16

tell me we go down the list and then you

45:18

never hear it about it again because

45:19

it's all

45:20

butterflies and crosses and jesus you

45:23

know

45:24

it's inspirational and you don't want to

45:26

rock the boat i've got all sorts of

45:27

theories but i'd like to hear

45:28

your perspectives particularly you're in

45:30

charlotte

45:32

what's been your perspective on why

45:34

white churches

45:35

and pastors haven't spoken up more well

45:38

some

45:39

churches are a part of denominations

45:43

that

45:44

that have embraced the doctrine that the

45:46

outworking of justice is simply not what

45:48

the church is called to do

45:50

and it's that conviction that keeps them

45:52

away from and

45:54

even wary of those who are in this arena

45:58

uh advocating for justice i

46:01

naturally i disagree but there's a part

46:04

of me that

46:04

admires uh the conviction of that aspect

46:08

of the body of christ

46:09

to stay true to their current

46:11

understanding

46:12

because they believe that their focus is

46:16

meant to be the sort of preaching of the

46:19

gospel only as it were the one side of

46:21

that two-sided coin we talked about

46:23

before so that's the first thing some

46:26

people really do hold to doctrines that

46:29

that uh take this kind of work as extra

46:32

biblical

46:33

not what we're called to another section

46:35

of the church is

46:36

fearful of the cost if they were to

46:39

step into this arena and and uh

46:42

and while i don't convulse condone fear

46:44

i understand

46:46

their anxiety around this there are

46:49

examples of those who have

46:50

that have been excommunicated from their

46:52

churches fired from their churches

46:54

asked to leave um attacked so

46:58

viciously that it will take um time to

47:01

repair the

47:02

the breach of trust between the pastor

47:06

and their congregates there is a cost

47:09

to this and so there's rightly fear

47:11

around it

47:12

and then other parts of the of church

47:14

leadership they simply feel ill-equipped

47:17

to step into this conversation they're

47:20

used to leading in strength

47:22

speaking in strength and this area is it

47:25

feels foreign to them they don't feel

47:26

equipped to speak

47:27

into it well and it's for all three of

47:30

these

47:31

types of leadership of church leaders

47:34

that we pray

47:35

that we pray for the first type that

47:37

doesn't believe that justice isn't out

47:38

working

47:39

we pray that god would give them a great

47:41

revelation

47:42

to see the fullness of his heart for

47:44

justice to understand that his

47:46

his throne is is established on

47:49

righteousness

47:49

and justice as they read the old

47:51

testament and the new testament

47:53

that god's heart for justice and even a

47:55

command and a mandate

47:56

for people of god to operate in that are

47:59

present in scripture

48:00

and we pray for them that that they

48:02

would not demonize

48:04

those who believe differently who

48:06

actually are fighting for justice

48:07

and for those who are feel free or feel

48:09

ill-equipped we pray for them as well

48:12

and i'm a part of a movement that has

48:14

created a ton of resources

48:16

to help them get equipped to feel

48:18

confident enough to speak into

48:20

this issue even as we encourage them to

48:22

speak into it

48:24

while they're getting better at

48:26

understanding the issue

48:28

it's something that i posted it it only

48:29

takes a second to stay

48:31

take a stand and while it it it's okay

48:33

to take time

48:34

to devise a strategy and figure out how

48:37

you're going to go about this

48:38

but it only takes a moment to take a

48:41

stand and say we side

48:43

with the oppressed with the marginalized

48:45

with those who have

48:46

who have been pushed to the side we side

48:48

with those who have suffered racism we

48:50

stand with them

48:52

as allies that only takes a second

48:56

it what you're saying reminds me what

48:58

what i'd love to see from

49:00

those white pastors and church leaders

49:02

who who have that experience that say

49:03

and i know some of these guys i've

49:05

talked to them who say

49:06

i don't have any black friends like i i

49:08

don't know any black pastors in this

49:10

city

49:11

and they feel completely paralyzed by

49:14

that

49:15

in that inadequacy in what i want to see

49:18

from them in

49:20

there's if there's any of you guys

49:21

listening who have that experience

49:24

here's just what i what i submit to you

49:26

can you just

49:28

be vulnerable in front of your

49:29

congregation and say that

49:32

could you just be honest and vulnerable

49:34

enough to

49:35

like henry nouwen and the wounded healer

49:37

would would advocate for

49:39

your experience is your congregation's

49:41

experience and if you're feeling

49:42

inadequate if you're feeling fearful if

49:44

you're feeling

49:45

like you don't have what it takes you

49:47

don't know all the stuff

49:49

just start the conversation right there

49:52

and then go on from there that's really

49:55

not hard and it's going to resonate with

49:57

your parishioners it's going to resonate

49:59

with the church

50:00

and it's going to start from a really

50:01

beautiful humble place

50:03

that's a good start that's a good piece

50:06

of advice pastor

50:11

so i'm curious where

50:15

you see the church going in terms of

50:18

racial justice social justice in general

50:21

equality

50:22

making a difference in the the place

50:24

where it's planted

50:25

it it seems to me like if something

50:28

drastic doesn't change

50:29

soon the american church will just stop

50:32

existing

50:33

at least as we've known it and i'm not

50:35

sure i think that's a bad thing

50:38

but i know i've talked to a lot of

50:39

people my age and i talked to my

50:40

students about this kind of stuff who

50:42

are

50:42

mostly gen z and they're just simply

50:46

uninterested

50:47

in an expression of church that's not

50:50

socially equitable and it's not

50:52

explicitly aimed at that and it's not

50:54

just racial justice they're interested

50:55

in

50:56

they're interested in gender justice and

50:58

trans justice and

50:59

i mean all of it and a church that is

51:02

that is even still trying to work that

51:04

out just

51:06

isn't going to capture them isn't going

51:07

to capture their attention they've

51:09

already left it behind

51:11

and i'm curious

51:14

what you think the future i guess of the

51:16

american church looks like or if you're

51:18

hesitant to predict the future what

51:20

would you like to see

51:21

happen in the next say 50 to 100 years

51:26

in the american church and let me follow

51:27

up on that lisa

51:29

phyllis tickle said that every 500 years

51:32

there's a major reformation in the

51:34

church a

51:34

major overhaul and transformation in the

51:36

church and you can look back to

51:38

the 500 when the roman empire was

51:41

was fell and then you can look to 1 000

51:44

when there was a great schism and then

51:45

you can look to the 1500 when there was

51:47

the

51:47

reformation and now basically she says

51:50

or said because she's not alive anymore

51:52

we're due like reformation is going to

51:55

happen

51:56

we just don't know how and where and

51:57

when and what that looks like so

51:59

based on both my own kyle's questions

52:01

what do you see

52:02

because i think you have a pretty high

52:04

vantage point when you look at the

52:05

church

52:06

i see a church that is evangelized

52:10

back to god i see a church

52:13

that is is

52:17

being purged from its casual attitude

52:20

towards sin and the fear of the lord

52:23

restored

52:24

back to her i see a church that is

52:28

albeit clumsily but moving toward

52:31

practical unity i see

52:34

micro church with macro impact

52:39

i see a resurgence of

52:42

spiritual formation of returning to the

52:45

ancient paths as it were

52:47

a resurgence of spiritual formation that

52:49

empowers

52:51

individuals to walk in the fullness of

52:54

their calling

52:55

i think that there is a level of

52:57

appropriateness

52:58

that the alarm is being assounded by

53:01

youtube

53:01

prophesiers with apocalyptic undertones

53:06

i think that is appropriate but i think

53:08

it's appropriate

53:09

in an attempt to have a wake-up call

53:12

for the church not um to herald her

53:16

demise

53:17

god is a recycler he is a leverager

53:22

he uh he is it it's very difficult for

53:26

him to turn his back

53:28

on the church even in times like this

53:32

when covet hit as when google

53:35

research started documenting data on

53:40

on what searches uh were high and low

53:44

uh when coveted hit the google

53:47

research of the word prayer was at an

53:50

all-time high

53:51

from from the time they had started

53:54

gathering data

53:56

all-time high and the

53:59

that dovetailed into people reaching out

54:02

to

54:03

prayer movements like our own but

54:05

reaching out to parachurch movements

54:07

from

54:07

billy graham all the way down to small

54:10

organizations led by grandmas and

54:13

grandpas who are willing to pick up the

54:15

phone or respond to somebody reaching

54:17

out online

54:18

that has resulted in a pronounced amount

54:22

of

54:22

evangelism of salvation their salvations

54:26

taking place even in the epicenters of

54:28

where

54:28

the some of the violence is that in this

54:31

time that

54:32

that seemed to peril the the downtrend

54:36

of the church prayer has been all

54:38

at an all-time high evangelism although

54:41

these aren't the things that feed that

54:43

fill the news feed

54:44

evangelism has had a great resurgence

54:47

that that in this time there has been

54:50

even if you

54:51

disagree with the apocalyptic undertones

54:54

there has been a unified message of a

54:57

call to the church

54:58

to repent to face the places of

55:01

mismanagement

55:03

of our heart and of her soul and of a

55:05

representative of christ

55:07

that all throughout the body of christ

55:09

throughout many nations

55:11

there has been this clarion call for the

55:13

church to make herself ready

55:15

to face her her sins before god

55:18

to address the national sins even of

55:21

issues

55:22

of racism to repent so that the healing

55:25

of the land can come forth and a way can

55:27

be made for the second great

55:29

awakening what do i see i look upon the

55:32

landscape and

55:34

i see the word of the lord

55:37

speaking over the dry bones that they

55:39

would live

55:40

i see hope and i see an expectation

55:44

in the heart of the lord and in the

55:46

heart of so many

55:47

who are called to speak in terms of what

55:49

we see i

55:50

acknowledge the need for the apocalyptic

55:54

calling forth of the body back to christ

55:56

but what i see in terms of the purposes

55:58

of god

56:00

that we would look back at this time and

56:02

call the messiness

56:04

and the upheaval of it and say it was

56:07

worth it

56:08

for the fruit that we've gained at the

56:10

backside of it

56:11

and so i just want to encourage uh those

56:14

who are in the messiness and in the

56:16

trenches

56:17

uh to be in them with faith jesus said

56:20

man when i come back will i

56:22

will people be in faith be trusting me

56:25

to fulfill my purposes in the church or

56:27

are they gonna be so focused on the mess

56:29

that they're gonna buy into the

56:31

propaganda that this

56:32

let's just explode this whole thing it

56:35

just needs to die

56:36

and while it's true there are aspects

56:38

that need to be purged

56:40

that need to be shuffled off like

56:42

aspects of mortal coil

56:44

it is for the purpose of new life not

56:47

for god sanctioning the death

56:49

of the church i believe shall come forth

56:52

far more radiant

56:53

than when she went in that shall be

56:55

battle scarred

56:57

and that she will carry the the uh

57:00

the gravitas of having been in battle

57:03

that's on the backside of this that she

57:06

will have faced

57:08

all of those places where she behaved

57:10

polarized where she demonized

57:12

her enemies that shall have faced those

57:14

things and be prepared at the back of

57:16

this civil war

57:17

to embrace and to shake hands in a new

57:20

quality of unity

57:22

that she'll be prepared for evangelism

57:24

like she never had before

57:26

i i see great greatness

57:29

uh in in the church's future at the

57:32

backside of the hot mess

57:35

that is this season of purging

57:38

yeah i think right now

57:41

when you talk about will i find faith

57:44

jesus saying will i find faith

57:46

i need more faith right now i don't need

57:51

you know ignorant certainty or

57:54

hubris i'm just i just need some humble

57:59

simple faith and hope right now

58:03

on my worst days and my darkest days

58:05

there's a lot of them

58:07

in 2020 there's a lot of dark days but

58:10

just that

58:11

simple action of faith

58:15

believing that something better is there

58:17

beneath the surface believing

58:19

that there's something beautiful being

58:21

born out of the ugliness and mess and

58:23

cries

58:24

of the oppressed that there's something

58:26

being born out of it i have to believe

58:29

it

58:30

so lisa thank you for focusing our eyes

58:33

on

58:34

on that thank you for sharing your

58:36

experience

58:37

you're so generous with it and uh is

58:39

there any recommendations for

58:41

people to connect with whether it's 24 7

58:43

prayer

58:44

or it's books that you think would be

58:46

really really handy for people to get

58:47

their hands on to

58:49

open their imaginations a little bit to

58:50

whether it's prayer or justice

58:52

or mission um our movement believes in

58:55

the partnership

58:56

of prayer and justice that it is those

59:00

two twin pillars that work together

59:03

to produce godly fruit in the world

59:07

so we're uh we have created on the 247

59:10

prayerusa.com

59:12

website we've curated a ton of resources

59:15

to help people both engage on the prayer

59:18

side

59:19

and on the practical side to do the

59:22

churchy stuff

59:23

and to get out on the streets and do the

59:25

sweaty nitty gritty

59:27

dirty stuff 24 7 prayerusa.com

59:31

the books that we recommend we also have

59:33

a list on there of

59:34

recommended resources to educate

59:36

yourself about

59:38

issues of racial justice and

59:39

discrimination historically from the

59:41

point of our nation especially

59:43

but it's through most of the resources

59:46

are through the lens of a kingdom ethos

59:48

uh we have recommendations that people

59:51

pick up the book

59:52

like called be the bridge or jesus and

59:54

the disinherited

59:56

or a great new book that's out called

59:58

neighborliness and all of that's on the

60:00

website

60:00

uh to just start to read and educate

60:03

themselves

60:04

around these issues and and what it

60:07

looks like to

60:08

do activism through uh through a kingdom

60:11

lens

60:12

awesome can i ask what the picture next

60:14

to you is uh

60:16

it is the picture uh that represents

60:19

this thing that we've been talking about

60:21

the partnership of prayer and justice

60:24

that this person is in full regalia i

60:27

mean he's

60:28

meddled up he's even got the the hand uh

60:31

armor on because he spends a

60:35

big portion of his life in the

60:37

battlefield

60:38

but he is sent into that battlefield

60:42

from a place of intercession and so his

60:45

current posture

60:46

is a posture of intercession before the

60:48

lord and the intercession is

60:51

at one side setting his own heart

60:54

in partnership with god surrendering his

60:57

rage and his anger

60:59

submitting his zeal renouncing

61:03

just the uh the the drives of the flesh

61:07

uh in this battle and and and the other

61:10

part

61:10

is praying the prayers that pave away so

61:14

that when he's back out in the trenches

61:15

with him and his buddies

61:17

that the all of the the kingdom of

61:20

heaven and the angelic powers

61:22

are working alongside him to bring god's

61:24

will to pass as it were

61:26

on earth as in heaven thank you

61:30

that's more than that sorry could have

61:32

gone shorter but i just didn't want to

61:34

that's

61:36

awesome

61:38

well lisa coons thank you for joining us

61:39

thank you for your time and thank you

61:41

for

61:42

all that you're pouring yourself into

61:44

keep getting after it

61:45

we'll follow you thanks so much for

61:47

inviting me to be a part of this

61:49

conversation

61:50

i pray that god uses it to to bring a

61:52

rightness of priority and opposition to

61:55

the hearts of the followers of christ

61:56

who

61:57

are in some way inspired by this thanks

61:58

so much for inviting me to do it

62:09

thanks for listening we hope you enjoyed

62:11

this conversation you can find us on

62:12

social media

62:14

like and share and subscribe wherever

62:16

you get your podcasts

62:17

if you're inclined to leave a review we

62:19

read through all of those and we love

62:20

the feedback

62:21

till next time this has been a pastor

62:23

and a philosopher

62:24

walking to a bar

62:56

she's great totally yeah

62:59

i was i appreciated your you know

63:03

uh lack of

63:06

you know strong follow-up to some of her

63:08

answers because i know that you know

63:10

there are probably some some things that

63:11

she was saying where you wanted to be

63:13

like yeah but

63:14

no like she kind of makes me feel like a

63:16

kid

63:18

like when i said i'd like correction i

63:20

meant it and i feel like you look like

63:21

you looked

63:22

like i feel like i got something that's

63:24

good you looked emotional i don't really

63:27

this funny nick we'd have this running

63:28

text chain and he asked randomly the

63:30

other day

63:31

if i thought there was any difference

63:32

between a true philosopher and a true

63:34

prophet and

63:34

i didn't have a good answer but like i

63:37

don't know what the hell i think

63:38

prophecy is but

63:40

if a philosopher were to encounter an

63:42

actual one i think it would feel kind of

63:44

like i just felt

63:46

in the sense that i could make arguments

63:48

all day and nitpick some stuff but

63:52

yeah for somebody that actually hears

63:53

from god as far as i can tell

63:55

right you know for all i know it could

63:57

be all in her head it could be all in

63:58

all of our heads but

64:01

somebody that has the clout to back up

64:04

the sorts of things they're saying it's

64:06

i feel like my role is to just shut up