In this episode we tackle the good, the bad, and the ugly of American evangelicalism. This conversation represents the culmination of something Kyle and Randy have been discussing for a while, and something that comes up a lot when they do live church Q&A's. Is "evangelicalism" salvageable? Listen to find out.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Willett Pot Still Reserve.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
In this episode we tackle the good, the bad, and the ugly of American evangelicalism. This conversation represents the culmination of something Kyle and Randy have been discussing for a while, and something that comes up a lot when they do live church Q&A's. Is "evangelicalism" salvageable? Listen to find out.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Willett Pot Still Reserve.
If you're local to Milwaukee, check out our friends at Story Hill BKC.
00:00
[Music]
00:14
welcome to
00:14
a pastor and a philosopher walk into a
00:16
bar the podcast where we mix a sometimes
00:19
weird but always delicious cocktail of
00:21
theology
00:22
philosophy and spirituality
00:28
hello friends and welcome to a pastor
00:30
and a philosopher walk into a bar
00:33
i'm excited to be with you today i'm
00:34
excited about what we're going to talk
00:36
about
00:37
mostly and i'm excited about what we're
00:39
going to drink today so kyle could you
00:41
just
00:42
tee it up for us please yeah so our
00:45
topic for today
00:46
is evangelicalism praise the lord uh
00:48
this is something that randy and i have
00:50
been talking about for a long time it's
00:51
something i think we've both been
00:52
wrestling with
00:53
for a long time we until fairly recently
00:56
would both have confidently described
00:58
ourselves
00:59
as evangelicals whether we still would
01:02
or not is going to be part of our
01:03
conversation
01:05
so we're going to talk about the the
01:07
good the bad and the ugly
01:08
of what it means to be an evangelical in
01:10
the united states
01:11
oh boy well i could use a good drink to
01:14
talk about evangelicalism in the united
01:16
states as
01:17
it currently sits so kyle what are we
01:19
drinking today
01:21
today we have willet pot still
01:24
small batch straight bourbon whiskey now
01:27
that's just the normal will it
01:28
correct yeah yeah hot steel small
01:32
i know i know that's just what it says
01:33
on the label it comes in a funny shaped
01:36
bottle that kind of looks like a pot
01:37
still
01:38
so it's it is it's a good looking bottle
01:42
it's very recognizable on the shelf
01:43
sort of drug paraphernalia i've always
01:46
looked like a bomb yeah you could
01:49
definitely smoke something out of it
01:51
i'm sure if you wanted to uh so this
01:54
comes in at
01:55
47 alcohol by volume
01:58
it is a straight bourbon whiskey which
02:00
means it's aged for at least two years
02:03
in new oak barrels uh
02:06
and it's delicious man i get this could
02:08
just be the glass but i really think i
02:10
get a lot of barn in the nose here
02:12
a lot of dusty oh yeah major old musty
02:16
books like dusty books
02:17
dusty library and barn like old wood
02:20
prefab wood
02:21
you know it's very specific yeah
02:25
all right now i'm gonna that was just
02:26
the nose i'm gonna taste it now
02:28
i mean to me it's a punch in the face of
02:30
vanilla
02:32
some black pepper on the back end nice
02:34
all right yep a little spicy but not too
02:37
much
02:37
i get the vanilla i get cherries yep
02:39
cinnamon flavor
02:40
cinnamon uh yep yes a good for me a good
02:43
bourbon
02:44
slash a good whiskey but particularly
02:47
bourbon is
02:48
when the front of your pallet or the
02:49
front of your tongue is
02:51
different than the middle in the back of
02:53
your palate
02:55
yeah when that's complex enough to
02:57
actually do something and have different
02:59
descriptors
03:00
that's i'm having fun then yep vanilla
03:02
hits first it's like it's more cloves on
03:05
the back
03:07
for me i feel like that's the the taste
03:09
that stays in my mouth for a while
03:11
we apologize to all you non whiskey
03:13
geeks
03:14
but i'm not fine that's where there's a
03:17
fast forward button on your
03:19
on your app um this bourbon used to be
03:21
really easy to find i guess it's not so
03:23
easy to find anymore
03:25
um it's so comes in somewhere around the
03:26
40 mark i think
03:28
comparable to other mid-range bourbons
03:31
yeah i'd say that's a great 40
03:33
whiskey myself i'd have to think hard
03:36
and have them side by side if i
03:37
like will it or woodford to me we're
03:40
gonna need to get some wood good stuff
03:41
side by side
03:42
all right hey we should cool all right
03:45
well cheers boys
03:47
cheers evangelicalism
03:51
is a hot button topic in our world today
03:54
particularly among people who are maybe
03:57
on the first half of life
03:58
40 and under there's a lot of
04:02
hand wringing over it there's a lot of
04:03
anger over evangelicalism there's a lot
04:05
of protection and defensiveness when it
04:07
comes to
04:08
talking about evangelicalism and there's
04:10
a lot of people
04:11
a lot of people who grew up in within
04:13
evangelicalism
04:15
who want nothing to do with it and in
04:17
many ways because of evangelicalism want
04:18
nothing to
04:19
do with the church they've written it
04:21
off some of them have
04:22
gone on to high church traditions
04:24
catholic presbyterian episcopalian you
04:26
name it but i would say many of them
04:29
have become
04:30
gone into this none category where
04:31
they're just i'm done with organized
04:33
religion it's
04:34
evangelicalism has ruined me for
04:36
christianity
04:38
and that's uh that's a loaded gun that
04:41
we're talking about here
04:42
something that some people say because
04:44
of that i don't want anything to do with
04:45
religion and then some people who are
04:47
clinging to it
04:48
in all in its in its pure form or in
04:50
their pure form
04:52
in defending it and they think defending
04:54
evangelicalism equals defending the
04:56
gospel
04:57
right which i would totally disagree
04:58
with kyle can you just frame up
05:01
this big umbrella that is evangelicalism
05:04
a bit for us give us an overview
05:07
sure and just to piggyback on what you
05:09
said there's another class of
05:11
people who just don't know what to do
05:12
with themselves like they're not willing
05:14
to become the nun and they're not
05:15
willing to exit into what you call the
05:17
high church traditions
05:18
they just don't know where to go because
05:20
there's nowhere that they fit and so
05:21
they
05:22
sort of spin their wheels and are really
05:23
really unhappy i know quite a few people
05:25
like that
05:26
disgruntled within the movement but
05:27
don't know where where
05:29
what their options are correct yeah yeah
05:30
or they don't have any good options
05:32
um so there's several different i mean
05:35
it's one of those words where you drop
05:37
it in a room and suddenly
05:38
you've made enemies on all sides right
05:40
because it means so many different
05:41
things to so many different people
05:43
so to give some some clarity about what
05:45
it is we're talking about here
05:46
we're both americans and so what we're
05:48
going to be talking about is american
05:50
evangelicalism
05:51
i say that because evangelicalism is
05:53
older than
05:55
the american expression of it it exists
05:58
in other parts of the world today in
05:59
very different ways than it does
06:01
in the united states and so that's not
06:03
necessarily what we're talking about but
06:05
it's important to keep in mind that
06:07
american christians are a very small
06:08
segment of christians globally and there
06:10
are many
06:11
global christians who would use the word
06:13
somewhat differently from how americans
06:15
use it
06:16
in the united states it's almost become
06:17
synonymous with a political voting bloc
06:20
so when you read a poll from barna or
06:23
pew or something like that and they talk
06:24
about evangelicals
06:26
what they mean is this this really
06:29
sizable
06:30
and politically powerful demographic
06:34
that's mostly white that votes a
06:36
particular way
06:37
and to to extricate evangelicalism
06:40
from that can be very very difficult so
06:43
if we're going to talk about we're going
06:44
to have to talk about both the spiritual
06:47
aspects of it and also the political
06:49
aspects of it because
06:50
these days they're they're one entity
06:53
and it would be kind of dishonest of us
06:54
to pretend
06:56
that we could we could just isolate one
06:58
half of that and ignore the other half
07:00
which would be really nice to do right
07:02
uh i personally wish i could ignore the
07:04
political half and just focus in on the
07:06
theological stuff but it's not that
07:07
simple
07:08
so we have to just admit it's aligned
07:11
with
07:12
today in the united states conservative
07:14
politics politics of the
07:17
the gop which itself is quite different
07:19
than it was
07:20
a couple decades ago on the more
07:23
theological or religious side what does
07:25
it mean to be an evangelical
07:26
fortunately here there's a definition
07:28
that's pretty widely accepted
07:30
that we can appeal to so there's this
07:33
historian
07:34
i think he's british named david
07:36
bevington actually
07:37
he and an american historian named mark
07:40
knoll
07:40
have both written a lot about
07:42
evangelicalism trying to sort of locate
07:44
it in the history of religious thought
07:47
and they just came out with a book
07:48
together about
07:50
evangelicalism in its place and actually
07:52
its future so i'm looking forward to
07:53
reading that
07:54
later this year yeah but bevington gave
07:57
this
07:58
call it a definition he set out for
08:01
markers i'm going to call them markers
08:03
of evangelicalism
08:05
as a way to distinguish it from other
08:07
historical religious movements
08:09
so he says there's four things that are
08:11
kind of distinctive
08:12
to evangelicalism first a kind of
08:16
he called it biblicism so
08:20
a strong emphasis on the bible uh now
08:23
some evangelicals
08:25
yeah the authority of authority
08:26
particularly in the sense of what should
08:28
i believe about god
08:30
but also for most evangelicals what
08:32
should i believe about the world
08:34
and what should i believe about ethics
08:35
really what should i believe period
08:37
yeah i mean when it comes to the bible
08:39
and biblicism i would say this is a huge
08:42
departure from this is a protestant
08:44
thing in many ways i would say
08:46
is that catholics look at to their main
08:48
authority as tradition
08:50
and evangelicals look to their main
08:51
authority as the bible
08:53
yeah catholics don't even read the book
08:55
right
08:56
that's a little jab to my catholic
08:58
friends but i've had priests say that to
08:59
me so
09:00
i feel okay about it yeah um
09:04
that's a huge huge divergence that's a
09:08
that's a major major difference in what
09:10
we give authority in way
09:12
and most of my catholic good catholic
09:14
friends and most of my good evangelical
09:15
friends would say
09:17
both of them catholics put too much
09:19
weight into
09:20
tradition and evangelicals probably put
09:23
too much weight
09:24
into the scriptures now if i said if
09:26
you're a good evangelical listening
09:28
you just put me in the heretic box
09:29
because you can't put too much weight in
09:31
scriptures
09:32
but but that's exactly what we're
09:34
talking that that attitude that's
09:35
biblicism you can't put too much weight
09:37
on this that's
09:38
that's what that's what bevington has in
09:40
mind um so that's the first identifier
09:43
or the first marker the second
09:44
is cruciate centrism which is just a big
09:47
word that means
09:48
a strong focus on the cross so the death
09:52
of jesus is the most important aspect of
09:55
christianity or the death
09:56
and resurrection let's put those
09:58
together of jesus
10:00
are the defining features of
10:02
christianity that's what it's
10:04
really all about let's let's make
10:06
another nuance here i would say
10:08
good evangelicals with good theology
10:11
would say the death and resurrection
10:12
of jesus is central but i would say
10:16
part of that not fully robust
10:18
evangelical theology
10:20
really even leaves out the resurrection
10:21
and just says it's all about
10:23
the cross yeah and not in a non-healthy
10:26
way i would say
10:26
yeah so there are fair enough there are
10:28
some traditions that you could you could
10:30
sit in
10:31
a church in that tradition for several
10:33
years and not realize that the
10:34
resurrection was that important
10:36
but you know guys a lot about you know a
10:38
whole lot about the crucifixion
10:40
and sin um definitely fair point um so
10:44
that's biblicism crucialism third we
10:46
have conversionism
10:48
so this is the idea that you need to
10:51
have
10:52
a conversion experience born again
10:55
yeah to be born again to use the
10:57
scriptural language you have to be one
10:59
way
11:00
and then you make a decision and you
11:01
repent and you have an experience and
11:03
then you're a different way
11:04
and that's how you enter into the church
11:07
that's put into terms how do you stay in
11:08
the church
11:09
put into terms that i grew up with did
11:12
you invite jesus into your heart yeah or
11:14
i invited jesus into my heart when i was
11:16
eight years old at a milwaukee brewers
11:17
baseball
11:18
christian camp and i remember kneeling
11:20
on one knee thinking about what a worm i
11:22
was
11:23
at eight years old invited jesus into my
11:25
heart and i get to live forever i was
11:27
nine
11:27
so that's interesting uh and i remember
11:30
praying that conversion prayer three or
11:32
four times to make sure that it's
11:34
that stuck before i told it absolutely
11:38
but yeah you have to have this conv and
11:39
sometimes those you know those
11:40
conversion stories are very dramatic and
11:42
sometimes they're not they happen when
11:43
you're a kid
11:44
but the point is uh there has to be a
11:46
point in your life when you acknowledge
11:48
the lordship of christ and you devote
11:50
your life to that and yeah that's your
11:52
conversion as a good church boy and
11:54
pastor son i would guess that you had
11:55
the the problem of your a boring
11:57
testimony where like you grew up a
11:59
christian
12:00
and you didn't have that like cool
12:01
college story where you could i was
12:03
six so yeah if either of you need any
12:06
spiritual guidance on your
12:07
journey or whatever just like a little
12:09
ahead and you can
12:10
lean on me yeah yeah thank you
12:13
[Laughter]
12:15
so that's the first three yeah and then
12:16
the last marker uh according to
12:18
bebington is activism
12:20
this one's vague it can mean a lot of
12:22
different things to a lot of different
12:23
people
12:24
right now it means political activism
12:26
that's what it means in the united
12:27
states
12:27
i didn't always mean that though it
12:29
could be
12:30
prior to the civil war in the united
12:33
states it meant
12:34
what we would now call social justice
12:36
yeah i'm caring for the poor
12:38
and the downtrodden and the socially
12:40
disenfranchised
12:41
doesn't matter so much anymore i would
12:43
say that's the beautiful roots of
12:45
evangelicalism evangelicalism when it
12:47
began
12:48
i'd be a card-carrying member to be
12:50
honest with you with john wesley and the
12:52
methodists and
12:52
the social justice movement that was
12:55
burst out of there really
12:56
is a huge part of the foundation of
13:00
evangelicalism
13:01
it's beautiful it's good unfortunately
13:03
now when you talk about social justice
13:05
to most evangelicals
13:07
you're talking politically you're
13:08
talking a dirty word social justice
13:11
is like now a dog whistle for saying oh
13:14
that's a liberal evangelical so that you
13:16
can write them off
13:17
yeah so it's changed dramatically in the
13:20
last
13:21
um 150 years and i think another aspect
13:24
of this
13:25
is well several things happen we could
13:27
talk about a few of those things i mean
13:28
the war was one thing and there was
13:30
fundamentalism which we've talked about
13:32
in a separate episode happened a lot of
13:34
things happened in culture that
13:35
evangelicals felt they needed to react
13:37
against
13:37
probably the enlightenment being
13:39
possibly the biggest right well yeah
13:41
certain ways of looking at scripture
13:43
that were birthed in the enlightenment
13:45
yeah and so
13:46
because of those ten those trends in
13:48
this broader society and because of the
13:50
decisions that
13:51
a lot of evangelicals at the time made
13:54
to
13:54
react against those things and to i mean
13:57
they chose a couple hills to die on that
13:59
they honestly shouldn't have chosen
14:01
and that started a trajectory that led
14:02
to what where we're at today
14:04
just imagine though for the first time
14:06
actually right now as we speak
14:09
listeners friends community we're
14:11
sharing a moment of epiphany here
14:12
i actually understand a little bit i
14:14
feel like i'm i'm i can empathize with
14:17
the evangelicals who reacted in the
14:19
wrong way during the enlightenment when
14:21
you're getting you're used to a world in
14:23
which science is just
14:24
loose theoretical non-foundational world
14:29
that it really doesn't have much matter
14:30
when we're talking about truth
14:32
but then all of a sudden with the boom
14:35
of scientific discovery happening
14:37
in the enlightenment all of a sudden
14:38
people are saying oh we can actually see
14:40
what's true based on science
14:42
and can i can imagine where a church
14:44
that's been used to being able to
14:45
identify what's true based on the bible
14:47
based on tradition based on their their
14:49
ideas
14:50
now they're being challenged by science
14:51
and that's a very insecure moment
14:54
and so now all of a sudden we have to
14:55
react right that's usually where things
14:57
go wrong
14:58
is where instead of responding you
14:59
actually react and so now we have to
15:01
react and say no this
15:02
what is in this book is scientific fact
15:06
right or fill in the blank you they went
15:07
all sorts of different directions but i
15:09
actually get that you know like they're
15:10
used to controlling the narrative
15:11
they're used to having
15:13
the the lion's share of what it means to
15:16
be
15:16
what's something if something's true or
15:18
not and all of a sudden that rugs
15:20
getting swept up from underneath them
15:21
and they panic i get it yeah but yet
15:25
it gave birth to all sorts of
15:28
funky theology and bad ways of looking
15:30
at the scriptures it makes you think it
15:31
makes me think
15:32
that if they had really honored the
15:35
scripture as much as they
15:36
claimed to if their biblicism has been
15:39
sincere
15:40
they might have noticed that it's
15:41
written from the perspective of socially
15:44
weak people
15:45
yes absolutely they're an oppressed
15:48
people
15:48
yeah i mean it's written from the
15:50
perspective of social oppression
15:52
yeah so to use it as a way to hold on to
15:56
social power is
15:57
pretty ironic and what's ir what's
15:59
what's crazy is that the bible actually
16:01
never claims to be a book of science
16:03
no literally science didn't exist
16:07
and the ancient people had their science
16:10
all wrong so if we're taking science
16:12
from
16:12
from this book that's thousands of years
16:15
old
16:16
whoa we're going to have a weird science
16:17
anyways yeah and it did i mean it turned
16:19
out to be really weird and parochial and
16:21
is to this day
16:22
yeah before we move on from this i just
16:24
wanted to say like another aspect it
16:26
seems to me of
16:27
activism see if you agree with this is a
16:30
certain kind of
16:31
evangelism evangelism for the purposes
16:35
of
16:35
conversion evangelism it seems to me
16:38
not as an expert here within
16:41
evangelicalism evangelism looks quite
16:43
different than it does outside of
16:44
evangelicalism
16:46
has that been your experience yeah i
16:48
would say
16:49
i mean evangelicals do
16:52
evangelicalism evangelism i'm sorry very
16:56
poorly for the most part but
16:57
to their credit they're one of the few
17:00
traditions that actually do evangelism
17:02
intentionally um and hold it as a
17:05
as a value i would say or or well they
17:09
i don't want to say for example that
17:10
catholics don't hold evangelism to be of
17:13
value
17:14
but their approach to it seems very very
17:16
different yeah and here's what i think
17:18
you were getting at which i would
17:19
completely agree with
17:20
uh even a typical evangelical response
17:22
to
17:23
a social justice movement would be well
17:26
we just got to get them saved
17:27
right like why are you worrying about
17:29
their environment why are you worrying
17:30
about those kids
17:31
not having food to eat why are you
17:32
wearing worrying about those kids not
17:34
having parents why are you worrying
17:35
about those kids not having health care
17:36
we just got to get introduce them to
17:38
jesus and if that's if that happens
17:40
let's move on and get the next ones is
17:42
that what you're getting at yeah yeah
17:43
yeah i literally heard my old pastor say
17:45
those exact words
17:47
people would argue about other various
17:49
things and uh he'd be like oh
17:51
let's just focus on what really matters
17:53
yeah that's been some of the comments
17:55
uh some some of the things that i've
17:57
seen coming out of
17:58
some of my evangelical friends in
18:00
response to recent
18:02
racial protests the this uprising trying
18:05
to do something
18:06
the response is why why aren't we seeing
18:09
the gospel mentioned here like we should
18:11
be mentioning the gospel
18:12
protests that that aren't uh that don't
18:15
have the gospel message embedded in them
18:17
are
18:17
are useless and uh and it's of the world
18:20
yeah yeah i i have trouble putting
18:24
wrapping my head around how the gospel
18:26
could be extricated from
18:28
the advocacy for the poor and the
18:30
powerless but it but it seems like
18:32
that's a division that's been really
18:34
cleanly made in a widespread way
18:36
and it gives you it gives you a sense of
18:39
what
18:40
that kind of evangelical must mean by
18:42
the gospel if it's not already present
18:44
in that kind of service and that kind of
18:46
social activism
18:48
then what is the additional thing that
18:49
they think the gospel is that's missing
18:51
from that exchange
18:52
and it seems to me it's something
18:54
cognitive it's it's
18:56
a matter of what people believe what
18:58
propositions they have assented to
19:00
and if that's what it means then that's
19:02
a thoroughly unbiblical way of thinking
19:04
about
19:05
yeah it's probably about where they go
19:06
when they die too like that's sure
19:08
if sure but the thing that that decides
19:11
that for
19:12
for many many evangelicals is what you
19:15
believe
19:16
uh i heard a philosopher of religion one
19:18
time kind of snarkily
19:20
say it's almost like when you get to
19:22
heaven god is going to put a little hat
19:24
on you with a little meter on it he
19:26
called it a doxastoscope
19:28
it's something that measures the level
19:30
of your belief and if
19:31
if the you know if the needle pins the
19:33
right thing then you get
19:35
let in or something which is absurd when
19:37
you put it that way but that really does
19:38
seem to be
19:39
the basis of most evangelicals beliefs
19:43
about what it takes to be saved so it's
19:45
a matter of doctrinal ascent
19:47
now to be fair to evangelicals i would
19:50
say
19:52
interpretation or the translation that
19:54
we've been given of the apostle paul
19:55
particularly in the book of romans and
19:57
many other places would in galatians
19:59
would lead us to believe that belief is
20:01
everything right so like to be fair to
20:03
them you have to
20:04
you have to look those those verses and
20:06
those texts in the eye and say
20:08
yeah what's is there something bigger
20:10
going on so i
20:11
i think belief actually does matter in
20:14
in
20:15
in some way to god i think god really
20:17
loves it when we put our faith and trust
20:18
in him
20:19
but what where i said the translation is
20:22
usually when paul says faith in christ
20:24
it's the original greek is usually
20:27
faithfulness to christ right and that's
20:30
totally different that means
20:31
i can have i can have feeble faith
20:33
that's struggling to actually
20:35
really cognitively put the dots together
20:37
i can i can be having a hard time
20:39
in doubting but still be faithful to
20:41
christ in my life
20:42
that's a very big difference so this to
20:44
me is another irony of
20:45
evangelical biblical scholarship because
20:48
it seems to me
20:49
like i agree with you that on the
20:51
surface it would make sense how they got
20:53
there
20:54
to the belief is everything kind of view
20:56
but they got there through poor exit
20:58
jesus
20:58
they got there through ignoring superior
21:01
biblical
21:02
scholarship which would have told you
21:04
that you know english translations
21:06
of the word belief are not adequate for
21:09
the greek
21:10
pistus or pasteur or whatever this is
21:13
not what they meant
21:14
right and so if you you know if you read
21:16
paul in an english translation it's easy
21:17
to come away you're right it's easy to
21:18
come away with the view that
21:20
without belief you know your your
21:22
eternal security is
21:23
is not there but when you recognize that
21:26
paul didn't really think of belief in
21:28
the same way that we do nor did jesus
21:30
the whole foundation of that kind of
21:31
gives way yeah absolutely i can
21:34
i've been in evangelicalism long enough
21:36
that i can put on the hat and really
21:38
quickly think in those ways and and
21:40
feel that defensiveness that that i
21:43
think has to be felt when we look at the
21:44
reality that like going back to the
21:46
example of the protesters
21:47
if if there's a world out there that's
21:49
advocating for justice more than the
21:51
church is
21:53
for the church to come along if if
21:54
that's the if that's the gospel of
21:56
advocacy for the oppressed is
21:58
is part of the gospel and that's
22:00
happening better outside of the church
22:01
as the church comes along it's like
22:02
trying to sell
22:04
ocean water on the beach like we have we
22:06
have yeah
22:07
it's more expensive because we're going
22:09
to ask something of you
22:11
as you as you join this movement and we
22:12
have literally nothing to offer
22:15
that isn't already present uh outside of
22:17
the church so the defensiveness is
22:20
uh i think it's a response to what's
22:23
perceived as a position of um it's a
22:25
perilous position it's a weak position
22:28
i can't sell this yeah
22:31
you get no argument from me so randy
22:35
you're
22:35
you're a pastor of what you used to
22:39
confidently call an evangelical
22:41
church i did yep so has that changed for
22:45
you
22:45
what has you what has been your
22:46
experience in fact for both of you
22:48
because i know you both have
22:50
extensive experience in the evangelical
22:51
church world can you just describe for
22:53
our listeners what that experience was
22:55
like
22:55
and why you are where you are now yeah
22:58
and i'll say
22:59
back to you kyle i feel like you've held
23:02
on to the evangelical label only because
23:04
we as a church have for the last yeah
23:08
for the last three or four years that's
23:09
fair
23:10
yeah okay which is very honoring of you
23:12
by the way
23:13
um it's just more work to not use
23:18
the label yeah you have to explain what
23:20
you mean now
23:21
yeah yeah yeah i mean i avoid a lot of
23:23
awkward conversations
23:25
yep so i've been a pastor for uh
23:28
for about almost 14 years
23:31
in september we started brew city church
23:33
in september of
23:34
man i think 2006 it was a year after we
23:37
got married my wife and i
23:39
and at those moments i really didn't
23:41
have a whole lot of qualms with
23:43
evangelicalism by name or the tribe
23:45
right i
23:46
even then i still tried to prophetically
23:49
speak out against the
23:50
overtly political nature of it i've been
23:52
uncomfortable with that since i was in
23:53
middle school to be honest with you
23:55
and confronted by it so there's things
23:57
that i fought against
23:58
early in my pastoral life career calling
24:01
whatever you wanted to call it
24:03
but in the last probably 10 years
24:06
and especially probably four or five
24:09
i've grown increasingly uncomfortable
24:11
with the label and
24:12
in the last couple of years have really
24:14
actually
24:16
i dread when people ask me i don't dread
24:19
what people ask me what i do
24:20
i don't mind saying that i'm a pastor
24:22
but i dread the following question which
24:24
is always
24:24
what kind of church do you pastor that
24:27
question i absolutely dread because
24:30
by and large they easily write me off
24:32
when they hear i'm an evangelical pastor
24:34
they easily put me in a box they easily
24:36
label me
24:37
as conservative republican
24:40
trump supporter homophobic very
24:44
homophobic
24:45
judgmental he thinks that i'm going to
24:48
hell
24:48
no matter what there's there's all these
24:50
things that like as soon as i say
24:52
evangelical pastor i think
24:53
subconsciously and even consciously
24:55
people put together these little things
24:57
that go off that says
24:58
he's judging you as we speak he's not a
25:00
safe person
25:01
he's he's he's got an agenda and since
25:04
that's been happening in the last five
25:06
six years or so i've become extremely
25:08
uncomfortable
25:09
for me personally as an evangelical and
25:12
then
25:12
something happened to me a couple maybe
25:14
a little more than a year ago
25:17
one easter morning on easter is a big
25:19
deal for guys like me right we our
25:22
buildings are packed people are ready
25:24
for us to be inspired and the worship is
25:26
is beautiful and it's it's a fun time
25:29
and i just remember i remember driving
25:32
in to sunday service and i'd take the
25:34
same way every time
25:35
going down i-94 here in milwaukee and i
25:37
remember thinking there's like three
25:39
times as many cars
25:40
this morning as normal uh struck me i
25:42
know
25:43
how many cars there are going to be what
25:45
the feel is on a normal sunday morning
25:46
and they were
25:47
easily triple the amount of cars on the
25:49
road and i told me something and then we
25:51
have
25:52
all these people in the in the building
25:54
and we pack it out and it's
25:55
it's wild times and instead of being
25:58
super
25:59
pumped by that and super excited by that
26:02
i was disturbed by it because it just
26:03
told me
26:04
what's keeping these folks from being
26:06
here the other 51 weeks of the year
26:08
right
26:09
and what i realized was
26:12
maybe it's our label maybe it's that
26:16
as long as we're calling ourselves
26:18
evangelical
26:20
we're actually making ourselves off
26:22
limits to a bunch of people
26:23
who might find what we bring beautiful
26:26
who might find what we bring life-giving
26:28
and eye-opening and surprising but
26:30
because we have this
26:32
tribe in this name over us of
26:35
evangelicals
26:36
they'll write us off and never step foot
26:38
through our doors and
26:39
that is the tipping point for me i don't
26:42
mind being looked at as a
26:44
i don't mind being mine being looked at
26:46
poorly by other people i can explain my
26:48
way out of that
26:49
i do mind when our label affects the
26:52
witness of the gospel when our label
26:54
in our tribe actually compromises the
26:56
witness of christ
26:58
that's that's a that's a non-starter for
27:01
me it can't happen and so since
27:02
since then i've been processing and i've
27:04
just gotten more comfortable with
27:07
being the annoying voice in the room i
27:09
still have evangelical
27:10
friends our church networks are
27:12
evangelical my peers and closest friends
27:14
in the ministry are evangelical
27:16
but i'm no longer comfortable calling
27:18
myself
27:19
evangelical or calling bruce city church
27:21
evangelical now i'm not the only one who
27:23
gets to say what bruce city church is
27:24
with there's
27:25
250 people in a leadership team that
27:27
gets to do that together but
27:28
i just refer to us as a christian church
27:30
non-denominational following jesus
27:33
because i'm tired of beautiful people
27:36
who might be able to hear something
27:37
beautiful
27:38
be off limits to it because of our title
27:41
and our tribe
27:43
yeah speaking of when people ask me what
27:46
i do and i'm dreading when they ask me
27:48
what kind of pastor what kind of church
27:50
i pastor there's just
27:52
a conversation that sticks out to me i
27:54
love cooking
27:55
and somehow that got out to my kids my
27:58
boys cub scout camp
27:59
and they recruited me as the camp cook
28:03
for winter camp
28:04
which is just cooking a lot of below
28:08
average you know food
28:11
for a bunch of kids who don't really
28:12
care about what it tastes like it's
28:14
really fun for a cook but so i'm cooking
28:18
and then one of the other dads come in
28:19
his name's ed he's a great guy he's a
28:21
catholic
28:22
he um he lives in the same area as i do
28:26
i can tell he cares about social justice
28:28
a lot
28:29
and we start talking about politics and
28:31
um he's liking where this is going and
28:33
everything
28:34
and then he starts asking what i do and
28:36
i could as soon as he started hinting at
28:38
talking about what i do because we were
28:40
talking about what he does instead
28:42
i was panicking because i knew i was 100
28:45
confident of what his
28:47
reaction would be and so he asked me
28:48
what do you do i'm a pastor
28:51
and you know you always get that little
28:53
like eyebrow raise like
28:54
oh you're a pastor yep i'm a pastor goes
28:57
what
28:58
what kind of church do you pastor and
29:00
inside i'm
29:02
just panicked and i go
29:05
well i'm an evangelical church but it's
29:07
a different kind of evangelical church
29:08
we really care about social justice and
29:10
we really
29:10
we we love we're pretty progressive for
29:13
an evangelical
29:14
church i had to put on so many
29:16
disclaimers and i didn't even let him
29:18
pause or let him say anything before i
29:20
went into all those disclaimers
29:22
because i wanted to crawl into it under
29:24
a table
29:25
and hide because i was embarrassed of my
29:28
tradition i knew what he would think of
29:29
it
29:30
and i knew that he was about to write me
29:31
off and so i felt like i had to save it
29:32
in the moment
29:33
that's a really rough affiliation
29:37
to to take just because that's what
29:39
we've been given
29:41
and now i feel like i've got to justify
29:42
myself and excuse myself in my
29:44
church that i love dearly and i think is
29:47
following in the way of jesus
29:49
but now with most interactions i have to
29:51
actually be embarrassed and excuse our
29:53
us
29:54
because of the name that we have that's
29:56
being trashed by the rest of our tribe
29:58
and family
29:59
not the rest but a lot large part of it
30:01
that's a problem for me
30:04
yeah like most things it comes down to
30:07
is this a
30:08
a liability or is this is this an asset
30:10
is this
30:11
absolutely there's a constant benefit
30:13
and the cost to say you're an
30:14
evangelical is very high
30:16
it's just grown and grown yeah
30:17
absolutely i mean when we first started
30:19
it was a little bit of a liability we
30:21
had a lot of ex evangelical people who
30:23
would be
30:23
young people who would be like okay i'm
30:24
done with the evangelical church but i
30:25
can i can hang with you guys you know
30:27
like
30:28
we meet in warehouses and got to sweep
30:30
up cigarette butts from the
30:31
you know the party that was here the
30:32
night before i can do this here
30:34
but since those early days it's just
30:36
exponentially grown to be a bigger and
30:38
bigger liability to now like you're
30:39
saying elliot
30:40
it's just not worth it i don't think um
30:42
if i actually care about the testimony
30:44
of jesus
30:44
and the gospel it's not worth it
30:48
friends before we continue we want to
30:50
thank story hill bkc
30:51
for their support story hill bkc is a
30:54
full menu restaurant and their food is
30:55
seriously some of the best in milwaukee
30:57
on top of that story hill bkc is a
30:59
full-service liquor store featuring
31:00
growlers of tap available to go
31:03
spirits especially whiskeys and bourbons
31:05
thoughtfully curated regional craft
31:07
beers
31:07
and 375 selections of wine
31:10
visit storyhillbkc.com for menu and more
31:13
info
31:14
if you're in milwaukee you'll thank
31:16
yourself for visiting story hill bkc
31:18
and if you're not remember to support
31:19
local one more time that's
31:22
storyhillbkc.com
31:23
[Music]
31:25
so elliott you have an interesting
31:27
history with
31:28
evangelicalism tell us a little bit
31:30
about that yeah
31:32
well it was my my whole context i grew
31:35
up a pastor's kid within an evangelical
31:37
free church like the full
31:38
efca thing and rural america no less
31:42
in rural america this is this is a badge
31:44
of honor like we're evangelicals because
31:46
we care about
31:48
uh propagating the gospel in the world
31:50
and so i don't know what all of those
31:52
other denominations who aren't
31:53
evangelicals are doing but
31:55
like obviously we've got it right
31:58
i questioned the label until i saw it
32:01
politically associated
32:02
and and even then it's been this long
32:04
kind of this progression of
32:06
of starting to understand more and more
32:08
this is something that's not
32:09
uh i can't when i say i'm an evangelical
32:13
that doesn't
32:14
actually describe what i what i mean or
32:16
what it like what it meant
32:17
in my in my context uh in my my origins
32:20
and so
32:23
it's it hasn't felt like any major cost
32:26
to me to to drop it it's not like i'm
32:28
i have to make a decision on behalf of a
32:30
church or it's what this isn't something
32:32
that
32:33
i i'm really bought into aside from my
32:35
parents tradition frankly and so
32:39
evangelicalism uh as as i see it now
32:43
as it's as it's become politically
32:45
aligned and as i've seen the responses
32:47
of
32:48
um of of those who would
32:51
overtly call themselves evangelical
32:52
christians and and who who wear that on
32:54
their sleeve and then i see
32:56
the the open the racism or the
33:00
if if not if not openly it's the the
33:03
fear of the other the defensiveness this
33:05
fear it seems to be this dominating
33:08
characteristic
33:09
as as we look at um
33:12
immigration or even
33:16
even other denominations at those who
33:18
who we could
33:19
look at and identify as as others within
33:21
the bride of christ it's
33:23
there's this this sense that that they
33:25
don't have it right
33:26
and we do i i don't know when it
33:28
happened but i know i can't call myself
33:31
an evangelical now and
33:32
it's it's been i think in the last
33:36
two three years within the current
33:39
administration perhaps that that i
33:41
finally had to make that break once and
33:42
for all
33:44
yeah and what about you kyle what's your
33:47
process been
33:48
recently so i i
33:51
just sort of de facto became an
33:53
evangelical because
33:54
um when i was a teenager my
33:58
parents switched from the kind of
34:01
liberal
34:01
mainline denomination we were a part of
34:03
to the southern baptist convention but i
34:06
didn't have any idea what that meant
34:08
and so we were just suddenly
34:09
evangelicals but i had no
34:11
context for that or anything i couldn't
34:12
have distinguished it from what i'd
34:14
known
34:14
prior to that point and then when i was
34:18
in college
34:18
i had a pentecostal experience i got
34:22
involved with a bunch of
34:24
a campus ministry of a bunch of
34:25
pentecostals i didn't know they were
34:26
pentecostals but they were
34:28
uh and then sort of they sneakily you
34:29
know baptized me in the holy spirit
34:31
kind of like that scene in nacho libre
34:33
where they just sneak up on you and
34:34
you're baptized and so then i was
34:36
pentecostal which
34:38
is also a kind of evangelicalism at
34:40
least in the united states
34:41
but again i didn't know that so i didn't
34:43
become aware really of being a
34:45
an evangelical until i got to graduate
34:47
school i suppose
34:49
at least it wasn't really on my radar
34:51
and then suddenly you know i'm
34:52
surrounded by a bunch of atheists and
34:54
a bunch of catholics and some mainline
34:57
protestants that are very very liberal
34:59
and i realized that i'm the peculiar one
35:03
that they view evangelicalism as as kind
35:05
of backwards
35:06
as um kind of a punchline really
35:09
socially
35:10
and and particularly from the from the
35:12
perspective of scholarship it was just
35:13
not taken seriously at all
35:15
and i had thought that we were like at
35:17
the pinnacle of
35:19
of christian scholarship i was varying
35:21
at the time i was very into
35:22
apologetics which we can talk about on a
35:26
later date
35:27
and so you definitely get this sense
35:29
within that kind of world that kind of
35:30
space
35:31
that evangelicals often see themselves
35:34
as the cutting edge of scholarship
35:37
especially when it comes to the bible
35:39
and outside of that world they're almost
35:41
entirely ignored
35:43
so there are you know a handful of
35:45
exceptions here and there
35:47
uh evangelical scholars who were
35:49
educated at reputable institutions and
35:51
so they make a name for themselves in
35:52
scholarship
35:53
but you can't when you read their
35:54
scholarly work you can't really tell
35:56
their evangelicals so much
35:58
but like within the umbrella of
36:00
evangelicalism you think oh we have all
36:03
the smartest people all the best experts
36:04
all the best biblical scholars all the
36:06
best you name it
36:07
and then outside of it it's viewed as
36:09
like this kind of fringe
36:10
niche thing that's a little behind
36:12
behind history and the wrong side i mean
36:14
you've seen ken ham's
36:15
ark though like that so i i grew up in
36:18
kentucky
36:19
and as you know just a couple hour drive
36:22
from where i grew up and
36:23
i have relatives who still are very into
36:26
that kind of thing
36:28
yeah so for me
36:32
my movement out of evangelicalism
36:34
coincided with my movement
36:36
out of what i would call second-rate
36:39
scholarship
36:41
not i'm not trying to offend any
36:42
evangelicals here but that's just kind
36:44
of how it happened
36:45
but then i i'm late for that buddy
36:49
i met you and i love you and i love
36:50
everybody at this church and so
36:52
um that's the label that was used and so
36:55
if i would
36:56
if i would meet somebody and they asked
36:57
me what church i went to i would say
36:58
we're a progressive
36:59
evangelical church right and then they'd
37:02
probably ask what that meant and i can
37:03
explain
37:04
you know we're evangelical in these
37:06
distinctives but
37:08
we also like black people and we don't
37:10
hate gay people and we don't think that
37:12
transgender people aren't human and blah
37:13
blah blah blah
37:15
but now i'm very relieved to hear that i
37:16
don't have to make that qualification
37:18
anymore
37:19
there you go i can just say we're a
37:22
christian church in milwaukee
37:24
so we've we've kind of been skirting
37:26
this a little bit some of the
37:28
things that have driven us out of
37:30
evangelicalism
37:31
let's just name some things if that's
37:33
okay
37:34
what are randy from your perspective
37:36
what are the main dangers or the main
37:38
problems
37:39
with evangelicalism that have forced you
37:41
to decide that you can no longer use the
37:43
label
37:45
i mean this might take a while the
37:47
rampant homophobia is a major one
37:50
it haunts me that our tribe
37:55
or maybe even we can say now former
37:56
tribe has
37:58
made a large people group feel like god
38:01
doesn't love them
38:02
because christians don't love me
38:05
god thinks i'm terrible because
38:08
christians obviously think i'm terrible
38:09
god doesn't want anything to do with me
38:11
because christians don't
38:12
want anything to do with me and that's
38:13
by and large evangelicals but
38:16
there's some in the other other
38:18
traditions as well but that's mostly
38:19
evangelical
38:20
i think the the status if you ask
38:22
non-believers
38:24
young non-believers what they think of
38:25
when they think of evangelicals 91
38:27
of them say homophobia that's a problem
38:29
to me because those are people that have
38:31
the gay people have
38:32
the image of god on them they bear the
38:34
imago day
38:35
which makes makes them gives them
38:38
unsurpassable worth and value is
38:40
as greg boyd likes to say that's a
38:42
problem for me
38:43
so homophobia is one of them
38:44
judgmentalism is one of them this us
38:46
versus them mentality that evangelicals
38:49
thrive off of
38:50
is a problem for me because i don't find
38:52
any of that in christ
38:53
in jesus when we talk about the gospels
38:56
the political stuff is a problem for me
38:58
here's here's
38:59
it's not just the political stuff if if
39:00
evangelicals were just mostly republican
39:03
i wouldn't care that wouldn't be that
39:06
big of a deal for me but here's the big
39:08
deal
39:08
is and this has happened i think mostly
39:10
in the last decade
39:12
is what many evangelicals have done
39:14
without knowing it
39:16
is they've they've let their theology be
39:18
influenced by their
39:20
political ideology and that is a scary
39:23
thing that i've noticed that
39:24
when it comes to things like race racism
39:27
in things of race and
39:28
inequality are completely to me kingdom
39:31
things and i'm not saying that they
39:32
don't have political
39:33
outcomes which they do but for me is how
39:36
you feel about equality how you feel
39:38
about
39:38
race and racism that is a completely
39:42
kingdom of god
39:43
issue but because we've got gotten so
39:46
entrenched in the evangelical church
39:48
in the more conservative way of thinking
39:50
now anytime you
39:51
talk about race and i can say this from
39:53
experience loads and loads of it
39:55
that when you talk about race you've got
39:57
to actually cringe because you're going
39:58
to mix
39:59
you're going to make a lot of the room
40:00
mad because you're talking about race
40:02
that means you're a liberal
40:03
that's why many churches right like as
40:05
as we think about the rioting that's
40:07
happening the protests that's
40:08
that's that's been happening and why so
40:11
many evangelical leaders have said
40:12
nothing about it i can tell you
40:14
firsthand i've talked to these guys i
40:15
know
40:16
they're scared out of their mind to do
40:17
it because they know that if they do
40:19
they're going to be seen as liberal
40:21
progressive you know
40:23
heretics and they're going to lose a
40:25
bunch of their church because they're
40:26
going to think you're getting too
40:27
political when really you're just
40:28
walking in the way of jesus
40:29
i can't take that anymore like i'm not
40:32
going to be willing to to compromise the
40:33
gospel for the sake
40:34
of these people who say they love the
40:36
gospel and that's my last one that i'll
40:37
say that
40:38
it's just this one of the straws that
40:40
broke the camel's back is that this
40:42
people
40:43
evangelicals and i'm sorry i'm being so
40:44
hard on you evangelicals now
40:46
it's us i still i still like in many
40:48
ways see us as
40:50
family um but this group of people who
40:54
say they hold the gospel so highly the
40:56
gospel coalition we have we got all
40:57
these gospel-y things
40:59
this group of people who say they care
41:01
about the gospel so much
41:03
this is an extreme statement but i'm
41:05
gonna say it because i've thought it
41:06
through and i really believe it
41:08
evangelical christians who say they hold
41:10
the gospel so highly
41:11
just might be the biggest danger to the
41:13
gospel of jesus christ of any people
41:15
group in the world right now
41:17
i really think that evangelicals again
41:20
who
41:21
say they care so much for the gospel are
41:23
a danger to the gospel and to the
41:24
testimony of christ himself
41:26
they're letting jesus be lumped in with
41:28
this judgmental
41:30
homophobic angry us versus them tribal
41:34
movements
41:34
and everybody's seeing the gospel as
41:36
such that
41:38
is for me that's grounds for divorce
41:42
yeah yeah i have a really hard time even
41:45
considering
41:47
that kind of evangelicalism a genuine
41:50
expression of christianity there's a
41:53
political commentator i won't name him
41:54
because i don't want to necessarily
41:56
recommend his work but
41:57
and he just doesn't even refer to that
41:59
as christianity he calls it christianism
42:01
sure that's good pseudo-christianity and
42:03
i've heard similar other things like
42:04
there's a biblical scholar i respect a
42:06
lot who just calls it the american civil
42:08
religion
42:10
doesn't even use the word christianity
42:12
for it because it's just so
42:14
it's so antithetical to what you see in
42:16
the new testament i mean
42:18
there's nothing about the sermon on the
42:20
mount that's consistent with
42:23
that kind of rampant you know us first
42:26
mentality
42:28
where it's all about grasping and
42:29
maintaining power at the exclusion of
42:31
of others yeah you i mean speaking of
42:34
the term of the mount
42:35
as a good jesus follower wouldn't you
42:37
think that if you find yourself having
42:39
to qualify and put asterisks
42:41
and conditions on the sermon on the
42:42
mount jesus
42:44
formative teaching about what what god
42:46
is like
42:47
doesn't that make you think man i should
42:50
think of my way through
42:51
where i've gotten to in my faith journey
42:54
that's just the fact that more people
42:56
don't consider that because i've heard
42:58
how many evangelicals have the three of
43:00
us heard who
43:02
put asterisks on the sermon on the mount
43:04
to explain it away
43:06
how can you not be how can you not be
43:08
uncomfortable with that i don't
43:09
understand that
43:11
yeah have i hit them all or do you guys
43:13
have other issues with
43:14
evangelicalism since we're taking the
43:15
gloves off here
43:17
i mean mine are maybe predictably
43:21
more evangelicalism has in my experience
43:25
a real hang up with being
43:28
intellectually respectable and that's a
43:31
volatile
43:32
relationship with academia right i think
43:34
this go well
43:35
yeah i mean this probably goes back to
43:38
the foundation of sort of american
43:40
fundamentalism and the sorts of things
43:41
that they were reacting against and
43:44
they they started to form this idea that
43:47
there's a
43:48
an intellectual elite at the big
43:51
universities
43:52
that has it out for them that liberal
43:55
agenda
43:55
yeah the the kind of but like a hidden
43:58
kind of
43:58
uh i don't know conspiratorial kind of
44:01
thing that
44:02
you know to to get a position at one of
44:04
these big universities you have to
44:05
somehow be liberal or
44:06
not take the bible seriously or
44:08
something like that rather than seeing
44:11
the fact that you know most academics
44:13
are more liberal rather than seeing that
44:15
as a reflection of
44:17
the effect of of critical inquiry
44:20
and they see it they see it they take it
44:22
kind of personally and so they
44:23
they become insular and they do a kind
44:26
of very cult-like
44:28
thing i'm not saying all evangelicals
44:30
are in a cult
44:32
but there are some pretty stark
44:34
similarities
44:35
between how evangelical scholarship
44:38
often works and how cults often work
44:40
they kind of separate themselves from
44:41
the larger quote-unquote mainstream
44:44
society
44:45
they build their own institutions they
44:48
teach their adherence to distrust the
44:51
experts
44:52
and the sources of information in the
44:54
mainstream
44:56
and then they give them worked out
44:57
explanations of why the mainstream sees
45:00
things the way that they do
45:02
so that when their adherents encounter
45:04
mainstream
45:05
expertise and whatever they have uh they
45:07
have a ready way to explain it away they
45:09
don't have to take it seriously
45:11
because it's already been explained for
45:12
them by their
45:14
religious authority um so you know the
45:17
leaders within the bubble
45:18
are touted as the best in the world and
45:22
you know they're probably smarter than
45:23
the average layperson for sure
45:25
and so when the layperson goes out into
45:26
the world and meets other experts they
45:28
can't tell the difference they can't
45:30
tell
45:30
you know who's a genuine expert who
45:32
isn't and they've been told to distrust
45:34
those other ones and so it's just sort
45:37
of this self-reinforcing cycle thing
45:39
and what you get is this really insular
45:42
and really really over
45:44
confident kind of theology
45:47
that the outside world views as a joke
45:50
and
45:50
inside it you can't understand why it's
45:52
viewed as a joke so here's a
45:54
little microcosm of what i mean so
45:57
we don't have to talk at length about
45:59
this issue but it's just a good example
46:01
you mentioned the ark thing earlier so i
46:04
was
46:05
you know i grew up in a play in an arab
46:07
part of the country where
46:08
young earth creationism which is the
46:10
view that the earth is
46:12
six to ten thousand years old and they
46:15
get that date from
46:16
a particular reading of the bible it's
46:19
just taken for granted that's
46:21
it's just in the soil almost i mean i
46:23
didn't know anyone growing up who didn't
46:26
take that view and if you look at the
46:27
polls a shocking number of americans
46:29
still take that view
46:32
and if you if you talk to a pastor
46:36
in that kind of culture
46:39
about that specific issue probably
46:41
they're going to point you if you have
46:42
questions
46:43
they're going to point you to one of a
46:44
handful of quote unquote
46:47
creation science organizations and then
46:50
you're going to go and you're going to
46:50
read their material and you're going to
46:52
get this idea
46:53
that this is just obvious that anybody
46:56
who was rational
46:57
and honest would take this view
47:00
and then you want you might wonder if
47:02
you're a thoughtful person well then how
47:04
come
47:05
all the scientists how come everybody
47:07
outside of our community
47:09
how come they don't take that view and
47:11
the answer
47:12
the very ready explanation is
47:15
they're dishonest or they're sinful
47:18
or they're somehow out together the
47:20
devil is deceitful
47:21
yeah they can't help it satan just has
47:24
them their minds have been clouded
47:26
right and it never occurs
47:29
to these uh seemingly anyway the kenham
47:32
types right
47:33
seemingly never occurs to them that
47:35
maybe the problem
47:36
might lie on the other side of that
47:39
equation it's just an extreme
47:40
overconfidence
47:41
uh about what they claim to know and
47:44
that's something that as a philosopher
47:45
obviously really
47:47
really rubs me the wrong way and and
47:48
from that you get this sense that
47:50
evangelicals feel like they are the best
47:53
or maybe even the only
47:55
representation of the church because
47:57
nobody else understands it quite as well
48:00
our interactions with anybody on the
48:02
outside are going to be mediated through
48:04
conversion we're trying to get you to
48:06
think like us and if you don't
48:08
well we have to sever ties yeah now
48:10
let's be clear
48:12
we're talking about extremes here right
48:14
so many evangelicals would say
48:16
we're the only show in town we're the
48:17
only true believers that's that's
48:19
language that many evangelicals use
48:21
but i have many evangelical friends and
48:23
peers and colleagues
48:24
who would never in the millionaire say
48:26
that i have evangelical
48:28
pastor friends who you know they have to
48:31
unfortunately they feel like they have
48:33
to hide from their church that they do
48:34
the catholic hours every day
48:35
and they're beautiful because they've
48:37
resonated with that liturgical
48:38
form of prayer in in profound ways and
48:41
who
48:42
profoundly honor other traditions they
48:45
just find themselves in the evangelical
48:46
one there are plenty of good
48:47
evangelicals
48:48
um it's just the bad ones are so damn
48:51
loud
48:52
and so dang weighty that they kind of
48:55
just tilt the scales and the world
48:57
around us sees those ones they don't see
48:59
the thoughtful
49:00
you know kind gracious loving
49:02
evangelicals they see the
49:04
the the crazy uncle evangelicals yeah
49:06
yeah and you know
49:08
speaking from my academic perspective
49:10
those
49:11
what you call the crazy uncles they are
49:13
still largely the gatekeepers
49:15
at most of the evangelical schools sure
49:19
and those schools have a lot of money
49:20
and a lot of influence
49:22
and you know there are exceptions and i
49:24
myself have quite a few friends who are
49:26
evangelical academics and
49:27
you know i respect them and they would
49:29
not be accurately described by what i
49:31
was just talking about
49:32
yeah but for me at the end of the day i
49:34
it comes down to this question
49:36
is there enough that is good and
49:38
distinctive
49:39
about evangelicalism to justify
49:43
ignoring all of that and at the end of
49:47
the day to me the answer is no because
49:48
everything that's good about it can be
49:50
found somewhere else uh
49:52
all the all the four things we talked
49:54
about you know all the
49:55
the great things that we like about its
49:57
history i mean that stuff
49:59
isn't unique to evangelicalism it's also
50:01
available in catholicism it's also
50:03
available in mainline protestant
50:04
christianity
50:05
it's available in orthodoxy you know
50:09
yep and yeah i mean that's that's i
50:11
would say why
50:12
i'm not why i was for so long
50:15
uncomfortable with jumping
50:16
out of evangelicalism is because i
50:18
didn't see and what for me would be a
50:20
viable
50:20
alternative i love catholics but i'm not
50:23
interested in being one i
50:25
i'm i love episcopalians i'm not
50:27
interested in being one i love the
50:28
methodists
50:28
i'm not interested in in being one
50:31
that's been the problem for me i
50:32
haven't seen something for us to land in
50:34
for me to land in
50:36
and that's where though as in
50:37
conversation with some of our church
50:39
leaders it's just been
50:40
what if should we just call ourselves
50:43
christians what if we just kind of
50:44
hearken back to the early church and
50:46
call ourselves followers of the way of
50:48
jesus and we don't
50:49
have to have a label or a new thing or
50:52
an old tradition to jump into we can
50:54
just follow that old tradition that is
50:56
following the way of jesus
50:57
now so play devil's advocate just a
51:00
little bit if that's okay
51:02
so like younger me would say well
51:05
isn't that just cut either isn't that
51:08
just sort of avoiding some important
51:10
questions
51:10
or maybe it's just taking a stance on
51:12
some important questions without
51:14
admitting which stance you're taking so
51:16
for example
51:17
a non-denominational church right
51:19
there's bunches of non-denominational
51:21
mega churches for example
51:22
within evangelicalism and without fail
51:26
the pastors and the leaders at that
51:28
autonomous
51:29
non-denominational mega church they have
51:31
opinions
51:32
on theological questions and if you were
51:34
to write those opinions out
51:36
you could probably match those opinions
51:38
up to one of the main
51:40
already existing denominations which
51:42
makes you wonder well why not just call
51:44
yourself
51:44
that right why separate yourself from
51:48
that rich history
51:49
so what do you i don't know what do you
51:51
what do you think about that is there an
51:52
importance in attaching yourself to
51:54
a historical tradition that you actually
51:57
do line up most closely with in your
51:58
theology
51:59
or is it best to just say we're just
52:02
christian
52:03
uh yes and no i mean i think first of
52:06
all
52:06
as you were talking about
52:07
non-denominational it made me think
52:09
again that
52:10
we might have to also drop that
52:11
non-denominational title because that's
52:13
what people see on the internet
52:15
and as soon as people in our culture and
52:16
world c non-denominational they
52:18
instantly think evangelical that's a
52:21
non-denominational is actually a
52:22
denomination
52:23
now right yeah so so that's another
52:26
problem for us that we'll have to
52:28
work our way through but what i would
52:30
say is
52:31
we're not creating something new we're
52:34
actually trying to
52:35
be something a lot more ancient and i
52:38
would also say
52:39
just because we don't identify as
52:41
methodist or presbyterian
52:43
or lutheran or you know
52:46
episcopal catholic we see all of that
52:49
within our family
52:51
even evangelicals to be honest with you
52:53
like they're the crazy uncles
52:55
but we they're still part of the family
52:56
you can't get rid of them right
52:58
our family is not defined by the tribe
53:00
that we identify with or
53:02
that denomination christianity is this
53:04
rich
53:05
huge tense that has all sorts of
53:08
traditions within it
53:10
all sorts of cultures within it i mean
53:13
anglicanism is different in africa than
53:15
it is in the uk than it is
53:16
in the u.s that's just the beauty of
53:19
christianity is this this litany of
53:21
voices
53:22
in this diversity of of ways of going
53:24
about it
53:25
and that's the that's the messiness of
53:27
it as well but that i think that's still
53:29
beautiful and so i would say we
53:30
identify as family with all of those
53:33
traditions
53:34
we're just walking in the way of jesus
53:35
in this way that we feel like is most
53:37
honoring to the gospels in our context
53:40
right here in milwaukee wisconsin
53:42
hmm what would your old self say to that
53:45
i i think i'm okay with that yeah and
53:47
i'm not my even young guy
53:48
so who cares i'm okay with it now
53:52
yeah i liked young kyle too but i like
53:53
you better now well here's what my
53:55
current self would say about it i'm not
53:56
necessarily convinced anymore that
53:58
church bodies ought to define themselves
54:00
according to what they're
54:01
what they're doctrinally committed to so
54:03
that to me
54:04
now seems like a mistake and and that is
54:07
the distinction between the traditional
54:09
denominations its doctrinal commitments
54:11
so
54:12
if we're trying to move more towards
54:14
something along the lines of our
54:15
practice and being unified despite our
54:18
differences
54:19
then i'm all about that yep so as a
54:22
formerly evangelical
54:24
pastor what would you say is the future
54:26
if you had to predict
54:27
what does the future of of
54:28
evangelicalism look like
54:33
i honestly think that we're seeing the
54:36
not even the first fruits but we're
54:38
we're into this journey we're past the
54:41
introduction to it
54:42
we're past the the first couple hours of
54:44
it if we're taking a road trip
54:47
into the evangelical church turning into
54:49
a very
54:50
niche christian circle i
54:53
i look at my kids and my kids my oldest
54:55
is 13 my youngest is eight and i look at
54:57
my two oldest in particular
54:59
and i can tell you that my daughter if
55:01
if the church doesn't talk about race
55:03
and equality
55:04
which in from in seven years from now
55:06
when she's gonna be
55:08
making this her own she will want
55:10
nothing to do with it and i think
55:12
it seems like the chur the evangelical
55:14
church the extremes of it especially
55:16
are more and more disassociating
55:17
themselves with anything that has to do
55:19
with racial equality
55:20
and justice and i can tell you my
55:22
daughter won't want anything to do with
55:23
even
55:24
even as a pastor's daughter my son
55:27
who loves science and is obsessed with
55:29
science and biology
55:31
if he has to believe that the earth is
55:33
six to ten thousand years old
55:34
he will not want anything to do with it
55:36
i can see it in him now as an 11 year
55:38
old
55:39
and i guarantee you as an 18 20 25 year
55:42
old
55:42
he'll see that it is irrelevant and
55:44
won't want anything to do with it so i
55:45
think that's where evangelicalism is
55:46
going because i don't see
55:48
much changing in that regard so i see it
55:50
as a sinking ship
55:51
and then i see maybe evangelicalism goes
55:53
from this big titanic ship
55:55
that has hit the glacier it's like that
55:58
already happened
55:59
now we're in the process of going down
56:00
and i think evangelicalism will turn
56:02
into lifeboats
56:03
it'll just turn into a smaller niche
56:05
kind of inbred
56:06
group of people and by inbred i mean no
56:08
one's going to want to come into
56:09
evangelicals and on his own
56:11
they're going to have to keep it going
56:13
by having more babies
56:15
kind of like mormonism sorry for mormon
56:17
friends but
56:18
it's going to be ironically mormons are
56:20
in many ways more progressive today than
56:22
evangelicals are but that's
56:23
that's a separate episode yeah but i
56:25
know from having mormon friends like
56:27
mormons are encouraged to have more and
56:29
more babies
56:30
because that's the way that they're
56:31
growing the church and i think that's
56:32
the way the evangelical church will get
56:34
by and large the outside world will see
56:35
it as kind of you described it which
56:37
haunts me kyle
56:38
but and i've never heard anybody compare
56:40
the evangelical church to a cult
56:42
but it fits the bill and i think that's
56:44
where we're headed
56:48
it seems like there's a evangelicalism
56:50
as
56:51
a movement too as it's on the move and
56:53
so this
56:54
this feeling this need that we need to
56:57
separate ourselves from it you know some
56:59
of that is is us undocking but there's
57:01
some of it is just work we're getting
57:03
off
57:05
stop the bus we need to get off and this
57:06
thing is going to keep going uh further
57:08
and further down this journey and it
57:09
seems like it's condensing towards
57:12
you know it's that that generic distrust
57:14
of
57:15
uh mainstream science like that was
57:16
always part of my experience and and
57:19
the the way that i was taught but for
57:22
that to
57:23
crystallize into like i never knew how
57:26
to say fake news
57:27
like it's so it's so quick and so easy
57:29
and
57:30
it's applicable to everything and so so
57:32
now they're
57:33
they're these simple uh simple ways to
57:35
write off
57:36
things that are outside of uh our
57:38
comfort zone
57:40
and it seems like it's just it's just
57:42
getting uh narrower and narrower and
57:44
more and more
57:45
crystallized as it gathers around some
57:47
of it's gathering around political power
57:48
some of it it just seems to be around
57:50
around the language and as as the camp
57:53
gets smaller
57:54
uh the circle's tightening and yeah so
57:57
it feels like the
57:58
the movement itself is on a trajectory
58:01
um and randy i think that's what you're
58:02
describing too but it's it's not like
58:04
it's this static thing that we're
58:06
walking away from either
58:07
yep and i will say i think you'll see
58:10
more and more churches like us
58:13
have to have this moment of
58:15
introspection of
58:17
can we stay tied to this sinking ship i
58:20
i guarantee you
58:22
we're not the first that's having this
58:23
conversation but we're among the first i
58:25
think
58:25
and i guarantee you there's going to be
58:27
more churches just like us
58:29
who have that moment where they say
58:31
where they're counting the cost for the
58:33
gospel
58:33
now i could i would i know for sure that
58:35
more pastors the evangelical pastors
58:37
would love to be having a conversation
58:38
just like this
58:40
it's just that too much of their bottom
58:41
line is tied to staying evangelical
58:43
for us we're small enough and we also
58:45
have a progressive enough
58:47
and mature enough culture that we can do
58:49
this and
58:50
we probably won't lose any if many if
58:54
any people
58:55
other churches other evangelical
58:56
churches especially the bigger ones
58:58
so much they'll have to cut they would
59:00
have to cut three quarters of their
59:01
staff
59:02
if they came out and said this what
59:03
we're saying right now that's why they
59:04
won't do it but there's gonna come a
59:06
moment i guarantee
59:07
for church after church after church to
59:09
consider
59:11
we might have to cut ties with
59:12
evangelicals and i think you're gonna
59:13
see that happening
59:14
and i think uh what's currently
59:16
happening with
59:18
race and the the george floyd protests
59:21
and everything
59:22
might be the thing that really triggers
59:26
that
59:26
yeah for for a lot of people i've seen
59:28
lots of posts on social media that say
59:30
things like
59:30
especially from black friends that say
59:32
things like if your church isn't talking
59:34
about this this sunday
59:35
leave yep just yesterday i saw a post
59:39
from a prominent
59:41
former evangelical twitter person has
59:43
large following on twitter
59:45
for the first time sort of telling his
59:46
story about why he left the church that
59:48
he did
59:49
and it was because he was black and he
59:51
would talk about being black
59:52
and his you know his church leadership
59:54
explicitly said
59:56
don't do that that in fact they said uh
59:59
that's the sin of pride
60:01
yep and he just couldn't take it anymore
60:03
and so
60:05
yeah i think this might be the tipping
60:06
point for a lot of those churches
60:08
and the ones that resist and hold on
60:12
we'll just see a slow attrition because
60:15
you know
60:15
the next generation doesn't think that
60:17
way my students don't think that way
60:19
your
60:19
your children don't think that way yep
60:22
yeah
60:22
absolutely i hope you're right that
60:24
there's a catalyst to some change
60:26
but when i think about the
60:30
uh maybe it's just the loudest fringe
60:31
but the the individuals that that i see
60:34
still driving that movement
60:36
the the slow attrition feels like a more
60:38
realistic path i hope i'm wrong i hope i
60:40
hope
60:41
what you're what you're saying that
60:42
there that there's maybe still time
60:44
that that plays out well i think i do
60:47
think there's a
60:48
very big difference i know there is
60:51
between urban evangelicalisms and then
60:53
suburban evangelical
60:55
evangelicalism and then rural
60:57
evangelicalism i'm in a we're part of a
60:59
church network that has all three of
61:01
those in it
61:02
and just the response to covet even
61:05
itself
61:06
has been so telling where us is a very
61:08
urban
61:09
church are taking it very seriously and
61:12
the people in our church we have nobody
61:14
very few people have any clamoring for
61:15
us to reopening the minute we can right
61:18
the suburban context they do they have
61:20
people who
61:21
mostly careful but there are many people
61:23
who are like i'm gonna go
61:24
over to this other church because they
61:26
opened up you know and then
61:28
you have the rural ones who are saying
61:31
if you don't open up
61:32
you're not a real christian because you
61:33
have no faith and i'm a freedom fighter
61:35
right
61:36
and so i think there's the entrenchment
61:38
of evangelicalism
61:39
gets further and further and deeper and
61:41
deeper the further away you go from an
61:43
urban center yeah i think that really
61:46
matters
61:47
we should get an expert on the
61:48
urbanization of religion
61:51
and interview them that would be
61:52
fantastic here's an episode yeah yeah
61:55
i do want to say before this we're done
61:57
with this episode that there might be
61:59
some of you who
62:00
are exactly where we're talking about
62:03
you're resonating with what we're
62:04
talking about you're wondering why you
62:06
haven't heard this before maybe even
62:08
um and you're you've been seeing it as
62:11
an evangelical
62:12
evangelicalism or nothing kind of
62:15
situation or you've
62:16
resonated with where we are with don't
62:18
really fit in the catholic world don't
62:19
really fit in high church
62:21
but certainly need to be done with
62:22
evangelicalism and so you're just gonna
62:24
getting ready to pitch it all i get you
62:26
i have many friends like that
62:28
i know where where that is i want to
62:30
encourage you you don't have to leave
62:32
the way of jesus
62:33
because you're leaving evangelicalism
62:35
that just you don't have to do it
62:37
jesus is beautiful on his own with or
62:40
without this tribe that is maybe
62:42
made him look ugly just look back at
62:46
jesus again
62:47
look at the gospels in their purest
62:49
sense of what they are
62:51
and there are people like out there like
62:53
that that you'll resonate with there are
62:55
other churches in other cities who bring
62:58
that
62:58
beautiful gospel uniqueness and richness
63:01
look for it but don't give up on jesus
63:03
because you're ready to give up on
63:04
evangelicals
63:05
please it's hard to overemphasize that
63:10
that's that's been the the saddest part
63:13
for me about the decline of
63:14
evangelicalism well i guess there's
63:18
it's it's the two two sides of the
63:20
saddest part it's seeing
63:22
my my sunday school teachers my
63:26
uh my mentors my relatives who
63:31
who have followed evangelicalism into a
63:33
really dark place that it is now
63:36
and then on the other side to know my
63:38
friends who who
63:40
couldn't find their place in the church
63:41
who felt outcast
63:43
because of their orientation or because
63:46
of their color
63:47
or who just couldn't be a part of
63:49
something that was so grounded in fear
63:51
and hatred
63:52
and and so to see
63:56
it's it's life but but it all comes into
63:59
stark
64:00
relief in the social media feed seeing
64:02
these two groups
64:04
crying out against each other and and
64:06
yet to say
64:08
this this isn't jesus this isn't what
64:11
it's supposed to
64:12
be to those friends who have left the
64:14
church there
64:15
promised there's something still here
64:16
this is this
64:18
there's beauty even though it's really
64:21
hard to
64:22
hear that see that sometimes over the
64:24
volume of the church itself
64:26
the evangelical church itself yeah and
64:29
this might seem
64:31
this might seem pompous but i'm going to
64:32
say it if there's any church leaders
64:34
listening
64:35
this is the real state of things if
64:38
there are evangelical pastors listening
64:40
who have been restless with the
64:41
evangelical movement and label
64:43
similarly to what i have this is real
64:47
we are losing a whole demographic
64:50
and they're leaving the church and they
64:52
don't want anything to do with it
64:54
in the future because of what our tribe
64:56
has done to it
64:58
and friends if that's if we're church
65:00
leaders
65:01
let's be beholden to the gospel more
65:03
than we are paycheck
65:05
i know that that's dangerous to say i
65:07
know that it's
65:08
easy to say when my paycheck isn't is
65:10
isn't on the line but
65:12
it could be and i want i
65:15
i like to hope to think that i have more
65:16
integrity to the in
65:18
and follow jesus in a in a way that says
65:21
i would i would be willing to get
65:22
another job
65:23
and have this be my side hustle because
65:25
i did that for the first five years of
65:27
doing this
65:27
have this be a side hustle that i do for
65:29
free because i'm so committed to the
65:31
gospel i will not
65:32
let a whole generation just in the
65:35
future of the church
65:36
walk out the doors because we weren't
65:38
willing to say the truth
65:40
we can do better yeah i'll just
65:43
add this one thing my encouragement
65:46
to people who are struggling with what
65:49
kind of christian can i be
65:50
now and wondering what the church is
65:52
going to look like in the future i would
65:54
say
65:55
watch for the holy spirit
65:58
watch for where the holy spirit shows up
66:02
and you might be surprised because the
66:04
fruits of the spirit have not changed
66:06
right they're the same
66:06
list of things they were 2 000 years ago
66:09
and it seems to me that if you look for
66:10
the evidence
66:12
of god's spirit in a community the
66:15
places where it shows up most for me
66:16
right now
66:17
are the marginalized so it's my
66:19
suspicion
66:21
that the future of
66:24
an activist church is probably in the
66:27
black community
66:28
it's probably in the lgbtq community
66:31
it's probably in
66:32
native american communities so
66:36
yeah watch for the work of the spirit
66:37
that would be my
66:42
[Music]
66:44
recommendation
66:51
[Music]
67:19
so i will say this much for
67:21
evangelicalism particularly the
67:23
evangelicals that i view as really
67:26
thoughtful
67:26
and really careful and trying to do
67:28
their best within
67:30
perhaps not the best framework um there
67:32
is a kind of zealotry
67:33
that goes along with being an
67:35
evangelical maybe it's rooted in its
67:37
history and the
67:38
you know the wesleyan tradition perhaps
67:40
um but
67:41
they're really committed and passionate
67:44
about people experiencing god uh and i
67:46
think
67:47
even if it's couched in some some
67:49
unfortunate language
67:51
even if it is based on some you know
67:54
shoddy expertise even if it doesn't
67:56
necessarily
67:57
have the most progressive social view uh
67:59
evangelicalism has a fervor to it a
68:01
passion to it that if we could translate
68:03
it to
68:04
a more progressive outlook could could
68:07
do a lot of good socially
68:09
so absolutely i'll give them that much
68:11
yep
68:12
yeah in i mean speaking of
68:14
evangelicalism and what it's
68:16
done to to sully the gospel i will say
68:19
that evangelical churches
68:23
are responsible for a lot of the relief
68:25
efforts happening around the world in
68:26
third world nations right now
68:28
whether or not i agree with samaritan's
68:30
purse's theology which i absolutely do
68:32
not and whether
68:33
whether or not i agree with all their
68:34
methodology which i absolutely do not
68:37
you'll see i remember seeing five years
68:39
ago when the refugee crisis happened
68:41
that samaritan's purse was standing on
68:43
the greek isles
68:45
with resources and supplies for refugees
68:48
fleeing their current situation and i
68:50
that that was a convicting moment for me
68:52
i've done plenty of slamming of
68:54
franklin graham and will continue to do
68:55
so but good on him for
68:58
for being there being the first to greet
69:00
these refugees with resources
69:02
and care and love that's we can't deny
69:05
that that also
69:06
reminds me of chuck coulson in his uh
69:09
prison ministry if you remember that
69:10
absolutely somebody who i would
69:12
passionately disagree with about the
69:13
relationship between politics
69:15
and faith but you cannot deny that you
69:18
know
69:18
the man did a thing that other other
69:20
christians were unwilling to do
69:22
yep and many evangelical churches now
69:25
have a prison ministry yeah
69:26
not to mention all the good focus on the
69:28
family has done
69:39
did you go to the adventures in odyssey
69:41
there's a slide that goes outside the
69:43
building
69:43
we did yeah because the the show
69:47
what was it called um adventures in
69:49
odyssey yeah yeah yeah
69:50
the mr whitaker right he was the oh i
69:53
still love that
69:54
we really identified with the i can't
69:57
throw out mr whitaker
69:58
i read all the little books yeah i never
70:01
experienced that as a kid but
70:02
we we started having our kids listen to
70:04
those just because they're cute and fun
70:07
and i'm down with mr whitaker and the
70:09
adventures in odyssey i remember being
70:10
sweet and fun and i don't remember any
70:12
of the theological content and
70:14
i don't know how much uh dobson actually
70:16
had oversight of that but
70:18
everything i remember that was directly
70:20
connected to him now seems to me
70:22
deeply damaging oh yeah but i also know
70:26
there was like some
70:28
some disagreement within the ministry
70:30
like between him and some of the
70:31
leadership that took over
70:33
when he got a little older because i
70:35
used to read their um
70:37
they had they did a movie reviews
70:40
for for people that were afraid of
70:43
r-rated movies and content
70:45
so fun but they they presented
70:47
themselves as actual reviews
70:49
that then also just mentioned here's the
70:51
stuff you can
70:52
so it wasn't just here's how many naked
70:54
scenes there are it was an actual
70:56
supposedly like artistic review of the
70:58
whatever
70:59
and i remember they gave a positive
71:00
review i don't remember the movie though
71:03
it was a movie that i liked and i didn't
71:05
think it was even
71:06
close to the line and then dobson
71:09
stepped in
71:10
and was like nope this is a [ __ ] movie
71:12
no one should watch this it's
71:14
dangerous and they had to like kind of
71:17
apologize
71:20
those are the ones where it's like it's
71:21
you know it's meant to make it so that
71:22
you don't have to
71:24
uh subject your family to this stuff but
71:26
but then the review reads
71:27
like erotica is like it's like so like
71:30
that's a backfire if you
71:32
if you go into like at the 56 minute
71:34
mark like you can see a little bit of
71:36
nip
71:37
through the sheer and suddenly
71:41
[Laughter]
71:46
so my childhood experience of focus on
71:50
the family i mean we lived in colorado
71:51
springs for a while so i've got some
71:52
memories of like being in the um
71:55
the imagination station uh yeah slipped
71:58
my head for a moment
71:59
uh but uh but then like years later
72:03
uh listening to i i actually like took
72:06
out a car stereo speaker and i
72:08
put it inside of my pillow at night and
72:10
so i would listen to the radio
72:11
um and like nobody else could hear it my
72:14
parents didn't know that i did it but i
72:15
write it in and so i listened to um ktis
72:19
the christian radio station out of the
72:20
twin cities and
72:20
at nine o'clock it was chuck swindoll
72:22
and i would kind of just like you know
72:23
bear through that because i was
72:25
i was looking like it would get more
72:26
interesting when focus on the family
72:28
would come and like dobson would
72:30
talk through whatever dangerous bill to
72:33
allow same-sex marriage was
72:34
on the docket and like what we should do
72:37
and then i would i would switch
72:38
down to uh to cities 97 at 10
72:41
for the love line with uh adam and dr
72:44
drew
72:45
nice and so then that was kind of the
72:47
sex ed portion of the evening
72:51
which explains a lot earlier almost
72:54
everything i know about sex came from
72:56
that show
72:57
dr drew did you ever listen to dobson's
73:00
actual sex
73:00
ed like no curriculum
73:04
i'm surprised my parents didn't put that
73:05
in front of me this is how my dad like
73:07
did the birds and the bees with me
73:09
which i was old enough at that point
73:11
that it it didn't seem like news but
73:13
yeah we went for a long car ride and he
73:14
popped in these cassette tapes of
73:17
chainstops oh goodness
73:20
i wonder how many people had that same
73:22
exact experience
73:23
probably a lot yeah praise the lord
73:27
yeah i think less of this is going to
73:28
get edited out than you guys think
73:31
i was just thinking you just made it
73:32
really we had a nice clean
73:34
episode as far as editing and then you
73:36
just messed everything up for yourself
73:39
oh it's worth it
73:48
thanks for listening we hope you enjoyed
73:50
this conversation you can find us on
73:51
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73:52
like and share and subscribe wherever
73:55
you get your podcasts
73:56
if you're inclined to leave a review we
73:58
read through all of those and we love
73:59
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74:00
till next time this has been a pastor
74:02
and a philosopher
74:03
walking to a bar
74:14
[Music]