In this episode Randy, Kyle, and Elliot tackle the thorny issues of patriotism, nationalism, and their relationship to the American Christian church. They don't pull any punches.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Stagg Jr. by Buffalo Trace Distillery.
In this episode Randy, Kyle, and Elliot tackle the thorny issues of patriotism, nationalism, and their relationship to the American Christian church. They don't pull any punches.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Stagg Jr. by Buffalo Trace Distillery.
00:01
so let's run the race marked out for us
00:05
let's fix our eyes on old glory
00:09
and all she represents
00:13
let's fix our eyes on this land of
00:14
heroes
00:16
and let their courage inspire
00:21
and let's fix our eyes on the author and
00:24
perfecter
00:25
of our faith and our freedom
00:29
and never forget that where the spirit
00:32
of the lord is
00:34
there is freedom that means freedom
00:38
always wins
00:41
this is what happens when we give
00:43
ourselves
00:44
as a church to nationalism this is where
00:46
we wind up
00:47
we wind up in a place where we can
00:48
actually interchange
00:50
our nation which is deeply deeply flawed
00:54
with jesus himself we've gotten to a
00:56
place where we
00:57
exchange our theology for our ideology
01:00
particularly our political ideology and
01:01
we see everything through that lens it's
01:03
why so many people
01:04
have a hard time saying black lives
01:06
matter i don't believe that it's because
01:08
it's a marxist institution or because
01:10
it's it you know affirms lgbtq things or
01:13
whatever
01:13
i think it's just because we've
01:14
conflated politics with religion with
01:17
our faith
01:17
and this is what you get you get a
01:19
politician who's cow towing to a whole
01:21
group of people because he knows they're
01:23
gonna love it
01:24
and they're actually cheering and
01:26
thinking that this is
01:27
christ-like to replace christ himself
01:30
with the american flag or the nation of
01:33
america
01:33
and we think freedom means what we as
01:35
americans make it
01:36
this to me is reprehensible and again
01:40
regardless whether this was who's the
01:42
vice president
01:43
kamala harris or mike pence it's
01:46
in my eyes as one who let's put this in
01:49
their quotes has a high view of
01:51
scripture
01:52
this is just unacceptable
01:57
so you're saying you no longer has your
01:58
vote
01:59
[Music]
01:59
[Laughter]
02:01
no longer yeah
02:08
[Music]
02:12
welcome to a pastor and a philosopher
02:14
walk into a bar
02:15
the podcast where we mix a sometimes
02:17
weird but always delicious cocktail of
02:19
theology philosophy
02:20
and spirituality
02:23
[Music]
02:27
well welcome friends on this episode of
02:29
a pastor and a philosopher welcome to a
02:30
bar
02:31
we're considering the contentious and
02:33
controversial question of
02:34
nationalism and patriotism and its
02:37
relationship to the christian church
02:39
so it should be a fun one and since this
02:41
is a pastor and a philosopher walking to
02:43
a bar
02:43
we're not going to consider a topic like
02:45
this without something to drink by our
02:47
side
02:48
so we have here something rather special
02:51
if i do say so myself i've never tried
02:54
this what is this
02:55
so this is a bourbon called stag junior
02:59
now randy you facilitated my wedding
03:03
to my dear wife emily facilitated the
03:06
venue
03:06
yeah well you what i don't what do you
03:08
call it i don't know officially the guy
03:10
that talked
03:10
officiated there we go uh and we had
03:13
we had that wedding at the distillery
03:15
where this was made
03:16
so buffalo trace distillery in frankfurt
03:19
kentucky was this the bourbon that you
03:20
had behind the bar for the special
03:22
people
03:23
that was something even more special
03:24
okay maybe we'll get to that one later
03:26
on
03:28
so this one is it's called stag junior
03:31
has a really cool
03:33
bottle you guys can't see it but uh that
03:35
is cool
03:36
yeah junior because there is
03:39
a really high-end bourbon that buffalo
03:41
trace makes called george t
03:43
stag that's part of their antique
03:46
collection it's impossible to find it
03:48
sells for hundreds and hundreds of
03:49
dollars
03:50
on hundreds and hundreds urban market
03:52
yeah i saw it sell today for four
03:54
hundred and fifty dollars
03:56
junior is a younger version it doesn't
04:00
have an age statement but we know it's
04:01
younger
04:02
uh it's cask strength so just like
04:04
george t stag is this one
04:06
we're drinking comes in at 66.05 percent
04:09
wow so it'll be really strong really hot
04:13
and it has a similar flavor profile in
04:14
general to the george t stag
04:16
but it's significantly cheaper although
04:18
now that people are catching on to it
04:20
it also sells for quite a bit and it's
04:22
very difficult to find
04:24
smells delicious i mean it smells hot
04:27
smells like
04:28
cherries oak yeah smells rich and deep
04:35
i love this bourbon
04:38
oh this is really nice yeah this might
04:40
be my favorite so far
04:42
it tastes luxurious to me it's hot
04:45
very warm like a first class um airplane
04:48
seat
04:50
nicely done yeah that's so complex
04:53
there's something i've noticed about the
04:54
george t stag too if which if you ever
04:56
get a chance to taste it you absolutely
04:57
should
04:58
it's very strong very hot but i don't
05:00
want to cut it with water
05:03
because it's already so complicated and
05:05
complex and interesting it's kind of
05:06
it's woody mossy
05:10
back of the tongue with the fruit the
05:11
dark fruits there's just a lot going on
05:13
there
05:15
yep corn dog
05:18
don't look at me like that the only
05:20
thing i don't like about it is that it's
05:23
so strong that it's hard to really
05:25
really taste it
05:26
it'll yeah it's definitely a got a punch
05:29
to it
05:30
my least favorite part is the size of
05:31
this pour
05:33
very small should have been more
05:38
generous
05:39
well friends we as kyle said are talking
05:42
about
05:42
patriotism and nationalism today
05:46
these are not new topics these are not
05:48
new concepts but
05:50
we as a culture seem to keep getting
05:52
tripped up on them
05:54
particularly as a church culture and
05:55
really to be honest with you
05:57
the main reason why we're doing this
05:58
topic today is because elliott wouldn't
06:01
let us not
06:02
do it we got more than a few text
06:04
messages from elliott
06:06
ideas about what that could look like so
06:08
elliot
06:09
tell us why you wanted to why you who
06:11
were hassling us
06:12
into doing this topic yeah well i can't
06:15
figure this one out
06:16
like i've been i think the first text
06:18
came one night i was driving out to
06:20
pick something up on facebook
06:21
marketplace and i passed a bunch of
06:23
houses that had american flags and we
06:24
were thinking a lot about
06:26
our our house the front of our house is
06:28
like that would look nice but i
06:30
i noticed this visceral reaction like
06:33
deep down inside it's just like i
06:35
i can't put an american flag on the
06:36
front of my house and i i question that
06:38
though because that's
06:40
like that's that's weird like this is a
06:42
this is a great country and
06:44
people gave so many great sacrifices for
06:47
this flag you know some of my relatives
06:50
among them and
06:51
and yet when it comes down to it it's
06:53
come to represent something so different
06:55
in my experience
06:57
i want to love this country and what
06:59
that flag represents and all of the good
07:02
um but but yeah it's almost to the point
07:04
where the flag is it's like a
07:05
political statement yeah and
07:09
it doesn't represent a nation so much as
07:12
it represents an ideology
07:13
perhaps yeah it does like it so i'm
07:15
curious elliot
07:17
would would you hang a christian flag in
07:19
front of your house
07:19
[Laughter]
07:22
only if it's like three inches lower
07:23
than the american flag because nothing
07:26
right that's that's what they taught us
07:28
an awana at least
07:37
not a chance not a chance no way no and
07:39
for no other we want to probe
07:41
that and because i wouldn't either and i
07:43
suspect the reasons are similar in both
07:45
cases
07:46
i would never do that for one thing the
07:49
christian flag is
07:50
tacky the american flag is pretty like
07:52
that's a good looking flag we got
07:54
isn't the christian aesthetics aside
07:58
christian flag white white as snow with
08:00
like a little design in the corner
08:02
the blue yeah but like basically a
08:05
surrender flag other than that
08:07
that's good that's jesus theme yes
08:11
timely so you want to hear us talk about
08:13
patriotism and nationalism
08:14
so this is the part where now i get to
08:15
be the producer again sit back and just
08:18
be in the room uh and i'll just chip in
08:20
with the questions when i feel like it
08:21
but yeah now
08:22
now's the part where you explain it to
08:23
me until it makes perfect sense
08:25
so thanks in advance excellent
08:29
well mr philosopher what is how would
08:32
you describe
08:33
nationalism patriotism's softer
08:36
nationalism's harder right
08:38
well that's that seems to be a common
08:41
usage now like if you look these words
08:42
up in a dictionary
08:44
nationalism patriotism they'll be
08:46
synonyms they'll have
08:48
pretty much the same definition so you
08:50
could use them interchangeably
08:52
right i don't think you can yeah like
08:54
one like one of the
08:56
one of the nuances of nationalism is
08:59
that it might be a stronger form of
09:00
patriotism
09:01
but often they get used interchangeably
09:03
so like the first definition of each one
09:05
in a dictionary would probably be more
09:07
or less the same thing
09:08
if you look them up in a thesaurus each
09:10
one will have the other one listed as a
09:11
synonym
09:12
you're getting fact checked as you speak
09:14
oh good good
09:16
but in like in common usage and
09:18
definitely in how i think about it
09:20
it does seem like nationalism has more
09:22
of a negative connotation
09:24
and patriotism is something that's ideal
09:26
that you should aim for that like
09:28
every every good american is patriotic
09:31
but not every good american is
09:34
nationalistic
09:35
if that makes sense yeah i mean so
09:37
patriotism to me seems like
09:38
love of country pride in my country um
09:42
i'm patriotic when i i mean you can say
09:44
you're patriotic when you vote when you
09:46
do your civic duty
09:47
um that's being patriotic but it's also
09:48
when you fl when you fly the flag when
09:51
you
09:52
you know sing i'm proud to be an
09:53
american yep stand for the anthem
09:55
yeah and then nationalism though to me
09:57
seems to be more related to
09:59
i care only about the united states of
10:01
america and
10:03
i actually want to spend our dollars
10:05
take them away from what we do
10:07
how we support other nations and support
10:10
our nation it's time we focused on our
10:12
nation that seems like
10:13
would you say that the kind of america
10:16
first
10:16
idea where because i'm an american the
10:20
interests of my country come before the
10:22
interests of any other country
10:23
would you put that under the umbrella of
10:25
nationalism or the umbrella of
10:26
patriotism or both
10:28
nationalism so i looked it up patriotism
10:30
is just basically
10:32
strong pride and vigorous support of
10:34
your of your country
10:36
and then nationalism is the same it
10:38
starts out
10:39
identification with one's own with one's
10:42
own nation and support for its interests
10:44
especially to the exclusion or detriment
10:46
of the other interests
10:47
of other nations so it is really kind of
10:50
so we add in that kind of exclusionary
10:52
thing and suddenly we're at
10:53
we're at nationalism correct and i would
10:55
say in the church
10:57
because i'm a church guy nationalism
10:59
looks like
11:01
considering nationalism looks like
11:04
considering the interests of america
11:06
over and above jesus over and above the
11:08
church
11:09
considering identifying myself
11:12
more as an american or more as a
11:16
political party american than as a
11:18
follower of jesus we would never say
11:20
that but you see that all over the place
11:22
so this is really interesting it's
11:25
nationalism
11:26
and patriotism both fly the same flag
11:28
and but but it seems like that flag
11:31
uh especially in certain contexts like
11:34
for instance if i'm if i'm
11:35
if i'm on twitter and i see an american
11:36
flag in somebody's twitter bio
11:38
like i know what they're referring to
11:40
and it's not patriotism
11:42
uh at least by my definition uh
11:46
it it feels like that's often impaired
11:47
that's another thing to put it on your
11:48
11:49
yeah there's degrees that's for sure
11:53
yeah
11:55
or your truck if it's the back window of
11:58
your truck
11:58
that's the next level so
12:02
do you think maybe i'll be showing my
12:04
cards a little bit here but
12:06
do you think there's a positive
12:08
worthwhile
12:09
valuable form of patriotism
12:12
yes something that's that's ideal and
12:14
that
12:16
we're going to talk about the
12:17
relationship to christianity and the
12:18
church in a few minutes but like
12:20
something that it would be totally okay
12:22
for a christian to really get invested
12:24
in this kind of
12:26
country feeling you know what i mean
12:29
yeah i would say i would i would say yes
12:32
so what does that look like
12:33
because i'm deeply suspicious of that
12:35
sure let me tell you how
12:36
i feel like um i wouldn't
12:40
i'm not gonna say i feel like a patriot
12:41
but i'm ways in which i'm patriotic
12:44
right first thing is i'm the son of an
12:46
immigrant
12:47
my mom comes from was born and raised in
12:49
finland moved here when she was just
12:51
just about 20 and they were my f my
12:55
mom's family were
12:56
elated to come to america they were
13:00
so excited to come to america because of
13:01
many things because
13:03
they felt like in finland they didn't
13:04
have the the complete religious freedom
13:07
to have that they would have had in
13:08
america now
13:09
finland was a democracy and all stuff
13:10
but she it's a long story that's complex
13:13
i'm just going to leave it there
13:15
but so they felt like they would have
13:16
more freedoms than they had in finland
13:18
also
13:18
just the america as i'm guessing it was
13:22
part of this america as
13:24
like the pillar of culture and
13:27
advancement and technology and science
13:30
and the influence that america had they
13:32
were really excited to be part of a
13:33
nation like that
13:35
my mom was extremely proud of
13:38
becoming an american citizen in 1984 and
13:41
voting for the first time
13:43
so i i mean i grew up with barely
13:46
understanding my grandparents
13:48
and so from from that perspective i
13:51
love being part of a nation that has the
13:53
history and heritage
13:55
of what our the plaque at the bottom of
13:56
the statue of liberty says
13:58
give me your poor you're tired you're i
14:00
mean that's that's the coolest
14:02
thing i've ever heard of a nation being
14:04
being founded on an idea
14:06
of just like we'll take all your refuse
14:09
we'll take all your tired
14:10
and we'll take all your poor and we're
14:12
going to be great because of it
14:14
that is incredible to me yeah i could
14:16
get behind that too
14:17
i also love i think the founding fathers
14:20
even though they were slave holders and
14:22
they were
14:22
that was that's despicable and
14:24
disgusting and were hypocritical and all
14:26
that stuff
14:28
when i read the founding documents i am
14:32
blown away by the brilliance that i find
14:34
there and
14:35
another reason why i'm patriotic and why
14:36
i think i can say with with like
14:39
a full heart i think america is the best
14:41
nation in the world
14:42
is because we can withstand a presidency
14:45
like we have right now like the founding
14:48
fathers were brilliant enough
14:49
i remember that we've seen yeah sure
14:52
fair enough
14:53
hopefully we've got just a couple months
14:54
left but
14:57
the reason that we don't have to really
14:59
really really freak out
15:00
about having someone who wants to be a
15:01
tyrant and a fascist
15:03
is because our f founding fathers were
15:06
friggin
15:06
brilliant and made it so that one person
15:09
can have all the power
15:11
and and broke down the powers in such a
15:14
really elegant way that we can actually
15:16
have
15:18
a nation that's kind of gone crazy in
15:20
some ways
15:21
and elects someone like donald trump but
15:24
yet we can actually
15:25
we have checks and balances that he
15:27
can't just do what he wants
15:29
there's i could go on and on about why
15:31
i'm really proud of my
15:33
nation of my country i can go on and on
15:35
about how i'm not proud of it
15:37
but the not proud doesn't take away from
15:40
the fact that i think
15:41
the american idea and
15:45
what this nation was founded on and the
15:47
idea that we're a nation of immigrants
15:48
and the idea that you could go
15:50
into chicago and you can find chinatown
15:53
in little
15:54
italy and all these neighborhoods the
15:56
richness of ethnicities and background
15:58
and the diversity
15:59
that we have is com very unique to
16:02
america i would say
16:03
again there's tons of reasons to hate it
16:06
but i think there are tons of reasons to
16:08
really say
16:09
i i'm a little patriotic i like this
16:11
nation
16:15
yeah i don't feel any of that
16:19
none of that really appeals to me i had
16:22
one patriotic moment in my life
16:25
and it surprised me actually that i had
16:27
it once in your life
16:28
i was part of uh and it passed pretty
16:31
quickly i was part of a
16:34
church group in college that would do a
16:36
lot of street evangelism
16:39
and we would uh travel to various places
16:42
on our spring breaks
16:43
and do evangelistic ministry i'll just
16:46
leave it at that
16:47
um and so for one of these trips we went
16:48
to washington dc to
16:50
convert all the politicians i guess i
16:52
don't know and so
16:54
we were doing our typical you know stop
16:57
people on the street to talk about jesus
16:58
thing
16:59
and super randomly a
17:03
u.s representative from texas i won't
17:06
say which one
17:07
walked by i saw what we were doing this
17:09
person is a christian
17:10
liked what we were doing and offered to
17:12
give us a private tour
17:13
of the capitol that night fun and so we
17:16
had this
17:17
this relatively small group of uh
17:20
college students
17:20
and our pastor and this congressman
17:24
and he takes us he takes us all through
17:26
congress the or the capitol building
17:28
rather
17:28
he takes on to the floor of the house
17:31
onto the floor of the senate
17:32
while they're in session so there's like
17:33
a c-span clip of me somewhere
17:36
in the house representatives father and
17:38
session and then
17:40
and he probably wasn't supposed to do
17:41
this he took us to the private chapel in
17:44
the capitol building
17:45
i don't know if you know this but
17:46
there's a private chapel that's used
17:47
only by uh congress people
17:49
and presidents and we went in there and
17:51
we had a probably half an hour prayer
17:53
session
17:54
in this private chapel with this with
17:56
this congressman
17:57
late at night at this point everybody
17:59
was gone
18:01
and there's these beautiful stained
18:02
glass windows it's like circular
18:04
you can probably find a picture of it if
18:06
you google it and i had
18:08
and we i should say we spent all day
18:10
going to these different monuments and
18:12
so i had stood in
18:13
the monument to thomas jefferson and
18:15
read all these quotes
18:16
from jefferson and he was a brilliant
18:18
guy no doubt about it and then i stood
18:20
in the lincoln memorial and i read all
18:21
these brilliant quotes from
18:22
lincoln and then you stand at the
18:24
washington monument and you look up and
18:25
it's just
18:26
you know grandeur overwhelming and then
18:28
this moment in this chapel and i thought
18:31
maybe there's something to this whole
18:34
patriotism thing
18:35
i felt a little moved if i'm honest but
18:38
now looking back on it it strikes me
18:40
that there were no black people in the
18:41
room
18:43
there were there was no mention on that
18:44
entire trip
18:46
of any of the underside
18:49
of american democracy yeah there was
18:52
there was no mention in the quotes from
18:53
jefferson
18:55
that he owned and raped his slaves
18:58
there was there was no mention of any of
19:00
the
19:01
you know the genocide against native
19:03
americans
19:04
when you're standing at the washington
19:06
monument looking up at that grandeur
19:08
that's just not present there it's very
19:11
intentionally excluded actually
19:13
from that kind of experience and so i
19:15
have a really hard time now
19:17
feeling proud to be
19:21
a recipient of a system that is so
19:24
oppressive
19:25
and has always been so oppressive it's
19:27
not like
19:28
we made some bad decisions halfway
19:30
through and got away from the ideals
19:32
and now it's bad the ideals were
19:34
intentionally designed to be oppressive
19:37
so you read the the constitution and it
19:40
sounds awesome
19:41
it's got all this stuff in there about
19:42
everybody being created equal
19:44
and everything and then you read it in
19:46
context you read a bit about the people
19:48
that wrote it and you realize they met
19:50
if you're a white dude that owns some
19:51
land
19:53
then maybe you were equal but nobody
19:55
else even counted as human
19:57
at least not as fully human so they
19:59
weren't intended to be in the scope of
20:01
that
20:02
um so even even the sort of beautiful
20:04
ideals that we we think were set up at
20:06
the beginning i no longer see as
20:07
beautiful anymore because they weren't
20:08
set up for
20:09
they were set up for people like me but
20:11
but no one else really
20:13
and i have a really hard time getting on
20:14
board with even the ideals now
20:17
if it really had been the statue of
20:19
liberty thing all the way back
20:21
that'd be one thing but that's just
20:23
anachronistic
20:24
but that really happened like we got
20:28
all the immigrants and all the people
20:30
who were desperate
20:32
in desperate places in their in their
20:34
home countries
20:35
and just gave up everything to come here
20:38
and
20:39
of course they came here and found you
20:41
know all sorts of hatred and all sorts
20:43
of exclusion and all sorts of
20:45
things but that really happened sure
20:48
yeah and of course i'm sure there were
20:50
pockets here and there where
20:52
the kind of american dream of having a
20:55
really multicultural community
20:57
where everybody has a chance to succeed
21:00
when they start with nothing
21:01
there have probably been pockets here
21:02
and there where something like that was
21:04
approximated but that's just not been
21:06
the norm for the overwhelming majority
21:09
of
21:09
immigrants and and so when i see
21:12
somebody flying the flag or
21:14
putting it on their truck or whatever it
21:16
just makes me wonder what they
21:18
what they think it represents what does
21:19
that symbol
21:21
mean to you and do you understand that
21:25
it means something entirely different
21:26
for most people
21:28
mm-hmm absolutely lived in the united
21:29
states yep i totally agree with that
21:32
here's my here's what i'm wondering kyle
21:35
you're far more liberal than i am and
21:37
what i find
21:38
in extremely
21:41
quite liberal people is an inability to
21:46
look at an issue and and parse it as
21:49
like
21:50
good and bad it's it feels very
21:52
dualistic to me
21:53
that you wouldn't be able to say i can
21:56
celebrate the goodness and the beauty
21:58
of fill in the blank ex tonight we're
22:00
talking about
22:02
america and our nation that it's all bad
22:04
because
22:05
it's it's quite a bit bad right that
22:08
that i don't understand
22:09
yeah it's not an inability so much as a
22:13
choice
22:14
um and and many liberals i can't speak
22:16
for all liberals obviously
22:18
would say it's a forced choice because
22:20
yes it's not all bad but enough of it
22:22
was
22:23
and enough of it is um and and and those
22:26
who tend to say it's not all bad
22:28
are the recipients of the system that
22:31
was designed for
22:32
that kind of person sure so
22:36
there it's not an accident that high
22:39
levels of american patriotism
22:41
are concentrated in the white population
22:45
that if you were to survey people of
22:46
color you would notice
22:49
a lot fewer of them being patriotic that
22:52
that's by design so
22:54
yes i can recognize there are good
22:56
things
22:57
about the country there are good things
22:59
about the way it was structured just
23:01
politically speaking and there are some
23:04
good things about some of the ideals
23:06
not all of which were original to the
23:07
founding of it
23:09
but we have very rarely in our history
23:11
lived up to those ideals
23:14
it's happened but it's the exception
23:16
rather than the rule
23:18
and until it becomes the rule i have a
23:20
hard time being really gung-ho about
23:23
being a product of this
23:24
particular political system yeah
23:28
so i can't resist just for a minute i
23:30
want to go back to the mike pence quote
23:32
kyle when we were off mike a little
23:34
earlier you
23:35
had a take on this that caught me a
23:37
little off guard share that here so the
23:39
funny thing to me about this quote is
23:40
that
23:41
uh and this will come out a little more
23:42
clearly when we do our bible episodes
23:44
so stay tuned for those but uh i'm
23:47
actually okay
23:48
from like a hermeneutical perspective or
23:50
an exegetical perspective i'm okay with
23:52
this kind of use
23:53
of scripture so the kind of because
23:56
you're a heretic
23:57
farvey for me to defend mike pence okay
23:59
but uh don't don't misunderstand
24:01
but so the kind of use where you
24:04
you draw on a piece of text that you
24:07
know your audience is going to recognize
24:09
and you know they're going to recognize
24:10
it as important and you know they're
24:12
going to recognize it as
24:14
the sort of thing that they have used to
24:15
define what
24:17
what membership in their community means
24:20
and so you
24:21
you appeal to that in an obvious way
24:24
uh so you know that they're in on it
24:26
it's it's not deceptive
24:28
presumably i don't know if mike pence
24:30
whether or not it's manipulative depends
24:32
on the context right so there was
24:34
uh there's a philosopher who's gonna get
24:36
a little heady there's philosopher named
24:38
hp grice and he wrote about
24:40
norms of conversation and he said there
24:43
are certain maxims that are assumed in
24:44
conversation with people and a lot of
24:46
these depend on context so
24:48
one of them is you assume people are
24:49
going to tell you the truth when you
24:51
talk to them and you assume they're
24:52
going to give you
24:53
the right amount of information when you
24:54
talk to them that's another norm
24:56
and he says you can violate these norms
24:59
and dishonesty would be a way of
25:00
violating them
25:01
but you can also flout them which means
25:04
you violate them but the person your
25:06
audience knows that you're violating
25:08
them and they're in on it
25:10
and that's what happens when we when we
25:11
use metaphors for example
25:13
so i'm i'm flouting when i use the
25:15
metaphor
25:16
the maxim of quality which means
25:19
i'm saying a thing that we both know is
25:21
obviously false
25:22
it's not really raining cats and dogs
25:25
but i'm not lying to you and i'm not
25:26
manipulating you i'm
25:28
i'm speaking in a way that you're in on
25:30
the joke and so if that's what pence is
25:32
doing here i'm okay with that
25:33
and my view of scripture is such that
25:36
it's not immune to that and it shouldn't
25:37
be
25:38
held apart from that sort of thing i'm
25:39
totally okay with that use
25:41
for me what controls what should control
25:43
the use
25:44
is not some kind of adherence to the
25:47
authority of the text
25:49
or the you know the
25:52
purity of the text or something like
25:54
that it's
25:56
morality so so what should control the
26:00
use is what is actually
26:02
good what is actually edifying and in
26:05
this case it seems to me that pence is
26:07
is using the text for something immoral
26:10
it's not that he's using the text
26:11
inappropriately
26:12
because it's the bible it's that he's
26:14
using this text inappropriately
26:16
because its goal is immoral which is
26:19
which is to uphold the united states as
26:22
a bastion of equality
26:24
and freedom which it isn't this is
26:27
immoral
26:28
and it would be immoral if you did it
26:29
with the great gatsby
26:31
it'd be immoral if you did it with the
26:32
quran as it's not my faithfulness to the
26:35
text that
26:36
makes this bother me it's my
26:37
faithfulness to a moral code
26:40
so that's the philosopher's take which
26:41
is legit the pastor's take
26:44
is this is just the epitome of not only
26:47
nationalism but
26:49
and if you're if you're a trump pence
26:51
supporter
26:52
and you're listening god bless you we
26:54
love you but
26:55
this is also the epitome of heresy if
26:57
we're just going to be honest
26:58
right i mean the early church if the
27:00
early church would have taken hebrews 12
27:02
1-2
27:03
which is let us fix our eyes on jesus
27:06
the author and perfect of our faith
27:07
if the early church would have replaced
27:10
jesus
27:11
with the roman empire that person's
27:14
baptism would have been revoked and they
27:15
would have been
27:16
seen as heretics literally i mean
27:19
it's just so counterintuitive to what we
27:21
find in the in the early church in the
27:23
roman empire
27:24
in the the roman empire calling for
27:26
worship calling for caesar worship
27:28
this is actually giving america the
27:30
american empire
27:32
caesar worship replacing jesus with all
27:34
glory
27:37
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[Music]
28:14
maybe i should maybe i should say this
28:16
and this could be a something i could
28:18
grow in i suppose
28:19
i tend to probably collapse the
28:21
distinction between patriotism and
28:23
nationalism that we've been making
28:25
so for me to to have a feeling of
28:27
patriotism
28:29
and this is just my experience it
28:32
implies the exclusion of other ways of
28:34
doing things or other
28:35
countries or other political systems
28:37
much like
28:38
i'm not a sports fan but i imagine that
28:40
when you're a fan of a sports team
28:42
being a fan of that sports team implies
28:44
you're not a fan of many other teams you
28:46
think your team is objectively better
28:48
no i know the peckers are objectively
28:50
better exactly
28:51
you're making so you know i do not
28:53
believe
28:55
that the united states is an objectively
28:57
better political system
28:58
than all of the other ones in the world
28:59
that would just be not consistent with
29:01
the evidence we have as far as i can
29:03
tell
29:04
so if it's if it's not actually
29:06
objectively better
29:08
as a political system as an economic
29:10
system as you name it as its history
29:13
whatever
29:14
then what else is it that would make me
29:15
feel proud of it well so
29:18
i i don't think you can say you could
29:20
probably say it's not
29:21
you couldn't you can't prove it's the
29:23
best political system
29:25
but it's a really good one i mean if you
29:27
if you like
29:28
consider other political whatever
29:31
metrics we could use and i'm speaking
29:33
here not as a political scientist not as
29:35
a
29:36
political philosopher even it's not my
29:38
field but
29:39
it seems that whatever metrics we would
29:41
use to determine what makes for a good
29:43
country
29:44
there are quite a few other countries
29:46
that would do at least as well on all of
29:47
those metrics as the united states would
29:49
and some of them would do better across
29:51
the board and some of them
29:54
like took their model from us and
29:57
well some of them are much older than us
29:58
too though sure um
30:01
yeah so i mean well i don't want to get
30:03
into
30:04
specifics of other political systems and
30:06
economies but it's just like
30:08
i'll say this much people who are
30:10
political scientists
30:12
people who are political philosophers
30:14
people whose job it is to study these
30:16
things
30:17
they do not tend to believe that the
30:19
united states is superior
30:21
to all the other countries in the world
30:23
that's
30:24
i haven't done any hard studies here but
30:26
i'm pretty certain that you would see
30:28
a declining if you were to graph it out
30:31
that the people who
30:32
have that kind of expertise would be
30:34
much less likely to view it that way
30:36
than the people
30:37
who don't have that kind of expertise
30:39
and that tells me that
30:40
just comparatively from a totally
30:42
objective point of view
30:44
the united states is not vastly superior
30:47
and it seems like
30:48
to be a patriot you have to convince
30:50
yourself that it is in some way superior
30:53
and if it's not according to those
30:54
objective metrics then what is it
30:56
maybe it's the ideal and that's fine
30:58
that they're good ideals
31:00
but then we don't always live up to the
31:02
idea yes now i mean i would agree
31:04
with you in that political scientists
31:06
wouldn't universally say that america
31:08
has the best
31:09
political system some would for sure but
31:11
i would again say
31:13
i mean just because britain is is way
31:15
older than we are
31:16
we were a republic or democracy whatever
31:19
you want to say it
31:20
far l far before we were and we probably
31:22
actually started their
31:23
parliamentary system because they didn't
31:24
become have the parliamentary system and
31:27
didn't become a democracy until early in
31:29
the in the 20th century
31:30
while we were rolling in that so i do
31:33
think it's important to
31:34
to see that we in some ways and some of
31:37
you historians and political science
31:39
buffs are going to just
31:40
write us in and talk about how terrible
31:43
uh maybe we should interview one i mean
31:45
that would be
31:46
useful yeah i feel like we're kind of
31:47
grasping for example yeah the phone
31:49
lines are open
31:51
but i would say i don't i don't know of
31:53
many nations who established a
31:56
democracy in a re republic way of going
31:59
about business
32:00
i don't know of many before america i
32:02
mean that's that's why we were started
32:05
okay so let me ask this you know as
32:08
somebody who
32:09
who grew up in the church and who
32:11
subscribes to the ways of
32:12
of christ tries to live that out how
32:15
should i be thinking about my
32:17
my christianity in regard to my
32:19
patriotism you know if i
32:21
you hear the adage that this is a
32:22
christian nation and you know in many
32:24
ways our roots are there
32:26
but at the same time it feels it it
32:27
feels so odd the way that
32:30
patriotism has sometimes become so
32:32
enmeshed in the church like i i remember
32:35
singing like you know like a flag or
32:38
things like that
32:39
yeah on a sunday around the fourth of
32:41
july we're doing that
32:42
how do i deal with this as a christian
32:44
though that's that's the
32:46
it they're so enmeshed and it just
32:48
doesn't feel like they should be
32:49
uh and yet i feel like there's some
32:51
faith-based duty to my country
32:54
that i can't quite put my finger on
32:57
i'll just say this and then i'll let
32:58
randy talk the only church service i've
33:00
ever walked out of
33:02
was a fourth of july service they had is
33:05
a mega church so they had these huge
33:06
screens with the
33:07
you know the lyrics or whatever and they
33:09
had waving american flags as the
33:11
background behind the lyrics and they
33:12
were singing that lee greenwood song and
33:13
proud to be
33:15
and it just and they had the american
33:16
flag on the stage right next to the
33:18
the christian flag and everybody they
33:21
get to the chorus and everybody
33:22
spontaneously stands
33:24
whoa and it's the exact same feeling you
33:26
would have in
33:27
any worship service except that it's
33:30
about america not jesus
33:32
and i just it was the closest idolatry
33:34
i've ever felt and i just
33:36
had to go i mean pure idolatry yeah
33:39
yeah yeah no i remember growing up and
33:41
we would be in the north woods on
33:42
vacation during
33:43
the fourth of july and we'd go to a
33:45
little
33:46
northwoods church that doubled in size
33:49
because of the tour season
33:50
and we our favorite service of the year
33:54
maybe third favorite after easter and
33:56
christmas was fourth of july
33:58
where we'd sing all the patriotic songs
34:01
and the pastor would
34:02
preach about it and my family loved it
34:05
i mean just straight up loved it to now
34:07
when i think of
34:08
having something like the battle hymn of
34:10
the republic saying in
34:12
a church it makes me want to throw up i
34:15
mean it just
34:16
blows me away but let's let's not talk
34:18
about the extreme because that's obvious
34:20
that's nasty that's terrible we i mean
34:22
but that's important because
34:23
the extreme like the the exact service
34:26
you were talking about kyle
34:27
that's what people see right that's part
34:30
of why
34:32
more and more people especially more and
34:34
more younger people in our world want
34:35
nothing to do with the church
34:36
because they see the idolatry they see
34:39
the the
34:40
the absolute disgusting practices of
34:43
bowing down
34:44
in front of the flag and they want
34:46
nothing to do with it so i think that's
34:47
important in and of itself
34:50
and then i think we find
34:53
that i mean we let our theology be
34:55
shaped by so many things as human beings
34:57
we're we're human beings with
34:58
with filters and with experiences and
35:01
you know kyle would do well to talk
35:03
more about that but one of those things
35:05
is us being americans and us being
35:07
republicans us being democrats us being
35:09
liberals us being conservatives
35:11
and what i'm finding as a pastor more
35:13
and more i've been a pastor for
35:15
shoot almost 14 years and i've
35:18
i'm just seeing this huge escalation of
35:21
people who
35:23
completely let their face faith be
35:24
formed around their ideology
35:27
and their theology is completely
35:29
politicized and i think that's a form of
35:31
nationalism i think we've
35:32
we've given our nation and the
35:34
conversation about our nation and our
35:36
political world and our political
35:38
you know chaos and we've actually let
35:41
things
35:42
like race and racism and racial
35:45
injustice and inequality
35:48
the way you feel about that the way you
35:49
talk about that probably
35:51
is determined not by your faith not by
35:54
whether or not you follow jesus it's
35:55
probably determined
35:56
by what political party you're part of
35:59
and how you see that
36:00
whether we're talking about all sorts of
36:03
things
36:03
i've just noticed and been shocked by
36:05
how much
36:06
christians right now in america have
36:09
given our
36:10
faith in our theology over to
36:13
politics in our nation and that is
36:16
that's idolatry yeah if you were to ask
36:20
the average
36:20
evangelical what the most important
36:23
issues
36:24
facing the church and christianity
36:28
are or culture in general are most
36:30
likely you'd get a list that
36:32
aligns pretty closely to a political
36:34
party and has very little to do with
36:36
anything you read the new testament
36:37
some of the major themes of the new
36:39
testament dying to self
36:41
greed taking care of the poor
36:44
privileging
36:44
the you know the perspective of the
36:46
marginalized or god loving your enemies
36:48
these are not part of any current
36:50
political platform that i'm aware of
36:52
but things that never get mentioned in
36:54
the new testament are
36:56
you you'd think that they were what the
36:57
whole book was about to attend some of
36:59
these church services regularly
37:01
yep absolutely yeah so that's i think
37:05
that probably elliot is why you looked
37:06
at a flag thought oh that looks cool
37:08
yeah
37:09
but i don't think i'd ever be able to
37:10
fly that in my fl my house
37:12
yeah it carries too much of those other
37:15
meetings with it
37:17
yeah one of the things too that's going
37:19
on with the flag
37:20
i think we're touching on it but there's
37:22
like such an alignment right now of
37:25
the especially the evangelical church
37:27
with the
37:28
the political right that like it it
37:30
works for
37:31
uh when pence is in pewaukee next week
37:33
that's the first stop of
37:34
the faith in america to her which oh boy
37:38
which is like it's it's intended to
37:41
smash these two things together
37:43
for a large subset of people who call
37:46
themselves christians that's
37:47
like that is the thing they cling to i
37:49
don't know
37:50
we've talked a lot about politics
37:52
already
37:53
i don't know how helpful it is to go
37:55
deeper there but that's a
37:56
i know for me that that feeling of not
38:00
being able to hang an american flag is
38:01
much more acute in this
38:03
setting than it was even four or five
38:05
years ago
38:06
because you know you fly it and you mean
38:08
one thing by it but you know
38:10
that if somebody drives by and sees it
38:11
on your house they're going to
38:13
immediately lump you in with
38:14
the kind of thing that you hate i mean
38:17
the kind of thing that you actually
38:18
think stands against the symbol
38:20
yeah that you mean you intend to say
38:22
something in a really
38:23
unfortunate way it's become a symbol
38:26
this is extreme to say but it's become a
38:28
symbol of hatred because it
38:30
it's the symbol most clung to by the
38:32
voices that i see propagating the most
38:35
uh divisiveness hatred and oppression in
38:39
our current discourse yeah yeah i mean
38:43
it's it's part of this mixture of
38:47
faith and nation and patriotism and
38:51
nationalism
38:51
and in politics where
38:54
you know you see faith in america to her
38:56
and you would just
38:58
hope that christians were smart enough
39:00
to see to see
39:01
how they're being pandered to and how
39:04
they're being just
39:05
completely used by a person
39:08
who said it's okay to grab women by
39:11
their genitals and a person who calls
39:13
other nations [ __ ] countries and if
39:15
you're offended by this language
39:17
i'm just quoting a president if a person
39:20
who
39:20
has is notorious for being a sexist
39:24
misogynistic sex crazed
39:27
has having affairs i mean you could just
39:28
go down the list making fun of just
39:30
mentally disabled people you know
39:32
there's just so much to it
39:34
and yet he stands in front of a church
39:36
and holds a bible up
39:37
a week or two ago and now they start
39:39
this faith in america
39:41
process and or show
39:44
and i want to say so many other words
39:46
but i don't want to offend people
39:48
well i wonder if there will be any flag
39:50
hugging in this one that was a
39:52
a favorite feature of the last round of
39:55
boy really remember that yeah he hugged
39:58
the flag like two or three times
39:59
without without consent yeah
40:04
and and to be fair i mean joe biden is
40:06
pandering to the black community
40:08
of course he is and he's pandering to
40:10
all sorts of people
40:11
um but when when a politician panders
40:15
towards the church that's when i get a
40:16
that's when my hackles go up and that's
40:18
when i get a little suspicious and
40:20
that's when i get a little angry
40:21
and so that i think is where we see this
40:24
intersection of nationalism and the
40:25
church
40:26
becoming an extremely dangerous thing
40:28
because what we've done in america now
40:30
in particular in evangelical church is
40:32
give away our unique
40:34
gospel identity and just given it over
40:36
to the nation and to a political party
40:38
and that
40:40
is not christianity yeah
40:43
yeah and it wouldn't here i'm about to
40:46
do the thing that i sometimes get onto
40:47
other people for doing i'm going to
40:48
point out a problem on the other side
40:50
too
40:51
good yeah it wouldn't be any more
40:53
christian if
40:54
the political tables were reversed right
40:57
i mean we could find times in american
40:58
history not that long ago
41:00
when the democratic party did the same
41:01
damn thing and
41:03
it was no more christian there then
41:05
absolutely just as disgusting
41:07
the state of things now is that one
41:09
party is much much much worse than the
41:11
other one
41:11
uh that's just the historical moment
41:13
that we're in but
41:14
anybody can do this any any american
41:17
can begin to think in a way that
41:21
their political beliefs and their
41:22
religious beliefs are
41:25
they can't be separated they're
41:27
basically one in the same thing
41:29
and we all have friends and family like
41:31
this i think
41:33
and that's just straightforward idolatry
41:36
seconds
41:37
it's it's the exact kind of thing that's
41:39
described at several instances in the
41:40
bible as the sort of thing you might
41:42
ought to stay away from absolutely but
41:45
when it happens to you it's so difficult
41:46
to see
41:47
yep i mean as and as we continue this i
41:50
mean you think about
41:51
um what's happening in our nation right
41:53
now where you know i
41:54
just this afternoon marched through my
41:57
neighborhood
41:58
with a black lives matter sign and we
42:00
went to a police station asking for
42:03
that police chief to be fired and an
42:05
officer who's killed three black
42:06
young men in within five years to be
42:09
fired as well
42:10
right and but what what we find is this
42:13
reality that
42:14
the same people who are telling us to
42:15
shut up in in quiet down
42:19
are telling us to do that when this was
42:22
all started by
42:23
a police officer kneeling on a black
42:25
man's neck for nine almost nine minutes
42:28
and we get to watch this man die not
42:31
even die
42:31
be murdered watch his body drain of
42:34
urine and it's the most disgusting thing
42:36
i may have ever seen
42:37
on on video and those people
42:40
are saying you need to shut up black all
42:43
lives matter
42:44
this is not a thing please be quiet go
42:47
home don't protest that this this should
42:48
be done
42:49
those same exact people when colin
42:51
kaepernick is taking a knee
42:53
in an nfl stadium for a stupid football
42:56
game now i
42:57
friggin love football and love the
42:59
packers but it's
43:00
football and these same people who were
43:03
who are telling us to
43:04
sit down and shut up don't talk when
43:06
colin kaepernick is taking a knee
43:07
because
43:08
during the national anthem because he's
43:10
wanting to protest police violence
43:12
towards black black and brown people
43:14
those people were the ones posting
43:16
like nobody's business all over social
43:18
media all sorts of anger
43:20
having our president say get that get
43:23
that son of a [ __ ] off the field i mean
43:25
and they're cheering they love it that
43:28
is nationalism gone wrong and that is
43:30
there's there's
43:31
no christ in that whatsoever it's devoid
43:34
of christ
43:36
yeah sorry i got preachy i didn't leave
43:39
a whole lot of room for you kyle
43:41
that's okay and i'm i don't know how
43:44
deeply we want to go into this but a a
43:46
major reason
43:47
that that's so antichrist
43:51
is the implied violence
43:54
in it um explain that so you know so
43:57
trump has literally stood at rallies and
43:59
encouraged violence
44:01
and then when he says violent things
44:03
violence
44:04
happens you know you see upticks and
44:07
politicized violence
44:09
and it's my view and we could have a
44:10
whole separate episode on this but it's
44:12
my view that christianity is inherently
44:13
non-violent
44:15
that if you're going to be a follower of
44:16
jesus that means quite literally
44:19
divesting yourself of the use of
44:22
violence
44:22
and force to get your way or to get the
44:25
way of the kingdom
44:26
jesus very explicitly says my kingdom is
44:29
not of this world
44:31
and the evidence that he provided for
44:32
that was that if it were
44:34
we would use violence to accomplish our
44:36
goals
44:38
and instead we approach those who use
44:41
violence against us
44:42
with love and with
44:46
trying to absorb their violence and
44:48
wishing good on them instead
44:50
serving them that see it seems to me is
44:53
the the dna of christianity that's what
44:55
really makes it unique among the world
44:57
religions that i that i found
44:59
is that kind of really strong emphasis
45:01
on love of enemies
45:03
and the insistence on peace-building and
45:06
non-violent approach
45:08
and that is like the opposite of
45:12
how nations like ours function
45:15
so so another i guess another reason i'm
45:18
realizing that i have
45:19
an issue with being a patriot even in
45:22
the good sense
45:22
[Music]
45:24
is that at the end of the day what i'm
45:27
feeling proud of is something that is
45:30
inherently violent
45:32
that defends itself with force
45:35
and has to i mean you can't have
45:38
a world power without a strong military
45:43
and in my reading of the new testament
45:45
the use of the military at all
45:48
is already non-christian so i have a
45:51
real hard time
45:52
that's probably another reason i have a
45:53
real hard time because i feel like
45:55
my allegiances are divided if i'm going
45:57
to be a patriot for this thing then i
46:00
can't really be a full-fledged
46:02
member of the kingdom of jesus that's a
46:05
strong claim
46:06
absolutely yeah and i mean here let me
46:08
tell you the most patriotic i've been
46:10
in a very very long time it just it's
46:12
been these last few weeks
46:14
when i'm marching often alongside elliot
46:18
and my daughter
46:19
and there's these chants that happen and
46:21
they're really fun i just
46:23
just telling ellie before we came in
46:24
that i i have them going through my head
46:26
all the time now but one of them says
46:28
this there's always it's
46:30
always a call and response and the guy
46:32
with the megaphone or the
46:33
girl with a megaphone goes tell me what
46:35
democracy looks like
46:36
and we all say this is what democracy
46:39
looks like
46:40
as we're marching through the streets of
46:41
our city closing them down
46:43
and the police are standing by watching
46:46
hopefully
46:46
right as you as we chant that over and
46:49
over again
46:50
tell me what democracy looks like this
46:52
is what democracy looks like
46:54
that makes me proud that makes me
46:57
patriotic even though
46:59
the real patriots would say that's not
47:01
being patriotic whatsoever but
47:03
that that's pretty cool as we're walking
47:06
down the street shutting it down
47:07
and we're saying chance like if we don't
47:10
get what we need
47:11
shut it down and that's what we're doing
47:13
is shutting down streets shutting down
47:15
you know all sorts of things so that's
47:18
fun
47:18
yeah yeah and i assume you're
47:22
you're committed to a non-violent
47:23
approach to that shutting down of course
47:25
which not all activists are no we have
47:27
to just be honest about that and there's
47:29
some
47:29
very well argued perspectives against
47:32
that approach
47:33
and the reality right now is that most
47:35
of the activists are not doing the
47:36
looting and the violence it's
47:37
mostly agitators who are trying to cause
47:39
chaos
47:40
sure but yeah peaceful protest but but i
47:43
don't want to like you know totally
47:44
discount the view that says no sometimes
47:46
violence as a as a form of political
47:49
activism is acceptable
47:50
but for me as a christian i don't feel
47:53
like i can say that
47:54
absolutely i feel like i'm committed to
47:56
the view
47:57
that non-violent peacemaking is is the
48:00
only way
48:01
of jesus's kingdom and so insofar as i
48:04
can take that way
48:05
and also apply it to political purposes
48:08
to
48:08
to affect real positive change in a in a
48:11
democracy like ours
48:12
that's a great thing but it still feels
48:14
to me as though
48:16
i i am pulling in values from my
48:20
christianity that are maybe at odds
48:23
fundamentally with
48:24
the thing i'm trying to fix which is
48:28
you know the united states political
48:29
system does that make sense
48:31
yeah it does and you're touching on
48:33
something that
48:35
has often been attention for me is in
48:37
how
48:39
when much more patriotism is tied to uh
48:42
our veterans people who have who have
48:46
fought for us and
48:47
my my grandpa is a world war ii vet and
48:50
and that's something that
48:52
all my life i've been taught to honor
48:53
and it and it seems like such a
48:55
sacrifice
48:56
and such a truly like it's a valiant
48:59
effort
49:00
uh and and a an effort that wasn't
49:04
wasn't self-serving uh as much as it was
49:07
to to right severe injustice this was
49:10
the best
49:12
the best of america and yet it was
49:14
extreme force and
49:16
extreme violence and so
49:19
it seems like there's some first there's
49:22
some rightness
49:23
to to that in moments uh it might not be
49:26
the kingdom way it might not be ideal
49:27
and yet
49:29
here we are and then also as somebody
49:31
who's
49:32
who is not enlisted myself and who
49:35
who that it's such a foreign concept to
49:38
me that i would
49:40
take orders from a commander-in-chief
49:44
you know through through ranks
49:46
doing doing things that i might not even
49:47
agree with to put my life on the line
49:49
like that's a
49:50
that would require some pretty
49:51
significant acrobatics mental acrobatics
49:53
for me
49:55
yet it feels like there's a place of
49:56
honor
49:58
even of those some of those most violent
50:01
efforts
50:02
what do you think of that this is a
50:06
sticky
50:07
thing for me i think it's possible
50:10
to honor someone and someone's actions
50:14
and the selflessness of their actions
50:17
while simultaneously believing
50:19
that those actions are unfortunate
50:23
you you can make great and courageous
50:25
sacrifices for things that are not worth
50:27
your sacrifice
50:29
and so you know i have family too that
50:31
were
50:32
veterans of the military my own father
50:36
my grandfather on my mom's side i have a
50:40
great deal of respect for
50:41
[Music]
50:42
a lot of veterans that i've known in
50:45
fact one of my
50:46
personal heroes is a medal of honor
50:48
recipient
50:49
a guy named desmond doss but but the
50:52
reason he's my hero is because he was
50:53
the only conscientious objector to ever
50:55
receive the medal of honor
50:57
and and he was a pacifist because he was
50:59
a christian for the same reasons that i
51:00
am and so he he made is that's the clint
51:03
eastwood movie
51:05
it was a hacksaw ridge i think it was
51:07
mel gibson the director yeah what a
51:08
movie what a story fantastic and it's
51:10
all
51:10
true i mean he he he made the same kind
51:13
of sacrifice he just
51:15
refused to kill he refused to use
51:18
violence to harm others and so instead
51:21
he literally pulled bodies off the
51:22
battlefield that to me is a great
51:24
picture
51:26
of the christian's role in the state as
51:28
far as i can tell
51:30
so so i simultaneously want to honor the
51:32
kind of
51:33
courage and selflessness that it takes
51:36
to join
51:37
a fight like that especially when the
51:39
costs are as high as they were in world
51:41
war
51:41
ii which is when he got his medal of
51:43
honor but
51:45
i don't think i don't think i can say
51:48
because of my christianity because of my
51:49
understanding of jesus's ethic
51:52
i don't think i can say that that in all
51:55
cases
51:56
when veterans make that sacrifice
52:00
that it's overall a good thing or that
52:03
they're that their sacrifice is
52:04
worthwhile that it that it's for
52:06
something that actually improves the
52:08
world
52:09
war is a terrible thing it's a great
52:11
evil
52:12
and it's not a good way to solve
52:15
problems
52:16
it's a fundamentally irrational thing in
52:18
many ways
52:20
i had actually a quote here from a
52:22
philosopher named blaise pascal
52:24
i love pascal you've heard of who was a
52:27
christian
52:28
a devout christian and
52:31
he's i just read a little snippet of
52:32
this quote he says
52:34
can anything be more ridiculous than
52:36
that a man should have the right to kill
52:38
me because he lives on the other side of
52:40
the water
52:41
and because his ruler has a quarrel with
52:42
mine though i have none with him and he
52:46
goes on in a similar vein and the rest
52:48
of the passage and
52:50
there's there's like a deep sense of
52:52
irrationality
52:53
in war the idea that that i have the
52:56
right to take the life of another person
52:58
for reasons that i don't understand
53:00
when i have nothing against that other
53:02
person and they have nothing against me
53:04
and that at
53:05
a single order from either of our
53:06
authorities we could just be friends
53:09
instead uh there's something deeply
53:11
irrational and deeply immoral about that
53:14
and so while i can admire the
53:17
willingness
53:18
of someone to sacrifice for a cause that
53:20
they believe is greater than themselves
53:23
i still because i'm a philosopher must
53:24
insist
53:26
that the cause really is worthwhile
53:29
and the fact of the matter is it usually
53:31
isn't uh now we can find
53:33
major historical exceptions world war ii
53:35
was an obvious exception
53:37
uh but for the most part wars are not
53:39
wars are not rational and they're not
53:41
moral if you're listening and you're
53:43
perhaps even a veteran or you're you
53:46
love a veteran you're married to one or
53:48
you know you just vehemently disagree
53:50
with what kyle just said which i'm pr
53:52
pretty sure many of us are or you are um
53:56
here's something to just hold and take
53:58
seriously
53:59
in the early church it was just taken as
54:01
a given that if
54:02
a soldier of the roman empire converted
54:05
to christianity
54:06
they were just expected to lay down
54:08
their arms and give up being a soldier
54:10
that was just the expectation the the
54:12
call to non-violence was
54:13
very very clear in the early church very
54:15
clear
54:17
through all the church fathers so if we
54:20
are you know gun-toting
54:23
you know war rallying war crying
54:26
patriots
54:27
we need and we call ourselves christians
54:29
we need to take seriously the
54:31
foundations of our faith which was very
54:32
clearly non-violent
54:34
and arguably pacifistic
54:38
so you need to wrestle with that that
54:39
being said i'm not completely a pacifist
54:42
i think war is atrocious i think war is
54:44
ugly i don't
54:45
like i used to watch i grew up in a
54:47
family where we watched war movies all
54:49
the time and those were some of the best
54:50
movies we watched i loved
54:52
them and i still think there's some
54:53
really good war movies
54:55
like 1917 we just saw that it was
54:57
amazing movie but
54:59
i for in general can't watch war movies
55:02
anymore because they disgust me
55:03
because we're being entertained by human
55:06
beings being maimed
55:07
and tortured and brutally killed i can't
55:09
do it that's that's just
55:11
awful and people are making millions of
55:13
dollars basing off
55:14
you know being entertained by that and
55:17
we're establishing a culture then that's
55:19
just completely
55:20
desensitizes ourselves to violence all
55:22
that
55:23
most of the wars i will say most of the
55:25
wars in history
55:26
i would disagree with but then there is
55:30
for instance and you know where i'm
55:31
going to go world war ii
55:34
how i i don't this is where i can't be a
55:37
pacifist kyle and we've had this
55:38
conversation a number of times but
55:40
six million jewish people were tortured
55:43
and brutally murdered and millions more
55:46
than that
55:47
made it out alive but were traumatized
55:50
like no other human being maybe has ever
55:52
been traumatized
55:54
and for and hitler was an absolute
55:58
nut bag he was just a maniacal tyrant
56:01
who
56:01
thought he could take over the world and
56:02
he started trying and he was pretty good
56:04
at it
56:05
and he was very strategic with it i mean
56:06
he he rolled through paris
56:08
like nobody like it was just they laid
56:11
down
56:11
arms and rode through one of the biggest
56:14
most powerful cities and nations in
56:16
in western europe and really thinking
56:18
about
56:20
a pacifist nation saying now we'll just
56:23
and it's of course you as a pacifist
56:25
wouldn't say oh we'll just let that
56:26
happen
56:27
but i i mean you couldn't you couldn't
56:30
be smart and seriously look at me and
56:31
say
56:31
i think i could have talked hitler out
56:33
of it right or i think there's other
56:34
ways to
56:35
you could have stopped hitler without
56:36
war i don't buy it and
56:39
un until you can convince me that you
56:41
could stop a person like a maniac
56:43
like hitler and a bunch of people who
56:45
he's brainwashed
56:46
from torturing and killing and trying to
56:49
literally
56:50
wipe out a human race
56:54
i can't be a pacifist i i couldn't stand
56:56
by and watch that happen and be okay
56:58
with it because we we can't
57:00
use violent means to put us to put an
57:03
end to utter awful evil and i know that
57:05
you're using evil to defeat evil
57:07
but i just can't i can't stand by and
57:10
let that one
57:11
walk by yeah
57:14
so we should have a separate episode on
57:17
pacifism i don't want to go
57:18
too into the depths on that right now
57:21
i'll just say i don't think pacifism as
57:23
a view as a doctrine stands or
57:25
falls with its ability to reply to that
57:28
question
57:29
there's a whole spectrum of views within
57:31
the umbrella of pacifism
57:33
some would go to the extreme of yeah
57:36
combating hitler with force
57:38
was morally wrong despite the cost i
57:41
wouldn't go that far
57:42
but there are other views within the
57:44
umbrella that wouldn't go to that stream
57:46
but fundamentally it's focused on the
57:49
positive
57:50
form of action rather than trying to
57:52
answer all of the what-if questions
57:55
and it's a positive ethic it's about
57:58
our primary focus being on peace
57:59
building even when things are good
58:02
like long before a threat like hitler
58:05
comes to the fore
58:06
what can we do in our society to to
58:09
ensure that that sort of thing
58:10
doesn't happen so once it gets that bad
58:13
yeah maybe the pacifist is in the same
58:15
boat with everybody else and you have a
58:17
case like dietrich bonhoeffer who was a
58:18
pacifist and was very conflicted about
58:20
what he should do
58:22
but if we had been acting according to
58:24
pacifist principles all along we
58:25
wouldn't have been in that
58:26
situation that's a very idealistic way
58:27
of looking at it but okay if people
58:30
yeah i mean the gospel is fundamentally
58:32
idealistic
58:33
it's the idea that you can be a perfect
58:34
human if you adopt the ethic of
58:37
this guy that came and showed it and
58:38
that's a big if that's that's that's it
58:40
right there
58:40
is yeah if we can turn the world into
58:42
christians praise the lord although
58:45
yeah i'm not sure if you look at
58:46
christianity in america but i i'm
58:48
committed to the view this part of my
58:50
theological uh direction of
58:53
anabaptism i'm committed to the view
58:55
that uh to be a member of the kingdom of
58:57
jesus
58:58
means to live like jesus did it means to
59:01
embody the sermon on the mountain now
59:03
even if it's unpopular and even if it
59:05
seems unrealistic and even if it's even
59:07
doomed to failure in many cases
59:09
if we don't do it now later generations
59:12
are going to have no model for how to do
59:13
it
59:14
i don't think that you know i don't take
59:16
the view that
59:17
the church just sort of does the best it
59:20
can and then waits for jesus to come
59:21
back and fix things i mean
59:23
it's our job to the first things jesus
59:25
fixes things through
59:26
us so yes it's idealistic yes it's
59:28
difficult to believe but it's also what
59:30
jesus said
59:31
it's in about individuals and if i'm
59:34
committed to that
59:35
yeah yeah and guess what the only
59:38
christians are individuals
59:40
there's no such thing as uh you know
59:42
[Music]
59:44
you can't have a christian community
59:46
without christian individuals
59:48
jesus didn't really seem very interested
59:50
in
59:51
just you know describing how a good
59:52
political system works
59:55
his kingdom was different from that and
59:57
it was based on the faith of individuals
60:00
yep so we well i've got things to say
60:02
but we can stop that now
60:04
but one last thing to go go back to your
60:06
question elliot about how do we can we
60:07
or should we
60:08
honor veterans even or you know people
60:11
who have sacrificed
60:12
i baptize somebody i don't know three
60:14
four years ago
60:15
who's this wonderful man really really
60:17
good man who is a veteran
60:19
and who he told me is part of like
60:22
everyone who i baptize i
60:24
just get to know them and i get to know
60:25
their story and where they why they're
60:27
wanting to be baptized and he said he
60:29
joined the military because he wanted to
60:30
help people
60:32
that's why he joined the military
60:33
because he wanted to go on peacekeeping
60:35
missions
60:35
and and the reality is that a huge part
60:39
of the american military
60:40
still today is in places that we really
60:43
don't need to be but we're actually
60:44
keeping the peace we're actually
60:46
bringing aid to impoverished
60:49
areas that's not like the universal case
60:51
obviously but
60:52
there are people who get into the
60:54
military just because they say
60:56
i want to do good in the world i want to
60:58
help
60:59
those who can't help themselves around
61:00
the world and i know that the american
61:02
military is doing that
61:05
so you're you're a good uh you're good
61:08
lutheran boy right or you were yeah
61:10
baptist and lutheran both sides so the
61:13
lutherans as i understand it have this
61:15
view
61:15
they call it two kingdoms view if i
61:17
recall it's the idea that you
61:19
hold kind of a dual allegiance so
61:23
you're you're you're a member of the
61:25
kingdom of jesus but you're also a
61:26
member of the kingdom of the state that
61:27
you exist in
61:29
and it's almost like you have these
61:31
separate spheres and separate
61:32
responsibilities
61:34
how would you respond to this it's give
61:36
to caesar what is caesar's and
61:38
gift yeah i mean there's a little bit of
61:40
pollen there right
61:42
so i ca i can i i don't totally flush it
61:46
but when we talk about allegiance again
61:49
all of my allegiance goes to to christ
61:52
goes to the lamb
61:53
and his kingdom and and absolutely no
61:56
other
61:57
so so i get it why luther and lutherans
62:00
would say that but
62:00
at the same time i don't think we need
62:03
to do that i don't think jesus is asking
62:04
us to do that i think
62:06
jesus is asking for all of our
62:07
allegiance and all of our
62:09
all of our stuff yeah do you pledge
62:11
allegiance by the way
62:13
no i haven't done that yet yeah just
62:14
tend to avoid settings where it could
62:16
potentially happen
62:17
i mean honestly you don't have to put
62:19
this in the podcast but i'm closer to
62:21
burning an american flag than i am
62:25
like i feel more patriotic when i see
62:27
videos of black people yeah no i'm with
62:28
industry yeah than i do
62:30
when i see yeah i think the upside down
62:31
flag is nice i think that that feels
62:33
patriotic to me yeah i think it's
62:35
yeah it's still it's the flag but it's
62:37
also recognition that something was
62:39
deeply wrong
62:40
i like that yeah maybe that's what i'll
62:41
do on my front porch
62:44
right yeah so kyle when we have
62:48
when we talk about patriotism and
62:49
nationalism we talk about in the church
62:51
there's this another kind of ripple to
62:54
it
62:55
in that it feels like we christians many
62:58
christians
62:58
particularly again sorry not sorry
63:01
evangelicals
63:02
give this feel that americans and
63:05
probably israelites right like
63:07
that god favors the usa and israel over
63:11
any other nation any other people group
63:13
that we are the chosen ones we are the
63:15
favored ones we are the you know we are
63:18
god's nate one nation under god and
63:20
well israel's israel of course right so
63:22
of course god loves them more than
63:24
most others have you obviously you felt
63:26
that i mean
63:27
tell me tell me some thoughts on that
63:29
yeah i
63:30
i'm a pentecostal or converted to a kind
63:33
of pentecostalism in
63:35
college and i remember a lot of
63:38
pentecostal preachers making
63:40
this kind of point they think that if
63:42
you're not for the nation of israel
63:44
as it exists today then you're somehow
63:46
not consistent with the bible
63:48
because god intentionally blessed israel
63:50
not any of the other countries of the
63:51
world he chose israel
63:52
ignoring of course the fact that he
63:54
chose israel in order to bless to be
63:56
blessing to all the
63:58
you know they focus on israel itself and
64:00
they seem
64:02
it displays a remarkable lack of
64:04
historical
64:05
creativity that they seem unable to
64:07
separate israel as as it existed in the
64:09
bible from israel
64:10
post 1940s oh as though the the state of
64:14
israel that exists today is
64:15
the identical entity that was described
64:20
so i i guess my take on that is i just
64:22
don't see anything in the bible that
64:24
that actually necessitates that i take
64:26
any view about the current state
64:28
of the state of israel it just doesn't
64:30
it kind of like uh
64:31
the issue of evolution i just don't see
64:33
anything in the bible about it
64:35
so i'm free to take any position i want
64:38
on that
64:38
i don't see anything in the bible about
64:39
the modern day state of israel so i'm
64:41
free to take any position on that i want
64:43
and i can consider the evidence just
64:45
like i would with any other state
64:46
and i can notice for example that israel
64:49
is guilty of
64:50
a gross amount of human rights
64:51
violations against palestinians and i
64:53
don't have to pretend
64:54
that that's okay because the bible
64:55
somehow necessitates that i take a
64:56
positive view of israel
64:58
yeah and i mean we in the church need to
65:00
be pro-israel
65:02
i actually mean that because and i mean
65:05
that because
65:06
every single person who lives in israel
65:09
or considers themselves
65:10
themselves an israelite has the imago de
65:12
on them
65:13
and bear the image of god and so
65:16
therefore they have uncertain that's
65:17
what we call a bait-and-shit
65:20
so of course because they have
65:21
conservatives for getting excited
65:23
because they bear the image of god they
65:25
have unsurpassable worth and value
65:27
and i think we need to be pro-palestine
65:30
as well
65:30
and pro-palestinian because every single
65:33
palestinian person who exists
65:36
who is alive and breathing right now
65:38
bears the image of god and so that means
65:40
they also have
65:40
unsurpassable worth and value and so you
65:43
can go on
65:44
down the line no person no nation can
65:47
have more value than another because
65:49
every human being who is alive is
65:51
completely loved by god and
65:54
has unsurpassable worth and value
65:55
because of the imago day
65:57
and god there's a going back to
66:00
revelation there's this picture of
66:02
every tribe tongue and nation worshiping
66:04
god together
66:05
and it's a picture that comes over and
66:07
over again and so it seems like
66:09
you know like we're saying now don't
66:11
saying i'm colorblind is really just a
66:14
tone-deaf thing to say also saying
66:18
god doesn't care about nationalities and
66:19
cultures and all that stuff i think is
66:21
silliness as well because god
66:23
all of that comes from god and is unique
66:25
and bears the image of god in the imago
66:26
day in a unique way
66:28
and so i think god really loves that and
66:29
celebrates that and we find in that in
66:30
the book of revelation where we get
66:32
maybe the truest picture of what god
66:34
really cares about and what the
66:36
what's going to be in the end after god
66:38
judges all things which
66:39
by that i mean that god sets all things
66:41
to rights so yeah be pro is a real
66:43
be pro-palestine and if you don't you
66:45
got to read your bible a little better
66:46
yeah i mean it's
66:47
it's remarkable that in the book of
66:49
revelation it's a very multicultural
66:51
setting it's celebrating a lot of people
66:53
seem to miss that
66:54
very explicitly all the nations of the
66:55
world gather together yep
66:58
and one thing worth one thing worth
66:59
noting here and
67:01
again we could have a whole separate
67:02
episode on this if we wanted to
67:04
is that uh looking to the
67:07
bible for your current
67:10
foreign policy maybe not a great idea
67:14
uh looking to the old testament for what
67:16
you should believe
67:17
about nationalism also maybe not a great
67:20
idea
67:21
because all of those books were written
67:23
by nationalists
67:25
in the negative sense i mean the the
67:27
oldest portions of the old testament
67:28
aren't even monotheistic they are
67:31
henotheistic which means they accept the
67:33
existence of multiple deities
67:35
and they think that their deity is the
67:37
best and most powerful because it is
67:38
their nation's deity
67:40
um so you're gonna get a lot of
67:43
nationalism in the text and which
67:45
partially explains why there's are so
67:47
many nationalistic christians because
67:49
they read the bible kind of uncritically
67:51
and assume that anything represented
67:53
therein
67:54
is didactic yeah it's something that i
67:56
must believe and now you're opening up a
67:58
can of worms that we should
67:59
hermeneutical approach now you're
68:00
opening up a can of worms that we should
68:02
wait we really have a separate
68:03
conversation
68:03
but i'll just say this not only what is
68:07
you know that probably true that the you
68:09
know books of the bible were
68:10
written by nationalists but also the
68:13
whole of the bible
68:14
was written by marginalized people and
68:17
to me
68:18
of course if you're a marginalized
68:20
people group who have been enslaved and
68:22
and conquered over and over again of
68:25
course you're going to have this
68:26
really strong national identity because
68:29
every freaking nation around you has
68:31
tried to strip you of it
68:32
and of course you're going to have this
68:34
different way of seeing reality and
68:36
history and all that stuff right so
68:38
the bible being written by marginalized
68:39
people has astounding
68:41
effects on our sacred text and we would
68:43
do well to see them but
68:44
let's let's have some fun with that in a
68:46
later episode
68:48
yeah for sure so randy
68:51
to close here's a zinger for you uh do
68:55
you think
68:55
that christians ought to say the pledge
68:58
of allegiance
69:00
well i mean i will tell you this one
69:02
doesn't and can't
69:03
and i probably think yeah i hope every
69:07
christian
69:08
reevaluates whether or not you think
69:10
it's appropriate to say the pledge of
69:11
allegiance
69:13
i said the pledge of allegiance all the
69:14
way through until several years ago
69:16
where i studied the book of revelation
69:18
and really got down into it for a sermon
69:20
series fell in love with it
69:22
and now that's probably really weird
69:24
because
69:26
most christians think that the book of
69:27
revelation is all about
69:29
fire and judgment and end times and when
69:32
everything's gonna happen and all that
69:34
stuff but really the book of revelation
69:36
is a book about allegiance and by that i
69:40
mean
69:41
the earliest christians that john was
69:43
writing to from the island of patmos
69:45
were
69:46
persecuted people because they couldn't
69:48
give their
69:49
allegiance to caesar the most powerful
69:51
man in the world right
69:53
the book of revelation is about empires
69:55
and kingdoms and which one we give our
69:56
allegiance to
69:59
caesar when the book of revelation was
70:02
written
70:03
demanded and his soldiers demanded pure
70:06
allegiance to caesar into
70:08
the roman empire they not only demanded
70:10
pure allegiance they demanded
70:11
worship of caesar there's this it's
70:13
called caesar cult
70:15
and you actually had to sacrifice to
70:18
caesar
70:18
like he was a god caesar called himself
70:20
the son of god
70:21
that's on coins it's literal history
70:25
the when the roman soldiers would
70:27
conquer a city
70:28
they would come out and recite the
70:30
gospel of rome the gospel of the roman
70:32
empire how you have been delivered
70:34
now by lord caesar and now all of a
70:36
sudden you have a bunch of people
70:38
who say your lord is not caesar your
70:40
lord's name jesus
70:41
and you cannot bow a knee to any other
70:44
any other ruler any other
70:45
authority besides jesus your allegiance
70:48
belongs completely to jesus and that's
70:51
what the book of revelation
70:52
is really in large part about
70:55
is jesus coming to his church and then
70:57
say stand strong be strong even in the
71:00
face
71:00
of oppression even in the face of
71:02
persecution even in the face of death
71:04
your allegiance belongs to me and i will
71:06
give you the crown of life if you
71:07
persevere
71:08
through it all and that to me is we have
71:11
the sword
71:12
of the empire on one hand asking for our
71:14
allegiance in our
71:16
our our our commitment and our worship
71:18
and we have the lamb of god
71:20
this who was slain before all eternity
71:24
who the empire murdered but he has
71:26
triumphed over it
71:27
and now he's saying your allegiance
71:29
belongs to me and so once i saw that and
71:31
once i fleshed that out a little bit i
71:33
just
71:33
i went to my next my son's next boy
71:36
scout meeting
71:37
and had the moment where we put our
71:39
hands over our hearts and stand at
71:40
attention and i was like holy crap
71:43
i can't say these words i can't do it
71:46
and so now i'm that
71:47
awkward dad who stands off in the corner
71:49
with his hands folded during the pledge
71:50
of allegiance when all the other dads
71:52
and moms are doing it and
71:54
all the kids are saying and i just can't
71:55
do it i've got one other christian
71:57
friend with me who thinks the same and
71:58
we stand together
71:59
and hope that no one else notices us
72:03
so randy kyle thanks for taking on this
72:06
topic i i know it's a big one
72:08
um i can't say you resolved a lot of the
72:10
tension that i still feel around this
72:13
but jeez it's uh i think it's
72:16
it's a good reminder as in so many areas
72:18
we have to
72:19
to keep clinging to the the beauty and
72:22
the truth
72:23
that we might find kind of stacked
72:26
several layers deep
72:27
in in really complex issues as we think
72:30
about nationalism
72:32
man we could leave that one out so you
72:33
think about patriotism and
72:35
and how that fits i think it's it's been
72:38
helpful to me to think critically about
72:39
this hopefully to our listeners as well
72:41
so thanks for taking this on