In this episode Randy, Kyle, and Elliot tackle the thorny issues of patriotism, nationalism, and their relationship to the American Christian church. They don't pull any punches.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Stagg Jr. by Buffalo Trace Distillery.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity (in the context of quoting the President of the United States).
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Cheers!
In this episode Randy, Kyle, and Elliot tackle the thorny issues of patriotism, nationalism, and their relationship to the American Christian church. They don't pull any punches.
The bourbon featured in this episode is Stagg Jr. by Buffalo Trace Distillery.
Content note: this episode contains some mild profanity (in the context of quoting the President of the United States).
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
NOTE: This transcript was auto-generated by an artificial intelligence and has not been reviewed by a human. Please forgive and disregard any inaccuracies, misattributions, or misspellings.
Mike 00:01
So let's run the race marked out for us. Let's fix our eyes on Old Glory and all she represents. Let's fix our eyes on this land of heroes. And let their courage inspire. And let's fix our eyes on the author and perfecter of our faith and our freedom. And never forget that where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. That means freedom always wins.
Randy 00:40
This is what happens when we give ourselves as a church to nationalism. This is where we wind up, we wind up in a place where we can actually interchange our nation, which is deeply, deeply flawed with Jesus Himself. We've gotten to a place where we exchange our theology for our ideology, particularly our political ideology, and we see everything through that lens. It's why so many people have a hard time saying black lives matter. I don't believe that it's because it's a Marxist institution or because it's, you know, affirms LGBTQ things, whatever. I think it's just because we've conflated politics, with religion with our faith. And this is what you get, you get a politician who's kowtowing to a whole group of people because he knows that they're gonna love it. And they're actually cheering in thinking that this is Christ like to replace Christ himself with the American flag or the nation of America. And we think freedom means what we as Americans make it. This to me is reprehensible. And again, regardless of whether this was who's the vice president Kamala Harris, or Mike Pence, it's in my eyes as one who, let's put the sincere quotes has a high view of Scripture. This is just unacceptable.
Elliot 01:57
You're saying he no longer has your vote.
Randy 02:12
Welcome to a pastor and philosopher walk into a bar,
Kyle 02:15
the podcast where we mix a sometimes weird but always delicious cocktail of theology, philosophy, and spirituality. Well, welcome friends, on this episode of a pastor and philosopher walk into a bar, we're considering the contentious and controversial question of nationalism and patriotism, and its relationship to the Christian church. So it should be a fun one. And since this is a pastor and a philosopher walk into a bar, we're not going to consider a topic like this without something to drink by our side. So we have here something rather special. If I do say so myself. I've never tried this. What is this? So this is a bourbon called stag, Jr. Now, Randy, you facilitated my wedding? To my dear wife, Emily. Facilitated okay, then you? Yeah, well, you don't what do you call it? I don't know, officiated the guy that talked officiated, there we go. And we had we had that wedding at the distillery where this is made. So Buffalo Trace distillery in Frankfort, Kentucky.
Randy 03:19
Was this the bourbon that you had behind the bar for the special people that
Kyle 03:23
was something even more special? Maybe we'll get to that one later on. So this one is it's called Stagg Jr. has a really cool bottle. You guys can't see it but it is cool. JR because there is a really high end bourbon that Buffalo Trace makes called George T stag. That's part of their antique collection it's impossible to find sells for hundreds and hundreds of dollars on hundreds and hundreds and market. Yeah, so sell today for $450 Stagg Jr, is a younger version, it doesn't have an age statement, but we know it's younger. It's cask strength. So just like George T stag is this one we're drinking comes in at 66.05%. So it'll be really strong really hot. It has a similar flavor profile in general to the George T stag, but it's significantly cheaper. Although now that people are catching on to it. It also sells for quite a bit, and it's very difficult to find
Randy 04:24
smells delicious. I mean, it smells hot and smells like cherries oak. Yeah, smells rich and deep.
Kyle 04:35
I love this bourbon.
Elliot 04:38
Oh, this is really nice. Yeah, this might be my favorite so far.
Kyle 04:42
It tastes curious to me. It's hot.
Elliot 04:46
Like a first class. airplane seat.
Randy 04:50
Nicely done. Yeah, that's so complex.
Kyle 04:53
There's something I've noticed about the George T stag tooth which if you ever get a chance to taste it, you absolutely should. It's very strong. Very very hot, but I don't want to cut it with water. Because it's already so complicated. And interesting. It's kind of
Elliot 05:06
it's Woody, mossy,
Randy 05:10
back of the tongue with the fruit, the dark fruits. There's just a lot going on there. Yep, corndog. Like that. The only thing I don't like about it is that it's so strong, that it's hard to really, really taste it
Kyle 05:26
at all. Yeah, it's definitely got a punch to it.
Elliot 05:30
My least favorite part is the size of this poor, very small.
Kyle 05:37
Should have been more generous.
Randy 05:39
Well, friends, we, as Kyle said, are talking about patriotism and nationalism today. These are not new topics. They're these are not new concepts. But we as a culture seem to keep getting tripped up on them, particularly as a church culture. And really, to be honest with you. The main reason why we're doing this topic today is because Elliot wouldn't let us not do it. We got more than a few text messages from Elliot and ideas about what that could look like. So Elliot, tell us why you wanted to while you were hassling us into doing this topic? Yeah.
Elliot 06:14
Well, I can't figure this one out. Like I've been, I think the first text came one night, I was driving out to pick something up on Facebook marketplace, and I passed a bunch of houses that had American flags, and we were thinking a lot about our house front of our houses, like that would look nice. But I had noticed this visceral reaction, like deep down inside, it's just like, I can't put an American flag on the front of my house. And I I questioned that though, because that's like, that's, that's weird. Like, we were this is a, this is a great country, and people gave so many great sacrifices for for this flag, you know, some of my relatives among them and, and yet, when it comes down to it, it's come to represent something so different in my experience. I want to love this country and what that flag represents and all of the good. But yeah, it's almost to the point where the flag is it's like a political statement. Yeah. And
Randy 07:09
it doesn't represent a nation so much as it represents an ideology, perhaps. Yeah, it does like it. So I'm
Kyle 07:15
curious. Elliot, would you hang a Christian flag in front of your house?
Elliot 07:21
Oh, only if it's like three inches lower than the American flag, because nothing. Right? That's that's what they taught us in Awana. At least, I think. Oh, yeah. I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag. Yeah.
Kyle 07:34
Yeah. That in your yard?
Elliot 07:37
Not a chance. Not a chance. No way. No. and for no other. We
Kyle 07:40
want to probe that. And because I wouldn't either. And I suspect the reasons are similar in both cases.
Randy 07:46
I would never do that. For one thing. The Christian flag is tacky. The American flag is pretty like that's a good look. And flag we got is a Christian aesthetics.
Elliot 07:57
Christian flag white, white as snow with like a little design in the corner. The blue Yeah, square, but like basically a surrender flag other than that.
Randy 08:08
That's Jesus theme. Timely. So you wanted to hear us talk about patriotism and nationalism. So
Elliot 08:14
this is the part where now I get to be the producer again, sit back and just be in the room. And I'll just chip in with the questions when I feel like it. But yeah, now now's the part where you explain it to me until it makes perfect sense. So thanks in advance.
Randy 08:28
Excellent. Well, Mr. philosopher, what is how would you describe nationalism? Patriotism softer nationalisms harder, right?
Kyle 08:38
Well, that's, that seems to be a common usage now. Like, if you look these words up in a dictionary, nationalism, patriotism, there'll be synonyms, they'll have pretty much the same definition. So you could use them interchangeably? I don't think you can't. Yeah. Like what like one of the one of the nuances of nationalism is that it might be a stronger form of patriotism. But often they get used interchangeably. So like, the first definition of each one in a dictionary would probably be more or less the same thing. If you look them up into the source, each one will have the other one listed as a synonym,
Elliot 09:12
you're getting fact checked as you speak. Good.
Kyle 09:16
But in like in common usage, and definitely in how I think about it, it does seem like nationalism has more of a negative connotation. And patriotism is something that's ideal that you should aim for that like, every every good American is patriotic, but not every good. American is nationalistic, if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean,
Randy 09:36
so patriotism, to me seems like Love of Country Pride in my country. I'm patriotic when I I mean, you can say your patriotic when you vote when you do your civic duty, as being patriotic, but it's also when you when you fly the flag when you you know sing. I'm proud to be an American. Yep, stand for the anthem. Yeah. And then nationalism, though, to me seems to be more related to I care only about the United States of America. And I actually want to spend our dollars take them away from what we do, how we support other nations, and support our nation. It's time we focused on our nation. That seems like
Kyle 10:13
I would say that the kind of America first idea where, because I'm an American, the interests of my country come before the interests of any other country, would you put that under the umbrella of nationalism or the umbrella of patriotism or both
Randy 10:28
nationalism, so I looked it up. Patriotism is just basically strong pride in vigorous support of your of your country. And then nationalism is the same, it starts out identification with one's own with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the other interests of other nations. So it is really kind of,
Kyle 10:50
so we add in that kind of exclusionary thing, and suddenly we're at we're at nationalism,
Randy 10:54
correct. And I would say, in the church, because I'm a church guy, nationalism looks like, considering nationalism looks like considering the interests of America over and above Jesus over and above the church, considering identifying myself more as an American or more as a political party, American than as a follower of Jesus, we would never say that, but you see that all over the place.
Elliot 11:22
So this is really interesting. It's nationalism and patriotism both fly the same flag and but it seems like the flag especially in certain contexts, like for instance, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm on Twitter, and I see an American flag and somebody's Twitter bio, like, I know what they're referring to, and it's not patriotism, it at least by my definition, it feels like that's often
Kyle 11:47
paired. It's another thing to put it on your Twitter.
Randy 11:49
Yeah, there's degrees, that's for sure. Yeah.
Kyle 11:55
Or your truck? If it's the back window of your truck, next level. So do you think maybe I'll be showing my cards a little bit here, but do you think there's a positive, worthwhile valuable form of patriotism? Yes, something that's, that's ideal, and that we're gonna talk about the relationship to Christianity and the church in a few minutes, but like, something that it would be totally okay for a Christian to really get invested in this kind of country feeling.
Randy 12:28
You know what I mean? Yeah, I would say I would, I would say, yes.
Kyle 12:32
So what does that look like? Because I'm deeply suspicious of that.
Randy 12:35
Sure. Let me tell you how I feel like I wouldn't. I'm not gonna say I feel like a patriot. But I'm ways in which I'm patriotic, right? First thing is, I'm the son of an immigrant. My mom comes from was born and raised in Finland moved here when she was just just about 20. And they were my, my mom's family were elated to come to America, they were so excited to come to America, because of many things, because they felt like in Finland, they didn't have the complete religious freedom to have that they would have had in America and Finland was a democracy and stuff, but she, it's a long story that's complex. I'm just gonna leave it there. But so they felt like they would have more freedoms than they had in Finland. Also, just the America as I'm guessing it was part of this America as like the pillar of culture and advancements and technology and science and the influence that America had, they were really excited to be part of a nation like that. My mom was extremely proud of becoming an American citizen in 1984, and voting for the first time. So I mean, I grew up with barely understanding my grandparents. And so from from that perspective, I love being part of a nation that has the history and heritage have what are the plaque at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty says, give me your poor, your tired your I mean, that's, that's the coolest thing I've ever heard of a nation being being founded on an idea of just like, we'll take all your refuse. We'll take all your tired, we'll take all your poor, and we're gonna be great because of it. That is incredible to me. Yeah,
Elliot 14:16
I can get behind that too.
Randy 14:17
I also love I think the Founding Fathers even though they were slaveholders, and they were, that was that's despicable and disgusting. And we're hypocritical and all that stuff. When I read the founding documents, I am blown away by the brilliance that I find there. And another reason why I'm patriotic and why think I can say with with like, a full heart. I think America is the best nation in the world, is because we can withstand a presidency, like we have right now. Like the founding fathers were brilliant enough that we've seen. Yeah, fair enough. Hopefully we've got just a couple months left. But the reason that we don't have to really, really, really freak out out about having someone who wants to be a tyrant and a fascist fascist, is because our fun founding fathers were friggin brilliant and made it so that one person can have all the power in in broke down the powers in such a really elegant way that we can actually have a nation that's kind of gone crazy in some ways in ALEKS, someone like Donald Trump, but yet we can actually we have checks and balances that he can't just do what he wants. There's I could go on and on about why I'm really proud of my nation of my country, I can go on and on about how I'm not proud of it. But the not proud doesn't take away from the fact that I think, the American idea and what this nation was founded on, and the idea that we're a nation of immigrants, and the idea that you could go into Chicago, and you can find Chinatown and Little Italy and all these neighborhoods, the richness of ethnicities and background, and the diversity that we have is very unique to America, I would say, again, there's tons of reasons to hate it. But I think there are tons of reasons to really say, I'm a little patriotic, I like this nation.
Kyle 16:15
You I don't feel any of that. Yeah, none of that. really appeals to me, I had one patriotic moment in my life. And it surprised me actually, that I had it once I was part of it passed pretty quickly. I was part of a church group in college that would do a lot of street evangelism. And we would travel to various places on our spring breaks and do evangelistic ministry, I'll just leave it at that. And so for one of these trips, who went to Washington, DC, to convert all the politicians, I guess, I don't know. And so we were doing our typical, you know, stop people on the street to talk about Jesus thing. And super randomly, a US Representative from Texas, I won't say which one, walked by. So we were doing, this person has a Christian, liked what we're doing, and offered to give us a private tour of the Capitol that night, fun. And so we had this this relatively small group of college students, and our pastor, and this congressman, and he takes us He takes us all through Congress, the or the Capitol building, rather, he takes onto the floor of the House onto the floor of the Senate while they're in session. So there's like a C span clip of me somewhere in the house representatives while they're in session, and then, and he probably wasn't supposed to do this, he took us to the private chapel in the Capitol building. I don't know if you know this, but there's a private chapel that's used only by congresspeople and presidents. And we went in there, and we had a probably half an hour prayer session, in this private chapel sheet with this with this congressman, late at night, at this point, everybody was gone. And there's these beautiful stained glass windows, it's like circular, you can probably find a picture of it if you Google it. And I had, and we I should say we'd spent all day going to these different monuments. And so I had stood in the monument to Thomas Jefferson, and read all these quotes from Jefferson. And he was a brilliant got no doubt about it. And then I stood in the Lincoln Memorial, and I read all these brilliant quotes from Lincoln. And then you stand at the Washington Monument and you look up and it's just, you know, grand, you're overwhelming. And then this moment in this chapel, and I thought, maybe there's something to this whole patriotism thing. I felt a little moved, if I'm honest. But now looking back on it strikes me that there were no black people in the room. There were there was no mention on that entire trip of any of the underside of American democracy. Yeah, there was there was no mention in the quotes from Jefferson, that he owned and raped as slaves. There was there was no mention of any of the, you know, the genocide against Native Americans, when you're standing at the Washington Monument, looking up at that grand jury that's just not present there. It's very intentionally excluded, actually, from that kind of experience. And so I have a really hard time now, feeling proud to be a recipient of the system that is so oppressive, and has always been so oppressive. It's not like, we made some bad decisions halfway through and got away from the ideals and now it's bad. The ideals were intentionally designed to be oppressive. So you read the Constitution. And it sounds awesome. It's got all this stuff in there about everybody being created equal and everything. And then you read it in context, and you read a bit about the people that wrote it and you realize they met. If you're a white dude that owns some land, then maybe you were equal, but nobody else even counted as human. Not as fully human. So they weren't in tended to be in the scope of. So even even the sort of beautiful ideals that we think are set up at the beginning, I no longer see as beautiful anymore because they weren't set up for they were set up for people like me. But no one else really. And I have a really hard time getting on board with even the ideals. Now, if it really had been the Statue of Liberty thing all the way back, that'd be one thing. But that's just anachronistic.
Randy 20:24
But that really happened. Like, we got all the immigrants and all the people who were desperate in desperate places in their, in their home countries, and just gave up everything to come here. And of course, they came here and found, you know, all sorts of hatred and all sorts of exclusion and all sorts of things. But that really happened.
Kyle 20:47
Sure, yeah. And of course, I'm sure there were pockets here. And there were the kind of American dream of having a really multicultural community where everybody has a chance to succeed. When they start with nothing, there probably been pockets here. And there was something like that was approximated. But that's just not been the norm for the overwhelming majority of immigrants. And so when I see somebody flying the flag or putting it on their truck or whatever, just makes me wonder what they what they think it represents, what does that symbol mean to you? And do you understand that it means something entirely different for most people? Absolutely lived in the United States.
Randy 21:30
I totally agree with that. Here's my here's, here's what I'm wondering, Kyle. You're far more liberal than I am. And what I find in extremely quiet liberal people is an inability to look at an issue. In in parse it as like, good and bad. It's It feels very dualistic to me, that you wouldn't be able to say, I can celebrate the goodness and the beauty of fill in the blank. Tonight we're talking about American or nation, that it's all bad, because it's it's quite a bit bad. Right? That that I don't understand. Yeah.
Kyle 22:11
It's not an inability so much as a choice. And and many liberals, I can't speak for all liberals obviously, would say it's a forced choice. Because yes, it's not all bad. But enough of it was. And enough of it is. And those who tend to say it's not all bad, are the recipients of the system that was designed for that kind of person. Sure. So there, it's not an accident, that high levels of American patriotism, are concentrated in the white population, that if you were to serve a people of color, you would notice a lot fewer of them being patriotic that that's by design. So yes, I can recognize there, there are good things about the country. There are good things about the way it was structured, just politically speaking. And there are some good things about some of the ideals, not all of which were original to the founding of them. But we have very rarely in our history lived up to those ideals. It's happened, but it's the exception rather than the rule. And until it becomes the rule, I have a hard time being really gung ho about being a product of this particular political system.
Elliot 23:26
Yeah. So I can't resist just for a minute, I want to get back to the mike pence quote. Kyle, when we were Off mic a little earlier, you had an take on this that caught me a little off guard, share that here.
Kyle 23:39
So the funny thing to me about this quote is that and this will come out a little more clearly when we do our, our Bible episodes, so stay tuned for those but I'm actually okay. From like a hermeneutical perspective or an exegetical perspective. I'm okay with this kind of use of Scripture. So
Randy 23:54
the kind of because you're a heretic,
Kyle 23:57
far, far be it for me to defend Mike Pence. Okay. But don't don't misunderstand. But so the the kind of use where you, you draw on a piece of text that, you know, your audience is going to recognize, and, you know, they're going to recognize it as important. And, you know, they're gonna recognize it as the sort of thing that they have used to defined what what membership in their community means. And so you, you appeal to that in an obvious way. So you know, that they're in on it. It's not deceptive, presumably, I don't know if Mike Pence well, whether or not it's manipulative depends on the context, right. So there was there's a philosopher is gonna get a little heady, there is phosphor named HP Grice. And he wrote about norms of conversation. And he said, there are certain Maxim's that are assumed in conversation with people and a lot of these depend on context. So one of them is you assume people are going to tell you the truth when you talk to them and you assume they're gonna give you the right amount of information. When you talk to them. It's another norm. And he says, You can violate these norms and dishonesty. It would be a way of violating them. But you can also flout them, which means you violate them. But the person, your audience knows that you're violating them, and they're in on it. And that's what happens when we when we use metaphors, for example. So I'm I'm flouting. When I use a metaphor, the maxim of quality, which means I'm saying a thing that we both know is obviously false. It's not really raining cats and dogs, but I'm not lying to you, and I'm not manipulating you, I'm, I'm speaking in a way that you're in on the joke. And so if that's what Pence is doing here, I'm okay with that. And my view of Scripture is such that it's not immune to that, and it shouldn't be held apart from that sort of thing. I'm totally okay with that use. For me, what controls what should control the use is not some kind of adherence to the authority of the text or the, you know, the purity of the text or something like that. It's morality. So, so what should control the use is what is actually good, what is actually edifying. And in this case, it seems to me that Pence is, is using the text for something immoral. It's not that he's using the text inappropriately, because it's the Bible. It's that he's using this text inappropriately, because its goal is immoral, which is, which is to uphold the United States as a bastion of equality and freedom, which it isn't. This is immoral. And it would be immoral if you did it with the Great Gatsby. Moral if you did it with the Koran. It's not my faithfulness to the text that makes this bother me. It's my faithfulness to a moral code.
Randy 26:40
So that's the philosopher's take, which is Yeah, legit. The pastor's take is this is just the epitome of not only nationalism, but and if you're if you're a Trump pence supporter, and you're listening, God bless you, we love you. But this is also the epitome of heresy. If we're just going to be honest, right? I mean, the early church, if the early church would have taken Hebrews 12, one through two, which is let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. If the early church would have replaced Jesus with the Roman Empire, that person's baptism would have been revoked, and they would have been seen as heretics. Literally, I mean, it would, it's just so counterintuitive to what we find in the in the early church in the Roman Empire, in the Roman Empire, calling for worship calling for Caesar worship. This is actually giving America the American empire, Caesar worship, replacing Jesus with Old Glory.
Elliot 27:37
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Kyle 28:14
Maybe I should maybe I should say this, this could be something I could grow in, I suppose I tend to probably collapse, the distinction between patriotism and nationalism that we've been making. So for me to have a feeling of patriotism implies that this is just my experience. It implies the exclusion of other ways of doing things or other countries, or other political system much like, I'm not a sports fan, but I imagine that when you're a fan of a sports team, being a fan of that sports team implies you're not a fan of many other teams, you think your team is objectively better?
Randy 28:48
No, I know the factors are objectively better.
Kyle 28:51
Exactly you're making. So you know, I do not believe that the United States is an objectively better political system than all of the other ones in the world that would just be not consistent with the evidence we have, as far as I can tell. So if it's if it's not actually objectively better, as a political system as an economic system, as you name it, has its history, whatever, then what else is it that would make me feel proud of it?
Randy 29:17
Well, so I don't think you can say, you could probably say it's not, you couldn't, you can't prove it's the best political system. But it's a really good one. I mean, if you if you, like, consider other political, whatever
Kyle 29:31
metrics we could use. And I'm speaking here, not as a political scientist, not as a political philosopher, even it's not my field. But it seems that whatever metrics we would use to determine what makes for a good country, there are quite a few other countries that would do at least as well on all of those metrics as the United States would, and some of them would do better across the board.
Randy 29:52
In some of them, like took their model from us. And while some
Kyle 29:57
of them are much older than us, too, though, sure. Yeah, so I mean, well, I don't want to get into specifics of other political systems and economies, but it's just like, I'll say this much, people who are political scientists, people who are political philosophers, people whose job it is to study these things, they do not tend to believe that the United States is superior to all the other countries in the world. It's I haven't done any hard studies here, but I'm pretty certain that you would see a declining, if you were to graph it out, the people who have that kind of expertise would be much less likely to view it that way than the people who don't have that kind of expertise. And that tells me that just comparatively, from a totally objective point of view, the United States is not vastly superior. And it seems like to be a patriot, you have to convince yourself that it is in some way superior. And if it's not, according to those objective metrics, then what is it? Maybe it's the ideal, and that's fine. They're good ideals. But then we don't always live up to the IDs.
Randy 31:02
Now, I mean, I would agree with you in that. Political scientists wouldn't universally say that America has the best political system somewhat for sure. But I would again, say, I mean, just because Britain is is way older than we are. We were a republic or democracy, whatever you want to say it far, far before we were in, we probably actually started their parliament parliamentary system, because they didn't become have the parliamentary system and didn't become a democracy until early in the in the 20th century, while we were rolling in that. So I do think it's important to see that we, in some ways, and some of you historians and Political Science buffs are going to just write us in and talk about how terrible
Kyle 31:43
what should interview one I mean, that would that would be useful. Yeah, I feel like we're kind of grasping for
Elliot 31:48
The phone lines are open.
Randy 31:51
But I would say I don't I don't know if many nations who established a democracy and a republic way of going about business. I don't know if money before America. I mean, that's, that's why we were started.
Elliot 32:05
Okay, so let me ask this, as somebody who who grew up in a church and who subscribes to the ways of Christ tries to live that out. How should I be thinking about my, my Christianity in regard to my patriotism, you know, if you hear the adage that this is a Christian nation, and you know, in many ways, our roots are there, but at the same time, it feels it feels so odd the way that patriotism has sometimes become so enmeshed in the church, like I remember singing like, you know, Battle Hymn flag or things like the Republic. Yeah, on a Sunday around the Fourth of July, we're doing that. How do I deal with this as a Christian though, that's, that's the, it, there's so enmeshed and it just doesn't feel like they should be. And yet, I feel like there's some faith based duty to my country that I can't quite put my finger on.
Kyle 32:57
I'll just say this. And then I'll let Randy talk. The only church service I've ever walked out of was a fourth of July service that is a megachurch, so they had these huge screens with the, you know, the lyrics or whatever. And they had waving American flags as the background behind the lyrics, and they were singing that Lee Greenwood song proud. And, and they had the American flag on the stage right next to the Christian flag. And everybody, they get to the chorus and everybody spontaneously stands. And it's the exact same feeling you would have in any worship service. Except that it's about America, not Jesus. And I just, it was the closest idolatry I've ever felt. And I just had to go.
Randy 33:37
I mean, pure idolatry. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, I remember growing up in we would be in the north woods on vacation during the fourth of July, and we'd go to a little north woods church that doubled in size because of the tourist season. And we our favorite Service of the Year, maybe third favorite after Easter, and Christmas was Fourth of July, where we'd sing all the patriotic songs, and the pastor would preach about it. And my family loved it. I mean, just straight up loved it to now when I think of having something like the Battle Hymn of the Republic, sing in a church, it makes me want to throw up. I mean, it just blows me away. But let's, let's not talk about the extreme because that's obvious. That's nasty. That's terrible. We I mean, but that's important because the extreme like the the exact service you were talking about, Kyle, that's what people see. Right? That's part of why more and more people especially more and more younger people in our world want nothing to do with the church because they see the idolatry they see the the absolute disgusting practices of bowing down in front of the flag, and they want nothing to do with it. So I think that's important in and of itself. And then I think, we find that I mean, we let our theology be shaped by so many things as human beings we're human beings with with filters and with experiences. And you know, Kyle would do well to talk more about that. But one of those things is us being Americans and us being Republicans as being Democrats as being liberals as being conservatives. And what I'm finding, as a pastor, more and more had been a pastor for, shoot almost 14 years. And I've, I'm just seeing this huge escalation of people who completely let their faith faith be formed around their ideology. And their theology is completely politicized. And I think that's a form of nationalism. I think we've, we've given our nation and the conversation about our nation and our political world, in our political, you know, chaos. And we've actually let things like race and racism and racial injustice and inequality, the way you feel about that the way you talk about that probably is determined not by your faith, not by whether or not you follow Jesus is probably determined by what political party you're part of. And how you see that, whether we're talking about all sorts of things I've just noticed in been shocked by how much Christians right now in America, have given our faith and our theology over to politics in our nation. And that is, that's idolatry.
Kyle 36:18
Yeah, if you were to ask the average Evangelical, what the most important issues facing the church and Christianity are, or culture in general are most likely you'd get a list that aligns pretty closely to a political party and has very little to do with anything you read the New Testament. Some of the major themes are the New Testament, dying to self greed, taking care of the poor, privileging the, you know, the perspective of the marginalized, or God loving your enemies. These are not part of any current political platform that I'm aware of. But things that never get mentioned in the New Testament are you'd think that they were what the whole book was about to attend some of these church services regularly.
Randy 37:01
Yep, absolutely. Yeah. So that's, I think that probably Elliott is why you looked at a flag thought, Oh, that looks cool. Yeah. But I don't think I'd ever be able to fly that in my flip my house. Yeah.
Elliot 37:14
It carries too much of those other meanings with it. Yeah. One of the things that's going on with the flag, I think we're touching on it. But there's like such an alignment right now of the especially the evangelical church with the political right that like it works for when Pence is in Pewaukee next week, like that's the first step of the faith and America tour, which, which is like, it's intended to smash these two things together. For a large subset of people who call themselves Christians. That's like, that is the thing they cling to. I don't know, we've talked a lot about politics already. I don't know how helpful is to go deeper there. But that's a I know, for me, that that feeling of not being able to hang an American flag is much more acute in this setting than it was even four or five years ago.
Kyle 38:06
Because you know, you fly in you mean one thing, but you know, that if somebody drives by and sees it on your house, they're gonna immediately lump you in with the kind of thing that you hate. I mean, the kind of thing that you actually think stands against the symbol. Yep. You mean, you intend to say something
Elliot 38:23
in a really unfortunate way it's become a symbol. This is extreme to say, but it's become a symbol of hatred, because it It's the symbol most clung to by the voices that I see propagating the most divisiveness, hatred and oppression in our current discourse.
Randy 38:41
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's part of this mixture of faith and nation and patriotism and nationalism, and in politics, where, you know, you see faith in America to her and you would just hope that Christians were smart enough to see to see how they're being pandered to, and how they're being just completely used by a person who said it's okay to grab women by their genitals and a person who calls other nations shithole countries and if you're offended by this language, I'm just quoting a president. If a person who has is notorious for being a sexist, misogynistic, sex crazed, hasn't having affairs, I mean, you could just go down the list making fun of mentally disabled people do you know there's just so much to it? And yet he stands in front of a church and holds the Bible up a week or two ago, and now they start this faith in America process and are show and I want to say so many other words, but I don't want to offend people.
Elliot 39:49
I wonder if there'll be any flag hugging in this one? That was a favorite feature of the last round of campaigns, boy, really remember that? Yeah, he hugged the flag like two or three without without consent.
Randy 40:01
Yep. And, and to be fair, I mean, Joe Biden is pandering to the black community. Of course he is. And he's pandering to all sorts of people. But when, when a politician panders towards the church, that's when I get, that's when my hackles go up. And that's when I get a little suspicious. And that's when I get a little angry. And so that I think, is where we see this intersection of nationalism and the church becoming an extremely dangerous thing. Because what we've done in America now, and particularly in the evangelical church, is giveaway our unique gospel identity, and just given it over to the nation and to a political party, and that is not Christianity.
Kyle 40:42
Yeah. Yeah. And it wouldn't. Here I'm about to do the thing that I sometimes get on to other people for doing I'm going to point out a problem on the other side, too. Good. Yeah. It wouldn't be any more Christian, if the political tables were reversed. We could find times in American history not that long ago, when the Democratic Party did the same damn thing. And it was no
Randy 41:04
more Christian than that absolutely is now just discussed.
Kyle 41:07
The state of things now is that one party is much, much, much worse than the other one. That's just the historical moment that we're in. But anybody can do this any any American can begin to think in a way that their political beliefs and their religious beliefs are, they can't be separated. They're basically one in the same thing. We all have friends and family like this, I think. And that's just straightforward. Idolatry, exactly. It's the exact kind of thing that's described at several instances in the Bible as the sort of thing you might ought to stay away from. Absolutely. But when it happens to you, it's so difficult to see.
Randy 41:47
Yep. I mean, in as we continue this, I mean, you think about what's happening in our nation right now, where, you know, I just this afternoon, marched through my neighborhood with a Black Lives Matter sign and we want went to a police station asking for that police chief to be fired and an officer who's killed three black young men in within five years to be fired as well. Right and, but what what we find is this reality that the same people who are telling us to shut up in quiet down, are telling us to do that, when this was all started by a police officer kneeling on a black man's neck for nine, almost nine minutes, and we get to watch this man die, not even die, be murdered, watch his body drain of urine. And it's the most disgusting thing I may have ever seen on video. And those people are saying, You need to shut up. All lives matter. This is not a thing. Please be quiet. Go home. Don't protest that this should be done. Those same exact people when Colin Kaepernick is taking a knee in the NFL stadium for a stupid football game now i friggin love football and love the Packers, but it's football. And these same people who were who were telling us to sit down and shut up Don't talk when Colin Kaepernick is taking a knee because during the national anthem because he's wanting to protest police violence towards black black and brown people. Those people were the ones posting like nobody's business all over social media, all sorts of anger. Having our president sake, get that get that son of a bitch off the field. I mean, and they're cheering they love it. That is nationalism gone wrong in that is there's there's no Christ in that whatsoever. It's devoid of Christ. Sorry, I got preachy. I didn't leave a whole lot of room for you, Kyle.
Kyle 43:41
That's okay. Um, I don't know how deeply we want to go into this. But a major reason that that's so anti Christ is the implied violence in it. Explain that. So, you know, so Trump has literally stood at rallies and encouraged violence. And then when he says, violent things, violence happens, you know, you see upticks and politicized violence. And it's my view. And we could have a whole separate episode on this. But it's my view that Christianity is inherently nonviolent, that if you're going to be a follower of Jesus, that means, quite literally, divesting yourself of the use of violence and force to get your way or to get the way of the kingdom. Jesus very explicitly says, My kingdom is not of this world. And the evidence that he provided for that was that if it were we would use violence to accomplish our goals, and instead, we approach those who use violence against us with love, and with trying to absorb their violence, and wishing and good on them instead, serving them. That seems it seems to me as the DNA of Christianity, that's what really makes it unique among the world religions that that I found is that kind of really strong emphasis on love of enemies. And insistence on peace building and nonviolent approach. And that is like the opposite of how nations like ours function. So, so another I guess another reason, I'm realizing that I have an issue with being a patriot, even in the good sense is that, at the end of the day, what I'm feeling proud of, is something that is inherently violent, that defends itself with force, and has to, I mean, you can't have a world power without a strong military. And in my reading of the New Testament, the use of the military at all is already non Christian. So I have a real hard time. That's probably another reason I have real hard to because I feel like my allegiances are divided. If I'm going to be a patriot for this thing, then I can't really be a full fledged member of the kingdom of Jesus. Yeah, that's a strong claim.
Randy 46:06
Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, here, let me tell you, the most patriotic I've been in a very, very long time. It just, it's been these last few weeks, when I'm marching, often alongside Elliot and my daughter. And there's these chants that happen. And they're really fun. I was just telling Ellie before we came in that I haven't going through my head all the time now. But one of them says this, there's always it's always a call and response. In the guy with a megaphone, or the goat girl with a megaphone goes, tell me what democracy looks like. And we all say, This is what democracy looks like, as we're marching through the streets of our city, closing them down, in the police are standing by watching, hopefully, right? As you as we chant that over and over again, tell me what democracy looks like. This is what democracy looks like, that makes me proud. That makes me patriotic, even though the real patriots would say that's not being patriotic whatsoever. But that's pretty cool. As we're walking down Street, shutting it down, and we're just saying chance, like, if we don't get what we need, shut it down. And that's what we're doing is shutting down streets shutting down, you know, all sorts of things. So that's fun. Yeah.
Kyle 47:20
Yeah. And I assume you're, you're committed to a nonviolent approach to that shutting off course, which not all activists are not, we have to just be honest about that. And there's very well argued, perspectives against that approach.
Randy 47:33
And the reality right now is that most of the activists are not doing the looting in the violence. It's mostly agitators who are trying to cause chaos. Sure, but yeah, peaceful protest.
Kyle 47:42
But But I don't want to like, you know, totally discount the view that says no, sometimes violence as of as a form of political activism is acceptable. But for me, as a Christian, I don't feel like I can say that. Absolutely. I feel like I'm committed to the view, that nonviolent peacemaking is the only way of Jesus's kingdom. And so insofar as I can take that way, and also apply it to political purposes, to affect real positive change, and in a democracy like ours, that's a great thing. But it still feels to me as though I am pulling in values from my Christianity that are maybe at odds fundamentally with the thing I'm trying to fix, which is, you know, the United States political system. Does that make sense?
Elliot 48:31
Yeah, it does. And you're touching on something that has often been a tension for me as in how when much of our patriotism is tied to our veterans, and people who have who have fought for us and my my grandpa is a world war two vet and that's something that all my life I've been taught to honor and it seems like such a sacrifice and such a is a truly like, it's a valiant effort. And and a an effort that wasn't wasn't self serving, as much as it was to write severe and justices. This was the best, the best of America and yet it was extreme force and extreme violence. And so it seems like there's some first or some rightness to that in moments. It might not be the kingdom way it might not be ideal and yet here we are. And then also as somebody who's who is not enlisted myself and who that it's such a foreign concept to me that I would take orders from a commander in chief you know, through through ranks doing doing things that I might not even agree with put my life on the line like that's a that would require some pretty significant acrobatics, mental acrobatics for me. Yeah, it feels like there's a place of honor even of those Some of those most violent efforts, what do you think of that?
Kyle 50:05
This is a sticky thing for me. I think it's possible to honor someone and someone's actions and the selflessness of their actions, while simultaneously believing that those actions are unfortunate. You can make great and courageous sacrifices for things that are not worth your sacrifice. And so, you know, I have family too, that were veterans of the military, my my own father, my grandfather on my mom's side. And I have a great deal of respect for a lot of veterans that I've known. In fact, one of my personal heroes is a Medal of Honor recipient. I've gotten him Desmond Doss. But but the reason he's my hero is because he was the only conscientious objector to ever receive the Medal of Honor. And, and he was pacifist because he was a Christian for the same reasons that I am. So he made is that the Clint Eastwood movies were described, was a Hacksaw Ridge. I think it was Mel Gibson, the direct Yeah,
Randy 51:08
what a movie, what a story antastic. And
Kyle 51:10
it's all true. I mean, he, he made the same kind of sacrifice, he just refused to kill, he refuse to use violence to harm others. And so instead, he literally pulled bodies off the battlefield. That, to me is a great picture of the Christians role in the state, as far as I can tell. So So I simultaneously want to honor the kind of courage and selflessness that it takes to join a fight like that, especially when the costs are as high as they were in World War Two, which is when he got his Medal of Honor. But I don't think I don't think I can say, because of my Christianity, because of my understanding of Jesus's ethic. I don't think I can say that, that in all cases, when veterans make that sacrifice, that it's overall a good thing. Or that they're that their sacrifice is worthwhile, that it's for something that actually improves the world. War is a terrible thing. It's a great evil. And it's not a good way to solve problems. It's a fundamentally irrational thing in many ways. I have actually a quote here from a philosopher named Blaise Pascal, I love passcamp heard of who was a Christian, devout Christian. And he's just read a little snippet of this quote, he says, Can anything be more ridiculous than that a man should have the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of the water. And because his ruler has a quarrel with mind, though I have known with him. And he goes on in a similar vein and the rest of the passage and there's the there's like a deep sense of irrationality in war, the idea that, that I have the right to take the life of another person for reasons that I don't understand, when I have nothing against that other person. And they have nothing against me. And at the at a single order from either of our authorities, we could just be friends, instead, there's something deeply irrational and deeply immoral about that. And so while I can admire the willingness of someone to sacrifice for a cause that they believe is greater than themselves. I still because I'm a philosopher must insist that the cause really is worthwhile. And the fact of the matter is, it usually isn't. Now, we can find major historical exceptions, World War Two was an obvious exception. But for the most part, fours or not fours are not rational and they're not moral.
Randy 53:41
If you're listening in you're perhaps even a veteran, or you're, you love a veteran, you're married to one or, you know, you just vehemently disagree with what Kyle just said, which I'm pretty sure many of us are you are. Here's something to just hold and take seriously. In the early church, it was just taken as a given that if a soldier of the Roman Empire converted to Christianity, they were just expected to lay down their arms and give up being soldier. That was just the expectation, the call to non violence was very, very clear in the early church, very clear through all the church fathers. So if we are, you know, gun toting, you know, war rallying war, crying, patriots, we need and we call ourselves Christians, we need to take seriously the foundations of our faith, which was very clearly non violence, and arguably pacifistic. So you need to wrestle with that. That being said, I'm not completely a pacifist. I think war is atrocious. I think war is ugly. I don't like I used to watch. I grew up in a family where we watched the war movies all the time. And those were some of the best movies we watched. I loved him. And I still think there's some really good more movies like 1917 We just saw that it was amazing movie, but I feel In general, can't watch more movies anymore because they disgust me. Because we're being entertained by human beings being maimed and tortured and brutally killed. I can't do it. That's, that's just awful. And people are making millions of dollars basing off, you know, being entertained by that. And we're establishing a culture then that just completely dense desensitizes ourselves to violence, all that most of the wars, I will say most of the wars in history I would disagree with, but then there is, for instance, and you know, where I'm gonna go, World War Two, how I don't, this is where I can't be a pacifist, Kyle. And we've had this conversation a number of times, but 6 million Jewish people were tortured, and brutally murdered, and millions more than that made it out alive, but we're traumatized. Like no other human being maybe has ever been traumatized. And for and Hitler was an absolute nutbag. He was just a maniacal tyrant, who thought he could take over the world. And he started trying, and he was pretty good at it. And he was very strategic with it. I mean, he rolled through Paris, like nobody, like it was just, they laid down arms and rode through one of the biggest, most powerful cities and nations in Western Europe. And really thinking about a pacifist nation saying, now we'll just it's of course, he was a pacifist wouldn't say I will just let that happen. But I mean, you couldn't, you couldn't be smart. And seriously, look at me and say, I think I could have talked Hitler out of it right? Or I think there's other ways to, you could have stopped Hitler without war. I don't buy it. And until you can convince me that you could stop a person like a maniac, like Hitler and a bunch of people who he's brainwashed from torturing and killing and trying to literally wipe out a human race. I can't be a pacifist, I couldn't stand by and watch that happen and be okay with it. Because we can use violent means to put us put an end to utter awful evil, and I know that you're using evil to defeat evil. But I just can't. I can't stand by and let that one walk by.
Kyle 57:13
Yeah. So we should have a separate episode on pacifism. I don't want to go to to the depths on that right now. I'll just say I don't think pacifism as a view as a doctrine stands or falls with its ability to reply to that question. There's a whole spectrum of views within the umbrella of pacifism. Some would go to the extreme of Yeah, combating Hitler with force was morally wrong. Despite the cost. I wouldn't go that far. But there are other views within the umbrella that wouldn't go to extreme. But fundamentally, it's focused on the positive form of action, rather than trying to answer all of the what if questions, and it's a positive ethic, it's about our primary focus, being on peacebuilding. Even when things are good, like long before a threat like Hitler comes to the fore, what can we do in our society to ensure that that sort of thing doesn't happen? So once it gets that bad, yeah, maybe the pacifist is in the same boat with everybody else. And you have a case like Dietrich Bonhoeffer who was a pacifist and was very conflicted about what he should do. But if we had been acting according to pacifist principles all along, we wouldn't have been in that
Randy 58:26
situation. It's a very idealistic way of looking at it. But okay, if
Kyle 58:28
people Yeah, I mean, the gospel is fundamentally idealistic. It's the idea that you can be a perfect human, if you adopt the ethic of this guy that came and showed
Randy 58:38
and that's a big if that's, that's, that's it, right? There is, yeah, we can turn the world into Christians. Praise Lord, although not sure if you look at Christianity in America,
Kyle 58:47
but I, I'm committed to the view and as part of my theological direction of anabaptism, I'm committed to the view that to be a member of the kingdom of Jesus means to live like Jesus did. It means to embody the Sermon on the Mountain now, even if it's unpopular, and even if it seems unrealistic, and even if it's even doomed to failure in many cases, if we don't do it now, later generations are going to have no model for how to do it. I don't think that, you know, don't take the view that the church just sort of does the best it can and then waits for Jesus to come back and fix things. I mean, it's our job to the things. Jesus fixes things through us. So yes, it's idealistic. Yes, it's difficult to believe, but it's also what Jesus said. It's in about individuals. And if I'm committed to that, yeah, yeah. And guess what the only Christians are individuals. There's no such thing as you know, you can't have a Christian community without Christian individuals. Jesus didn't really seem very interested in describing how a good political system works. His kingdom was a different from that. And it was based on the faith of individuals
Randy 59:59
Yep. So I've got things to say. But we can stop that now. But one last thing to go go back to your question Elliot, about how do we can we or should we honor veterans even or, you know, people who've sacrificed. I baptize somebody I don't know, three, four years ago, who was just wonderful man, really, really good man, who is a veteran and who he told me as part of everyone who I baptized, I just get to know them. And I get to know their story and where the why they are wanting to be baptized. And he said he joined the military because he wanted to help people. That's why he joined the military because he wanted to go on peacekeeping missions. And, and the reality is that a huge part of the American military's still today is in places that we really don't need to be, but we're actually keeping the peace. We're actually bringing aid to impoverished areas. That's not like the universal case, obviously. But there are people who get into the military just because they say, I want to do good in the world, I want to help those who can't help themselves around the world. And I know that the American military is doing that.
Kyle 1:01:05
So you're good. You're good Lutheran boy, right? Or you were
Randy 1:01:10
Baptist and Lutheran, both sides.
Kyle 1:01:12
So the Lutherans as I understand that have this view that they called two kingdoms view that I recall, is the idea that you hold kind of a dual allegiance. So you're, you're a member of the kingdom of Jesus, but you're also a member of the kingdom of the state that you exist in. And it's almost like you have these separate spheres and separate responsibilities. How would you respond to
Elliot 1:01:35
its give to Caesar what is Caesar's and gift? Yeah,
Randy 1:01:39
I mean, there's a little bit of pollen there, right? So I can, I don't totally flush it. But when we talk about allegiance again, all of my allegiance goes to Christ goes to the Lamb and His Kingdom and in absolutely no other. So. So I get it, why Luther Luther and Lutherans would say that, but at the same time, I don't think we need to do that. I don't think Jesus is asking us to do that. I think Jesus is asking for all of our allegiance and all of our all of our stuff. Yeah. Do you pledge allegiance by the way? Yeah,
Elliot 1:02:14
just tend to avoid settings where it could potentially happen.
Kyle 1:02:17
I mean, honestly, we don't have to put this in the podcast, but I'm closer to burning an American flag. Like I feel more patriotic when I see videos of black people. Yeah,
Randy 1:02:28
no, I'm with history. Yeah.
Elliot 1:02:30
Yeah, I think the upside down flag is nice. Like that. That feels patriotic to me. Yeah. Like it's yeah, it's still it's the flag, but it's also recognition that something is deeply wrong. I like that. Maybe that's what I'll do with my front porch.
Randy 1:02:44
Right. So Kyle, when we have when we talk about patriotism and nationalism, we talk about in the church, there's this another kind of ripple to it in that it feels like we Christians, many Christians, particularly again, sorry, not sorry, evangelicals, give this feel that Americans and probably Israelites, right like that God favors the USA in Israel over any other nation. And the other people group that we are the chosen ones, we are the favored ones. We are the you know, we are God's near one nation under God. And well, Israel's Israel, of course, right. So of course, God loves them more than most most others. Have you obviously felt that I mean, tell me, tell me some thoughts on the
Kyle 1:03:31
Pentecostal are converted to a kind of Pentecostalism and college. And I remember a lot of Pentecostal preacher, it's making this kind of point. They think that if you're not for the nation of Israel as it exists today, then you're somehow not consistent with the Bible. Because God intentionally blessed Israel, not any of the other countries of the world. He chose Israel, ignoring, of course, the fact that he chose Israel in order to bless to be a blessing to all the nations currently apart. But, you know, they focus on Israel itself. And they seem, it displays a remarkable lack of historical creativity that they seem unable to separate Israel, as it existed in the Bible from Israel, post 1940. As though as though the State of Israel that exists today is the identical entity that was described in the MO. So I guess my take on that is I just don't see anything in the Bible that that actually necessitates that I take any view about the current state of the state of Israel. It just doesn't it kind of like the issue of evolution. I just don't see anything in the Bible about it. So I'm free to take any position I want on that I don't see anything in the Bible about the modern day state of Israel. So I'm free to take any position on that I want. And I can consider the evidence just like I would with any other state. And I can notice, for example, that Israel is guilty of a gross amount of human rights violations against Palestinians. And I don't have to pretend that that's okay. Because the Bible somehow necessitates that I take a positive view of Israel.
Randy 1:04:58
Yeah, and I mean, we You in the church need to be pro Israel. I actually mean that, because, and I mean that because every single person who lives in Israel or considers themselves themselves, an Israelite, has the Imago Dei on them, and bear the image of God. And so therefore, they have unsurpassed what
Kyle 1:05:17
we call a bait and
Randy 1:05:18
switch. So of course, because they have served us for getting excited, because they bear the image of God, they have unsurpassable worth and value. And I think we need to be pro Palestine, as well and pro Palestinian, because every single Palestinian person who exists, who is alive and breathing right now bears the image of God. And so that means they also have unsurpassable worth and value. And so you can go on down the line, no person, no nation can have more value than another because every human being who is alive, is completely loved by God and has unsurpassable worth and value because of the Imago Dei and God, there's a going back to Revelation, there's this picture of every tribe, tongue and nation worshiping God together. And it's a picture that comes over and over again. And so it seems like, you know, like we're saying, now, don't sing I'm colorblind is really just a tone deaf thing to say, also saying, God doesn't care about nationalities and cultures. And all that stuff, I think is silliness as well, because God, all of that comes from God and His unique and bears the image of God and the Imago Dei, in a unique way. And so I think God really loves that and celebrates that. And we find him that in the book of Revelation, where we get maybe the truest picture of what God really cares about and what the what's going to be in the end after God judges all things, which by that I mean that God sets all things too, right. So yeah, be pro Israel pro Palestine. And if you don't, you gotta read your Bible a little better.
Kyle 1:06:46
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's remarkable that in the book of Revelation, it's a very multicultural set of celebrating people. Yes, that very explicitly, all the nations of the world, gather together. Yeah. And one thing worth one thing worth noting here, and again, we could have a whole separate episode on this if we wanted to, is that looking to the Bible for your current foreign policy? Maybe not a great idea, looking to the Old Testament for what you should believe about nationalism, also, maybe not a great idea. Because all of those books were written by nationalists in the negative sense. I mean, the oldest portions of the Old Testament aren't even monotheistic, they are Hino theistic, which means they accept the existence of multiple deities, and they think that their deity is the best and most powerful because it is their nation's deity. So you're gonna get a lot of nationalism in the text, and which partially explains why there's are so many nationalistic Christians because they read the Bible kind of uncritically and assume that anything represented there in is didactic, yeah, it's something that I must believe
Randy 1:07:57
in. Now you're opening up a can of worms that we shouldn't or hermeneutical approach. Now you're opening up a can of worms that we should wait, we'd have a separate conference or but I'll just say this, not only is you know that probably true that the you know, books of the Bible, were written by nationalists, but also, the whole of the Bible was written by marginalized people. And to me, of course, if you're a marginalized people group who have been enslaved and, and conquered over and over again, of course, you're going to have this really strong national identity, because every friggin nation around you has tried to strip you of it. And of course, you're gonna have this different way of seeing reality and history and all that stuff. Right. So the Bible being written by marginalized people has astounding effects on our sacred text, and we would do well to see them but let's, let's have some fun with that in a later episode.
Kyle 1:08:48
Yeah, for sure. So, Randy, to close, here's a zinger for you. Do you think that Christians ought to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
Randy 1:09:00
Well, I mean, I will tell you this one doesn't and can't. And I probably think yeah, I hope every Christian reevaluate whether or not you think it's appropriate to say the Pledge of Allegiance. I said, the Pledge of Allegiance all the way through until several years ago, where I studied the book of Revelation, and really got down into it for sermon series, fell in love with it. And now that's probably really weird, because most Christians think that the book of Revelation is all about fire in judgment and end times and when everything's going to happen, and all that stuff, but really the book of Revelation is a book about allegiance. And by that I mean, the earliest Christians that John was writing to from the island of Patmos were persecuted people because they couldn't give their allegiance to Caesar, the most powerful man in the world right. The book of revelations about empires and kingdoms in which one we give our legions to Caesar. When the book of Revelation was written, demanded, and his soldiers demanded pure allegiance to Caesar and to the Roman Empire, they not only demanded pure allegiance, they demanded worship of Caesar, there's this. It's called Caesar cult. And you actually had to sacrifice to Caesar, like he was a god, Caesar called himself, the Son of God, that's on coins, it's literal history. The when the Roman soldiers would conquer a city, they would come out and recite the gospel of Rome, the gospel of the Roman Empire, how you have been delivered, now by Lord Caesar. And now all of a sudden, you have a bunch of people who say, your Lord is not Caesar, your Lord's name Jesus. And you cannot bow a need to any other, any other ruler or any other authority. Besides Jesus, your allegiance belongs completely to Jesus. And that's what the book of Revelation is really, in large part about is Jesus coming to his churches and say, Stand strong, be strong, even in the face of oppression, even in the face of persecution, even in the face of death, your allegiance belongs to me. And I will give you the crown of life if you persevere through it all. And that to me is we have the sword of the empire on one hand, asking for our allegiance in our, our, our commitment and our worship. And we have the Lamb of God, this who was slain before all eternity, who the Empire murdered, but he has triumphed over it. And now he's saying your legions belongs to me. And so once I saw that, and once I flush that out a little bit, I just, I went to my next, my son's next boy scout meeting, and had the moment where we put our hands over our hearts and standard attention. And I was like, Holy crap. I can't say these words. I can't do it. And so now I'm that awkward dad who stands off in the corner with his hands folded during the Pledge of Allegiance when all the other dads and moms are doing it. And all the kids are saying, and I just can't do it. I've got one other Christian friend with me who thinks the same and we stand together, and hope that no one else notices us.
Elliot 1:12:03
So, Randy cow, thanks for taking on this topic. I know it's a big one. I can't say you resolved a lot of the tension that I still feel around this. But it's a I think it's a good reminder, as in so many areas, we have to keep clinging to the beauty and the truth that we might find kind of stacked several layers deep in really complex issues as we think about nationalism. And we can leave that one out. So you think about patriotism and and how that fits. I think it's it's been helpful to me to think critically about this hopefully to our listeners as well. So thanks for taking this on.
Lee 1:12:43
"From the lakes of Minnesota to the hills of Tennessee, across the plains of Texas, from sea to shining sea ..."
Elliot 1:13:03
Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this conversation. You can find us on social media. Like and share and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you're inclined to leave a review, we read through all of those and we love the feedback. Till next time, this has been A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar.
Lee 1:13:23
"I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free, and I won't forget the men who died who gave that right to me. And I gladly stand up next to you and defend her still today. Because there ain't no doubt I love this land. God bless the U.S.A."