In this episode, we interview Jenny Heckman (MS, LPC, NCC) about dealing with anxiety and staying mentally healthy during the pandemic. Jenny is a licensed professional counselor and a former pastor, and we think her insights here are important and timely.
The beer featured in this episode is Strawberry Rhubarb Wild Fruit Ale by New Glarus Brewing Company.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
In this episode, we interview Jenny Heckman (MS, LPC, NCC) about dealing with anxiety and staying mentally healthy during the pandemic. Jenny is a licensed professional counselor and a former pastor, and we think her insights here are important and timely.
The beer featured in this episode is Strawberry Rhubarb Wild Fruit Ale by New Glarus Brewing Company.
=====
Want to support us?
The best way is to subscribe to our Patreon. Annual memberships are available for a 10% discount.
If you'd rather make a one-time donation, you can contribute through our PayPal.
Other important info:
Cheers!
00:00
[Music]
00:14
welcome to a pastor and a philosopher
00:16
walk into a bar
00:17
where we say the things you wish your
00:19
pastor or your philosophy professor had
00:21
said to you about god
00:22
spirituality and the church
00:24
[Music]
00:28
well welcome friends to another episode
00:30
of a pastor and a philosopher walk into
00:32
a bar
00:33
today we are going to be speaking to a
00:35
great friend of mine
00:36
who is a was a pastor i see her still as
00:40
a pastor
00:41
a colleague of mine close friend and a
00:43
professional
00:44
counselor a therapist i think you're
00:46
going to find no matter how
00:48
you've experienced this year with all
00:51
the trauma involved in all the chaos all
00:54
the
00:55
all the things this episode is going to
00:58
hit you
00:59
in some way shape or form at some point
01:02
i guarantee you just listen long enough
01:04
and what jenny brings is going to
01:06
resonate with your story
01:07
so i'm excited about it but first before
01:10
we get to jenny kyle we need to hear
01:12
about what we're drinking today because
01:14
this
01:14
we obviously are in this proverbial bar
01:17
so what are we drinking today kyle
01:19
today i have for you guys a fruited ale
01:23
from new glarus brewing company
01:26
this one is one of a line of fruited
01:28
ales that they do this one is the most
01:30
hyped most sought after
01:32
of their fruited ales this one's
01:33
strawberry rhubarb
01:35
which is a very wisconsin thing i'm from
01:37
kentucky i had no idea what rhubarb was
01:39
before i moved to wisconsin
01:41
but like every wisconsin grandmother
01:44
makes strawberry rhubarb pie i found out
01:46
and it's incredible so somehow new
01:49
glarus has figured out how to bottle
01:51
that flavor
01:51
and that's what we're drinking here new
01:54
glarus interestingly they only
01:55
distribute in wisconsin
01:57
so their beer is widely and easily
01:59
available
02:00
everywhere in wisconsin but nowhere
02:02
outside of wisconsin so everybody that
02:04
comes to visit
02:05
wants this so they make spotted cow if
02:07
you're familiar with that
02:08
everybody outside of wisconsin loves
02:09
spotted cow uh but this is my favorite
02:11
new glarus brew
02:14
another reason to come to visit
02:15
wisconsin yeah it's like it's the color
02:17
of cranberry juice i think it's a close
02:18
it's a deep red
02:19
yep you almost have to hold it to the
02:21
light to see through it so kyle in my
02:23
limited co-drinking experience with you
02:25
it seems you have a propensity to fruity
02:28
beers is that definitely is that true or
02:30
is this just coincidence
02:31
that's definitely true especially in the
02:32
summer time so we're launching this
02:34
podcast in the summer time and that's
02:35
why we're drinking all this heavily
02:37
fruited stuff
02:37
when it gets colder we're going to see a
02:39
lot more traditional ales and stouts and
02:42
stuff like that
02:45
all right well cheers
02:48
wow that's good the strawberry
02:50
definitely hits first
02:51
strawberry it's a strawberry rhubarb
02:54
for me it's like it's got that bright
02:57
effervescence which i really like
02:59
um it's got the tartness right away but
03:02
on the back of my tongue
03:03
i get this am i crazy or do i get this
03:06
barney
03:07
almost like not barney the the purple
03:10
dinosaur but
03:11
barn-like flavors and then almost
03:14
almost like stinky cheese on the back of
03:16
my tongue
03:18
it's probably the rhubarb isn't it it's
03:19
kind of get that pungent uh
03:21
bitter flavor is it not that yeah i
03:23
think bitter is right yep
03:25
yeah it's it balances really well
03:28
yeah it's like a you're eating fruit in
03:31
a barn
03:32
that has hay and some funk in it
03:38
losing my appetite
03:39
[Laughter]
03:41
you're basically describing their their
03:43
brewery setting
03:44
like if you go visit them that that's
03:46
what you're gonna see
03:48
the nearest thing is a barn in the field
03:50
adjacent to their brewery
03:52
this tastes like new glarus awesome
03:54
amazing so you said this is
03:55
sought after this i'm assuming like is
03:57
only released once a year
03:59
once maybe twice a year i think
04:01
something like that
04:02
but you could they don't announce it
04:04
maybe on their instagram they might put
04:05
up a post as it's coming out so you have
04:07
to look for it and then know where to
04:09
find it and
04:10
kind of get a little bit lucky thank you
04:13
for sharing yeah thanks for bringing
04:14
strawberry rhubarb i highly recommend it
04:16
cheers
04:21
so our guest today is jenny heckman
04:24
uh jenny used to be a pastor at brew
04:27
city church
04:28
alongside randy and i uh so she was my
04:30
pastor for several years
04:32
uh and now she is in full-time uh
04:35
therapy or therapist
04:36
what's the official title there what you
04:38
got a lot of letters behind your name so
04:40
how do you describe yourself the
04:43
official title is a licensed
04:44
professional counselor
04:46
okay so do psychotherapy with
04:48
individuals families
04:49
couples great and we wanted to have
04:53
jenny on the podcast mostly because
04:56
we're in this really weird time with
04:57
covet 19
04:58
and a bunch of other stuff going on in
05:00
our country and there's a great deal of
05:02
anxiety
05:03
and sometimes that anxiety board is on
05:05
outright panic
05:07
and jenny is especially suited to help
05:09
us figure out how to deal with that sort
05:11
of thing so we're really excited to have
05:12
jenny on the podcast today
05:14
jenny we like to ask our guests uh what
05:16
they're drinking
05:17
uh since that's part of the theme of our
05:19
podcast so so what are you drinking
05:22
i am drinking a lovely chilled pinot
05:25
grigio
05:26
very nice chill to uh called josh
05:30
i don't i couldn't tell you the
05:31
temperature i just know that it's nice
05:33
and chill
05:34
my wife and i were uh members of a wine
05:37
club for a while
05:38
so we got kind of nerdy about it and
05:40
they say it should be around 50 degrees
05:42
or so but i don't know if that's real
05:45
of course
05:49
so jenny hello good to see you good to
05:52
see you on the computer screen that is
05:53
in this covet time um
05:57
you can something you can feel in our
05:59
world that's been happening in our
06:00
nation
06:01
more and more and more just growing upon
06:03
itself exponentially is this
06:05
polarization the divide in our country
06:08
ideologically
06:10
racially gender i mean you just you name
06:13
it
06:13
and there's people it feels like people
06:16
in our world are spinning apart
06:18
further and further almost like a
06:20
physics experiment
06:22
and this covid pandemic
06:25
seems to have accentuated that and
06:28
really even you know in a moment where
06:29
maybe we could even
06:31
see our our culture our society come
06:33
together a little bit more
06:35
we found it i found it just spinning
06:37
even more out of control and being even
06:38
more polarized being even more separated
06:41
isolated bitter you name it
06:45
as someone who's your job is to notice
06:48
human behavior and to assess human
06:51
behavior and patterns in human behavior
06:53
now that's on an individual basis more
06:56
group basis but
06:57
as a collective i'm sure you know just
06:59
because of who you are i know that you
07:01
you observe cultural movements and
07:04
societal norms
07:05
and how they're stretching and all that
07:07
stuff so what would you say from your
07:08
professional perspective what have what
07:10
have been some observations
07:12
about what this pandemic is doing to our
07:16
culture and society as a whole
07:19
i've told people from the beginning of
07:21
this and i would definitely still
07:23
say this is congruent with where i'm at
07:26
that
07:27
i still personally am learning a
07:29
tremendous amount
07:31
um so i can i can give you some
07:34
observations but
07:35
really want to make it clear that these
07:37
aren't any forgot
07:38
gone conclusions and you know holding
07:41
loosely to
07:42
hypotheses that i have about about this
07:46
but as i was really reflecting on on
07:48
this question
07:49
the one thing that has become apparent
07:52
to me from the beginning
07:54
is that this pandemic has either
07:58
been an invitation for people to be on
08:00
an accelerated
08:02
course of transformation and it's been
08:05
absolutely beautiful to watch i've seen
08:08
clients and families and couples get
08:11
things figured out
08:12
and reconciled in in very
08:15
salient and quite quick
08:19
and profound ways almost like it's had
08:22
people
08:23
have to evaluate quickly what's what's
08:26
most important
08:27
and how are we going to make this work
08:29
so that's a trend
08:30
that i've seen from from the beginning
08:33
on the opposite end of the continuum
08:36
i've also seen that this pandemic
08:40
has given people
08:44
the opportunity to choose a very very
08:47
different path
08:48
dehumanizing dehumanizing in the way
08:51
they're treating their bodies
08:53
during this time dehumanizing in the way
08:56
they are
08:57
treating family members their spouses
09:00
and the way that they are interacting
09:02
and treating
09:03
their friends extended family members
09:07
community members
09:08
and and even as they're starting to
09:11
develop not starting to but really
09:13
reinforce narratives that they've held
09:15
for a long time
09:17
about the other whether it's the other
09:19
political party
09:21
race so what's been really interesting
09:23
to me
09:24
is because normally i always like to see
09:27
see a middle ground
09:28
but i have definitely seen it people are
09:31
falling into two different
09:33
areas and that's either an accelerated
09:37
growth course of transformation or
09:40
a very rapid decline towards more
09:44
dehumanization
09:48
now when you as you observe this
09:50
dehumanization that's
09:52
i wasn't expecting that super
09:54
interesting but it makes a lot of sense
09:55
as you talk your way through it
09:57
why do you think this pandemic in
09:58
particular is kind of the root for that
10:01
dehumanization what
10:03
have you have you connected those dots
10:04
or is that still something you're
10:05
there's some dots that are there's some
10:07
dots that are being connected and i also
10:09
really want to give credit where credit
10:11
is due i have
10:13
some wonderful mentors and guides of my
10:16
own
10:17
that i i reflect on these things as well
10:20
and so much of this what i'm going to
10:22
say comes out of some dialogue there
10:24
but this is definitely something i've
10:25
been reflecting a lot and in particular
10:28
as it relates to those of us who live
10:32
in the united states and one of the
10:35
conclusions that i've come to
10:37
is that i think part of the reason in
10:39
particular for some of the just
10:41
bad behavior and dehumanizing
10:44
behavior that that we're seeing that i'm
10:46
seeing
10:48
is that as americans we have an
10:50
extremely
10:52
dysfunctional belief about rights and
10:54
and freedom
10:56
that there are what i'm seeing is that
10:58
we're the people who are struggling the
10:59
most
11:00
cope are people who believe that we
11:02
should have unlimited rights
11:05
unlimited freedoms and of course you
11:07
know as as people who are christian in
11:09
orientation we know by design
11:12
that freedom has limits because
11:13
unlimited freedom unlimited rights
11:16
do not lead to human flourishing but
11:19
that
11:19
that so far is one of the dots that i'm
11:22
connecting in particular in the united
11:23
states
11:24
that this has very much challenged the
11:27
paradigm
11:28
many americans have about an entitlement
11:31
to unlimited freedom
11:33
unlimited rights wow
11:36
so it's interesting that when you
11:40
you framed it as the people that are
11:42
having the hardest time
11:43
coping are the people who view it that
11:46
way so it's
11:47
uh it's not just that they have an
11:48
opinion that we disagree with it's
11:50
actually having psychological effects
11:51
that are making their lives
11:53
worse from their perspective is that
11:55
right
11:56
yes and i a colleague of mine asked me
11:59
the other day
12:01
um and we'll probably get to this a
12:02
little bit later but
12:04
the the types of issues that i'm
12:08
seeing coming my way and dealing with
12:10
and i'm sure that i'm
12:11
that other therapist would would share
12:13
the same the same thing
12:15
they're quite different and so for
12:17
people who have
12:19
a really rigid paradigm about
12:22
anything could be a rigid paradigm about
12:25
rights
12:26
about freedom rigid paradigms about
12:29
how things ought to be how god should
12:31
work
12:32
what should go my way their paradigms
12:35
are way too constricted
12:37
to be able to contain reality and
12:40
whenever our paradigms are too small and
12:43
constricted to
12:44
to be able to deal with and whole
12:46
reality
12:48
we will not function well can you relate
12:51
that jenny
12:52
to instantly i go to
12:55
religion in christianity and faith
12:57
journeys and that just sounds
12:58
so familiar and again i'm so glad to
13:02
have your perspective the perspective of
13:03
someone who studied digs down
13:05
deep into this human psyche and brain
13:07
and emotions and all that stuff
13:09
this this idea of someone being
13:13
having such a rigid world view in
13:15
theology and concept of
13:17
who and what god is that sounds like
13:20
you're saying that's
13:20
just fodder for a forest fire in your
13:23
faith journey
13:24
well you're in your faith journey and in
13:26
your psychological journey too
13:27
okay can you explain that yeah
13:31
and you know i'm going to say some
13:32
things that would are going to be
13:34
they might be shocking to some people
13:36
and and i don't mean any
13:38
any disrespect to fellow brothers and
13:40
sisters in christ
13:41
i i also believe that there are some
13:44
things that we just can't stay silent on
13:46
so i'm going to give
13:47
some specific examples that certainly
13:48
won't reach any type of confidentiality
13:51
because i'm hearing them so often
13:53
but for instance one very rigid paradigm
13:56
i'm hearing
13:57
in my clients who embrace a a more
14:00
conservative christian
14:02
paradigm and viewpoint is well
14:05
why do we need to follow the cdc's
14:08
recommendation
14:09
if every single one of our days are
14:12
numbered
14:13
it doesn't matter if we're gonna die
14:15
we're gonna die
14:17
if my fellow my neighbor down the street
14:20
if his days are numbered what does it
14:23
matter
14:24
well that that would be that would be an
14:26
example of that
14:28
um another one another one that i'm
14:31
hearing
14:32
would be about the interpretation that
14:35
god is punishing god is punishing
14:39
us for a specific sin or citizens and
14:42
don't get me wrong i think there's
14:43
there's some amazing transformation that
14:46
we all need in this but that's so
14:48
very different than keeping it in this
14:50
tight paradigm
14:52
that correlates god is doing a because
14:55
of
14:56
b though i mean those would be those
14:59
would be the two big ones and i'm sure i
15:00
could come up with many more
15:02
but the the i think the big thing
15:04
overall is that somehow
15:06
this is so horrible we don't deserve
15:09
this
15:09
this is hindering my freedom messing up
15:11
with my life
15:12
and somehow we gotta hustle and scramble
15:15
our way out of this
15:17
so that's another really narrow paradigm
15:19
that just does not leave
15:20
room for things that go awry
15:23
yeah yeah my 11 year old boy yesterday
15:27
just made the statement that maybe maybe
15:29
coven 19 is happening because
15:30
of racism and god's punishing us
15:33
right well i i like what you're thinking
15:36
because if god's going to punish us for
15:37
anything it'd be something like racism
15:39
but let's talk about how god works so
15:40
maybe that's that's kind of an 11 year
15:42
old
15:43
theological worldview
15:46
now i said the offensive thing so you
15:48
can i'll take the feed off of you jenny
15:51
so i'm curious before we leave this
15:53
topic what sorts of
15:55
uh specific psychological harms do you
15:57
see
15:58
associated with that kind of rigid
16:00
belief structure whether it's religious
16:02
or not
16:05
oh that's such a good question what i
16:08
think where the psychological harm is
16:11
it's it's often i mean and don't get me
16:12
wrong the person who holds the paradigm
16:15
most the time him or herself that they
16:18
are suffering internally
16:20
because it's hard not to be able to deal
16:22
with reality
16:23
unless you live in a tight paradigm but
16:26
what i'm seeing more and more is that
16:28
they're becoming
16:29
extremely lonely people because nobody
16:32
wants to be around them
16:33
people are losing trust people are
16:35
losing respect
16:37
they're in conflict with their kids
16:40
with their spouses with family members
16:42
with members in the community
16:44
and so there's now going to be this this
16:47
loneliness
16:48
as well but but in particular
16:51
when it comes to the paradigm of we
16:53
should never suffer
16:55
or god should be protecting us from
16:57
these types of things
16:58
what i'm really seeing is people one
17:00
client said it best
17:01
she said my ability to function
17:05
has come to a grinding halt
17:08
my ability to function has come to a
17:11
grinding
17:12
halt when our paradigms are that narrow
17:15
we will not be able to flex and adapt
17:20
and adjust to loss wow
17:23
yep i wonder how many people are
17:26
identifying with that statement that
17:27
your
17:28
one of your clients just said right now
17:31
so
17:32
jenny when we think about anxiety
17:34
anxiety which leads to
17:36
is there on this on the continuum of you
17:40
know as you're you're assessing
17:41
um and diagnosing anxiety and then kyle
17:44
mentioned panic
17:45
in the you know in the beginning of our
17:46
time together how how closely are those
17:49
related is there
17:50
stops along the way that or does panic
17:52
feed into
17:53
anxiety the other way around how do
17:55
those two things have a relationship
17:56
with one another
17:57
psychologically um well they're mainly i
17:59
mean both of those concepts there's
18:02
the the panic is more physiological
18:05
anxiety is a combination of both but
18:08
there there actually is a distinction
18:10
between anxiety and between panic
18:12
anxiety runs along a long continuum
18:15
panic does not run along a continuum at
18:17
all panic is panic
18:18
it is felt intensely it distorts reality
18:21
it sets people up to make bad decisions
18:25
because it's based on distortions where
18:28
anxiety on the continuum
18:30
there's a level of anxiety that we all
18:32
need to function
18:33
there are higher levels of anxiety that
18:35
will keep us
18:36
physically depleted mentally depleted
18:39
and a lot of physical symptoms
18:40
as well but that's not the same thing as
18:43
as panic
18:45
and how have you seen that in your
18:47
practice in the last three four months
18:49
during the
18:49
pandemic have you seen that kind of
18:52
grow i would assume right yeah well it's
18:55
interesting
18:56
randy because actually i i've been
18:58
reflecting on this a lot what's
18:59
when in some ways in interesting and
19:02
sort of
19:02
humorous is that my clients who
19:07
already came into this pandemic with
19:09
diagnoses like
19:11
ocd generalized anxiety panic disorder
19:14
they have fared very well
19:18
and part of it is because they feel so
19:21
normal
19:22
everybody's anxious um for my clients
19:25
who have ocd they are so thrilled that
19:27
people are washing their hands
19:29
um i mean truly i mean it's been i
19:32
i really would have expected something
19:34
very different
19:35
so but what i am seeing is actually a
19:38
different
19:39
kind of anxiety and we wouldn't
19:42
necessarily term it anxiety and if you
19:44
if i if you don't mind me just taking
19:45
it's not going to be a sermon i promise
19:47
you that but
19:48
there's there's three things there's
19:51
really three
19:52
things that have anxiety as
19:56
features but they're quite distinct and
19:58
they're quite unique
20:00
to the pandemic and and situations like
20:03
this
20:04
one is something that dr pauline boss
20:07
boss
20:08
has identified as ambiguous loss
20:12
and that is the trauma of loss without
20:15
resolution
20:16
and that's exactly what every single one
20:18
of us is is facing right now
20:21
there's loss but there is no resolution
20:24
we we don't have a sense yet of where
20:27
all this is going and what it's going to
20:29
look like
20:30
and um and even by way of like some
20:32
small simple examples
20:34
you know the other day i drove past
20:36
miller park
20:37
and there was just this pain in my gut
20:39
of like man do i ever miss hanging out
20:41
with my husband at brewer games
20:43
and do i ever feel bad for my kids
20:46
that they don't get to experience that i
20:48
mean and i know this is like first world
20:50
problems
20:50
but the reality is there are so many
20:53
losses within the big loss
20:55
but there is not yet any resolution and
20:58
that
20:59
for people what the research is finding
21:02
is that ambiguous
21:03
loss without the definition is the the
21:06
thing that's impacting people the most
21:08
so it feels like anxiety
21:10
but it's a little bit different the
21:13
second thing
21:14
that has come out in the research so far
21:17
about the pandemic
21:18
is a term that we call immobilization
21:21
and that's the sense that we're really
21:24
limited
21:25
and constricted right now which which we
21:27
are not completely
21:28
but much more than what we're used to
21:30
we're without power
21:32
to change many things and people have
21:35
the feeling of
21:36
of being trapped and typically speaking
21:39
and i think the jury's still out whether
21:41
or not this would fall right now into a
21:43
category of trauma or pre-trauma but
21:46
it doesn't matter people are
21:48
experiencing the anxiety around
21:51
immobilization
21:52
how do i live and move and find meaning
21:55
and purpose and outlets
21:57
in a very constricted limited
22:00
environment and then certainly people
22:02
who've been impacted financially as well
22:04
where there isn't an end in sight that
22:06
would be another way
22:08
that plays out and then i'd say the
22:10
final
22:11
way as well how anxiety looks different
22:14
is just the
22:14
constant adaptation to changing
22:18
conditions you know you guys have
22:19
probably heard
22:20
i think people are so sick of the word
22:22
unprecedented
22:23
um but i think also we've heard the word
22:26
pivoting a lot
22:27
but we're pivoting because we have to
22:30
things are
22:31
changing with this virus almost every 24
22:34
hours now
22:35
what we thought we knew about this virus
22:38
at the beginning
22:40
are different and i think even six
22:42
months down the road but things are
22:44
constantly adapting and changing and it
22:47
human beings aren't
22:48
wired to have to flex and adapt and
22:51
pivot
22:52
that rapidly for this long of a time
22:54
we'll all
22:55
do it and we'll all make it through but
22:57
it always comes at a cost
22:59
and i'm feeling that too wow so it's
23:01
just a different type of anxiety
23:03
how are you feeling that jenny well i
23:05
mean number one
23:06
when this thing started first of all
23:09
having to make decisions about how long
23:11
do you stay in person
23:12
and then adapting to tele-behavioral
23:15
health
23:16
which wasn't in and of itself difficult
23:19
but then what was difficult is
23:21
navigating all the different platforms
23:23
figuring out what's hipaa compliant
23:25
dealing with tech
23:26
issues every client and then sitting in
23:29
front of a screen where i also had to
23:30
see myself
23:32
and the client you know for seven eight
23:35
hours a day
23:35
five days a week and then having to
23:37
pivot back
23:39
when it was time to start seeing
23:41
critical patients and then pivoting
23:42
again
23:43
when therapists were required to have
23:45
informed consents and
23:46
you know liability issues and and all
23:48
those kinds of things
23:50
and now most likely gonna have to pivot
23:52
again
23:53
as the numbers grow as we head back into
23:55
flu season i mean that's just a little
23:57
snippet
23:58
and that's just on the professional end
23:59
on the personal end with family with
24:01
kids
24:02
all that kind of thing you know it's
24:04
that's there too
24:05
i'm sure you guys have all experienced
24:07
that as well
24:09
yeah yeah some of the most intense for
24:12
me
24:12
is the difference in opinion about the
24:15
pandemic
24:16
about the importance of it about the
24:18
seriousness of it about the reality
24:20
about masks about you know
24:22
all that stuff that's it's almost
24:26
it's like experiencing whiplash on a
24:28
daily basis
24:29
trying to hold and process so many
24:31
people's opinions
24:32
and you know both as a pastor than as a
24:35
family member
24:36
and i mean uncles aunts sisters
24:39
brothers-in-law you know all that stuff
24:41
it's a lot of holding oh man yeah
24:44
yeah so jenny you mentioned trauma a few
24:47
minutes ago
24:48
do you think that covid itself will
24:52
cause an uptick in cases of ptsd or is
24:55
that a different kind of trauma
24:58
that's a good question it's going to be
25:01
dependent on the individual
25:04
as a lot of ptsd is and by the way just
25:06
just to make it really clear
25:08
when when a person comes out of
25:10
something like this with post-traumatic
25:12
stress
25:14
symptoms or disorder that doesn't mean
25:16
that they're weaker
25:17
in character or even you know more
25:19
fragile
25:20
it all depends it all depends on what
25:23
their circumstances were
25:24
going into that and this in the specific
25:27
impact
25:28
as a result of it so i think people are
25:30
all going to be
25:31
impacted but not everyone is going to
25:34
come come out of this
25:35
with like post-traumatic stress symptoms
25:38
or a disorder
25:40
people have a lot of reflecting to do
25:43
people will
25:44
hopefully be reordering their lives i
25:45
think other people are gonna
25:47
you know become very very rigid
25:50
and um tightly controlled everyone will
25:54
be impacted but not everyone will be
25:55
traumatized
25:57
yep i wonder you know because ptsd is a
26:01
that's that's a real in a strong thing
26:04
but i'm remembering from my journey
26:06
you guys all know but for listeners i
26:09
don't know
26:09
five six years ago i had a what's called
26:11
a traumatic brain injury
26:12
and was on vacation with my wife in
26:15
california and
26:16
all of a sudden felt like my head was
26:18
gonna explode and long story short i had
26:20
a subdural hematoma with a midline shift
26:22
which just meant my brain was bleeding
26:24
and it shoved my brain over there was
26:25
enough blood that it moved my brain so
26:27
eventually after two weeks i had
26:29
a couple holes drilled in my head had
26:30
brain surgery was in california three
26:32
weeks longer than i thought i would
26:34
and then came home and had a month
26:35
recovery and everybody would ask me
26:38
after that first six months to a year
26:40
how are you doing how's your health and
26:42
it was always fine it got
26:44
it got better after surgery i just felt
26:46
like a real person again
26:47
it was great but what wasn't fine was
26:51
processing the trauma i didn't know it
26:53
at the time until i talked to you and to
26:54
other friends who
26:56
who are professionals and i remember you
26:57
saying jenny but
26:59
i would i came to you and i was like
27:00
this is what i'm doing every night after
27:02
my family goes to bed
27:03
i will take a journey back to southern
27:05
california and i'll go
27:07
to see the places that we went to and
27:09
i'll go and i'll look at my texts
27:12
throughout that whole time i'll go on
27:13
sarah's phone and i'll look at my wife's
27:14
text during that time i'll look at our
27:16
27:17
feeds and watch how everybody was
27:19
frantic and praying and
27:20
i just had to relive it over and over
27:22
and over again for six to 12 months
27:24
really
27:25
and i remember you saying you're having
27:27
to fit that into your story now and me
27:29
and sarah together had to do that
27:31
we would relive it over and over again i
27:33
wonder
27:35
two things one could you talk about that
27:36
reality a little bit because i
27:38
i'm guessing that there's a lot of
27:40
people who are listening who maybe are
27:41
health care workers
27:42
and are going to have to do that thing
27:45
or
27:45
who had coveted 19 and their world was
27:48
was disrupted for months on end and
27:51
they're still feeling the effects of it
27:52
in that processing and bringing that
27:55
trauma
27:56
into their person can you just talk us
27:58
to us about that process jenny
28:00
yes the thing the thing about trauma
28:03
is that it and i i heard a lecture i
28:06
cannot remember his name it was a
28:07
marquette
28:08
oh boy maybe nine years ago and
28:12
what he said is that these trauma it
28:14
dislocates people
28:16
at almost level every level of their
28:18
personhood
28:20
how they view self how they view the
28:21
other how they view the safety of the
28:23
world how they view their competency
28:25
you name it i could go on and on so yeah
28:28
the process is people have to be able
28:30
they have to be able to tell the story
28:33
and go back and visit different pieces
28:35
of it make sense of it but
28:36
but then ultimately integrate it into
28:38
their story that this
28:40
actually happened to me i think the
28:42
thing that really messes with
28:44
people is that wow
28:48
this happened to me this is
28:51
happening to me this is happening
28:54
to us um this is not somewhere off in
28:58
another continent
28:59
that's what people i think i think we've
29:02
definitely adjusted for the most part
29:04
that this is happening to us
29:06
we'll have some more adjustment to make
29:08
but yeah being able to wrap our heads
29:10
around
29:11
this happened here's how it impacted me
29:14
and here's how we made it through what
29:17
was provided to us
29:19
those are all necessary things to get
29:22
the trauma
29:23
resolved in addition that immobilization
29:25
that term i mentioned earlier
29:27
is part and parcel of trauma or
29:30
pre-traumatic things
29:31
and so one of the things we also know is
29:33
that wherever we can empower people
29:35
to become mobile again in their emotions
29:39
moving their bodies being able to
29:41
connect in relationships even in this
29:43
obviously in a socially distanced way
29:46
all those things to empower people
29:48
is is equally important as well
29:52
well this episode i think is gonna drive
29:55
your your waiting list might grow jenny
29:58
and a lot of people are gonna
29:59
realize i need some i need some
30:01
counseling well i want to tell you we
30:03
are
30:03
really grateful i'm we're really blessed
30:05
there are so many
30:06
good good therapists yeah lots of good
30:10
people
30:11
yeah so
30:14
jenny i'm curious what you think about
30:16
this um
30:18
it seems like and maybe this is a
30:20
difference in the way that the normal
30:22
populace uses the word anxiety versus
30:24
the way that therapists like yourself
30:25
use the
30:26
word anxiety but i i got into kind of a
30:29
little
30:30
mini argument slash conversation with
30:32
somebody on social media at the
30:33
beginning of all of this and
30:35
i was suggesting that that there's a
30:38
sense of appropriate anxiety
30:40
um i i see a lot on social media the
30:43
sort of thing you were describing a
30:44
little while ago where
30:46
there are people who just aren't anxious
30:48
enough about this
30:49
or at least that's the way that i would
30:50
describe it they don't take it seriously
30:53
enough they don't think it's much of a
30:54
threat
30:55
or they write it off because of some
30:57
kind of belief structure that explains
30:58
it away for them
31:00
so is there a sense of healthy anxiety
31:04
is that a thing
31:05
or would would a therapist describe that
31:07
differently
31:08
oh without a doubt i i don't know that i
31:11
would use
31:12
i don't know that i would use the word
31:14
anxiety i think i would use
31:15
fear and what we know is that we do need
31:19
to have
31:20
we need to have what i would call
31:22
accurate fear
31:24
fear that is actually congruent with the
31:26
reality of a situation
31:28
or we will get ourselves into danger
31:32
and other people into danger so there is
31:34
a healthy sense of fear
31:37
yeah and and anxiety and i i'd say more
31:40
if we want to use that i i use a phrase
31:43
a lot kind of a sober
31:45
awareness that this is a real deal
31:49
a sober awareness that allows me to
31:52
allows us to be able to not just protect
31:56
self but really also protect the other
32:00
we need that now i think what's getting
32:03
really tricky for people
32:05
one of the reasons i'm finding people
32:07
are not paying attention to the science
32:10
okay i mean there's just some really
32:12
good science out
32:13
about covid the good science that i've
32:16
read
32:17
is not fear-based it is a factual but
32:20
sober awareness here's what we know
32:22
right now
32:24
about this virus and if we do these
32:26
things
32:28
we can mitigate the effects of this
32:30
virus
32:31
what i'm finding is becoming very
32:34
confusing for people
32:36
is that and i i want to be careful here
32:38
i will not villainize the media and i am
32:40
not
32:40
villainizing any one politician but
32:43
because
32:44
kovid is politicized
32:47
the media and politics use fear
32:50
run amok to manipulate people
32:55
and so people are having a very
32:57
difficult time often discerning
33:00
what is sober awareness based on
33:03
good science and what's real and true
33:06
and what is fear run amok used to
33:09
manipulate
33:10
and for someone else's game
33:14
and so i'm finding that some people have
33:16
completely tuned out science
33:19
because they they believe this is all a
33:21
political
33:23
maneuver yep so jenny
33:26
going off of that idea of sober
33:28
awareness and then
33:30
on the other side fear run amok i've
33:32
heard it said
33:33
and i'm just interested in to hear your
33:34
perspective i've heard that
33:36
negativity fear anger all that stuff
33:40
sticks to our to our consciousness to
33:42
our brains like
33:43
like velcro right in that good beautiful
33:47
hopeful wonderful things slide off like
33:50
teflon that like
33:51
you actually have to work to actually
33:53
amplify and keep those good
33:54
thoughts and things i was just talking
33:56
to my son this today we were
33:59
in the park and he talks he mentioned
34:01
that he remembers so many of his bad
34:03
dreams
34:04
and very few of his good dreams and i
34:06
was one
34:07
i was processing him with him that that
34:09
yep the bad stuff actually sticks a
34:11
little bit more is that true
34:13
physiologically or talk me through that
34:16
yeah it does seem that
34:18
the brain appears to
34:21
recall the bad and what didn't go well
34:26
more than the good now i think there's
34:28
some people by personality and wiring
34:30
that they are just gifted
34:32
in really being able to connect with the
34:34
good so we
34:36
being intentional about connecting with
34:37
still what's good
34:39
and untouched by bad is
34:42
is very very important i'm also though
34:45
honestly i'm
34:46
i myself in my own journey in this last
34:49
year have really had to renegotiate
34:52
my relationship with anger and i have so
34:55
appreciated
34:56
richard rohr's writing on anger
35:00
that that anger is actually if if we
35:03
bring it
35:03
into the presence of the gaze of christ
35:07
that it is actually a pathway
35:11
to something that is actually very pure
35:15
and
35:15
good anger is one of the most purifying
35:18
emotions
35:19
there are sometimes i think when we get
35:21
concerned about anger and i do as well
35:23
what we're really saying is we're more
35:25
concerned about contempt
35:28
and that's very different than anger um
35:30
anger tends to be quite pure
35:32
and purifying contempt is something very
35:35
very different
35:36
that tends to look down on other people
35:39
minimizes other people
35:40
demeans other people but anger actually
35:43
is a necessary
35:44
emotion for coping and
35:48
also for creating change
35:51
to go back to your original question the
35:52
reality is yes we do
35:54
have to be a little more intentional
35:56
about immersing ourself
35:58
in the good not just thinking about it
36:01
but tasting it touching it seeing it
36:04
being
36:04
in it you said earlier connecting with
36:07
the good
36:08
yeah i like that yeah yeah this seems
36:11
super relevant
36:12
to me because simultaneously with the
36:13
whole covid thing and all of the
36:15
psychological stuff that's causing
36:17
in the united states and kind of
36:18
globally we're going through
36:20
this intense anger rage
36:24
over white supremacy and racism and the
36:26
fact that
36:28
um police officers can't seem to stop
36:31
killing black people
36:32
um so i think it's highly relevant to
36:34
the situation we're in because
36:36
we're having all these issues compounded
36:37
simultaneously and all these different
36:39
emotions flowing through us about
36:40
different things
36:41
there's actually there's a whole
36:42
literature of philosophy of race
36:46
and various critical race theorists who
36:48
talk a great deal about rage
36:51
and anger as a necessary tool for
36:54
political change
36:57
i've as you as you talk kyle i've got um
37:00
well
37:01
i'd be interested in your take on this
37:02
jenny i um
37:05
watching let's just take the george
37:07
floyd video for example
37:09
right you could put a million names in
37:11
there but let's just take the george
37:12
floyd video
37:14
people's response to that video has been
37:17
fascinating to me
37:18
um and fascinating i mean i don't mean
37:21
here's what i mean it seems like adults
37:24
are more
37:25
the way they see that is through the
37:27
filter of whatever their political
37:28
ideology is whatever their upbringing
37:30
was whatever you know feeling like
37:31
there's so much
37:32
of a filter when they're watching it
37:34
that i almost don't trust
37:36
it what i trusted was watching my 13
37:39
year old girl
37:40
be disrupted for two days after she we
37:42
allowed her to watch that video
37:44
and she couldn't stop she was crying on
37:46
and off for about a day and a half after
37:47
she watched the video in
37:49
the the evil the pure evil in it
37:52
was so jarring to her she didn't have
37:54
any of these filters she didn't have any
37:56
ideology stuffed
37:57
upon her she just watched a video where
37:59
she saw somebody being murdered
38:01
and it was just a really easy call for
38:03
her can you speak to this
38:05
these filters that that distort reality
38:08
as we're seeing real things happen in
38:10
real time yeah
38:12
it goes right back to what i said about
38:14
about the meaning and purpose
38:16
of narrow paradigms if
38:19
if i if i can look at that video
38:22
and interpret it through a lens
38:26
of my political beliefs then
38:30
i don't have to grapple with the problem
38:33
of evil
38:36
don't have to get near to the trauma i
38:39
can protect myself
38:40
from being disrupted
38:45
so it's there's a self-protection facet
38:48
to it
38:49
very much and i'll tell you i will never
38:51
enable
38:52
dehumanizing behavior but i have come to
38:56
the conclusion
38:57
that most dehumanizing behavior
39:01
started very how can i put this it
39:04
started
39:05
with a need to self-protect
39:09
and it doesn't make it any better does
39:12
i'm not saying it's good
39:14
but with compassion i will say that that
39:17
there's a path
39:18
to dehumanizing behavior that often
39:21
starts with somebody
39:23
who internally is absolutely unable
39:26
to have a roomy enough interior world
39:29
to handle the whole of reality and so we
39:32
amputate it
39:34
yep wow man so jenny
39:38
2020 i mean it's gonna go down in the
39:41
history books
39:43
pretend that me kyle elliott and all our
39:46
listeners are sitting on your couch your
39:47
proverbial couch
39:49
and you're gonna tell us how to get
39:51
through a year like 2020 which
39:53
obviously is going to have more chaos to
39:54
it even if we don't have anything new
39:56
introduced which i'm
39:57
be shocked if that didn't happen but can
39:59
you give us a little
40:00
little therapy session on how to how to
40:03
walk through
40:04
a year a time a season of life like this
40:06
that seems so chaotic and out of control
40:09
how do we hold all that how do we how do
40:11
we deal with it
40:12
yeah well i um you know before
40:15
i was reminded of this last week too
40:17
that before
40:18
psychology and in particular the
40:20
practice of counseling was ever a
40:22
concept ever a thing
40:25
there was something else that human
40:26
beings have always had available to them
40:29
and i'm going to use the language of
40:31
spiritual direction and this is where
40:32
i've been personally immersing myself
40:34
in just in my own study
40:38
reflection so bottom line is there's
40:42
only one way we're going to get through
40:43
it
40:44
it really at the core and that is going
40:46
to be
40:47
we're either going to embrace a theology
40:49
of sufficiency
40:51
or we're going to live in a mindset of
40:53
scarcity
40:55
unpack that for us yeah theology of
40:57
sufficiency versus a mindset of scarcity
41:00
i when all this began i felt led to be
41:04
stay almost this entire time in the
41:05
sermon on the mount
41:07
and doing study on it and in particular
41:10
in
41:10
matthew 6 25-34 about why do you worry
41:14
about your life look at the birds of the
41:15
air look at the lilies of the field
41:17
i i really came i came into an
41:19
understanding
41:21
through some helpful commentators where
41:24
the the commentator was basically saying
41:26
jesus was not
41:27
saying like live in denial live with
41:29
your head in the clouds
41:31
jesus was actually in a culture
41:35
that was poor the rich
41:38
ruled there and there wasn't enough
41:42
and and honestly for many of the same
41:44
reasons
41:45
we in our culture are experiencing
41:48
scarcity as well or certain populations
41:51
are experiencing scarcity so when jesus
41:54
was saying look at the birds of the air
41:56
and look at the lilies of the field he's
41:57
really saying
41:59
do not focus your attention
42:02
on the scarcity that's caused by greed
42:07
and anger and dehumanizing behavior
42:10
focus on the provision of the father the
42:12
sufficiency that's there
42:14
in all conditions in all circumstances
42:17
that's where you're going to have your
42:18
that's where you're going to have your
42:20
peace
42:21
okay and then um so i think that
42:25
that is one of the biggest ones the
42:27
other thing as i was watching
42:29
bits and pieces of george floyd's
42:31
funeral
42:33
is the practice and concept of black joy
42:36
i don't know if you saw that but what i
42:39
would say
42:40
if you guys are sitting on my couch the
42:42
way to get through it
42:44
is the jesus way and i would call that
42:46
subversive
42:48
coping where we practice joy
42:52
in the midst of evil and
42:55
we look at and trust sufficiency
42:58
and we're very careful about staying too
43:01
attuned
43:02
to the crazy messages about scarcity and
43:05
about toilet paper about cleaning
43:07
supplies
43:07
i could go on and on and on okay but we
43:10
live in what what we're designed to live
43:12
in
43:13
and that is in joy and in the trusting
43:16
and
43:16
insufficiency of of god
43:20
and that may sound very overly
43:22
simplistic but i would say that is
43:24
really at the core
43:26
of easing that anxiety
43:29
the panic that we know this does not
43:32
have the final say and we really
43:34
shouldn't be surprised this is the
43:36
groaning of creation
43:38
and i'm not minimizing what is going on
43:40
and i'm not saying we should put our
43:42
head in the sand
43:43
however if we don't immerse ourself in
43:46
what is still good
43:48
and still available as good always has
43:51
been always will be
43:52
we will not come through this well
43:55
yep that's so good jenny subversive
43:59
coping that's my new term
44:00
i love it sounds like a book title
44:02
coping it's sure how about that
44:04
if you write a book with that title i'm
44:06
thinking you
44:10
subversive coping it's good that's the
44:12
only this really that's as far as i
44:14
could ever get by the way
44:15
with the book is the title
44:19
um so i'm curious if
44:22
because you're a pastor or used to be a
44:24
pastor in addition to being
44:26
a therapist and you were just sort of
44:28
leaning into a little bit of that just
44:29
now
44:30
um so do you think as a christian and as
44:33
a former pastor
44:35
is there any special advice for how
44:38
christians specifically
44:40
might be able to do good in the world
44:43
uh during all of this and also stay
44:46
psychologically healthy while doing it
44:47
some of what you just said kind of uh
44:50
goes into that a little bit
44:51
um but a lot of what you said is kind of
44:54
universal to everybody so
44:55
let me reframe the question here is does
44:58
christianity
44:59
in your view offer anything specific and
45:02
unique or different
45:04
for the believer that you couldn't get
45:07
as a secular person
45:09
yes and i i'd say two things
45:12
one is we we can walk with
45:16
responsibility
45:17
and sober awareness while still
45:21
being free you know because
45:24
we know because of christ and
45:27
his his life his death his resurrection
45:30
and his ascension
45:32
all four of those are important we know
45:34
that
45:35
the reign of christ the kingdom of god
45:37
is is here
45:39
not in all of its fullness and so we
45:41
take seriously then what
45:43
what paul says in in romans that nothing
45:45
can separate us from that reality
45:48
i mean go through that list nothing in
45:51
heaven on earth above or below
45:53
things present past future nothing in us
45:56
outside of us can separate us
45:58
from from that love and from that
46:00
reality that the reign of christ the
46:02
presence of christ the kingdom of christ
46:04
is here
46:04
so that's where we get grounded and
46:06
anchored but then the second thing is
46:09
i think so often i do i have to remind
46:11
myself of this daily
46:13
and be reminded of it is that
46:16
we are little christ's jesus was
46:20
the one true human and we are made
46:23
in the image of god to be the people
46:26
who carry not only the good news but are
46:29
reflective
46:30
that in fact new creation is here we're
46:33
the carriers of hope
46:35
um and so the the hope there is that we
46:38
we live
46:38
out our our our human or our christian
46:42
vocation
46:43
in the midst of impen a pandemic mm-hmm
46:47
yep i love that i uh the way i've been
46:50
the way i've framed that to brief city
46:54
to
46:55
our congregation your former
46:56
congregation jenny has been to say
46:59
this is we are in the birth panes of new
47:01
creation
47:02
that this reality is giving birth to
47:05
another more beautiful full one called
47:07
new creation
47:08
the kingdom of god in all its fullness
47:10
and goodness and
47:12
birthing is painful and it's traumatic
47:15
and it's incredibly difficult in gory
47:19
in in messy and it feels like that's
47:22
what we're in right now
47:24
and that's not to minimize anybody's
47:26
experience during
47:27
this this crazy chaotic time but birth
47:30
pains of new creation helps
47:31
me see it in a bigger way than just this
47:34
particular moment you know
47:38
jenny this is now getting personal
47:40
because i'll just tell you my my
47:41
experience
47:42
with with kovid you know i could tell
47:45
you
47:45
almost day by day that week when this
47:48
hit right
47:49
i was with a group of pastors on
47:50
wednesday and we were all kind of like
47:51
hey is this real why are you guys doing
47:53
anything
47:54
and yeah we're not going to have people
47:55
shake hands you know that was the extent
47:56
of it
47:57
and and i remember one of our elders was
47:59
like no hugging
48:01
get out of my face with that you know it
48:02
was at that point yet that was wednesday
48:04
thursday um the memphis grizzly player
48:09
test rody gobert tested positive for
48:10
kovid and the nba season was shut down
48:13
then the next day friday was you know
48:16
all of us were going crazy i mean it was
48:17
just on a day by day basis and
48:19
i was just as all of us were i was just
48:21
responding in moment by moment
48:23
you know how do we okay we're not going
48:25
to meet it's not only that we're not
48:26
going to shake hands and hug on sunday
48:28
we're not going to meet on sunday
48:29
we're going to do this online and now we
48:30
got to pivot what do we got to do you
48:31
know
48:32
elliot was part of so much of that and i
48:35
would i felt like i was rolling with the
48:36
punches pretty well i felt like i was
48:38
not stressed or anxious about it i felt
48:39
like i was doing
48:40
like just responding well in the moment
48:44
feeling good about it not feeling not
48:46
staying up at night
48:47
but then i've told you about this in the
48:49
past where i've had these what you call
48:50
psychosomatic pains where at different
48:53
points in the last
48:54
three to five years i'll get recurring
48:57
tightness in my chest that freaks me out
48:58
that i'm gonna die soon or
49:00
a pain in a cramp from my chest up to
49:03
the base of my neck
49:04
of to my jaw and that happens numerous
49:07
times a day
49:07
and i don't tell anyone about it because
49:09
i'm freaked out about it i don't know
49:10
what to do with it
49:11
and all of a sudden i'll tell someone
49:12
like you or my spiritual director
49:15
or whoever and it starts going away
49:18
slowly but i had to deal with it for
49:19
months because i didn't tell anybody
49:21
that started happening again to me it
49:23
was gone i went on sabbatical last
49:25
summer and went away
49:26
and all of a sudden late march early
49:29
april this
49:30
pain in my in my chest going up to my
49:33
neck started happening again and i was
49:34
just
49:35
so dang pissed off i was just like i'm
49:38
feeling good i'm handling this well
49:40
why is this happening and i kept dealing
49:42
with it kept dealing with it until i
49:43
told my spiritual director and then
49:45
kind of went away what i want to know
49:48
about that process within me and people
49:50
like me
49:51
why did that happen why does it go away
49:53
when you start talking about it what's
49:54
the deal with that
49:56
it's normal normal and expected there's
49:59
a term that i think will be really
50:01
helpful to you
50:02
and to anybody else experiencing this
50:04
and and i really can empathize with you
50:06
i mean and by the way
50:07
anxiety and stress we experienced it in
50:10
the body
50:12
probably even more so than we experience
50:14
it in our emotions and our psyche it's
50:16
it's both places we're embodied
50:18
creatures but
50:19
anxiety is very physiological but
50:21
there's a term called called
50:23
allostatic load all
50:29
allostatic load which means that
50:32
there's a type of load that is so
50:36
high for so long that the body adapts
50:40
so we always would think oh the body is
50:41
very homeostatic that's the way god made
50:43
it'll get back to normal what a
50:45
wonderful thing but what we know
50:47
is that there are certain types of loads
50:49
over periods of time
50:51
that the body is actually not designed
50:53
to ever adapt to
50:55
because it would be maladaptive and so
50:58
at a certain time the body will start
50:59
sending off signals like tightness of
51:01
chest
51:02
headaches tensions decreased immune
51:06
system you know you name it there's all
51:07
kinds of things aches and pains
51:09
um and that just is our body's way of
51:11
saying i've done this long enough
51:14
and i need to get a little bit of of
51:16
reprieve and so
51:17
the way that i for myself and and for
51:20
the people i work with that i would say
51:23
is we kind of have to make friends with
51:25
that that we
51:26
we can say this is a real gift actually
51:28
that my body
51:30
is giving me these signals and nothing
51:32
to be alarmed here
51:33
there's this is what a body does we know
51:36
from research that if we can
51:37
we can talk to ourself that way that the
51:40
the stress symptoms decrease but
51:43
honestly
51:44
the shame about them is what really is
51:47
messing with people that somehow we
51:50
should be above
51:51
yeah the human experience or that randy
51:54
and i lead pastor of bruce city who's
51:55
leading people and can cope with things
51:57
doesn't get these we're all subject to
52:00
the human experience
52:01
which is why embracing that talking
52:03
about it and then doing things to really
52:06
take care of our body
52:07
get margin is is real important but i'm
52:10
right there with you
52:11
yep i feel like you need to bill me
52:13
after this episode
52:15
all free free for all of you i mean not
52:18
all in the podcast
52:21
yep so jenny that's that's me in my
52:23
process
52:24
um have you has your anxiety levels
52:28
personally
52:29
like what what has been your you know
52:31
now if you were sitting down with
52:33
someone
52:33
and saying this has been my experience
52:36
during this time
52:37
yeah how did you describe that oh boy
52:40
i'm with you like at the beginning
52:42
i i felt like i was handless like a
52:45
trooper
52:46
leading interns through it you know
52:48
family through it
52:49
all that but at the time it felt like
52:52
maybe one long snow day
52:55
but the more this went on and after the
52:58
first safer at home
53:00
expired and we went into another one and
53:03
now we're looking at these numbers that
53:05
we're looking at and
53:07
you know even what just happened in dane
53:09
county today and where we're probably
53:10
going to be headed and all those kinds
53:12
of things
53:13
over time what i started to experience
53:15
it's just it was
53:17
first of all just plain weariness like
53:20
the the feeling like i am having
53:22
trouble making decisions
53:25
even about my schedule like even getting
53:27
myself up
53:28
out of bed and it wasn't depression it
53:30
was just
53:31
weariness and then for me because one of
53:34
my core themes is the
53:35
fear and the shame of not being
53:38
competent
53:39
having to navigate liability issues and
53:43
i've never been a therapist i've made a
53:44
vow i will always operate
53:46
ethically but i don't ever want to be
53:48
driven by the fear of liability
53:51
and right now the fear of liability is a
53:53
big deal
53:55
for many many people and so that i would
53:57
say for me
53:58
has been the thing that i've needed i've
54:00
gotten re-established with my own
54:02
therapist
54:03
spiritual director who's really helped
54:05
me navigate that
54:07
but i think that the fear of doing
54:09
what's best
54:10
and what's good in particular for my
54:12
clients and for my family that's been a
54:14
big one
54:15
and then quite honestly just the
54:17
heartache of watching my kids
54:19
miss out on some really important rights
54:23
of passage
54:25
during this season and
54:28
that kind of that kind of thing but yeah
54:30
i've had a lot of disruptive sleep too
54:32
but then this might be tmi and you guys
54:34
can take it out but
54:35
i'm like man i'm like disrupted sleep
54:38
i'm
54:38
sweating i've got a rash then i found
54:41
out
54:42
geez i'm in menopause that's what that
54:44
is so
54:45
i was just chalking it all up to the
54:46
pandemic man
54:50
when i started growing a beard and a
54:52
mustache i'm like
54:53
okay i don't think this is stress
54:55
related i think this is something
54:57
different you're amazing so
55:01
i mean of all times to go through that
55:03
for crying out loud
55:05
seriously no one gets to complain about
55:08
20 20 as much as you do jenny
55:10
oh gosh for our dear listeners uh jenny
55:12
heckman is a woman who celebrated her
55:14
40th birthday birthday by
55:16
competing in an ironman competition and
55:19
did you do a marathon for your 50th
55:21
i did the ironman again for my 50th iron
55:23
man again that's right
55:24
i remember working with you when we were
55:26
you were trying to get
55:28
what an animal no more
55:31
no we told our daughter about that this
55:33
today actually because i was talking
55:34
about you
55:35
and she was like she looked like i had
55:38
just told her about some
55:39
horrible torture that that you just
55:42
subjected yourself to
55:43
well and that it is yeah and in theory
55:47
it's a fantastic event
55:49
yeah we'll do a second episode with
55:51
jenny heckman the
55:52
the ironman athlete that you are about
55:55
that experience
55:56
well jenny um you know kyle mentioned
55:59
that you were a pastor i
56:00
see you as still a pastor along with
56:03
your expertise in the
56:04
therapeutic world but i wonder if you
56:07
could you know fully step back into that
56:09
pastor role and just
56:10
speak a word of blessing over our
56:12
listeners who have
56:14
walked through a chaotic crazy year
56:17
and had to endure all sorts of things
56:20
would you just finish our time together
56:22
by just blessing speaking a word of
56:24
blessing over our listeners
56:26
i'd love to and you know you actually
56:28
you didn't know but you gave me a real
56:29
gift
56:30
of validation because when i
56:33
talked with my therapist spiritual
56:36
director
56:36
last week and told her how ungrounded i
56:40
felt
56:41
as a professional what she brought me
56:43
back to is jenny i think it would be
56:45
much more congruent
56:46
and this is a woman who is skilled she
56:49
is
56:50
she's older than i am more experienced
56:52
and one of the most
56:53
professional people i've ever met
56:56
and she said i think it would be so much
56:58
better for you
57:00
to envision the work that you do that
57:02
you are a pastor
57:05
disguised as a therapist that's right
57:07
cleverly disguised as a therapist like
57:09
to bring those two things together so i
57:10
just wanted to say thank you
57:12
thank you for that it's true yeah so i
57:15
think
57:15
the blessing would be that
57:18
by the empowering grace of the lord
57:21
jesus the heavenly father and the holy
57:23
spirit
57:25
may you make room expand your paradigm
57:29
to let all that is good and all that is
57:32
not good
57:33
coexist and trust
57:36
that what is truly joyous truly good
57:41
truly available and sufficient in new
57:44
creation and the reign of christ
57:46
will never be snuffed out by what's not
57:49
good
57:50
and may you embrace your
57:53
unbelievable vocation as a human being
57:57
modeled after the one true human jesus
58:00
to carry out his work his joy
58:04
his goodness his hope among all the
58:06
people and places
58:08
you find yourself in during the pandemic
58:10
and beyond
58:12
amen yes in the name of the father
58:15
and the son and the holy spirit amen
58:18
jenny thank you so much for joining us
58:20
thank you for having me it was a joy so
58:22
fun
58:24
i'm not crying you're crying
58:32
we hope it was as helpful for you as it
58:33
was for us to talk through these things
58:36
to focus in on the anxiety the mental
58:38
health realities and to
58:40
find a center and some health in the
58:42
middle of what's a really stressful year
58:45
if there was something in this episode
58:46
that hit home for you or if there's
58:48
someone on your mind who this would be
58:50
really helpful for
58:51
please share the episode put it on
58:53
social media text it to a friend
58:55
whatever it takes to make it so that
58:56
this important message uh can be shared
58:59
and
59:00
experienced by many don't forget to like
59:02
us on facebook subscribe wherever you
59:04
get your podcasts
59:06
so you'll be on top of all future
59:07
episodes we're looking forward to
59:09
spending more time with you
59:10
thanks for joining us
59:20
[Music]