What Pastors Wish They Could Say

There's a little secret pretty much every pastor has that they can't share with their congregation. Well, actually, a number of secrets. We're not talking about dark and hidden sins (hopefully, at least). We're talking about things your pastor believes or thinks that they don't feel safe enough to share with your church. Pretty much all pastors have beliefs and opinions that they feel passionate about, but if they said them publicly, they'd worry about losing their jobs, or losing a major part of their church. So, they hold these beliefs and opinions in and pretend.

We reached out to a bunch of Evangelical-ish pastors and asked them what they wish they could share with their congregations, but can't. In this episode, we share (anonymously) how these pastors responded. The responses are both fascinating and saddening. We need to do better.

The bourbon we sampled is Smoke Wagon Uncut Unfiltered Bourbon by Nevada H&C Distilling Co.

The beverage tasting is at 5:33. To skip to the main segment, go to 8:44.

You can find the transcript for this episode here.

Content note: this episode contains profanity.

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Transcript

Randy: 0:00

Hey friends, welcome to A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar. We're excited to share this time with you. And I'm excited about this episode had the idea for this episode months ago, and we thought, what if? Yeah, what if we could do this episode? And here we are.

Kyle: 0:18

Yeah, yeah. So the topic today is, what would evangelical pastors say if they could?

Randy: 0:24

Yeah, there are all sorts of conversations that pastors are having. I'm a pastor. And I can tell you that there is a whole lot of things. There are a whole lot of things that pastors believe, thank you, say, doubts, don't believe that they just feel like they can't tell their congregations. Yeah.

Kyle: 0:47

Yeah. And we could easily make this a just sort of pontificating about what pastors wish they could say. And we could probably fill in episode just from your own experience with this. But we thought it would be better to do this a little bit more empirically. So it's not exactly scientific what we did, but we put out some feelers and we asked a bunch of people that we know who are current evangelical pastors, or were evangelical pastors, and are now doing something else in a few cases, and just got their perspective as some questions like, What would you say? If you could What do you feel like you can't say in the context that you're in? What is it like being a evangelical pastor these days? Is it what you want it to be? Is it something different? Just unload on us? And we got more than we bargained for?

Randy: 1:30

We actually thought about bringing in, you know, three, four evangelical pastors and blurring out there are like fuzzing out their voices and blurring out their face like

Kyle: 1:40

the 60 minutes interviews. Yeah, it's just a deep voice and a shadowy

Randy: 1:46

Yeah, we're not going to do that, even though that would be hilarious. But we do have some real thoughts from real pastors,

Kyle: 1:51

and we're gonna keep them anonymous. So

Randy: 1:53

this is a this is an episode that we started out as felt light hearted when we talked about it and thought, wow, that'd be really cool if we could do that. And then all of a sudden, you actually just read through the responses that we got. Yeah. And it gets pretty depressing. Pretty quick, doesn't it? It does.

Kyle: 2:08

Yeah, some some really painful experiences, that people we know had, and not only

Randy: 2:13

painful experiences, but shit that pastors should be able to talk about from a fun, right. Yeah, like this. This is the tragedy of the the American church right now is, we pastors feel like we have to tell our people what they want to hear already. We pastors feel like, in we feel like this, because, honestly, because of the culture in our churches, and by our I mean that very generically, but we feel like we have to tell them what their news sources telling them they should want to hear. We feel like we have to tell them match their politics. And if we step out of that world, even just a little bit, they're our pastor, there's pastor after pastor getting a run out the door of churches in the last year and a half more than ever before. And they're more pastors quitting their jobs, more than ever before, because they can't take it. They can't take the reality that they can't say what they want to say they can't preach the gospel, they can't talk about the kingdom, without being set told that they're too woke or too liberal to whatever it is conservative in some areas, to you know, whatever. It's a depressing situation. And I hope this episode can just awaken something in some of us, because this is these are lots of pastors, lots of churches, we're talking about maybe listeners, one of your churches, when maybe we're going to ask a question, or have a question or response that's from your pastor. Yeah. And the question for that I would love for us all to ask is, What am I doing to create a culture in which my pastor can't say what he wants to say? Or what she wants to say? How, how are we creating this environment in this culture, that we want this very monolithic, very cookie cutter message and words from the pulpit from the front? And if we're challenged by it, if we disagree with it, if it goes against the doctrine or theology that we've been given, we don't want to hear it. And our pastors are scared of bringing that how has this happened?

Kyle: 4:09

Yeah, yeah. So I guess if this had sort of a mission statement, or a goal, this episode, it would be to get listeners who are in churches, which I recognize is not all of you, but to ask yourself, you know, if this were my pastor, am I very confident that they would be honest with me if I were to ask them about it? And if I'm not very confident about that, why not and what is it that I can do to create a space where they would be able to talk about stuff like that? Because I guarantee they want to Yeah, they wish that they could they're telling us that they wish that they could what can you do to create a culture that would encourage that Yep.

Randy: 4:45

And I want to say too, because I know some of these some some of my friends some people I don't know who are pastors are listening, many pastors are listening, and I hope this this episode encourages you guys think else to say some of the stuff you want to say, like there are some things that are worth getting fired over. Truly, there are some things that are worth losing half your church over. And that's the gospel. That's the kingdom that's following Jesus carrying our cross. And I don't want, you know, a dozen churches to shut down to next week when they start saying what they want to say. But I want to just get us thinking pastors, why aren't we saying these things if we know that their kingdom issues? Yeah. So on that note,

Elliot: 5:33

it seems like the theme is that pastors we would be able to share things that are uncut and unfiltered. Oh, it's developing.

Kyle: 5:41

There's a segue that's gonna make sense in a moment, but it's not gonna be any funnier, unfortunately.

Randy: 5:47

All right, Kyle, what are we drinking? Yeah,

Kyle: 5:49

so I have a bourbon for you guys called smoke wagon. Uncut, unfiltered. Sounds scary. Yeah. I told you it wasn't. So this is Randy's favorite trend. As we're familiar with uncut bourbon. I'm gonna read this off the website because I know that you'll love it. The first line is no water added because none is needed.

Randy: 6:13

Well, if the distiller says so. So yes, sir. Yeah, maybe

Kyle: 6:17

there are and I think it's delicious. So I got this from a friend of mine who graciously poured some for us to try here. Yeah, so this comes in at about 115 proof, I think something like that. So it's a it's a heavy hitter. And it's a blended and other blended bourbon. We've been trying to do those recently. And I'm really into them. So there's a high ROI mashbill And this one made in Las Vegas. No

Randy: 6:38

good whiskey comes out of Las Vegas, apparently we'll find out. I got bananas in cinnamon in the nose, perfect liquor esque dessert in the nose.

Kyle: 6:49

Was thinking creme brulee when he said banana. I was like, Yeah, for sure.

Randy: 6:53

Yeah, man. This smells delicious. I just want to keep smelling this. heat builds. I want to hear you guys say nice things about it's almost

Kyle: 7:01

creamy. I don't know if that makes any sense.

Elliot: 7:03

The sweetness of the nose doesn't go away even with the heat. I do like the balance.

Randy: 7:08

It's a little new Mekhi

Kyle: 7:09

Oh, I don't think so. I don't know. I don't believe it has an age statement or anything like that. But it doesn't taste new to me.

Randy: 7:17

The nose is more complex than the the flavor profile for me.

Kyle: 7:22

It says nice viscosity. It's sweet but not overly so.

Randy: 7:27

Got a little scotch notes. Almost. Yeah,

Kyle: 7:29

yeah, I can see a little smoke in there.

Elliot: 7:31

The fruit goes away for me when I sip it. It's it's more dark spicy and smoke. Yeah, a lot of smoke.

Randy: 7:41

i I'll be honest, I help your friend who gave us this isn't listening. I don't love.

Kyle: 7:47

Oh, that's funny. Yeah, I liked it significantly better than I thought it was for bourbon coming out of Nevada.

Elliot: 7:52

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I enjoyed smoke wagons kind of have anything right now because yeah,

Kyle: 7:57

they are they come in at a little higher price point than I would probably be willing to pay for it. But how much I didn't pay for this. How much? You got a bottle? What was your 60? Probably for this? Yeah. So Randy, thumbs down. me thumbs up.

Randy: 8:17

Cool bottle. It hasn't been printed with stamped. It tastes like Las Vegas whiskey.

Kyle: 8:25

I've never been to Las Vegas. I think I know what you mean.

Randy: 8:28

Either vibe, but I think you know, I'm lacking substance. Way more eloquent. Alright, so again, what is this

Kyle: 8:37

smoke wagon? Uncut, unfiltered bourbon,

Randy: 8:40

cheers. I was at this gathering of pastors, church leaders from around the area. And we had a day retreat together as a good time. And there were a couple of things said there that just stuck with me. Two of them I'll share with you. The first was a pastor saying this is during right in the middle of COVID. This is I think probably August or September of 2020. And the first pastor said we have been shocked by the level of discipleship at our church. Another pastor said we've been stunned by how selfish our people are. Just read the middle COVID They're trying to get tend to have summertime services, outdoor services, if you remember we nobody was gathering. It was really rough in at a time when these church leaders would be hoping that their folks would be generous, kind, compassionate, doing what they could to make things hospitable and open and gathering together seeing people instead what they said was we've been stunned by how selfish our people are. And I said, You got to preach a sermon about that. You got to have a sermon series about that. Talking about it and it was just kind of a dead look back at me like I could never do that. I wouldn't have a job and to be Fair some of these pastors are they, they're kind of triage pastors that came in for two years, and they're gonna be ushered out. It's not really their church. For others, they stepped into a culture that they didn't create, right. But some pastors created that and some congregations created those, those cultures. And these are the realities that pastors get to kick back and talk about what they can't talk about. So, with within that reality, let's share some of these responses we got.

Kyle: 10:28

Yeah, yeah. So what we did to collect these responses was just picked a couple standard questions to ask everybody, and send an email blast and just see what we got back. And I think we're both surprised at how easy it was to get responses, like people were, were very forthcoming with their opinions, as you will see, and there's going to be some common themes. And I think we're going to find that what you just said is going to be echoed in a lot of these sentiments. So one response we got back, and I'm just gonna abbreviate some of these here, but there's a lot of good material. So this person says the fact that this is anonymous is so necessary. And the fact that that's necessary, illustrates why I'm so frustrated with the current state of the church and have a hard time knowing who my tribe is. It's the pastor talking, yeah, active pastor. I'm not gonna say who by like, you know, the successful church. One of my biggest difficulties with the current church climate is how much is centered around circling the wagons and protecting us versus them. It's astounding how many times I've heard the same sermon that the world is going to hell in a handbasket because of whatever, pick your poison, but mostly gay and trans folks. Chad's right at home with the series of episodes we just recently released. They go on that mentality is communicated in genteel phrases like speak the truth and love, but the underlying message is detrimental. We're Christ's mission in the world is concerned, it feels to me that much, or even most of the church is at a pretty miserable place as far as accomplishing anything. missional. Yeah, which is how they would define themselves, mostly right? Like if you ask them, in fact, I was just reading a Barna poll from 2020. I believe it was that asked pastors, what do you think is the most pressing issue facing the church right now? And like the number one answer was some version of being missional? Right? How are we reaching the next generation, our reaching the world, whatever, it's still like top of mind for most of these folks. Yeah. And yet, you get them alone. And they'll tell you that all the, you know, all the programming and all the funds are going towards things that probably don't actually accomplish much in the way of missions.

Randy: 12:34

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's almost a different episode for a different day, right? Because I would want to have a conversation about what's your methodology behind what it means to be missional. And I think because I think we're using antiquated methods for event, whether it's evangelism or being missional. People today aren't interested in the Turner burn tactics that used to be happening. And I'm sure this pastor doesn't do that. But I think we got to be a little bit more creative. And I think we got to think a little bit more about our doctrine, and about what we say we believe about who's included, those kinds of things are very missional in my world, because I know that

Kyle: 13:07

I read it as just making the church an attractive place to be for a relatively secularized generation. Yeah, like, what what do we have to offer Djinns ears that would make them want to come here instead of brunch?

Randy: 13:19

That's the question, right? Like, most of our churches are growing because of just people moving around from church to church, they get sick of the messaging and the sermons, they heard them all. And so they're going somewhere else. That's how our churches are growing, if we're honest, I mean, some of us get, you know, we got fun stories and new believers and recovered addicts and all that stuff. But it's the minority, you know, like, really, we need to be having conversations that ask the question, how do we get the nuns and o n e. Nuns into the doors of the church because they're just not interested in this pastor spot on. Like when it comes to mission, we are failing right now. There's a pastor that responded that was talking about ministering at a megachurch, an evangelical megachurch, and this pastor was in an age ministry. Does that make sense? They were in ministry for a particular. Exactly, exactly. And this pastor wanted to preach the scriptures. This pastor was talking about preaching through the Minor Prophets and preaching through the book of Jonah. And when this pastor actually preached the scriptures, talking about God's heart for the poor and the marginalized, talking about God's heart for our enemies, talking about God's heart for creation care, whatever it might be, in this pasture, introduced the practice of Lectio Divina. We all like Lectio Divina, right. It's beautiful. It's brilliant. Yeah. ancient practice of prayer in the in the church and

Kyle: 14:46

like the most innocuous possible way to spend 15 minutes in a Bible study group centering on the scriptures. Yeah, it's literally reading a passage of scripture four times and asking certain questions about it.

Randy: 15:00

Yeah, the lead pastor, the senior pastor of that church heard that this pastor was leading his people through Lectio Divina, and he called them to his office, and literally said he was furious and vowed that this church will never fall into, quote, unquote, postmodern traps. Lectio Divina was seen by the senior pastor of a mega church, even talking like a church as a post modern

Kyle: 15:23

would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Like it literally predates modernism.

Randy: 15:30

So we could talk about anti intellectualism within

Kyle: 15:33

Yeah, maybe we should. Yeah, that's gonna be a huge part of a lot of this, I think is, in fact, I have a I have a statement from pastor that kind of zeroes in on that, and really hits on some of the core stuff that we've covered on our podcast. So this person says, I think that pastors in American evangelicalism are supposed to be confident experts all the time. Yeah. Well, we do not get in trouble if we have the wrong beliefs. Although sometimes you do. In my experience, it's when we admit that we don't really know much about most things, that we don't have a better connection with God, than other people. And that were sort of just guessing like everyone else. It's these moments that trigger parishioners. And interestingly, what I really like about this comment is this person says, liberal and conservative alike. Yeah, so even many progressive Christians, they say, who have left behind their rigid dogma still look to their pastor as someone to hold the weight of their anxiety.

Randy: 16:33

What do you think he means by that? Or she means?

Kyle: 16:35

Well, they cite Paul Tillich sort of clarify what they mean. But I think they mean, they need the pastor to be someone who isn't anxious about the big stuff, right? Or who at least puts up a good show of not being anxious that, you know, I can go to them for confidence, and answers that seem grounded and Sure. And that he's this person says, this makes personal growth and journey and questions, something that most pastors in most contexts have to hide. So that'd be Yeah, that zeroes right in on a lot of what we talked about, there's a kind of implied expertise. And being a pet, especially an evangelical pastor is a kind of dogmatism and certainty is kind of at the core of evangelicalism. It was formed out of literally setting itself against secular expertise, and battening down the hatches and saying, you know, we're going to resist all the liberals, and here's the ground truth that we're going to use to do it. And so, being a pastor in that context, just kind of means knowing more than everybody else. Yeah.

Randy: 17:35

And it's to be perfectly honest, as you're heading into ministry, thinking about ministry, most of the reason that most of us are doing what we're doing is because we sat down, and we listened to a really charismatic dude, lay down this brilliant sermon that blew our doors off, and we thought, yeah, I want to do that. Yeah, like, that's, that's sexy, that's attractive. It's wonderful. It's great in some ways. But that's there's part of the job. That's the attractiveness of the job is that we get to be spiritual authority in people's lives. People listen to us, when I have this role in this title, behind my name on the internet, or on my door, people are going to give me weight and listen to what I say. And I like that. It's called it's strokes, my ego. So we kind of create that culture in some ways. But the reality is, is that we know that if we say I don't know, right, if what if, if, if we say I'm not certain about this thing, that congregants expect us to be certain about, we know that they're going to probably go down the street to the next place where the pastor is certain, quote, unquote, certain people come to us for that all around generalized expertise. And they're used to their pastors coming across as being experts in any given field. And when you don't give that it's a little that's a that's a step of faith to that you can build a culture around that to say, certainty isn't a real reality no matter what. But you got to build to that point where you build a culture that doesn't depend everywhere doesn't depend on you being certain about something or you being the expert, saying, I'm not a biblical scholar, but scholars say, a BNC saying, I'm not a philosopher, but philosophers say XYZ. saying those things is so important because you tear down this facade of expertise. You tear down this facade of certainty. And you get your people to hold mystery and wonder in different ways that all of a sudden build and disciple your people into thinking of God and the universe and reality and humanity in really fun, more true ways. So, these responses came from one person, and I just thought these were just spot on. Things that I wish I could talk about with my church that I can't first one salvation. Is this really about where you go when you die? Or is salvation about more Fully living and saving a lot of pain and heartbreak while you are here. Universalism and heaven and hell, Richard Ward likes to quote a saint who once asked, if you really believed in hell, she responded yes. And then whispered under her breath, it's just that no one will be there. That is very hard to talk about in our current environment, she said, and that was Teresa Vila, biblical inerrancy. Can't we just think of the Bible as our sacred text? Who really cares if it's great scare quotes inerrant, it can stand on its own given the length of time it has survived as a meaningful text. Next one women in leadership. This is not a topic that if you're raising is our elders know where I stand. But yet, we still can't seem to get enough supporters to change our Constitution and allow women elders, we are so far behind the times. And it makes me sad enough that one day it may cause me to resign. And to be fair, we do have women pastors and woman preach regularly. May cause me to resign. Yeah, LGBTQ related issues. Let's be more concerned about love than sex. Love that line. 100 years from now, I'm afraid people will look at our generation of Christians is our generation looks at Christians who supported slavery 150 years ago. I'm afraid this would be a quote fireable offense in our current environment. Next one would be being affirming of LGBTQ

Kyle: 21:18

people. Oh, absolutely, is demonstrably. So. Yeah.

Randy: 21:21

Another next bullet point. Why are so many of us concerned, so concerned with others behavior? That's not something you want your pastor asking. Right. Interesting. I also feel like a leper. Anytime I use the word divine, or divine energy or the universe as substitutes for the word God. Although sometimes they make more sense to me than the word God. Maybe the conversation I'm afraid to have is what do we mean when we use the word God? And is it the same idea as people mean, using other words? Last one, is it possible all roads lead to the same destination?

Kyle: 21:57

Yeah, universalism. This is. Yeah.

Randy: 22:00

This is a pastor of a evangelical church. I would say a kind of conservative Evangelical Church. Yeah. Asking these kinds of questions.

Kyle: 22:09

Yeah. That's yeah, that's incredible. Especially I kind of want to dig into a couple of these the, what do we mean when we use the word God? And is it the same idea? People have in these other words like universe or divine divine energy or something like that? Yeah, I

Randy: 22:28

knew you'd like that one. Yeah, man.

Kyle: 22:30

I appreciate the honesty of this. I wish it could be said out loud, to a congregation without them running out the doors. But I remember my old me, who would have run out the doors. Because, I mean, that's not even theism. Right? It's flirting with not being theism that's maybe maybe universe when they say it means the same thing as God, when we say it.

Randy: 22:57

Yes, I think that's the one. I think it's it has to do with the word slash name, God, that some of us are just kind of tired of that sounds so heretical. Yeah. But I mean, God ends Pete ends, we've had PETA in Zhan, he's wonderful. We all love him if you don't love him, sorry. He tweeted out a while ago and said, I think we need to stop using the word God, it's not helpful anymore. And that doesn't mean that we need to, we need to stop worshipping. this thing we call God, that doesn't mean that we need to stop pursuing the divine life. That doesn't mean that we need to stop acknowledging fill in the blank. It just means that that sometimes that word isn't helpful. Yeah, some pastors think some, some scholars think it's an interesting one. But I, I like the word divine. It's non gendered. When we think of God, we think of an old man with a silver beard, right? When I think of the Divine, I think of the ground of being of all reality. That's Tilak. I think, I think of the life that we're saturated and filled by all the time I think of Colossians. One word, Paul says that Jesus is the one who sustains all things and who is preeminent overall creation. I like the word divine, when we're talking about the divine. Am I Sorry?

Kyle: 24:15

Yeah. Yeah. So sort of the uncharitable interpretation of this, the one that I would have used have had is Oh, my God, this, this person has just left Christian orthodoxy entirely. They're not even a theist anymore. But the charitable interpretation that would get me excited to be in this person's church, if they said this out loud, is, this is very incarnational. Like, let's try to figure out what it is. This is how you'd be missional. If you want to know this, is it like, let's figure out what it is that's already live to the people that we want to reach? And I guarantee you there's something that they're interested in, that we could consider transcendent. Yes, that's more than just their experience that has a deeper meaning. That kind of, I don't know make sense of their life that ties it all together that forms connections for them that other things don't form. There's something that plays that role for them. Let's figure out what they call it. And then let's see in what ways our theology fits, it fills in some of the details or can like sort of conform itself to that. And that's not like to leave behind anything essential. It's not to become non Christian, in some ways, it's to lean into Christianity, because it was always it was always finding out what people needed. And giving yourself to it.

Randy: 25:32

Yeah. I mean, if you're struggling with this, just go read the book of Acts, where Paul, the apostle Paul is talking at Mars Hill, and he talks about the unnamed God that they have idle to, and he's like, Hey, found that guy found that fun like that God. And Paul had no problem using that metaphor and using that kind of language. I mean, what we're talking about, I think the fear is, is that when you talk about the divine or the universe, new agey people or you know, quote, unquote, spiritual people use that language and so we can't borrow that from them. The reality is, is that those terms are way more ancient than New Age, you know, mystical, Bs. The thing for me is those terms expand my view and understanding of God, right? When I use the word divine, or the idea of the divine life, ground of all being, that seems so much profoundly bigger than using this word, God. And I'm not saying I'm going to give up using the word God, it's, it's it's understandable. It's, you know, people understand what you're saying when you say it. But let's not be freaked out when we use words like divine or universal is a little weird. For me. That's, like, even for me, in my world and church world. That'd be a little bit much, I think, probably,

Kyle: 26:44

yeah. But you can I mean, you can see how somebody could walk in off the street and have that in their head is something that really appeals to them. And I mean, you wouldn't have trouble in a one on one conversation with that person connecting what you believe about Jesus to what they believe about the universe. Yeah, you could easily do that. And one on one. Can we do it corporately? Yeah,

Randy: 27:02

yeah. And let's, let's drill into some of what this pastor said about I might leave my I might wind up resigning because of this thing. And that I think there's two things in there. The one is women in leadership. I couldn't be in a complementarian church, I just, I'd rather get a day job. And then but the LGBTQ thing. For me, that became a thing where it's just like, I don't know if I can be in a space, that's not affirming anymore. And I think that's one of the things that broke the camel's back for me. And coming out as affirming was realizing that if I quit my job, if I stopped being lead pastor of British City Church, the next day, I would come out as affirming no doubt. The only thing that's keeping me from it is this role and this expectation, and you know, all of that goes with the responsibilities of it. This thing could come crumbling down if I came out as affirming. Yeah, I think you're going to see more pastors resigning and leaving over things like this than ever before. Yeah. Like I think this pastor, his days are numbered, if his church doesn't affirm women in leadership, and I probably think this pastor, I know him, I think his days are numbered, if if he can't come out as affirming of queer community. That's just the reality. And he's one of many.

Kyle: 28:25

So another big theme in the comments that we got back, not surprisingly, at all was politics. So for example, one pastor former pastor said, there's definitely something I avoid, like the plague politics, I'm hyper vigilant and avoiding any type of discussion or even hint of any political positions. I work with very liberal churches who would find the politics of the Independent Baptist, for instance, anathema and have trouble understanding how it could work with them. And vice versa. It was always an issue, but particularly so over the last three or four years. They say, don't get me wrong, it comes up, especially when you're talking about money. But I find if I offer anything at all beyond a nod or a smile, it poisons everything. Even if I thought it would help with one donor to agree with them. I know it wouldn't take long for that to get around. And for those on the opposite side of the fence to bristle at my presence. It's absolutely toxic.

Randy: 29:17

Yeah, one of my guys said politics, lots of politics. When I asked asked him, What can't you say? And he said, I have to hide my true political opinions as they are so out of line with my congregation slash leadership. Yeah. Now, I intentionally don't know that I've got a pad podcast, the jig is up. But I've tried to intentionally not show my cards politically. And unfortunately, because things like racism and you can fill in the blank has become so political people kind of can consents my politics, but I've tried to stay away from that because I don't want a homogenous church. Right. I don't want a church where people walk into I had one person say one time that I was part of our church, he said when first time walked in the church. I told my wife, I can't go there. There's no Trump supporters here. He literally said that. And I was like, wow. Well, I'm glad you stick around. And he's like, so my, because you guys like this church has been the best church experience of my life. And here's why it's family, bla bla bla. But he felt that right, yeah, I think that says something about the really, really polarized politics of our day that there's so intense that you can set cents, that kind of thing right away. But I don't want a church where somebody can walk in and say, there's no Democrats here. There's no Republicans here. There's, I want people who think differently. I want people who disagree with one another to learn from one another. I genuinely enjoy and value that. And that is becoming something that is just so tenuous, and almost impossible. Yeah. And we lost. We lost people over this pandemic that ghosted us, yeah, that I was wondering why why would they leave, this is a beautiful person that I love. And then I look on Twitter and see them posting non stop political stuff. And I'm like, oh, that's why that's why they left. Yeah. Because if you, if you in my world, and just be this is my world, if I talk about race, too much, people will leave. Or if I talk about God's heart for the oppressed, and God's hatred for injustice and oppression, you know, some people get hot and bothered, you can't really anymore around our church, because it's just a common theme. But I mean, the racial thing, I've got a person who said on here, I used to think that there was nothing that I couldn't talk about really proud of how I can talk about whatever I want to fund in my church. But in these in these last two years, I can't talk about race without making people angry. The reality is that what an urban pastor can say is different than what a rural pastor can or can't say. And suburban is different as well, in this was from a friend who's on the outskirts of the suburbs, into some rural areas. And as pastor says, I often ask why Jesus wouldn't have his disciples buy into concealed carry or shoot anyone for any reason as an individual person, not even as part of the military or law enforcement. So this pastor is, is pastoring in a church environment, where people are literally walking in the doors with, you know, firearms on their hips. And they love the NRA probably give to the NRA more than they give to the church, right? And they love watching their violent movies and they love they, they just are obsessed with war in many cases. And, and then he tries to settle that with the Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount. And he's saying what's going on here? Yeah, he could never say that, right.

Kyle: 32:32

So one person that replied, have a very heart wrenching story of consorted climbing the ranks as a pastor in a mega church, and then being just totally abandoned by church leadership. I say the very heart of pastoring the thing that drew me into ministry in the first place felt like it was completely missing. The shepherding passage from Ezekiel 34 kept coming to mind over and over again. And I knew I was not being a good shepherd of people in that context. The structure was not set up for any of us to be healthy, genuine pastors, and it was destroying my soul. I remember the things I knew I could not say. In that context, I could not point out the blatant sexism I experienced every damn day. I could not address the gossip and slander and favoritism that ran amok in the staff culture. I could not ask the questions I had about hell, and how we taught children and students about it. I cannot question the approach we took in regards to the LGBTQ plus community and the theology behind our actions. I cannot question the way elders were elected, and why all of them fit exactly the same mold, rich white successful in their businesses. I could not say that my soul was weary, hurting exhausted. As I was nearing the end of my time at this mega church, I became bolder and asking questions and pointing out inconsistencies I began to teach high school students that doubt was good, the questions were helpful that Jesus could handle them, not knowing everything. And this is when the pastor overstaffed decided that I really would be a better fit in the care ministry, instead of in a place where I was teaching. So I left with a lot of trauma. And that's so common. Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories exactly like that. Yeah. I mean, this is exactly the kind of person you want to be a pastor in your church. Yeah, the kind who is not only totally committed to the people in their care, but it's trying their damnedest to be committed to the leadership, and to being loyal to the leadership, even when it costs them personally to do so. And this person wasn't, it wasn't that they had a disagreement, and they got in a huff, and they left. They were like, beaten down until they were driven out because they couldn't psychologically do it anymore. Like, this is the kind of culture that we've built in our churches where the very kind of people we should want there can't survive. The

Randy: 34:38

answer is long term. And

Kyle: 34:41

I'm not a pastor and I, you know, speak very hesitantly about what any pastor should do without knowing their specific context. But at a certain point, you have to decide what kind of church are willing to be a pastor of like what it means to you to be a pastor in service of Jesus Christ, not just in service of a cultural institution. We're in American civil religion, but a pastor of Jesus. And I mean, that implies some things. Yeah, we've we've talked a lot about what we think church and Christianity looks like. We've talked a lot about it being difficult, and not the sort of thing that fits neatly into a three point, you know, alliterative sermon with a nice altar call at the end. I mean, it's something that really thoughtful people who have dedicated their whole lives to trying to do it have given up on because it's just too hard. Yeah. And if you want to be a pastor in that tradition, you got to make some hard decisions, or be honest about what else it is you're doing.

Randy: 35:43

I want to have real conversations with pastors, friends, and acquaintances and people that I haven't met yet about, what if we banded together? Instead of I might get fired for this? But how about we take a stand together? And we just say, this is the gospel. This is what Jesus looks like, this is what the gospel looks like, and we're not going to pull our punches anymore. I'll bet there's a group of people who would love to hear pastors talk like that.

Kyle: 36:09

Yeah. And yeah, that that kind of movement would find enough people to have a new church in almost every part of the country. I mean, there'll be some places where it would be difficult. But that kind of courage, I think, would be rewarded with some interested people. Yeah,

Randy: 36:25

one of our last directions. But here's a different direction. two perspectives. One says, I want to talk about how Sunday morning gatherings can actually be one of the biggest barriers to discipleship that exists today. And we spend way more time than we should be on Sunday mornings than on actually discipling people. super interesting. And then another one that you kind of referenced, I just had this conversation yesterday. And this pastor friend of mine said, Do you ever wonder if we're actually changing anything? Do you ever wonder if like, the way we're doing things, creating programs, and all this Sunday mornings, and all the rigmarole that we do? Do you ever wonder if it's actually creating disciples at all? He's like, I know why I'm doing it right now. Because I got a $3 million mortgage to pay off. Yeah. And I can't like short circuit, that thing, I can't do what I want to do. Because we would default on our loan, because I would lose a bunch of people, if I actually stripped it down and said, We're gonna do do this in a different way. Pastors are asking these questions. And these are, these are pastors of mostly conservative, evangelical, suburban, slash suburban rural churches that are saying, maybe the model even, that we're going after, and that we're putting ourselves to and we're paying our staff to move towards. Maybe that's maybe this isn't working, actually. But I have to keep doing it. Because I want to pay the bills. I have to keep doing it. Because I don't want to be responsible for a bunch of people not having a job.

Kyle: 37:57

Yeah, that's right. And I'm, I'm sympathetic with that. Yeah, I've. And in certain moods, I think that's, you can be a person of integrity. And be honest with yourself, and consider yourself some kind of project manager, and beholden to your investors, and sleep easily at night doing that kind of job. It's just, there's anything Christian about it. There's probably something Antichrist about it. If we want to like dig, dig deep into the capitalist system that's based on but like, yeah, there's being a successful steward of wealthy people's resources. And then there's being a follower of Jesus. And I have very little in common. And, yeah, I think it's totally fine to do either one. But doing both at the same time is quite difficult.

Randy: 38:50

Some of us got into this, because we liked the sound of our own voice and our ego stroked, but most of us got into this because we fucking love the church. Like we just are in love with this idea of the Body of Christ, transforming communities and neighborhoods and cities. And you know, you name it, we were just obsessed by it. Like I did this job for the first four or five years getting paid nothing, working a full time job and a job that I hated. And writing sermons and meeting with people on my lunches and doing all the side hustle that night, because it just couldn't help myself. I was so in love with it. And I asked this of Pastor friends pretty regularly. Would you still do this for free? And if not, and sometimes I have pause like sometimes I like I'm not sure. Because I got four kids. Yeah. But if the answer is no, let's stop and reflect. Because the church's way about way more than putting food on my table, that's gonna get taken care of, I'll figure it out. But if we are beholden to the system, that's depriving discipleship. At the body of Christ, we're at a crisis moment for beholding to a system that has CRT witch hunts. And we can't talk about race for beholden to a system in which we can't affirm people for just loving one another. If we're beholden to that system, it's going to run out of gas. Like in the needles on E. I think we're not far from that thing running out of gas. We got to do something and here's the deal friends, you friends, who your listeners who aren't pastors, raise their voices if you agree with this stuff. If you're if this resonates deeply within you if this is if you're kind of horrified. But some of these stories, speak up. Because if we actually had churches that said, we want to talk about the heart stuff, we want to think about how we gather and is it nurturing discipleship, it we want to be able to talk about oppression and injustice, we want to talk about these things. Your pastors will listen like if you give us if you give them permission, they will go there. For sure. It can't be the silent minority anymore. We need to raise our voices and ask for a better level of conversation and discourse than we currently have in our churches in America.

Kyle: 41:15

Well, that's it for this episode of A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar. We hope you're enjoying the show as much as we are. Help us continue to create compelling content and reach a wider audience by supporting us at patreon.com/apastorandaphilosopher, where you can get bonus content, extra perks, and a general feeling of being good person.

Randy: 41:35

Also, please rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, iTunes, and Spotify. These help new people discover the show and we may even read your review in a future episode. If it's good enough.

Kyle: 41:46

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Randy: 41:55

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